The Conservative Cave
Current Events => General Discussion => Topic started by: afterdark on December 01, 2013, 11:55:43 AM
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I am new here, just need some insight into a discussion from last night.
In summary, someone (a solid right of center moderate, similar to myself) presented a theory that the eventual socialization of the United States is inevitable as American society "evolves". Europe was cited as an example. He claimed that capitalism will eventually destroy itself here in the US. As we all know, the majority of the voting population (<50%) increasingly view the mid to upper middle-class and wealthier (who comprise roughly the top ~20% of earners in the USA) as privileged. People in the bottom 80% increasingly view themselves as oppressed, disadvantaged, poor, unfairly treated, and generally stuck. Regardless of their drive, laziness, capability, etc...these people make up the majority now, no matter how we look at it. They continue to drift towards the left, and their socialist ideals. They have the voting numbers. They are jealous. They feel a general sense of entitlement.
I have previously had similar thoughts on the subject, simply from a logical/mathematical perspective.
How can this be overcome? Are we F-ed regardless? Is an increasingly socialized society inevitable?
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You will have to wait a few minutes until Vesta gets up. Please be patient, we are here to help you.
While we're waiting, how do you feel about Ron Paul?
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You will have to wait a few minutes until Vesta gets up. Please be patient, we are here to help you.
While we're waiting, how do you feel about Ron Paul?
A shift towards Socialism is only inevitable if people don't stand up to the people trying to impose it on us.
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How can this be overcome? Are we F-ed regardless? Is an increasingly socialized society inevitable?
I will only last until it all implodes. Socialist policies are destructive and immoral and irrational.
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Short answer is no...long answer will depend on whether the boiling frog wakes up and starts voting.
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The noob has a point, the number of Obamaphone voters has grown, and continues to grow, so there is a real danger that more socialists will be elected. We have to fight harder than we ever have before in order to vote in people who will protect freedom and not hand out more freebies to the Obamaphone crowd.
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We have to fight harder than we ever have before in order to vote in people who will protect freedom and not hand out more freebies to the Obamaphone crowd.
Kind of hard to get your message out, when the left owns the media, schools, etc. and is better at getting out the vote.
The R's are more interested in fighting with each other.
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You might find that you will get more responses to your post if you give an introduction thread first....Forum > The Bar > Introductions & Subsequent Welcomes. At the least you "might" get a warmer reception.
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Kind of hard to get your message out, when the left owns the media, schools, etc. and is better at getting out the vote.
The R's are more interested in fighting with each other.
All valid points.
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Kind of hard to get your message out, when the left owns the media, schools, etc. and is better at getting out the vote.
The R's are more interested in fighting with each other.
Exactly. I believe we are going to become a socialist country if not worse. Not so much due to the DUmmies, but due to our own stupidity. About 15% of Conservatives will not vote unless they get everything their way, usually single issue voters. Their way isn't going to happen; thus they are happy destroying the country thinking they are doing the right thing. When this group would rather have a Muslim than deign to vote for a foul Mormon for example, it speaks volumes. (Yes, Romeny sucked, but anyone was better than the 0.)
To succeed we must ban together to get the best we can that represents the majority. All for one and one for all… and all that rot. Sometimes I think it is moles putting this garbage in Conservative's heads to get them to stay home on election day. Others, I realize we are nuttier than those on the DUmp to cut off our noses to spite our faces.
Stick a fork in us. We're done.
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Exactly. I believe we are going to become a socialist country if not worse. Not so much due to the DUmmies, but due to our own stupidity. About 15% of Conservatives will not vote unless they get everything their way, usually single issue voters. Their way isn't going to happen; thus they are happy destroying the country thinking they are doing the right thing. When this group would rather have a Muslim than deign to vote for a foul Mormon for example, it speaks volumes. (Yes, Romeny sucked, but anyone was better than the 0.)
To succeed we must ban together to get the best we can that represents the majority. All for one and one for all… and all that rot. Sometimes I think it is moles putting this garbage in Conservative's heads to get them to stay home on election day. Others, I realize we are nuttier than those on the DUmp to cut off our noses to spite our faces.
Stick a fork in us. We're done.
That will happen, in a perfectly bad world.
This world is anything but perfect. All sorts of variables may come up--the nuclear 'surrender' to the Iranians markedly increases the chances of a nuclear war in the Middle East. The Saudis are buying Pakistani nukes, the Jordanians and Egyptians will want them soon (they're probably in touch with A.Q. Khan as I type this), and let's remember that the Libyans had the beginnings of a nuclear program. Add to that "the Un" in NoKo, the Chinese-Japanese/Taiwanese/Korean spat (which the Aussies seem to have an interest in), and the Russians wanting everyone to bow to them,the reemergence of a Socialist group of nations in South America, and the future is anything but certain.
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Ron Paul was just a just a big distraction.
His conservative ideas outweighed his crazy ideas, and he would have been a much better choice over BHO. But all he ever did was pull votes away from the establishment, as did Ross Perot.
You will have to wait a few minutes until Vesta gets up. Please be patient, we are here to help you.
While we're waiting, how do you feel about Ron Paul?
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As many philosophers, economists, and historians have observed, when the majority realize the popular vote can be a vehicle to plunder the public treasury and use it to transfer wealth to themselves, the process of doing so is inexorable and irresistible in a democratic form of government. Sadly, we have entered that phase.
There will be a day of reckoning for this irresponsible but irresistible impulse, but for now it will get worse with periodic swings to rationality when the government oversteps the trend by imposing the punitive effects of Socialism on the majority, as is the case with Obamacare. Still, the long-term trend is to the bad side. It's a trend that leads to either total collapse of the democratic forms into a dictatorship that realigns revenue, benefits, and economic viability (Chile post-Allende) - or a creeping ineffectiveness combined with an insatiable demand for revenue that renders the State an international nullity in perpetual economic doldrums (Modern Italy).
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I am new here, just need some insight into a discussion from last night.
In summary, someone (a solid right of center moderate, similar to myself) presented a theory that the eventual socialization of the United States is inevitable as American society "evolves". Europe was cited as an example. He claimed that capitalism will eventually destroy itself here in the US. As we all know, the majority of the voting population (<50%) increasingly view the mid to upper middle-class and wealthier (who comprise roughly the top ~20% of earners in the USA) as privileged. People in the bottom 80% increasingly view themselves as oppressed, disadvantaged, poor, unfairly treated, and generally stuck. Regardless of their drive, laziness, capability, etc...these people make up the majority now, no matter how we look at it. They continue to drift towards the left, and their socialist ideals. They have the voting numbers. They are jealous. They feel a general sense of entitlement.
I have previously had similar thoughts on the subject, simply from a logical/mathematical perspective.
How can this be overcome? Are we F-ed regardless? Is an increasingly socialized society inevitable?
The answer can be found in four words:
"Who is John Galt?"
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The answer can be found in four words:
"Who is John Galt?"
Yep. Or as the Pittstain might say, "Pew. Pew. Pew."
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Oh, the country might tinker with it for a while, until the people who thought they were getting free sparkly unicorns just end up with a handful of horseshit.
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We have a markedly short-sighted populace that continues to look at Europe as the "model to beat all models" -- this despite all of the economic catastrophes illustrated by Greece, Ireland, Spain, et. al.
How ANYBODY in this country could think that Europe has the answers to our problems is a complete mystery to me.
I think I need to research the entire "skittle-shitting pony" meme....
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I am new here, just need some insight into a discussion from last night.
In summary, someone (a solid right of center moderate, similar to myself) presented a theory that the eventual socialization of the United States is inevitable as American society "evolves". Europe was cited as an example. He claimed that capitalism will eventually destroy itself here in the US. As we all know, the majority of the voting population (<50%) increasingly view the mid to upper middle-class and wealthier (who comprise roughly the top ~20% of earners in the USA) as privileged. People in the bottom 80% increasingly view themselves as oppressed, disadvantaged, poor, unfairly treated, and generally stuck. Regardless of their drive, laziness, capability, etc...these people make up the majority now, no matter how we look at it. They continue to drift towards the left, and their socialist ideals. They have the voting numbers. They are jealous. They feel a general sense of entitlement.
I have previously had similar thoughts on the subject, simply from a logical/mathematical perspective.
How can this be overcome? Are we F-ed regardless? Is an increasingly socialized society inevitable?
I am going with Tytler here. This quote has been attributed to others but the important thing its accuracy (emphasis added):
A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over lousy fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship. The average of the world's great civilizations before they decline has been 200 years. These nations have progressed in this sequence: From bondage to spiritual faith; from faith to great courage; from courage to liberty; from liberty to abundance; from abundance to selfishness; from selfishness to Complacency; from complacency to apathy; from apathy to dependency; from dependency back again to bondage.
Guess which cycle we are in?
To put it another way: When one must rob Peter to pay Paul, one can be assured of Paul's support (origin lost to the mists of time).
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We have a markedly short-sighted populace that continues to look at Europe as the "model to beat all models" -- this despite all of the economic catastrophes illustrated by Greece, Ireland, Spain, et. al.
How ANYBODY in this country could think that Europe has the answers to our problems is a complete mystery to me.
I think I need to research the entire "skittle-shitting pony" meme....
HI5 Yes I can't tell you how many DUmmies I have talked to that have said to me "look at Europe". I know European's ( Dutch ,French, German,English,Belgian ..and some Americans that lived in Portugal ) yes for the lurking DUmmies that would be peeps that LIVE or LIVED in Europe, they say its not what its cracked up to be. So Go F**k yourself!
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I am going with Tytler here. This quote has been attributed to others but the important thing its accuracy (emphasis added):
Guess which cycle we are in?
To put it another way: When one must rob Peter to pay Paul, one can be assured of Paul's support (origin lost to the mists of time).
Nope Peter shot Paul and the robbers...well thats what I will do.
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Nope Peter shot Paul and the robbers...well thats what I will do.
Hmmm.. maybe a new quote "shooting Paul to pay Peter."
Up there with my other new favourite quote: "Moron-enabled."
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We have a markedly short-sighted populace that continues to look at Europe as the "model to beat all models" -- this despite all of the economic catastrophes illustrated by Greece, Ireland, Spain, et. al.
How ANYBODY in this country could think that Europe has the answers to our problems is a complete mystery to me.
I think I need to research the entire "skittle-shitting pony" meme....
They THINK it because the MSM/DNC (but I repeat myself) has TOLD them what to think. Most Americans don't see the day-to-day lives of most Euros. They get this rosy picture of something like western Germany; decent wages, modern, etc., not realizing that German cities (and most of Europe, for that matter) is expensive as HELL. I knew a guy when I was in the Navy who ended up with orders to London--he saw how much he would be getting in COLA and thought he was getting a great deal, until he looked at the cost of living there.
I've never been stationed there, but I'm sure that TRG and you could give excellent examples of just how hard it would be to live off the economy would be if you're making what the locals make. I know what costs were like in Japan, Korea, etc., and there's no way in hell I'd want to live that kind of lifestyle.
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His conservative ideas outweighed his crazy ideas,
You've got that backwards n00b.
and he would have been a much better choice over BHO.
It's a draw. Both would have been equally destructive to our way of life as we know it.
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Yep. Or as the Pittstain might say, "Pew. Pew. Pew."
That's only 3 words, but equally or more powerful.
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Is a shift to socialism inevitable? ...Yes, as long as there is a DUmmie left alive...OR...as long as some form of capitalism survives to finance socialism.
One has to die and we know which one is being attacked by the socialism disease.
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They THINK it because the MSM/DNC (but I repeat myself) has TOLD them what to think. Most Americans don't see the day-to-day lives of most Euros. They get this rosy picture of something like western Germany; decent wages, modern, etc., not realizing that German cities (and most of Europe, for that matter) is expensive as HELL. I knew a guy when I was in the Navy who ended up with orders to London--he saw how much he would be getting in COLA and thought he was getting a great deal, until he looked at the cost of living there.
I've never been stationed there, but I'm sure that TRG and you could give excellent examples of just how hard it would be to live off the economy would be if you're making what the locals make. I know what costs were like in Japan, Korea, etc., and there's no way in hell I'd want to live that kind of lifestyle.
What the German locals live under:
1. Unless you make a shitload of money, don't even think of having a car. Take public transportation (it's admittedly a lot better than what's available in the U.S., but then again, Germany's a lot smaller too). Gasoline is taxed to the ridiculous point and then beyond, meaning if you can't afford the gas to put in the car and the insurance, see the above about public transportation.
2. Unless you make an even bigger shitload of money, don't even think of owning a house. Most people in the larger cities rent apartments. I remember one gal who actually heated her apartment with COAL. And thought nothing of it.
3. "Handy's" (what the Germans call a cell phone) aren't provided by the gubmint. You want one? With a data plan? Better have yet another shitload of money.
4. Taxes -- whoa, now there's a good topic. Mehrwertsteuer, or the "added value tax" is 19%. And we bitch about 9.25% in Tennessee. Payroll taxes - 41% in Germany (15% for the alleged "free" socialized medicine) and 26% for social security (retirement plus unemployment).
Add all that up and you can see why most Germans don't have our X-boxes, our SUVs, our big-assed houses, our cell phones with the data plan, and 55" TV sets with the $150 cable bill.
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What the German locals live under:
1. Unless you make a shitload of money, don't even think of having a car. Take public transportation (it's admittedly a lot better than what's available in the U.S., but then again, Germany's a lot smaller too). Gasoline is taxed to the ridiculous point and then beyond, meaning if you can't afford the gas to put in the car and the insurance, see the above about public transportation.
Awhile back I made friends with a couple from Sweden. We were talking about menus or recipes and they mentioned how they don't keep much food on hand. They said they have to shop almost every day, because they have to use the bus to go to the market and can only get what they can carry.
That made me realize something I take for granted. I hate shopping, so I like to do a large shopping when I have to go. It would drive me nuts to have to take a bus to the store everyday.
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Awhile back I made friends with a couple from Sweden. We were talking about menus or recipes and they mentioned how they don't keep much food on hand. They said they have to shop almost every day, because they have to use the bus to go to the market and can only get what they can carry.
That made me realize something I take for granted. I hate shopping, so I like to do a large shopping when I have to go. It would drive me nuts to have to take a bus to the store everyday.
It actually fits with the traditional European shopping style, which was for the housewife to go to the local market every day. American shopping styles and job patterns are pretty different; it doesn't bother the Europeans because it fits their traditional pattern. Even their fridges and freezers are small, like large dorm fridges (Table-top height) here, because of that pattern.
Eupher's on the money about the car thing, though a great many middle-class people do have them - however, they are not used for long-distance driving very often basis because of the brutal fuel prices, and commutes that are considered routine here would be totally out of the question there.
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What the German locals live under:
1. Unless you make a shitload of money, don't even think of having a car. Take public transportation (it's admittedly a lot better than what's available in the U.S., but then again, Germany's a lot smaller too). Gasoline is taxed to the ridiculous point and then beyond, meaning if you can't afford the gas to put in the car and the insurance, see the above about public transportation.
2. Unless you make an even bigger shitload of money, don't even think of owning a house. Most people in the larger cities rent apartments. I remember one gal who actually heated her apartment with COAL. And thought nothing of it.
3. "Handy's" (what the Germans call a cell phone) aren't provided by the gubmint. You want one? With a data plan? Better have yet another shitload of money.
4. Taxes -- whoa, now there's a good topic. Mehrwertsteuer, or the "added value tax" is 19%. And we bitch about 9.25% in Tennessee. Payroll taxes - 41% in Germany (15% for the alleged "free" socialized medicine) and 26% for social security (retirement plus unemployment).
Add all that up and you can see why most Germans don't have our X-boxes, our SUVs, our big-assed houses, our cell phones with the data plan, and 55" TV sets with the $150 cable bill.
Even the most supposedly "poor" in the US, they have all that and more.
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There are a lot more diesel cars and SUVs over here. Gas runs about €1.50 a liter.
There's also a lot more older cars on the road. If you see a German with a new car...they're leasing it 9 tomes out of 10.
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It actually fits with the traditional European shopping style, which was for the housewife to go to the local market every day. American shopping styles and job patterns are pretty different; it doesn't bother the Europeans because it fits their traditional pattern. Even their fridges and freezers are small, like large dorm fridges (Table-top height) here, because of that pattern.
Eupher's on the money about the car thing, though a great many middle-class people do have them - however, they are not used for long-distance driving very often basis because of the brutal fuel prices, and commutes that are considered routine here would be totally out of the question there.
I can't even BEGIN to consider what it would cost me to drive back and forth to work in Europe, 45 miles each way in a full-sized pickup.
And pulling a camper? Yeah, don't see too many of those in Europe, do ya? Wonder why?
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I can't even BEGIN to consider what it would cost me to drive back and forth to work in Europe, 45 miles each way in a full-sized pickup.
And pulling a camper? Yeah, don't see too many of those in Europe, do ya? Wonder why?
Yeah that...though the only full-size pickups I ever saw over there belonged to GIs, who could get subsidized gas for them. Outside of commercial vehicles, anything with an engine over about three liters is rare as hen's teeth.
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There are a lot more diesel cars and SUVs over here. Gas runs about €1.50 a liter.
There's also a lot more older cars on the road. If you see a German with a new car...they're leasing it 9 tomes out of 10.
A story with a happy lease ending.
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this country is screwed.
Kiss it goodbye.
The population is growing, the efficiency of the employee is improving.
The ratio of dead weight Americans to working Americans is growing.
This electorate will vote with their back pocket. They will vote for the most free shit.
And when the libtards cite Europe as an example... well I've been all over Europe including the Northern Europe socialist ones. And you know what? I didn't see any welfare sucking ghetto living baby making check cashing human debris there. None. I saw hordes of people dutifully riding their bikes to work on city streets in the morning and the Germans... lol they LIVE to work (meaning the real Germans, not the imported variety)
So yeah, the USA is screwed. Make a kindergarten class a democracy and give them a budget. The teacher will watch as the little crumbcrunchers drink soda, eat chips, crap on the floor, break windows, play video games and learn curse words. THAT'S the future of the US.
Here's how it's going down... if the Republicans can win in 2014 and 2016 they can delay the inevitable but by 2020 or 2024 the dead weight electorate will be heavy enough to tilt states like Florida, Texas and Arizona permanently. The Dems will take power and print money and give shit away for 4-8 years running business and economy into the ground and capital will leave the nation leaving behind a bunch of dead weight Americas with their hands out...
Within 30-40 years the USA will be weakened and be in austerity negotiations with the EU and China. Yeah, we're ****ed.
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this country is screwed.
Kiss it goodbye.
The population is growing, the efficiency of the employee is improving.
The ratio of dead weight Americans to working Americans is growing.
This electorate will vote with their back pocket. They will vote for the most free shit.
And when the libtards cite Europe as an example... well I've been all over Europe including the Northern Europe socialist ones. And you know what? I didn't see any welfare sucking ghetto living baby making check cashing human debris there. None. I saw hordes of people dutifully riding their bikes to work on city streets in the morning and the Germans... lol they LIVE to work (meaning the real Germans, not the imported variety)
So yeah, the USA is screwed. Make a kindergarten class a democracy and give them a budget. The teacher will watch as the little crumbcrunchers drink soda, eat chips, crap on the floor, break windows, play video games and learn curse words. THAT'S the future of the US.
Here's how it's going down... if the Republicans can win in 2014 and 2016 they can delay the inevitable but by 2020 or 2024 the dead weight electorate will be heavy enough to tilt states like Florida, Texas and Arizona permanently. The Dems will take power and print money and give shit away for 4-8 years running business and economy into the ground and capital will leave the nation leaving behind a bunch of dead weight Americas with their hands out...
Within 30-40 years the USA will be weakened and be in austerity negotiations with the EU and China. Yeah, we're ****ed.
Your enthusiasm is inspiring. :rolleyes: