Ok now this one has me chuckling

[FunkyZero]

I wonder if they realize what would be left if the "Red States" left the union?
Isn't that kind of like cutting the apple off of a rotten spot?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10028389227

Wed Dec 21, 2016, 07:40 PM

Star Member TheFrenchRazor (693 posts)

Would you personally be willing to take up arms to prevent red states from seceding?
This is not flame bait, i would really like serious, considered responses to this question. Reason i ask is that it appears obvious that most dems here do not support any blue state secession, and quite a few people believe it would result in civil war. To me, this is hard to understand, because i couldn't care less if some red states wanted to secede; i would say, "fine, don't let the door hit you in the ass on the way out." i most certainly would not be willing to go to war to stop them.

Many people make reference to our civil war, as if it would be a guaranteed repeat of that, but it seems possible that given this past experience, people might be less willing to go to war over this again. i don't know, that's why i'm asking. i do realize of course that any result obtained here will have to multiplied by a certain factor, given conservatives greater propensity to get involved in pointless wars, especially if they don't have to actually fight themselves.

don't really want this to turn into a thread on the pros and cons of secession, because we have plenty of those already.

i may not be able to address responses to this thread right away, but i will as soon as possible.

15 votes, 0 passes | Time left: Unlimited
yes, i would personally be willing to fight to stop red states from leaving.
1 (7%)
no, i would not personally be willing to fight, but i would support sending the military to stop them.
2 (13%)
i would support letting them go peacefully, and try to establish good relations with their new country.
2 (13%)
i would support letting them go peacefully, but would want heavy sanctions imposed.
7 (47%)
other (please specify).
3 (20%)
0 DU members did not wish to select any of the options provided.
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Response to TheFrenchRazor (Original post)

Wed Dec 21, 2016, 07:51 PM

Star Member uponit7771 (37,510 posts)
6. OTHER: Ask me in about 6 months.... I'm not too good right now on that answer

[thundley4]

i would support letting them go peacefully, but would want heavy sanctions imposed.
7 (47%)
other (please specify).

Which is exactly what should be done to California. No more free water from the US watershed. Cut all power lines crossing the border.

[diesel driver]

Which is exactly what should be done to California. No more free water from the US watershed. Cut all power lines crossing the border.

Let them take Washington and Oregon with them...

Good riddance!

[thundley4]

Let them take Washington and Oregon with them...

Good riddance!

We need to keep one for access to the Pacific.

[diesel driver]

We need to keep one for access to the Pacific.

We have Canada.   

[I_B_Perky]

Star Member TheFrenchRazor (693 posts)

Would you personally be willing to take up arms to prevent red states from seceding?
This is not flame bait, i would really like serious, considered responses to this question. Reason i ask is that it appears obvious that most dems here do not support any blue state secession,

Really?  Perhaps you should go here:  http://www.democraticunderground.com/10028380818

eniwetok (545 posts)

Should California Threaten Secession To Abolish Electoral College?

Last edited Mon Dec 19, 2016, 08:56 PM - Edit history (1)
PROBLEM 1: The standard for morally legitimate government was best summed up in the Declaration Of Independence:

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.-- That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness."

The Electoral College system now twice in 16 years has imposed on the nation a president who was REJECTED by the People. The EC makes a mockery of the very concept of self-determination. Like Bush2, Trump will do immense damage to the nation and further entrench the power of a toxic GOP into the fabric of government.

PROBLEM 2: The EC is unlikely to ever be abolished constitutionally. The GOP has a well documented contempt for democracy and now that the EC has a clear GOP bias, no proposed amendment will ever get out of Congress. In the Senate a mere 18% of the US population gets 52% of the seats.

PROBLEM 3: Even if a proposed amendment made it out of Congress... states with as little as 4% of the US population can block any reform. The Popular Vote interstate pact is a clever workaround but it is unlikely to ever become reality and the first time a state has to vote against its own election results, there will be a revolt in that state to leave the pact. The only solution is to abolish the EC not put bandaids over it.

QUESTION: How do citizens reform a system that is both antidemocratic and virtually reformproof? One can imagine a 50-100 year campaign to overcome all the obstacles. But how many more morally illegitimate presidents will be imposed on the nation in that time determined to make reform more difficult?

PROPOSAL: I can think of no way to reform the system internally. If you can... I'd like to hear it. The only way I can envision the EC being abolished is if a state like California threatens secession unless democratic reforms are made to the Constitution... thus creating a constitutional crisis.

See the thread here, dummie:

https://conservativecave.com/home/index.php?topic=111007.0

[Mr Mannn]

Like all the other DUmmies dreams this one will fail too.

[I_B_Perky]

We have Canada.   

We would just have to wait about two years until mexifornia would be begging us to take them back.  Think about it... no fed government picking up medicaid payments, welfare, etc.  Their taxes would go thru the roof and all the hollyweirders would leave.

Personally I say Bye, Bye!!! And tell them that we ain't gonna protect you either.  Create your own military. We be happy to sell you the equipment. Training too... for a fee.  Want water? Well that gonna cost you. Electricity? Same deal. Gasoline and oil? Same deal.

Mexifornia would be Greece inside of two years and all the mexicans would be leaving post haste once they figure out that there is no more free shit.  Then all the rest of the denizens would actually have to work for a living.

I say have at it!

[SSG Snuggle Bunny]

Let them take Washington and Oregon with them...

Good riddance!

No.

These generations-long anti-American POSs don't deserve a millimeter of US soil.

[FunkyZero]

I'm not sure why it would matter. Within a year, they would be sneaking across the border into Idaho.

[jukin]

Little kids believe in Santa Claus.
Leftists believe in socialism.

Both for the same reasons.

FUN FACT: The PRoC has more people on FEDERAL programs than any state. Approximately 30% of that budget goes to the PRoC.

[Patriot Guard Rider]

Let them take Washington and Oregon with them...

Good riddance!

They can keep the western coasts of Oregon and Washington. We'll take the eastern portions.

[Dblhaul]

They can keep the western coasts of Oregon and Washington. We'll take the eastern portions.

From the Cascades east we will keep the fishing, the hunting, the farms and the lifestyle.
If you look at how the counties vote you will see that eastern OR and WA are all red.

[freedumb2003b]

No.

These generations-long anti-American POSs don't deserve a millimeter of US soil.

Let them secede but tell them the LAND has to stay with the USA.

[Movie buff- The Sequel]

Really?  Perhaps you should go here:  http://www.democraticunderground.com/10028380818

See the thread here, dummie:

https://conservativecave.com/home/index.php?topic=111007.0

Beat me to it!
Hypocritical morons were talking about Cali seceding earlier THAT VERY DAY!

[Fourwinds]

Given the current number of red states to blue, if the states were to secede, we would still be the U.S.

Then we could embargo the few blue states and strangle them into submission in order to bring them back into the fold.

[BadCat]

This pretty much sums it up...

[Fourwinds]

This pretty much sums it up...

Nice lol. Good luck to them I say.

[SVPete]

This pretty much sums it up...

Looking at the part of CA that went for The SHREW-CHILL, if just they seceded they'd have plenty of weed and wine (though the vote in the former region was close), and plenty of movies. It includes the Salinas Valley, which should make the vegan-tarians happy, and some dairy. Grain? Nope. Meat? Cotton? Wool? Hydroelectric power? Adequate water? Lumber? Nope, nope, nope, nope, and nope; lumber is doubtful, courtesy of the Enviros.

The Oregonian "islands" are interesting - Portland and Eugene areas. Not Salem, the capital. Not Medford, the 2nd or 3rd largest city. Not the agricultural or timber areas.

[FunkyZero]

Looking at the part of CA that went for The SHREW-CHILL, if just they seceded they'd have plenty of weed and wine (though the vote in the former region was close), and plenty of movies. It includes the Salinas Valley, which should make the vegan-tarians happy, and some dairy. Grain? Nope. Meat? Cotton? Wool? Hydroelectric power? Adequate water? Lumber? Nope, nope, nope, nope, and nope; lumber is doubtful, courtesy of the Enviros.

The Oregonian "islands" are interesting - Portland and Eugene areas. Not Salem, the capital. Not Medford, the 2nd or 3rd largest city. Not the agricultural or timber areas.

The most troubling part of looking at these distribution maps to someone like myself is the demographic makeup of those areas.
Not all, but a large portion of those areas are made up of high percentages of voters who are pretty new to America.
A lot of them do not place the same level of value on the traditional cultures that paint the face of us as a people and society.
I've always said, we are literally being invaded and we are.
Whether you call such a large cultural shift good or bad is of course founded in personal opinion. But is IS happening.
I have a problem with it, personally. I am a proponent of assimilation, not multiculturalism.
It has it's place and it's a good thing at the family level in a lot of respects, but as a nation, our basic principles need to remain as they always have. It's aggravating to see people "flee" another country only to come here anticipating we change the system to be more like the places they ran away from.
Maybe I just have early onset grumpy old man syndrome.

[SVPete]

As you say, "not all", but there's a lot of of that territory that reflects immigration - legal and illegal - from Central and South America (via Mexico). And it's possible that some of the CHILL factor in the Silicon Valley and Sea-Tac area reflects immigration by tech workers from Asia (an over-simplification, but one that has a lot of reality). Thing is, Asian cultures tend to be pretty conservative, and Hispanics tend to be heavily Catholic. As they learn what the D Party actually stands for many of those people could turn against the D Party.

[Adam Wood]

i would support letting them go peacefully, but would want heavy sanctions imposed.
7 (47%)

Just exactly what "sanctions" do they think they're going to be able to impose upon red states?

Prevent red-staters from going to see shows on Broadway?  Ban L.A. ganja sales to red states?  Tariffs on low-riders?  Bar red-staters from San Francisco bath houses?  What?  What on earth could they possibly do that any red-stater would give a tinker's damn about?