The Conservative Cave
Current Events => The DUmpster => Topic started by: Carl on September 06, 2014, 12:04:55 PM
-
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10025487267
Thu Sep 4, 2014, 09:23 AM
Omaha Steve (42,235 posts)
Do you think the Federal minimum wage should be $15 per hour?
259 votes, 2 passes | Time left: 27 days, 22 hours, 48 minutes
YES Get these workers out of the poverty level and off public assistance!!!
215 (83%)
NO
17 (7%)
NO because my $1 menu item might go up a nickle
2 (1%)
NO because that just ain't right
0 (0%)
Other please explain
3 (1%)
undecided
1 (0%)
Just HELL YES!
19 (7%)
YES because I would get a raise
2 (1%)
2 DU members did not wish to select any of the options provided.
:yawn:
Let the stupidity begin.
Response to randome (Reply #1)
Thu Sep 4, 2014, 06:01 PM
delete_bush (1,548 posts)
41. It would certainly be a boost for the housing market
Linda and Paul somehow managed to get their high school diplomas, but just didn't have the desire (nor the grades, finished in the bottom 20% of their class) to further their education.
Instead, they're both going to work for Burger King, where their combined income of $60,000 will allow them to purchase a 4 bed, 3.5 bath, 2,710 sq ft house like this...
picture of a house listed at 300,000.00
Yeah,right. ::)
Response to Omaha Steve (Original post)
Thu Sep 4, 2014, 09:30 AM
merrily (8,029 posts)
3. I voted yes.
However, understand as well that employers are not going to take a hit when the minimum wage increases. They are going to pass the increase along to the public (and maybe more than just the increase). They even passed increased fuel costs onto us, let alone a wage increase.
So, while the lowest paid workers will get some relief, they will, like the rest of us, be paying more for things produced by minimum wage workers.
I don't know how to avoid the "one pocket fatter, the other pocket thinner" outcome
Reality is not welcome at the DUmp.
Response to merrily (Reply #3)
Thu Sep 4, 2014, 04:38 PM
gratuitous (49,989 posts)
19. How much of the cost is worker wages?
People seem to think that if the guy flipping burgers back there on the flat top is getting $7 more an hour, that will directly result in a burger that costs $7 more. But the cost of the finished burger is determined by a number of factors independent of what the guy with the spatula makes. Your 99 cent burger might go up to $1.29, but probably more likely to $1.09. You'll see prices go up faster and stay up longer with a spike in fuel prices.
Also, when the guy flipping burgers has more disposable income, he will be more able to patronize other business establishments, goosing their sales and bottom lines. He might even have a better attitude at work, and flip 12 burgers in the time it now takes him to flip 10.
And a winged unicorn flies over with a stream of rainbow skittles falling out of its ass.
Our old friend Mr Taylor,attorney at law weighs in.
Response to merrily (Reply #21)
Thu Sep 4, 2014, 05:34 PM
Laelth (20,709 posts)
37. No, not the point you were making, no.
Instead, it was the point you might want to hear. In fast food, for example, labor accounts for about 20% of cost, so one could double the minimum wage and increase the price of a hamburger by 20%. In this case, the owners would make the same amount of profit, but their employees would have double the money to spend. It would work similarly across the economy. Doubling the minimum wage will make the cost of good and services go up, but the cost should not double (or even nearly double) Across the board, one might expect a 33% increase in the cost of goods and services, while millions of people will have twice as much money to spend. We would all be richer as a result.
Note, however, that education is an exception. At the elementary and secondary levels, payroll accounts for nearly 90% of the cost of keeping schools open. A wage increase, therefore, would dramatically increase the cost of primary and secondary education.
-Laelth
Proving that passing a bar exam can be done by a complete cretin.
Let me ask you something Alan...what happens to ALL the other input expenses the business has as everyone upstream of the owner also has to raise the price of their goods (production,packaging,storage,transportation etc) by some percent?
I wonder,since you are a member of the legal profession,which is well known for charging 100s of dollars per hour so you pay any paralegal or staff 20% of that rate?
Response to Politicalboi (Reply #27)
Thu Sep 4, 2014, 05:20 PM
merrily (8,029 posts)
29. No thanks. They get enough tax breaks as it is.
I am of the view that if you really cannot afford to pay your employees minimum wage, you should make more money or re-think the viability of your business plan.
There is no reason the taxpayer has to subsidize Burger King, any more that there is a reason why the Taxpayer has to subsidize WalMart.
Besides no matter how many tax breaks and incentives they get, it's never enough. If it's cheaper for them to offshore and they can, they will. If it's cheaper for them to move to Canada, they will. It's not about breaking even or making a modest profit. It's about making as much as they think they can.
For example, Massachusetts gave Fidelity Investments millions and Fidelity still moved out of the state. It's never enough
Yet you are the first to want everything for free.
Taitertots (6,339 posts)
59. The "passed on to consumers" view misses several key concepts
The simple way of explaining it is to say:
If increasing prices increased profits, then prices would have already increased. Even when a factor price increases, the profit maximizing price doesn't necessarily increase.
If businesses could pass the cost (maybe more) onto the consumer, big business would support it.
Idiocy like yours should be criminal.
A product has a given demand value,if the costs of producing it no longer can provide an incentive to do so then the product ceases to be produced.
Response to Taitertots (Reply #59)
Thu Sep 4, 2014, 09:29 PM
delete_bush (1,548 posts)
67. I disagree
"If increasing prices increased profits, then prices would have already increased. "
Prices, especially in the fast food industry, are EXTREMELY price sensitive. The big corps know this, which is why they're always tweaking their offerings and price structure. Look at McDonald's "dollar menu". Check the signage plastered on the windows of Carl's Jr/Burger King. They always consider the effect of pricing on units sold, and take prices to whichever level has the best effect on the bottom line.
For example, there is the effect of substitute awareness. What is the availability of substitute products? If buyers are aware of competing products offered for less, they will consider changing their buying habits. Especially today, when price comparison data is available in seconds, it is much easier for consumers to identify alternative products and compare features and price.
Trying to explain economics to the DUmbasses is like trying to explain flying to a fish.
Response to delete_bush (Reply #67)
Thu Sep 4, 2014, 09:39 PM
Taitertots (6,339 posts)
68. But do you agree that minimum wage increases wouldn't be directly passed to consumers?
You are looking at an over simplification outside of the context of the discussion.
See what I mean?
Response to Taitertots (Reply #68)
Thu Sep 4, 2014, 10:38 PM
delete_bush (1,548 posts)
71. I will say that for some enterprises this will
not be the case, yes. Unfortunately, they will more than likely be the large corps, because they can take the short term hit, but not the little guy (the one I'm rooting for).
Take the owner of a sandwich franchise, for example. Here are the real numbers for an existing business.
Sales = $570,000
Wages = $130,000
Net to working owner = $70,000
I'm not sure of the average wage, but let's be generous and say it's $10.00 per hour. An increase to $15.00 per hour would increase the cost of labor to $195,000, an increase of $65,000. Without increasing prices, the owner, who invested over $300,000 to build the place, will now take home $5,000 per year.
So tell me his choices, and the effect each will have on the landscape.
There,that is something they might grasp. :)
Response to delete_bush (Reply #71)
Thu Sep 4, 2014, 11:10 PM
Hippo_Tron (25,343 posts)
73. What sandwich franchise has 6 employees working over 40 hours a week?
I worked in an extremely busy pizza joint where during dinner rush we had 5 people in the kitchen, 3 cooks, 1 dishwasher, 1 manager. Most hours of the day it was 1-2 cooks and a manager.
If your sandwich shop owner is keeping 6 employees busy for 40 hours a week, he's making more than $70k.
AHHHHHHHHHHH,math...it hurts :panic:
Response to Hippo_Tron (Reply #73)
Thu Sep 4, 2014, 11:28 PM
delete_bush (1,548 posts)
75. In my example,
the percentage of labor to sales was 23%, which is on the low side. I seriously doubt you can refute this with anything more than anecdotal evidence.
"Labor is typically among the highest costs restaurant owners incur. According to a 2010 study by the National Restaurant association, the typical full-service restaurant spends about a third of its sales revenue on labor, including front- and back-of house-positions. Limited-service restaurants such as fast-food outfits have lower average labor cost percentages, spending less than 30 percent of their income on payroll."
[link:http://yourbusiness.azcentral.com/normal-restaurants-labor-cost-percentage-13115.html|
Pssst,it is the highest cost for most businesses.
Response to delete_bush (Reply #75)
Thu Sep 4, 2014, 11:49 PM
Hippo_Tron (25,343 posts)
81. By your own admission, you're not sure of the average wage and just set it at $10
And does your article state that 23% is "on the low side" for a non full service restaurant.
The normal leftist "I will be obtuse" ploy in a debate they are unqualified to be in.
Response to Hippo_Tron (Reply #73)
Thu Sep 4, 2014, 11:50 PM
taught_me_patience (4,277 posts)
82. Add up the hours
Open 12 hours means 14 hours per day.
Most will have 2 people on shift at all times and 3 during lunch... which means 35 man hours/day. That is 12,700 man hours/year, or approx 130k at $9/hr+15% for taxes and workers comp.
Response to taught_me_patience (Reply #82)
Fri Sep 5, 2014, 12:10 AM
Hippo_Tron (25,343 posts)
85. Lunch lasts for 7 hours?
See my previous statement.
Response to delete_bush (Reply #71)
Thu Sep 4, 2014, 11:45 PM
taught_me_patience (4,277 posts)
80. Wages at 23% of sales?
Extremely low. I'd venture to guess that wages would be closer to 30-35% of sales for a typical sandwich/coffee/fast food shop. Also... 570k in sales is A LOT of sandwiches. I'd venture to guess most "subway" franchises gross less than this. A $15/hr minimum wage would completely and totally decimate a typical sandwich shop (or a coffee shop).
I own a coffee shop and would be out of business within 2 months if I had to pay $15/hr without significantly raising prices.
Which basically goes ignored.
Idiots.
-
I own a coffee shop and would be out of business within 2 months if I had to pay $15/hr without significantly raising prices.
That alone is worth a national Minimum Wage. That and all the dump monkees getting fired or their bookstore.coffee shops going under.
I am in a really bad mood today and rarely go to fast food places, so I say let's let go of the rope and let them eat dirt. God willing, the few that actually work will get canned and the few that have businesses will go bust.
Hey dump monkeys: Be careful for what you ask: you may get it!
-
Laelth
In fast food, for example, labor accounts for about 20% of cost, so one could double the minimum wage and increase the price of a hamburger by 20%. In this case, the owners would make the same amount of profit, but their employees would have double the money to spend.
Labor accounts for 20% of cost, increase the minimum wage by 100%, increase the price by 20%, and you're at the same profit level. Really?!? You actually said something that stupid out loud?
How ignorant do you have to be to draw a direct percentage correlation between labor costs, doubling the minimum wage, and the needed increase in cost of products/services in order to maintain profitability?
As ignorant as Alan Taylor, that's who.
.
-
Labor accounts for 20% of cost, increase the minimum wage by 100%, increase the price by 20%, and you're at the same profit level. Really?!? You actually said something that stupid out loud?
How ignorant do you have to be to draw a direct percentage correlation between doubling the minimum wage and the needed increase in cost of products/services in order to maintain profitability?
As ignorant as Alan Taylor, that's who.
There's a reason he's a half-ass Georgia attorney and not the CEO of Apple.
-
Can the DUmmie intelligent elite be taught to YOYO?
-
I also love how they think there are no other associated costs of doing business.
I guess the building,stoves (in the case of a food provider) packaging,insurance,property taxes,franchise fee (if applicable) and the food itself with its shelf life are all just magically provided free of charge.
-
I also love how they think there are no other associated costs of doing business.
I guess the building,stoves (in the case of a food provider) packaging,insurance,property taxes,franchise fee (if applicable) and the food itself with its shelf life are all just magically provided free of charge.
I agree, it's a full misunderstanding of economics.
So Alan, if a fast food place made $100 a week, and payroll was $20 but you wanted to double it to $40, then just increase prices to where you're making $120 a week and all will be great.
Wow!
WOW!!
.
-
Not only are DUmmies not going to get fifteen dollars an hour, the few who work are going to get a big cut.
Thanks to the jug-eared muslim's insurance scheme, they will be cut to twenty-nine hours per week - for many that's already happened.
No businessman in his right mind will voluntarily pay health insurance for menial labor when it's so abundantly available.
Luckily for the DUmmies, not many of them have any plan to ever work.
-
Examples for the 50,000th time that DUmmies don't know jack shit about economics, business, or capitalism.
-
If they want wages to rise, they should clamp down on illegal immigration. I know. I know. Anyways, raising the minimum wage is a really bad idea.
-
I just pulled up some financials from a few years ago when I was the treasurer of the local country club.
Employees wages & salaries, payroll taxes and benefits were 86% of the total expenses in the restaurant and grill room. The same wages, taxes, & benefits comprised 56% of total revenue. The restaurant/bar/grill still operated at a slight loss.
If the minimum wage were doubled, prices of menu items, including liquor, beer & wine would need to be raised by about 75%-80% to project at the same slight loss.
So suck on it DUmmies, long, hard and deep.
-
"Mr. or Ms. Hamburger Flipping DUmmie! You want $15 an hour? Fine! Go to Wendy's (or whomever the competition is)! Here's your replacement!!"
(http://images.gizmag.com/inline/hamburger-machine-11.png)
-
41. It would certainly be a boost for the Section 8 housing market
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
Fixed it, you idiot. Tell us all about.....2008? Show your research and cite facts, cause and result.
We'll wait.
Just try and purchase a home in any metropolitan area on $15.00/hr. Forget it. It's a very decent wage where I live (with a paid off home and vehicles). Entrance home ownership? Dream on.
-
I just pulled up some financials from a few years ago when I was the treasurer of the local country club.
Employees wages & salaries, payroll taxes and benefits were 86% of the total expenses in the restaurant and grill room. The same wages, taxes, & benefits comprised 56% of total revenue. The restaurant/bar/grill still operated at a slight loss.
If the minimum wage were doubled, prices of menu items, including liquor, beer & wine would need to be raised by about 75%-80% to project at the same slight loss.
So suck on it DUmmies, long, hard and deep.
When I watch those reality shows, like Robert Irvine's Restaurant Impossible, he would always tell the owners to price their menus out by tripling the costs of labor, food and overhead.
Not sure exactly how you would figure labor costs per item, as it still costs the restaurant labor hours, even if no one is cooking or serving.
-
Labor accounts for 20% of cost, increase the minimum wage by 100%, increase the price by 20%, and you're at the same profit level. Really?!? You actually said something that stupid out loud?
How ignorant do you have to be to draw a direct percentage correlation between labor costs, doubling the minimum wage, and the needed increase in cost of products/services in order to maintain profitability?
As ignorant as Alan Taylor, that's who.
.
A lot of lawyers, Laelth apparently included, are completely ignorant of accounting, fiscal reporting, supply chain economics, or management in general.
You do realize that the same minimum wage that affects the point-of-sale employees will be an input to all the supplies and services that go into the supplies, materials, and labor that feeds into that final sale in the fast food palace, don't you, Laelth? Supplies, materials, and even utilities will all be affected by doubling that minimum wage, especially after any unions concerned insist their members maintain a proportional separation from the statutory minimum wage to leave them in the same relative position they were. All that will in turn cascade into the cost-of-goods-sold at the fast food stores, it's not simply a matter of the wages at the Mickey-D's going up in isolation.
-
A lot of lawyers, Laelth apparently included, are completely ignorant of accounting, fiscal reporting, supply chain economics, or management in general.
You do realize that the same minimum wage that affects the point-of-sale employees will be an input to all the supplies and services that go into the supplies, materials, and labor that feeds into that final sale in the fast food palace, don't you, Laelth? Supplies, materials, and even utilities will all be affected by doubling that minimum wage, especially after any unions concerned insist their members maintain a proportional separation from the statutory minimum wage to leave them in the same relative position they were. All that will in turn cascade into the cost-of-goods-sold at the fast food stores, it's not simply a matter of the wages at the Mickey-D's going up in isolation.
I don't believe our friend Laelth is as stupid as he's coming across; I think he knows what the real score is, which is the way you explained it.
I suspect Laelth had a certain motive in mind, looking stupider than he really is.
He's trying to get along with the primitives, and has to stoop down to their level. He doesn't care if he spouts nonsense he doesn't believe in, just so long as the primitives like him.
-
Possibly, Frank, but then while I don't want to underestimate my opponents, I don't want to overestimate them, either. The 20% figure he quoted is patently ridiculous except for situations where the location is so desirable and commercial real estate so high-priced that rent and real estate taxes make up the substantial majority of each month's balance sheet, a rare situation across the spectrum of fast food restaurants in this country.
Many lawyers truly are completely innocent of any business/financial management expertise, it is not part of the law school curriculum and not part of the prerequisites to get into law school, which generally are just a BA or BS with a decent GPA and a good LSAT score (And the LSAT really is more of a language test, and to a much lesser degree a test of basic reasoning skills, than anything else).
-
A lot of lawyers, Laelth apparently included, are completely ignorant of accounting, fiscal reporting, supply chain economics, or management in general.
That's why I wish we wouldn't elect so many of them to Congress. My primary vote earlier this year was influenced precisely by that. Lawyer? No. Businesswoman? Yes.
Don't forget about those % of labor costs, like FICA, FUI and SUI. The government would love to get their hands on "Just a little bit more."
As always, the DUmp econ/biz threads are hilarious. Especially when they try and talk like academic textbooks.