The Conservative Cave
Current Events => The DUmpster => Topic started by: dutch508 on July 28, 2014, 10:54:01 AM
-
Now, I suffered through all three books in this series... :whistling: ... suffered because the writing was so childishly written and so unbelievable in plot, not to mention 1 dimensional characterizations of the main protagonists... ugh... even the sex scenes, which are most of the book, are High School boys locker room fetish fantasy writing contests... and, after the first 100 pages all the same... for the whole three books...
At least in the end of book three you are given some sort of closure. Unfortunately it isn't one where everyone dies...
BainsBane (27,662 posts) http://www.democraticunderground.com/10025297140
Fifty Shades of Grey depicts RAPE and has been criticized by BDSM advocates. The book depicts forcible rape, as this synopsis of the book shows.
"It perpetuates the ongoing idea that people who do this are broken in some way," she said. "And this is not true."
Dunlap, who has chronicled the practice of BDSM, interviewing hundreds of fetishists for his 2001 film, "Beyond Vanilla," said that the practice demands strict rules of safety.
"When two people want to get involved, their negotiation is up front," he said. "They are going to have a safe word: 'When I say, it ends. Period.' Most use a stop sign. Green means 'go.' Yellow means 'caution' and 'red' ends it."
"Play is also negotiated," said Dunlap. "For example, if you are doing flogging or whipping, 'Tell me during the process if you want to be hurt. Is it too hard? Is it too soft?'"
The BDSM craze has hit Britain, as well, according to Susan Quilliam, a relationship psychologist and sex advice columnist who is writing an academic piece on the trilogy for the Journal of Family Planning as well as running an exploratory workshop for the British couples.
"'Fifty Shades' has been roundly criticized by the BDSM community and its depiction of the lifestyle is inaccurate," she wrote in an email to ABCNews.com. "Christian Grey's initial seduction of Anastasia breaks every rule in the BDSM book."
Both the male and female lead are some seriously ****ed up mental characters... Sort of like all the DUmpmonkiez... Speaking of which, the new Monkey movie, Dawn of the Planet of the Apes is very very good.
msanthrope (25,311 posts)
2. "Red and "yellow" are the safe words they use. He does not break into her house. The book is absolute dreck, but every act was consensual.
Yeah, I don't really remember a rape scene either.
BainsBane (27,662 posts)
3. Not according to the synopsis And there has to be some reason there are so many BDSM people pissed off about it. Google turns up tons of articles to that effect.
Well, I read it. It sucks. It is about as faithful to BDSM (I know I know) accurately portrayed as Bainesbane is close to getting laid by Frank.
msanthrope (25,311 posts)
4. I read the book, Bane. I didn't rely on a synopsis. I can tell you exactly why the BDSM community hates that book.....because it is so ****ing, laughably bad. Hell...I'd be pissed if that was how my community was portrayed to vanilla America.
You know the difference between porn and erotica??
I swear that the misty DUmpmonkie is not one of my moles... :whistling:
BainsBane (27,662 posts)
61. I didn't claim to be an expert If you bothered to read, I made clear I didn't read the book. And I actually went to sleep, as offensive as you may find that. Last thing I heard, you carried a grudge from two years ago because you said I criticized you for not responding to a post of yours quickly enough, and here you are indicting me for the same thing.
As it turns out there are at least different versions of the book. It may be entirely possible the paperback version has been "cleaned up" for public consumption.
::) If you had bothered to read the book, you would have to make up excuses as to why you are wrong.
BainsBane (27,662 posts)
77. Which version did you read? It's starting to look like the mass paperback version differs from the original online fantiction version, which I believe what the linked website critiques.
There are a number of articles about BDSM critiques. They do not focus on it being "too vanilla" but on the lack of proper care by the dom for the well-being of his sub, the lack of after care, his portrayal as a personal psychologically damaged through abuse.
Here are some examples.
I will spare you the examples... So.. the 'original' on-line fanfic is different from the published book, but you don't really know since you haven't read either?
msanthrope (25,311 posts)
182. The published kindle version. Still no rape. nt
Funny- that's the version I read... :whistling:
msanthrope (25,311 posts)
197. Oh, I read your post. You still haven't read any version. nt
BainsBane (27,662 posts)
229. God, no I have too much respect for the English language to contribute to its defilement. The excerpts were terrifying enough.
:rotf: Frank, you really need to **** her.
BainsBane (27,662 posts)
234. I'll do a search of academic databases to see what I turn up My point, as the OP makes clear, is to clarify the point that those objecting to the film and movie are not objecting to consensual sexual activity but rape, or at least what they believe to be rape. So the strawman OPs posted yesterday that critics seek to control the private lives of consenting adults is false.
Academic laziness. If I was to write an OP about the new Dawn of the Planet of the Apes movie based on a on-line article about said movie, without having seen the movie, or even read anything about the movie except one article which plays into my already ****ed-up view of the world (in this case Monkiez is teh evil) then I would expect my literary and film review peers would pan my OP... Much like here...
msanthrope (25,311 posts)
235. Oh sure....you let me know what academic mental masturbation from journals you find. nt
:tongue:
BainsBane (27,662 posts)
239. Ah, yes. The anti-intellectualism that is so common in the generation of climate science denial and "women have a way of shutting that whole thing down." I am sorry you find education and research to be so offensive. I wish I could say I was surprised. No wonder you are so taken with this particular work of "literature."
Strawman. However- this isn't about education and research, not that you've done any, but the fact you posted an OP and made opinion statements BASED ON NO RESEARCH AND EDUCATION ON THE SUBJECT AT HAND, i.e. the ****ing books!
Luminous Animal (21,525 posts)
67. She didn't sign the contract until chapter 14. The rape depicted in the OP happens in chapter 12. While they went over the contract in chapter 11, she didn't sign it until chapter 14.
However, that sex is consensual, just not covered by the contract they draw up to get into the whole BDSM sub-plot.
BainsBane (27,662 posts)
78. So that rape isn't entirely invented as some claim I have done.
Drahthaardogs (1,662 posts)
192. Someone published a journal article analyzing the behavior of a fictional character?
Seriously? And The Journal of Women's Health actually published it? Even more frightening, someone actually allocated GRANT monies to research it? At least they did not completely insult my intelligence as a researcher and give it a p-value or do a regression analysis. I wonder if the research will be peer-reviewed.
What is next? Was Superman's fight with Lex Luthor self-defense under current Stand Your Ground Laws???
And speaking of Superman, what kind of Bizarro World Bullshit is all of this? It is a work of fiction on par with Bigfoot porn.
Pretty much. BUT it makes Bainesbane's panties wet, so there is that.
BainsBane (27,662 posts)
241. Ever take a literature course?
What do you suppose that field is if not analysis of literary characters?
Macbeth, Lear, Ahab, Ishmael? Certain one would be hard pressed to call this thing literature, but it seems like the typical fare for cultural studies and gender studies.
With this kind of hostility toward research and knowledge, no wonder the US educational system is falling behind.
Literary courses are not The Journal of Women's Health. Analysis of fictional plot lines is one thing, using it to demonize men, BB's goal, is about as far away from Introduction to Modern Literature as you can get.
redqueen (108,354 posts)
12. I'm telling you now: Give up. They do not care.
They do not give one single ****.
These people read the book, see? And they declare this to be not rape.
Several DUers now have insisted that they read it and that what you and I and anyone else who actually gives a shit thinks, that there is no rape or abuse or bad non-consensual sex in the book.
This is the state of things.
On a liberal message board.
I have lost all respect I ever had for so many people.
Most of all those who so willingly muddy the waters of these discussions. Pretending the issue is consensual sex and not RAPE AND DOMESTIC ABUSE.
Now, to be clear, the entire series is about emotional and physical abuse... entered into with free will (irony) by the female lead with the male lead, complete with a legal contract. Not exactly what the OP was talking about, but **** it. It fits the anti-man theme- just go with it.
msanthrope (25,311 posts)
15. Redqueen, as a feminist, I find your accusations offensive and facile. This is a very stupid book about two twits having sexual congress in ways that are supposed to be titillating. I've read more imaginative fanfic on MySpace.
Here is what I find offensive about your post: you seem to deny agency to the submissive in the relationship. Why negate agency to a whole class of people?
:drool:
Skipping a bit- One Monkie has the gall to say that if you are aroused by this literature, but it makes you uncomfortable that you are, maybe you should either not read it or seek therapy for it. She gets alerted on it. She asks why alert on a post that wasn't hurtful and why did the person feel it was Alert-able?
kickitup (125 posts)
136. I certainly don't, and as someone with a graduate degree in literary studies I have been trained . .to ask such questions about literature. I didn't realize asking such questions was so controversial.
No shit.
BainsBane (27,662 posts)
166. I see it as part of the anti-intellectualism that so pervades American society these days.
Then apart from that, some see self-reflection as a sign of weakness and use it as an opportunity for attack. That has happened to me on a few occasions.
:thatsright:
NanceGreggs (15,105 posts)
222. I am not saying characters cannot be studied. What I AM saying is that I am not interested in discussions that "study" Christian Gray. My only reason for getting into this discussion was in response to someone's assertion that this book is about "rape and domestic abuse".
::)
BainsBane (27,662 posts)
231. Such compassion
In another post you claim you are only interested in discussing whether there is a rape in the story, but suddenly you can't resist sticking the knife in to another member. I hope you're proud of yourself.
Naturally you want someone who has read the book and sites research on it to stay away. Your response only highlights how little you have to contribute to the substance of the argument.
Speaking of having very little to contribute of substance...
BainsBane (27,662 posts)
81. Interesting how the rape you claim never occured
is described upthread by a reader as taking place in chapter 12. http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=5298532 I'll also note you had no criticism
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=5297876
of any of the other threads where the OP clearly did not read the book but instead insist critiques of it were about controlling what consenting adults did in their private lives, while clearly that is not the content of the vast majority of critiques.
Redqueen was the one most vocal about the fact the sex described was not consensual, which is how I happened to decide to look into it. Those of course are "facts" that won't concern you, since it appears the content of discussion and of the book is actual far less consequential to you than incredibly boring personal grudge you insist on maintaining. I have to congratulate you on your commitment to that. I myself can't bother to nurture such things.
and also stated earlier that it was consensual. BUT- you haven't read the book in order to know.
BainsBane (27,662 posts)
62. Nor have all the people who posted in support of the book. Why on God's earth would I read that defilement of the English language? The point is this. All thee endless threads complaining that people are criticizing consensual sex are not in fact accurately conveying the arguments being made. Perhaps that doesn't matter to you. It does to me.
:argh:
Harmony Blue (3,836 posts)
31. Trying to shame and control what women like and want to do sounds a lot like Patriarchy to me.
BainsBane (27,662 posts)
71. And how exactly am I "trying to shame women"?
You embarrass women, not shame them.
alp227 (26,651 posts)
147. False equivalence - when women are conned into liking a book that allegedly glamourizes rape...WHICH is the more "patriarchal" situation?
...because women are stupid...
alp227 (26,651 posts)
189. Slick marketing and taking advantage of a populace that is not well-informed about sex, especially thanks to sex-phobia promoted by religious fundamentalists that is so influential our public schools avoid teaching a reality-based sex ed curriculum for fear of pissing off parents.
uh... what?
BainsBane (27,662 posts)
191. Regardless, my OP makes no comment on what women should or shouldn't 't like It's about the discussion that people voicing critiques are objecting to consensual sexuality activity between two adults and that it is standard consensual BDSM.
People like all kinds of crap. I see no reason why this should be any different.
Um... the whole tome of your OP is negative, that, by proxy, leads the reader to the conclusion that women should not like it.
BainsBane (27,662 posts)
95. Nope, but according to another OP critiquing such a story amounts to trying to control the sex lives of two consenting adults
:o
BainsBane (27,662 posts)
66. There are at lest three different versions of the book. The earlier versions may have been different. It was first posted online as fan fiction.
The people defending the book haven't read it either. The point of my OP is that those who are running around accusing feminists of criticizing consensual sex are distorting what the actual argument is. I don't claim personal knowledge of the book. However, I also don't think critique of rape should be denounced as criticizing consensual sex.
I agree that the Bachelor is incredibly offensive. I won't read Fifty Shades because of his appalling abuse of the English language.
She is so above it all... but, that is NOT what her OP was about.
NaturalHigh (6,768 posts)
115. Actually your OP criticizes a work of fiction. A book. Nobody was harmed in the writing of the book. Nobody here is in favor of rape. I would think that much is obvious.
Doesn't matter.
BainsBane (27,662 posts)
117. Yes, but yesterday you seemed to think the controversy was about criticizing the sex lives of actual human beings, consenting adults, and IIRC, you scoffed at reminders that people were critiquing a book. I know you rec'd a thread that threated those characters as if they were real people.
:mental:
BainsBane (27,662 posts)
145. Many who have read the book disagree with you And one quotes the rape scene above.
newcriminal (1,830 posts)
160. I got my book.
If we are still talking about chapter twelve, here you go.
"My inner goddess glows so bright she could light up Portland. He stops kissing me, and opening my eyes, I find him gazing down at me. "Trust me?" he breathes.
I nod, wide eyed, my heart bouncing off my ribs, my blood thundering though my body."......
"Oh, ...please.......Christian...Sir......Please." He's driving me insane. I hear him smile.......
I long to touch him.
"I want to touch you," I breathe. "I know." he murmurs.........
"Please." I beg, and he finally takes pity on me.
"How shall I **** you, Anastasia?"
Oh...my body starts to quiver. He stills again.
"Please."
"What do you want, Anastasia?"
"You...now." I cry........
After they're done:
"That was really nice," I whisper, smiling coyly.
This is not a rape, and it makes me angry because actual rape is an awful disgusting thing that in noway looks anything like this.
Bainesbane cannot be wrong:
BainsBane (27,662 posts)
167. Paperback version? It also appears there are multiple versions of the book, and that some read an early online version. I can't claim to speak for the book myself. I haven't read it, and the excerpts and readings I've seen only affirm my determination not to do so, not because of its content but its vile writing.
validation that you are an idiot.
BainsBane (27,662 posts)
169. Based on your interpetation? I don't think so. Feel free to post your own OP celebrating the virtues of crap fanfiction.
BainsBane (27,662 posts)
176. None of the other OPs about this book, except for one, have read it either and the one who did read described it as "rapey." I mentioned the fact that there are three versions as possible explanation for the differing interpretations. That your response is that I am "crying rape" because I don't hold you above others who have read the book is not surprising consider the source. People who regularly write thoughtful posts disagree with your interpretation. I know and respect those posters. I see NO reason to take your word over theirs. Because you say something does not make it true.
I made clear in the OP I hadn't read the book. That you missed that doesn't exactly instill me with confidence of your interpretation of this book.
If a bunch of people tell me the sky is red I am not going to believe them simply because they have written thoughtful posts numerous times in the past.
newcriminal (1,830 posts)
179. I'm talking about your ORIGINAL POST you said,"Fifty Shades of Grey depicts RAPE"..... and it doesn't. I'm talking about you not reading it. You not them....YOU.
BainsBane (27,662 posts)
183. Others who have read the book disagree. Clearly people see the book differently. There are numerous articles posted about the rape and abuse in the book. You expect me to ignore all of that because you said so? Why? What makes you more credible than everyone else? (That is a rhetorical question, BTW)
The key point, however, is that some have falsely claimed that people are objecting to consensual BDSM behavior. The objections raised are that the activity described is non-consensual and abusive. In fact, a number of critics in the BDSM community have said the main character is portrayed as an abusive control freak and they find that association with them to be offensive.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=5298604
You can talk at me all you want. That does not mean I need to follow your orders. You made your point and others made theirs.
Lastly, a differing interpretation of a book in not a false rape allegation. Charging me with "crying rape" is offensive. This is a book. It is not a criminal case, and I am not on trial.
To quote a famous leftist, It's not RAPE rape.
mainer (7,783 posts)
242. I have read the real book. Not some online version which no longer exists.
I read it because I'm in the book industry and I know one editor who acquired it, and another editor who refused to publish it. I wanted to know what the controversy was. Everyone involved in its publication knew it would make the company a lot of money because at that point it was already an international phenomenon in the fan fiction community.
The existing print version is the only one that matters, because it's the one that most people have read. You're complaining about what is essentially an early draft. I shudder to think about the early drafts of many, many books -- they're probably atrocious things that the author never wants to see the light of day.
BainsBane (27,662 posts)
245. I don't actually know
As I've been quite clear, I have not read the book. I have read a series of accounts describing the rape, including by people who read the print version. I suggested the possibility of people having read different versions as a potential explanation for why interpretations differ. It may simply be that some do not see an act where a man breaks into a woman's house without her consent and then has intercourse with her as being rape. The fact she came to "want it" is the stuff of fictional rape culture, the sort of thing that teaches men that women actually want sex, even if they don't give consent at the outset. In real life, is seldom transpires as the protagonist fantasizes: http://www.democraticunderground.com/10025300083
I have seen excerpts of the print version, and if that is what the industry calls an improved work, they clearly have little respect for the English language or the genre of the novel. It is no doubt about commerce like anything else. It makes a profit, just like Coke, Pepsi, or Koch industry paper towels, and really that's all that counts under capitalism. If assault and abuse are profitable, they must be okay. It's the American way.
Again, BB... you DON'T KNOW because you haven't researched it, read it, KNOW. You take someone's cherry picked on-line article that lines up with your predisposed concept that all sex is rape and ran with it- and got called out. THEN you refuse to back down but come up with a crazy 'theory' of multiple versions of the book to justify the RAPE, get called on it, then state it's about how people see it differently...
****, you are a stupid bitch.
It is a shitty book, badly written and generally crap. However- I did read all three... for research...
:whistling:
-
I'd say, skimming the PhDD's remarks, that it would be far, far too much to ask Coach to 'take one for the team.'
My advice is now this:
:runaway: :runaway: :runaway: :runaway: :runaway: :runaway: :runaway: :runaway: :runaway: :runaway: :runaway:
:runaway: :runaway: :runaway: :runaway: :runaway: :runaway: :runaway: :runaway: :runaway: :runaway: :runaway:
:runaway: :runaway: :runaway: :runaway: :runaway: :runaway: :runaway: :runaway: :runaway: :runaway: :runaway:
:runaway: :runaway: :runaway: :runaway: :runaway: :runaway: :runaway: :runaway: :runaway: :runaway: :runaway:
:runaway: :runaway: :runaway: :runaway: :runaway: :runaway: :runaway: :runaway: :runaway: :runaway: :runaway: