The Conservative Cave
Current Events => The DUmpster => Topic started by: thundley4 on October 29, 2014, 05:30:50 PM
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upaloopa (4,784 posts) Wed Oct 29, 2014, 04:58 PM
I was shocked comparing my wife's 401K to my
defined benefit plan.
My wife has 73% more money saved in her 401K than I do in my defined benefit plan. But if she and I were to get monthly payments from our plans starting today I would be paid 63% more per month than she would get. That is because I am in a union and all union members contribute to the pot that is invested to generate the payout. Both our employers contribute to our plans but my wife is the sole employee contributing to her retirement savings. I have my union brothers and sisters contributing to mine and the whole pot is invested together. My wife has only her contribution and her employer's contribution to earn dividends on.
If we want a middle class and a better retirement we need to organize and demand better benefits.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10025727411
Those defined benefit plans are much like social security, they depend on getting more and more people to contribute to support the current retirees drawing on the "shared pot".
That is the main reason that unions are so desparate to get new members, by hook or by crook.
NightWatcher (25,599 posts)
1. My Garbage Pail Kid cards didn't turn into the investment I had hoped for.
So if the Beanie Babies don't work out, I'm hosed.
You're just another typical union thug, getting together with other union thugs to make deals with business owners so you won't get played against each other in an effort to drive down wages and benefits. (Do I need the sarcasm thingee?)
badtoworse (5,602 posts)
3. You should provide more information if you intend for people to make an informed judgment.
How long and how much has she been contributing? Is there an employer match and how much is it? What has she invested in?
My wife and I will get the bulk our retirement income from our 401k's and we will do very well. We've both held a number of jobs in our careers and the 401k portability HSS been great benefit.
401k's and private retirement accounts are for people that think ahead, not for DUmmies.
Star Member upaloopa (4,784 posts)
6. I have been employed by my employer for 7 years
she has over 10 years. My point is that I will get more than I put in and she will get
only what she put in.
Mine is for life hers is until it is gone. And she will get 60% of mine for life after I die.
7 years? That DUmmie needs to check the facts of his benefits. Someone is lying to him about his wealth to come.
Nothing else there, that's the thread so far.
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Star Member upaloopa (4,784 posts)
6. I have been employed by my employer for 7 years
she has over 10 years. My point is that I will get more than I put in and she will get
only what she put in.
Mine is for life hers is until it is gone. And she will get 60% of mine for life after I die.
Yea, not much can go wrong with this brilliant strategy. :argh:
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Yet they can`t even begin to fathom why that bankrupts a company.
It is hard to imagine how stupid these people truly are.
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The real truth eventually comes out.
Response to upaloopa (Original post)
Wed Oct 29, 2014, 06:01 PM
Adrahil (1,942 posts)
17. I'd be untested in seeing the numbers behind this.
A lot of defined benefits plans are paid for by assuming the number of younger workers contributing is always increasing. In this way, the pensions paid can be more generous than what the retiree's own contributions would justify. The problem is that with people living longer,mans union membership shrinking, I wonder what the projected solvency date is? Corporations can contribute, of course, but corporations can also go bankrupt. About 10 years ago, I was looking for a new job. One company offered a 401k and the other a defined benefit. I was tempted to go with the defined benefit, but I suspected it couldn't last. And I was right. 3 years ago, they cancelled the plan, and gave those who had it a CRAPPY buy out, and conversion to a 491k equal to 1.5% of their salary during employment. Wow. Glad I did not do that.
Response to Adrahil (Reply #17)
Wed Oct 29, 2014, 06:08 PM
upaloopa (4,785 posts)
18. I work for county government. Our work force remains
pretty steady. Two years ago we went to a two tiered system. New hires have a different formula than we do. Their plan is a mix of 401K and pension. I am not too sure what it is but they will have a less generous payout.
We take a lower pay scale to get the pension. But over time private sector pay and benefits have fallen below ours. The bosses want the working class to fight among each other over things like this taking us all to the bottom.
When I started working 40 years ago most everyone had a defined benefit plan.
You depend on tax dollars and even then it can`t sustain the system so was changed.
****ing idiots to the very core.
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That is because I am in a union and all union members contribute to the pot that is invested to generate the payout.
Remind me again why these ****tards insist you and I cannot divest from SS and invest in our own retirement accounts.
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Remind me again why these ****tards insist you and I cannot divest from SS and invest in our own retirement accounts.
Do public employees even pay into SS?
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Do public employees even pay into SS?
Yes, ma'am. Creatures like poopaloopa effectively double-dip because they live in kleptocracies like the PRC. It not only gets SS but a defined, taxpayer-guaranteed retirement. If they were as generous as they pretend they would be taxed at a higher rate/forfeit SS because they make a guaranteed 8% ROI...twice the historic rate normal people might make in actual real-life investments.
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I'm part of the greatest pyramid scheme ever devised by man.....SocSec.
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Do public employees even pay into SS?
Federal employees such as postal workers don`t as far as I know as there is a separate federal system outside SS.
Can only speak for NY but the state retirement system here includes school and local municipality workers and has been at times a monstrosity.
If the required reserve that has to be maintained to meet theoretical legacy payments has a shortfall for any reason each county or school district gets essentially a per employee bill that has to be paid to make up the difference.
Since these are funded primarily by property taxes it can lead to increases of 30-50% from one year to the next.
That usually creates a near riot situation so they take to cheating on budget items such as SS to slowly build a reserve and the tax increase becomes more like the slowly boiling frog analogy.
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Those defined benefit plans are much like social security, they depend on getting more and more people to contribute to support the current retirees drawing on the "shared pot".
They're also based on wildly-optimistic assumptions about the returns on their investment portfolios, which have not been borne out by history over the long term.
And, of course, they're based on the workforce demographics in narrow sectors of the economy, so are extremely subject to sea changes in particular industries that drastically transform the unionized workforce downward in relatively short periods of time, which relates to your point.
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They're also based on wildly-optimistic assumptions about the returns on their investment portfolios, which have not been borne out by history over the long term.
On Neil Cavuto's show today, he said the Federal Reserve is going to stop it's bond buying this month. I wonder what that will do to the stock market.
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Response to Adrahil (Reply #17)
Wed Oct 29, 2014, 06:08 PM
upaloopa (4,785 posts)
18. I work for county government. Our work force remains
pretty steady. Two years ago we went to a two tiered system. New hires have a different formula than we do. Their plan is a mix of 401K and pension. I am not too sure what it is but they will have a less generous payout.
We take a lower pay scale to get the pension. But over time private sector pay and benefits have fallen below ours. The bosses want the working class to fight among each other over things like this taking us all to the bottom.
When I started working 40 years ago most everyone had a defined benefit plan.
The real truth eventually comes out.
You depend on tax dollars and even then it can`t sustain the system so was changed.
****ing idiots to the very core.
Yet the DUmmies refuse to see the truth about Social Security.
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On Neil Cavuto's show today, he said the Federal Reserve is going to stop it's bond buying this month. I wonder what that will do to the stock market.
It's a good thing. Be a long-term investor and it doesn't matter. I would rather have a solid market foundation than the govt. manipulated one of the past 6 years.
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It's a good thing. Be a long-term investor and it doesn't matter. I would rather have a solid market foundation than the govt. manipulated one of the past 6 years.
There will be a big correction in the markets when they do announce that.
The sad thing is , is that almost all of Obama's policies have kept the various markets on artificial rallies or highs. From the housing market, to cars to the stock market, none ever hit their natural bottom.
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Quote
That is because I am in a union and all union members contribute to the pot that is invested to generate the payout.
Remind me again why these ****tards insist you and I cannot divest from SS and invest in our own retirement accounts.
:hi5:
(http://images.forbes.com/media/lists/53/2007/TVP0.jpg)
BAM!!!!!
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Yes, ma'am. Creatures like poopaloopa effectively double-dip because they live in kleptocracies like the PRC. It not only gets SS but a defined, taxpayer-guaranteed retirement. If they were as generous as they pretend they would be taxed at a higher rate/forfeit SS because they make a guaranteed 8% ROI...twice the historic rate normal people might make in actual real-life investments.
Some do at a much decreased payout. Federal Civil Service Wage Grades (WG) didn't pay in and do not draw out. I believe regular Civil Service (GS) do. They're two different systems left over from the 50's. Good friend around the lakehore from me was State employed in Alaska. He has an excellent annuity plan and does draw Social Security, but it's only about $300.00/mo.
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Quote from: Carl on October 29, 2014, 06:18:52 PM
The real truth eventually comes out.
You depend on tax dollars and even then it can`t sustain the system so was changed.
****ing idiots to the very core.
(http://fc03.deviantart.net/fs71/i/2011/044/d/8/broken_record_by_brokenchar-d39gjga.jpg)
Tax the Rich! .....elEBinTY!!! Tax the Rich! .....elEBinTY!!! Tax the Rich! .....elEBinTY!!! Tax the Rich! .....elEBinTY!!!Tax the Rich! .....elEBinTY!!! Tax the Rich! .....elEBinTY!!!. . . . .
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There will be a big correction in the markets when they do announce that.
The sad thing is , is that almost all of Obama's policies have kept the various markets on artificial rallies or highs. From the housing market, to cars to the stock market, none ever hit their natural bottom.
One other thing (which is hilarious to me) the way that they've been forcing interest rates so low has hurt who the most? The poor. They are the least likely to profit from huge market gains since they have very little exposure to the stock market. What they do have exposure to are bank CDs, and savings/checking accounts where a better rate of return would benefit them greatly. We took advantage of home refis several times whenever the interest rates would drop, not too many poor people could afford to do that either. Why does Obama hate the blue collar worker?
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Some do at a much decreased payout. Federal Civil Service Wage Grades (WG) didn't pay in and do not draw out. I believe regular Civil Service (GS) do. They're two different systems left over from the 50's. Good friend around the lakehore from me was State employed in Alaska. He has an excellent annuity plan and does draw Social Security, but it's only about $300.00/mo.
The old Federal civil service retirement system (Known as CSRS) ended for new entrants in the 80s. Under it, retirees got neither SS nor Medicare, but had a fairly high defined benefit retirement pay using a formula similar to, but slower-increasing over the years after basic eligibility, than the military retirement system of the time.
Since then, all new Federal civil service is under the current FERS plan, which has a much smaller defined benefit portion and formula, a 401K-like system called 'Thrift Savings Plan' , or TSP (Under a somewhat nonlinear formula, an employee can contribute up to 5% of his or her basic pay, and the government will match that; the employee can put in up to 5% more on his or her own that will not be matched). The lower defined benefit (1% of basic pay per year of service, basically) is compensated by FERS retirees being eligible for SS and Medicare, full taxes for which are collected from their pay throughout their career.
TSP is somewhat lamer than a great many private-sector 401Ks, there are six investment options ranging from an extremely-low-return Federal bond fund to the most aggressive of the six, which is simply an S&P index fund; while you can change your allocation from one fund to another, you are only allowed two changes a month, so it is very difficult (Though not entirely impossible) to act on sudden and drastic changes in the stock market if you opt for the most aggressive available strategy - hopping back and forth between the S&P index fund for the peaks and the safe harbor of the Federal bond fund for the valleys.
I recommend that nobody rely on anything said about these systems on the various business channels, including FBN, because it is abundantly clear from listening to them that none of the commentators have taken the time to study and comprehend how these systems work and the differences between them. They also do not seem to have a clue that they are different from most State, municipal, and school system retirement plans. Nearly all of what the supposedly-smart financial talking heads have to say about them is ideologically-based garbage.
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On Neil Cavuto's show today, he said the Federal Reserve is going to stop it's bond buying this month. I wonder what that will do to the stock market.
(http://www.monroegallery.com/views/images/showcase/Hindenburg.jpg)