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Current Events => Breaking News => Topic started by: Mr Mannn on August 01, 2014, 04:28:34 AM

Title: IRS Strikes Deal With Atheists To Monitor Churches
Post by: Mr Mannn on August 01, 2014, 04:28:34 AM
http://news.investors.com/ibd-editorials/073114-711290-irs-deal-with-atheists-to-monitor-churches.htm
Quote
First Amendment: Government's assault on religious liberty has hit a new low as the IRS settles with atheists by promising to monitor sermons for mentions of the right to life and traditional marriage.

A lawsuit filed by the Wisconsin-based Freedom From Religion Foundation (FFRF) asserted that the Internal Revenue Service ignored complaints about churches' violating their tax-exempt status by routinely promoting political issues, legislation and candidates from the pulpit.

The FFRF has temporarily withdrawn its suit in return for the IRS's agreement to monitor sermons and homilies for proscribed speech that the foundation believes includes things like condemnation of gay marriage and criticism of ObamaCare for its contraceptive mandate.

The irony of this agreement is that it's being enforced by the same Tax Exempt and Government Entities Division of the IRS that was once headed by Lois "Fifth Amendment" Lerner and that openly targeted Tea Party and other conservative groups.

Among the questions that the IRS asked of those targeted groups was the content of their prayers.

Those who objected to the monitoring of what is said and done in mosques for signs of terrorist activity have no problem with this one, though monitoring what's said in houses of worship is a clear violation of the First Amendment. Can you say "chilling effect"?

--snip--more at link
methinks this will not involve black churches raising funds for Obama.

Title: Re: IRS Strikes Deal With Atheists To Monitor Churches
Post by: SVPete on August 01, 2014, 07:39:26 AM
http://news.investors.com/ibd-editorials/073114-711290-irs-deal-with-atheists-to-monitor-churches.htm

methinks this will not involve black churches raising funds for Obama.
Of course not. They've not done it the past 30-40 (and more!) years of steadily increasing and blatant partisanship among many black churches. Why would they start now?

IMO, this is a case of the IRS doing a cozy wink-wink deal with an activist org:

* The IRS wants to do this anyway, and being "forced" to under court order covers their free-speech- and free-exercise-violating hind quarters;

* Besides getting the government to do their bidding, the FFRF and their lawyers will probably get a nice fat $$ settlement (which the IRS is only too happy to pay, since Congress will make up any budgetary hole next year).

How is this not a court-ordered establishment of atheism as a state-favored religion?

Conservatives need to video/audio tape every speech or rally by a D pol at a liberal black church and report the ones that get partisan - personally or on partisan issues - to the IRS, with copies of the report and video/audio sent to a conservative Congress Critter. A few hundred or even thousand such reports should give the IRS something to occupy their obviously copious time and let them know that citizens and Congress Critters are watching for partisanship in their enforcement.
Title: Re: IRS Strikes Deal With Atheists To Monitor Churches
Post by: Fourwinds on August 01, 2014, 10:52:04 AM
Funny how atheists never go after a religion who's followers would likely hunt them down, drag them into the street and beat them or worse. Cowards. I don't care what they say, these sorts of people aren't anti religion. They're anti Christian.

As for the IRS well...we all know now how they roll. They have gone from a tax and revenue agency to a political hit squad.
Title: Re: IRS Strikes Deal With Atheists To Monitor Churches
Post by: DefiantSix on August 01, 2014, 11:10:24 AM
Funny how atheists never go after a religion who's followers would likely hunt them down, drag them into the street and beat them or worse. Cowards.

You noticed that, too?  Huh...

Ya know, my church is entirely "lay clergy" operated: the next time I'm called upon to give a sermon, I think I know a few choice phrases I simply MUST include now...
Title: Re: IRS Strikes Deal With Atheists To Monitor Churches
Post by: thundley4 on August 01, 2014, 07:53:29 PM
I can see churches being prohibited from endorsing a candidate, but how can they ban them from discussing issues like abortion, immigration or drug use?

By doing that they are virtually banning things that every non profit group talks about.
Title: Re: IRS Strikes Deal With Atheists To Monitor Churches
Post by: zewazir on August 06, 2014, 02:22:02 PM
As usual, liberals haven't a foggy clue about the orgin and meaning behind the tax exempt status of churches. (Mainly due to the fact that the liberal controlled education system no longer teaches U.S. history.)  The purpose of churches being tax exempt has nothing to do with IRS regulations (which are, in fact, grossly unconstitutional - but that's another topic). Taxation without representation was the reason for keeping churches tax exempt. If churches are taxed, then they would have all the rights of any other private organization, to include running PACs.  Imagine the power that would result from a PAC run by the USCCB. Talk about liberal heads exploding....
Title: Re: IRS Strikes Deal With Atheists To Monitor Churches
Post by: wasp69 on August 06, 2014, 02:53:52 PM
Taxation without representation was the reason for keeping churches tax exempt. If churches are taxed, then they would have all the rights of any other private organization, to include running PACs.  Imagine the power that would result from a PAC run by the USCCB. Talk about liberal heads exploding....

Can you cite that?
Title: Re: IRS Strikes Deal With Atheists To Monitor Churches
Post by: J P Sousa on August 06, 2014, 08:51:12 PM
I have long wondered if Atheists are really communist..................just wondering.  :whistling:

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  The first requisite for the happiness of the people is the abolition of religion.

Karl Marx

Our program necessarily includes the propaganda of atheism.

Vladimir Lenin
 



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Dr. Carson;

“A house divided against itself cannot stand. And the purpose of it [the divisiveness] of course is to make
 people throw their hands up in disgust and say “This isn’t working. We need to move to another system.”
Go back and read the Neo-Marxist literature. It’s all right there. All this stuff is not secret.
That’s why I encourage people all the time to go read the stuff.
You don’t have to take my word for it…Vladimir Lenin. Saul Alinsky. Karl Marx.
These people laid all this stuff out.
   

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Dr. Carson was more direct: If a hypothetical “somebody” in the White House “wanted to destroy this nation,” he would “coincidentally” do exactly what Obama has already done.
   

Title: Re: IRS Strikes Deal With Atheists To Monitor Churches
Post by: zewazir on August 07, 2014, 12:47:29 PM
Can you cite that?
I read the hypothesis in a book: "Taxation and The Free Exercise of Religion" by John W Baker. I know that many historians and economists disagree, but the idea makes sense to me. By allowing religions to remain tax exempt, it also allows the government to limit their direct involvement in political matters. All part of the "wall of separation" mentioned by Thomas Jefferson.

Of course, there are additional arguments, very strong ones, in favor of leaving churches alone when it comes to taxation, not the least of which is how does the state treat a church which cannot/will not meet its tax obligations should taxes be imposed? Do they confiscate church properties? Shut the church down? I am reminded of a quote (can't think of where it came from off the top of my head, and too lazy this morning to research it) that basically claims the power to tax contains the power to destroy. If religion is to be kept away from the influences of government, then government cannot be allowed the power to tax religion.

This is why the ACA mandate is such a big deal.  HUGE deal.  It proposes to significantly alter the relationship between government and religion, putting government in charge. This is a power which, until now, was carefully avoided by the founders and by most previous administrations. The right to freely express and practice one's religion is a cornerstone of basic liberty, and it is being daily eroded by progressive liberal demands.
Title: Re: IRS Strikes Deal With Atheists To Monitor Churches
Post by: wasp69 on August 07, 2014, 02:00:39 PM
I read the hypothesis in a book: "Taxation and The Free Exercise of Religion" by John W Baker. I know that many historians and economists disagree, but the idea makes sense to me. By allowing religions to remain tax exempt, it also allows the government to limit their direct involvement in political matters. All part of the "wall of separation" mentioned by Thomas Jefferson.

Of course, there are additional arguments, very strong ones, in favor of leaving churches alone when it comes to taxation, not the least of which is how does the state treat a church which cannot/will not meet its tax obligations should taxes be imposed? Do they confiscate church properties? Shut the church down? I am reminded of a quote (can't think of where it came from off the top of my head, and too lazy this morning to research it) that basically claims the power to tax contains the power to destroy. If religion is to be kept away from the influences of government, then government cannot be allowed the power to tax religion.

I hope Mr. Baker's contention that tax exemption for churches wasn't actually anything to do with "taxation without representation" or being able to run PACs (which sounds almost like anti-religious propaganda and fear mongering).  If it was, I would say that he is tragically wrong and you got the correct answer despite his best efforts.   :wink:

The "power to tax contains the power to destroy" is from a USSC case Walz V Tax Commission of The City of New York that affirmed almost (at the time) 200 years of tax exemption for churches in the United States. 

Quote
WALZ v. TAX COMMISSION OF CITY OF NEW YORK , 397 U.S. 664 (1970)

397 U.S. 664

Frederick WALZ, Appellant,
v.
TAX COMMISSION OF the CITY OF NEW YORK.
No. 135.

Argued Nov. 19, 1969.
Decided May 4, 1970.

Mr. Chief Justice BURGER delivered the opinion of the Court.

...Governments have not always been tolerant of religious activity, and hostility toward religion has taken many shapes and forms-economic, political, and sometimes harshly oppressive. Grants of exemption historically reflect the concern of authors of constitutions and statutes as to the latent dangers inherent in the imposition of property taxes; examption constitutes a reasonable and balanced attempt to guard against those dangers....

...Elimination of exemption would tend to expand the involvement of government by giving rise to tax valuation of church property, tax liens, tax foreclosures, and the direct confrontations and conflicts that follow in the train of those legal processes....

...The exemption creates only a minimal and remote involvement between church and state and far less than taxation of churches. It restricts the fiscal relationship between church and state, and tends to complement and reinforce the desired separation insulating each from the other....
http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?navby=CASE&court=US&vol=397&page=664 (http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?navby=CASE&court=US&vol=397&page=664)

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This is why the ACA mandate is such a big deal.  HUGE deal.  It proposes to significantly alter the relationship between government and religion, putting government in charge. This is a power which, until now, was carefully avoided by the founders and by most previous administrations. The right to freely express and practice one's religion is a cornerstone of basic liberty, and it is being daily eroded by progressive liberal demands.

The obamacare mandates that attempt to force government supremacy over faith are indeed a problem, but they have nothing to do with the IRS promising to monitor churches at the demand of atheists or your post that states churches would suddenly have immense political power granted them by recognition by the government.

Why even bring it up?
Title: Re: IRS Strikes Deal With Atheists To Monitor Churches
Post by: zewazir on August 07, 2014, 03:30:11 PM
No, I do not see John W. Baker as being "tragically wrong", except that he overstates the "taxation without representation" factor in the origin of exempting churches from taxation. However, the idea that taxing churches would allow them to operate far more openly in promoting or opposing specific political issues is very real, though it is not scare mongering. In fact, the very fact that the IRS is watch dogging churches to make sure they DON'T involve themselves directly in political issues supports this conclusion. "Keep your mouths shut about politics, or you'll find yourselves paying taxes" is what is happening. Threatening churches with cancellation of their 501(c)(3) status is the only authority .gov has over keeping churches out of politics.  If churches were taxed, that authority would go away, and churches would, indeed, have full rights to be directly involved with politics, to include endorsement of specific candidates and operating PACs. Now, I say that is not scare mongering, but OTOH, I would imagine that most liberals would, indeed, find the idea of church operated PACs to be frightening.

I bring up the ACA mandate because I see relationships in many things. Both instances are cases in which government claims to have authority over the practices of religious organizations (to include organizations operated by individuals with religious convictions.) Of course, the instances are different in detail and scope, but they still involve the same thing: government claiming authority over how religion may operate within established law.

In the case of the IRS, we have an old and traditional concept which states that government may limit the political activity of a church by withholding the tax exemption if the church gets too involved with politics. It's a claim on authority which is quite old, and widely accepted by the vast majority. My problem with this concept is the practice falls under the premise that an organization must pay taxes in order for its membership to practice the rights of U.S. citizens. (This objection, BTW, includes the political limits placed on ALL 501(c) community benefit organizations.) Seems to me the entire poll tax issue came down on the idea that the People should never have to pay for what is already their right. Yet here we have .gov stating quite unequivocally that if a church - or any other community benefit organization operating under the 501(c) tax code - that to enjoy tax free status they are giving up their rights of political discourse under the 1st Amendment promise of free speech.

The case of U.S. government vs. Hobby Lobby is a claim by .gov that secular law trumps religious convictions. It takes the position that people must give up their religious beliefs in order to operate a business that falls under government regulation. (meaning ALL businesses.)  Seems their idea is if you want to fully practice religious convictions, you can't own or operate a business. If you do own and operate a business, then you have no right to freely practice your religion. And while SCOTUS did rule in favor of Hobby Lobby, when one reads the decision carefully, they did NOT actually rule in favor of religious freedom. The deciding factor was not that the 1st Amendment trumps the ACA, but rather that the state did not prove an overriding interest, ONLY due to the fact that the ACA had already granted multiple exceptions to the BC mandate. IOW, if the state CAN show an overriding interest, then NONE of our liberties are protected. Seemingly a victory, the wording of the decision states that all .gov needs to take away any of our freedoms is to prove the state has an "overriding interest" in doing so.

In short, it is all a pattern of behavior which indicates that we have no liberty except that which the government so graciously allows us to keep. This is an attitude which has slowly developed over time, but is now ripe and mature in its claim of government authority over the People. It is an attitude which must be changed.
Title: Re: IRS Strikes Deal With Atheists To Monitor Churches
Post by: wasp69 on August 11, 2014, 12:31:25 PM
No, I do not see John W. Baker as being "tragically wrong", except that he overstates the "taxation without representation" factor in the origin of exempting churches from taxation. However, the idea that taxing churches would allow them to operate far more openly in promoting or opposing specific political issues is very real, though it is not scare mongering. In fact, the very fact that the IRS is watch dogging churches to make sure they DON'T involve themselves directly in political issues supports this conclusion. "Keep your mouths shut about politics, or you'll find yourselves paying taxes" is what is happening. Threatening churches with cancellation of their 501(c)(3) status is the only authority .gov has over keeping churches out of politics.  If churches were taxed, that authority would go away, and churches would, indeed, have full rights to be directly involved with politics, to include endorsement of specific candidates and operating PACs. Now, I say that is not scare mongering, but OTOH, I would imagine that most liberals would, indeed, find the idea of church operated PACs to be frightening.

I can almost see your point, but I'm not convinced.  There is nothing stopping individuals from creating PACs and 501c3's to further their political aims which is why we are seeing the current dust up with regards to the IRS and tax exempt organizations that are not to the regime's liking.  What makes you think that stripping tax exemption from from churches will change this?  Did the church that lost its exempt status in 1992 do this?

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I bring up the ACA mandate because I see relationships in many things. Both instances are cases in which government claims to have authority over the practices of religious organizations (to include organizations operated by individuals with religious convictions.) Of course, the instances are different in detail and scope, but they still involve the same thing: government claiming authority over how religion may operate within established law.

Actually, while there may be similarities, there is a mile's worth of difference of a claim of authority versus a deal in which there will be active government monitoring.  It wouldn't be the first time the government has dispatched "agents" to observe sermons and take action against that which they deem inappropriate, but it's not quite the same as the implied authority claimed in the ACA.

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The case of U.S. government vs. Hobby Lobby is a claim by .gov that secular law trumps religious convictions. It takes the position that people must give up their religious beliefs in order to operate a business that falls under government regulation. (meaning ALL businesses.)  Seems their idea is if you want to fully practice religious convictions, you can't own or operate a business. If you do own and operate a business, then you have no right to freely practice your religion. And while SCOTUS did rule in favor of Hobby Lobby, when one reads the decision carefully, they did NOT actually rule in favor of religious freedom. The deciding factor was not that the 1st Amendment trumps the ACA, but rather that the state did not prove an overriding interest, ONLY due to the fact that the ACA had already granted multiple exceptions to the BC mandate. IOW, if the state CAN show an overriding interest, then NONE of our liberties are protected. Seemingly a victory, the wording of the decision states that all .gov needs to take away any of our freedoms is to prove the state has an "overriding interest" in doing so.

Are you sure about that?  Can you cite for me the relevant information from the USSC decision to support your contention?

Quote
In short, it is all a pattern of behavior which indicates that we have no liberty except that which the government so graciously allows us to keep. This is an attitude which has slowly developed over time, but is now ripe and mature in its claim of government authority over the People. It is an attitude which must be changed.

To the contrary, considering some of the things I have seen happen over the last 6 years, I would say a bit of a revival of the concept of individual liberty and a reassertion of individual rights under the Constitution has happened.
Title: Re: IRS Strikes Deal With Atheists To Monitor Churches
Post by: Dori on August 11, 2014, 01:12:16 PM
Do enough churches even operate in the black where there would be any profits to have to pay taxes on?  Maybe they should just do away with the tax exempt thing all together.

I think they should be able to discuss politics, politicians or any other government policy/program they want to.



Title: Re: IRS Strikes Deal With Atheists To Monitor Churches
Post by: wasp69 on August 11, 2014, 02:41:24 PM
Do enough churches even operate in the black where there would be any profits to have to pay taxes on? 

It's not about profit, more about the land and structures.
Title: Re: IRS Strikes Deal With Atheists To Monitor Churches
Post by: thundley4 on August 11, 2014, 04:45:10 PM
It's not about profit, more about the land and structures.

In every city there are churches sitting on prime real estate. What many people forget, though is that churches were built by people and the towns tended to grow because of those churches.
Title: Re: IRS Strikes Deal With Atheists To Monitor Churches
Post by: zewazir on August 11, 2014, 11:15:30 PM
I can almost see your point, but I'm not convinced.  There is nothing stopping individuals from creating PACs and 501c3's to further their political aims which is why we are seeing the current dust up with regards to the IRS and tax exempt organizations that are not to the regime's liking.  What makes you think that stripping tax exemption from from churches will change this?  Did the church that lost its exempt status in 1992 do this?
The current dust up over IRS targeting conservative groups are 501(c)(4) groups, not 501(c)(3). C4 groups can, indeed form PACs and engage in other political activities. C3s cannot form or operate PACs, cannot directly support nor even endorse specific political candidates, etc. At most, a C3 organization can publish a direct comparison of candidate positions on issues.  The church that had its 501(c)(3) status revoked fired the individuals responsible for the loss of their status, and reapplied 1 year later. (in short, they caved.)

To the contrary, considering some of the things I have seen happen over the last 6 years, I would say a bit of a revival of the concept of individual liberty and a reassertion of individual rights under the Constitution has happened.
To be sure, the .gov agencies have been losing more cases than they have been winning when it comes to challenging the manner .gov can regulate 1st Amendment activities, and even 2nd Amendment activities. However, there is the additional factor that the number of cases coming before the courts has taken a drastic upturn because .gov under the current tyrant-in-chief have been tramping on our constitutional protection every time we blink. Not to mention that when they DO lose in court, they simply write new laws which in turn need to be challenged for their constitutionality.


Are you sure about that?  Can you cite for me the relevant information from the USSC decision to support your contention?
www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/13pdf/13-354_olp1.pdf

In the introduction to the decision, SCOTUS references the Religious Freedom Restoration Act of 1993 as the basis for the manner the case was decided.
Quote
The Religious Freedom Restoration Act of 1993 (RFRA) prohibits the “Government [from] substantially burden[ing] a person’s exercise of religion even if the burden results from a rule of general applicability” unless the Government “demonstrates that application of the burden to the person—(1) is in furtherance of a compelling governmental interest; and (2) is the least restrictive means of furthering that compelling governmental interest.”
Right there, the court is basically saying that when the government has "compelling interest" it can go ahead and place limits on our rights. So much for "Congress shall make no law..." because if the government has "compelling interest", then they CAN make whatever law they desire.  The reason given that the government did not prove compelling interest is summed up that there are already numerous exemptions in place, thus proving that government enforcement of the ACA birth control mandate is not the "least restrictive means of furthering that compelling government interest."

Note that the 1st amendment is not ONCE referenced as a protection of the People's rights, but rather a law that was written which states the government CAN violate our rights if "compelling interest" is proven.
Title: Re: IRS Strikes Deal With Atheists To Monitor Churches
Post by: wasp69 on August 19, 2014, 12:58:44 PM
The current dust up over IRS targeting conservative groups are 501(c)(4) groups, not 501(c)(3). C4 groups can, indeed form PACs and engage in other political activities. C3s cannot form or operate PACs, cannot directly support nor even endorse specific political candidates, etc.  At most, a C3 organization can publish a direct comparison of candidate positions on issues.

You're right, my apologies, it was the C4s I was thinking of, not the C3s.

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The church that had its 501(c)(3) status revoked fired the individuals responsible for the loss of their status, and reapplied 1 year later. (in short, they caved.)

So, they didn't become a PAC powerhouse after the shackles of government were thrown off of their free speech rights?  Odd...

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To be sure, the .gov agencies have been losing more cases than they have been winning when it comes to challenging the manner .gov can regulate 1st Amendment activities, and even 2nd Amendment activities. However, there is the additional factor that the number of cases coming before the courts has taken a drastic upturn because .gov under the current tyrant-in-chief have been tramping on our constitutional protection every time we blink. Not to mention that when they DO lose in court, they simply write new laws which in turn need to be challenged for their constitutionality.

The measures put in place by the Founders are still working - that's a good thing.  My point was that the tools are being used which means that there is a growing awareness in the citizenry which will eventually translate into representation at the Federal level. 

Which is also a good thing.

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In the introduction to the decision, SCOTUS references the Religious Freedom Restoration Act of 1993 as the basis for the manner the case was decided.Right there, the court is basically saying that when the government has "compelling interest" it can go ahead and place limits on our rights. So much for "Congress shall make no law..." because if the government has "compelling interest", then they CAN make whatever law they desire.  The reason given that the government did not prove compelling interest is summed up that there are already numerous exemptions in place, thus proving that government enforcement of the ACA birth control mandate is not the "least restrictive means of furthering that compelling government interest."

Note that the 1st amendment is not ONCE referenced as a protection of the People's rights, but rather a law that was written which states the government CAN violate our rights if "compelling interest" is proven.

You need to read further, what you are saying is not what happened. 

By citing the RFRA (which the plaintiffs also used as a legal basis), the USSC said:

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...RFRA’s text shows that Congress designed the statute to provide very broad protection for religious liberty and did not intend to put merchants to such a choice.  It employed the familiar legal fiction of including corporations within RFRA’s definition of “persons,” but the purpose of extending rights to corporations is to protect the rights of people associated with the corporation, including shareholders, officers, and employees.  Protecting the free-exercise rights of closely held corporations thus protects the religious liberty of the humans who own and control them...

...The Court has entertained RFRA and free-exercise claims brought by nonprofit corporations.  See, e.g., Gonzales v. O Centro Espírita Beneficiente União do Vegetal, 546 U. S. 418.  And HHS’s concession that a nonprofit corporation can be a “person” under RFRA effectively dispatches any argument that the term does not reach for-profit corporations; no conceivable definition of “person” includes natural persons and non-profit corporations, but not for-profit corporations...

...Also flawed is the claim that RFRA offers no protection because it only codified pre-Smith Free Exercise Clause precedents, none of which squarely recognized free-exercise rights for for-profit corporations...

...if RFRA’s original text were not clear enough, the RLUIPA amendment surely dispels any doubt that Congress intended to separate the definition of the phrase from that in First Amendment case law...

...the results would be absurd if RFRA, a law enacted to provide very broad protection for religious liberty, merely restored this Court’s pre-Smith decisions in ossified form and restricted RFRA claims to plaintiffs who fell within a category of plaintiffs whose claims the Court had recognized before Smith...

...HHS’s contraceptive mandate substantially burdens the exercise of religion...

The RFRA, and the RLUIPA amendment, is used by the court as remedy because it applies to closely held, for profit corporations because it affirms the Free Exercise Clause for those corporations.