http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=214x179974Oh my.
One thought perhaps the nocturnally foul one might be at this bonfire, but alas no.
Az Donating Member (1000+ posts) Sat Jul-26-08 01:21 PM
Original message
The right to oppose religion and belief
There is a right for people to believe and promote their belief. But so to is there a right to oppose a belief and declare it wrong. Otherwise all manner of nonsense would spread unopposed. And contained within the right to believe and promote one's belief is the inherent right to believe that others are wrong and to say so.
Opposition does not mean disrespect however. As we live in a diverse society with a multitude of cultures, religions, and creeds it is necessary for the peace of society that respect to one another be given. But this does not remove the right to say to another that you believe their belief is wrong. In fact this right is vital for dialog to continue.
It is not disrespect to say to another that you believe their cherished beliefs are wrong.
Predictably, it's a very large bonfire, the primitives acting like a convention of village idiots trying to explain, and agree upon, the sizing of women's shoes in Burma.
Occam Bandage Donating Member (1000+ posts) Sat Jul-26-08 01:25 PM
Response to Original message
1. Opposition does not entail disrespect, true.
At the same time, opposition is not incompatible with disrespect.
defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Sat Jul-26-08 01:28 PM
Response to Reply #1
3. Whoa . . . no religion can demand our "respect" . . .
That pretty much sets the debate; primitive comments selected at random:
defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Sat Jul-26-08 06:31 PM
Response to Reply #6
20. That's different . . . that's human respect --- holding the door for one another ,etc.
... but no one's religion can demand our respect ---
defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Sat Jul-26-08 01:27 PM
Response to Original message
2. Note that it is Separation of Church & State which gives this highest of privileges . . .
the right to free thought, the right to personal conscience and free will ---
and when this separation if attacked, this highest privilege is under attack!
Our freedoms begin there . . .
But I have to disagree with you re "respect."
No religion can demand our respect --- rather I think we have to be laughing more at religion!
WHEN RELIGION IS BROUGHT OUT INTO THE PUBLIC ARENA AS IS HAPPENING SO MUCH THESE DAYS . . . .
then it is open to challenge and questioning --
and we need much more of it --- !!!
defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Sun Jul-27-08 06:07 PM
Response to Reply #38
52. No . .. religion has no right to plaster its crosses or its commandments ...
in the public areas --- on public lands ---
No one's practice of their religion is dependent upon having their religious artifacts on display on public land ---
Religion has no right to a "place" in the public arena ---
You are hear speaking of religious issues --- that is not a guaranteed "place" it is a matter of free speech ---
What I have said is, when people bring their personal religious beliefs into the public arena for discussion they must expect that their religion may be questioned and challenged.
There are a few ways to interpret "public arena" and "public" and "public areas" . . .
When I am speaking of religious articles put on display, I am talking of government buildings and town properties.
Otherwise, a website like this is a "public" area where discussion of any subject is entertained --- but you have to expect your comments/beliefs may also be challenged.
defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Sun Jul-27-08 11:14 PM
Response to Reply #54
59. We seem to be on some kind of a merry-go-round here . . .
I say something --- you agree ---
and then you alter what was said ---
In PUBLIC is quite clear --- it needs little explanation --- it's the opposite of private.
But I'm glad to see that you are against any religion - or members of a religion -- pushing to have their commandments on display, or Nativity scenes, etal ---
Many have been doing that.
Religion has a place in public discussion just as any other subject has ---
HOWEVER, for those who may be sensitive to criticism, I've pointed out that when one's personal beliefs about religion are brought out in PUBLIC then they have to expect that their beliefs about religion may be open to challenge and questioning.
Religion, as a subject, however, does not demand any more "respect" than any other subject.
In fact, there used to be an old saying that I think has done great harm to Americans ---
i.e., "Don't discuss politics or religion in polite society..."
Americans rarely spoke of politics and rarely of religion, IMO ---
and it made us very dumb.
I'm quite happy to see religion no longer a taboo subject ---
defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Sat Jul-26-08 01:29 PM
Response to Original message
4. I think, perhaps, you want to suggest that there is no need to be personally vile to people in the public arena --- I think that's true in all situations -- having nothing to do with religion.
Hopefully, we always treat each other with human respect ---
HOWEVER, that does not include on demand "respect" for anyone's religion --- !!!
defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Sat Jul-26-08 06:38 PM
Response to Reply #12
23. Actually that "conversion" business was evidently re upped by the RCC . . .???
and became again part of the teachings . . . ????
It dissappeared for a long while ---
but it is a big part of Evangelicalism -- Mormons are wild on it ---
and the Pope is supposedly heading the RCC to Evangelicalism . . . dum de dum dum ---
defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Sun Jul-27-08 12:21 AM
Response to Reply #29
34. Obviously they consider only themselves to be right ---
Never heard of the Institute for Religon and Democracy --- Democracy???? ---
... but are you saying that they are penetrating your churches?
or that they've always been part of them?
And who is funding them?
defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Sun Jul-27-08 11:38 PM
Response to Reply #42
63. In some respects you're correct . . .
However, not really -- I'm aware of the organizations which fought the religious right --
one or two of them were religiously based.
However, I see no uprising in the Catholic Church publickly opposing the right wing ---
in fact, IMO, the Pope before this one was CIA . . . !!!
I see no general uprising in let's say the Methodist Church to openly oppose the religious right.
Not until Rev. Jim Wallis as far as I know has there been any organized resistance to the religious right ---
And, I would suggest that among Protestant churches there are feverish anti-abortion groups --
So -- I hope you're right ---
defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Sat Jul-26-08 06:34 PM
Response to Reply #5
21. "Faith" is the end all ---
... but they don't like to hear that faith is not fact ---
Nor the true history of these religious myths ---
and the effort to use "writings" of a one-all male god to cement the patriarchy ---
There's lots and lots more, ho-hum.
You know, I could be wrong, as I've been wrong before, but I suspect the defenestrating primitive is the neighborhood eccentric, where he lives, the old guy who doesn't get along with anybody?
