The Conservative Cave
Current Events => The DUmpster => Topic started by: Ptarmigan on July 02, 2013, 09:49:30 AM
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alp227 (21,204 posts)
Why are so many Americans fearful/resentful of unions? [View all]
It seems that many of the "LIMITED GOVERNMENT"/"INDIVIDUAL LIBERTY" people out there are fine with being bossed around and strangled as long as it's their own boss at work putting the worker's survival on the line. Which is why you see those "at will employment" and "right to work" laws in Republican-controlled states (especially the former Confederate states in the Southeast and sadly former industrial states in the Great Lakes Region).
That's my intro to my post about public reaction to the Bay Area transit strike. Some of the comments after this Los Angeles Times article about the strike http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-ln-bart-strike-workers-20130701,0,1582152.story
I agree with everyone's post on here. All they do is complain, go on strikes, and make everyone else miserable. Not all employers give their employee raises nor do they need to provide excellent benefits. It's up to the individual to educate themselve and land a job that pays them well. If you're unhappy with the company you work for or you think you worth more than what you're paid, then find another job! That's what real hard working people do. They don't settle and they definitely don't pout. I HATE UNION WORKERS!!!
There are many people who can take over ur easy job easily, There are so many people who are unemployed and would kill for such job with a good pay.
For those of you who have observed the change in America after the Reagan years (Thom Hartmann has done so brilliantly), you probably aren't surprised that the general public lacks sympathy for union workers. I've seen online comments reacting to this strike actually say things like "unions are outdated" and "unions should be banned".
I wonder why people think that way.
Is it because they're conditioned to submit, submit, submit to what their bosses give 'em and just "be good workers" instead of standing up for their rights? Listen to this Hartmann caller and figure it out:
Yep that caller really said "be a good worker" is the way for workers to get their rights.
Or do people who trash union workers not understand that because of people who went on strike for the past century or so EVERY worker out there gets benefits like 8-hour workdays, sick leave, etc.?
Is there a sort of authoritarianism that upper class Americans have or something? Arrogance? All their talking points are, basically:
- Get another job instead of going on strike or complaining
- Be a good worker
People are sick and tired of unions doing damage to the economy. They had their place a long time ago, but that was than.
LWolf (36,464 posts)
1. Because they are susceptible to propaganda. nt
Like your kind.
Sherman A1 (12,007 posts)
3. Precisely
You have hit the nail on the head.
Jenoch (1,970 posts)
2. There is a problem in some places
with the public unions. The retirement benefits are draining the resources of some communities.
Doctor_J (26,710 posts)
13. Tough shit. These workers took concessions along the way in exchange for those pensions
so now they are owed that money, under contract.
MichiganVote (19,148 posts)
33. The FAILURE of our Government to COLLECT taxes from Corporations/business/1%
are draining the resources--not Unions. You have bought into the media PR bought and paid for by the US of Corporations.
Pelican (598 posts)
7. Horror stories about incompetence being rewarded...
... along with a general perception that it will raise their personal costs.
Many of the folks you are referring to believe that they are smart enough and capable enough to earn individually as opposed to collectively.
Taft_Bathtub (206 posts)
11. Cold War Propaganda plus media brainwashing
Since the 1940s the public has been indoctrinated that unions are havens for communists and agitators who just want to take money from workers. In addition, the media always frames unions in a negative light, and also describes strikes as being between "unions and the company" and not management versus labor.
Mix all that in with some Horatio Algerism (If I just work hard enough I can be the CEO one day!) and you have a climate very hostile to unions.
Doctor_J (26,710 posts)
14. Like most of the devolution of the US, it can be traced to Big Media
as others have said in this thread. The propaganda is relentless, and effective. I would add that I am sometimes flabbergasted by how many DUers let it slip that they are Hate Radio and Fox "News" addicts.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=3146956
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Results.
Hostess
GM
US Steel
Federal government
State government
County government
City government
Tens of thousands of medium and small businesses
The list of destruction goes on forever.
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Quote
MichiganVote (19,148 posts)
33. The FAILURE of our Government to COLLECT IMPOSE MOREtaxes from Corporations/business/1%
are draining the resources--not Unions. You have bought into the media PR bought and paid for by the US of Corporations.
Fixed to reflect the truth.
Taft_Bathtub (206 posts)
11. Cold War Propaganda plus media brainwashing Media??? :rotf:
Since the 1940s the public has been indoctrinated that unions are havens for communists and agitators Pretty much true. who just want to take money from workers. Absolutely true. In addition, the media always frames unions in a negative light, and also describes strikes as being between "unions and the company" and not management versus labor. unions are big business out for themselves. Labor needs a union to protect them from their union.
Has the Neckbeard, checked in yet?
Mix all that in with some Horatio Algerism (If I just work hard enough I can be the CEO one day!) and you have a climate very hostile to unions.
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Union bosses are out to take care of ... UNION BOSSES! They don't give a damn about their members;
(http://cdn01.dailycaller.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/Sleeping-on-March-27-20121-e1369769295172.jpg)
There's one of your union bosses. Look at him! Wanna know how many hours he works in a day to help his members?
Those political rivals accuse Mr. Rosenthal of showing up at work — after a union-covered lunch — at 2 p.m., taking a snooze with a full soda, then heading home at 4 p.m. before the traffic starts.
That's right, 2 hours a day. TWO HOURS A DAY!!
Look at him.
(http://dailycaller.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/Sleeping-on-March-27-2012-e1369769004788.jpg)
Just look.
(http://dailycaller.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/Sleeping-on-May-16-2012-e1369769032125.jpg)
http://dailycaller.com/2013/05/28/union-boss-under-fire-for-either-being-too-fat-too-lazy-too-overpaid-and-on-too-many-painkillers/
What is his excuse??
But it’s OK for an executive to take “power naps,†Mr. Rosenthal counters — especially when the executive is on pain medication for falling from a McDonald’s chair that broke because that executive was too big for it.
Mr. Rosenthal, it seems, sees victimization.
“I’m 60 years old, so if I eat during my lunch hour and take a little medication, can’t I close my eyes?†The Post reports he said. “Is it so outrageous?â€
Go ahead, spin that for me. Think he's an isolated incident? I don't.
KC
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Ya know, when was the last time these thugs gave a shit about their members? They take their money, give it to DemoncRats, tell them how to vote, tell them what protest to show up at, and in turn give it back to the same low lifes in cash and contracts.
Who owns GM and Chrysler now? How many millions have been wasted on union "Green Energy" projects that have gone belly up on our dime? I think by last count it's close to 20!
Gee, I can't imagine why we think unions are only interested in making Boss Hog richer?
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http://www.usnews.com/opinion/mzuckerman/articles/2010/05/14/the-crippling-price-of-public-employee-unions
Read the fourth paragraph (and beyond), DUmmies.
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And it seems the DU goons already saw this story;
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=thread&address=10022953283
About a dozen replies and ALL of them trying to make excuses. Wonder why that thread wasn't a 100 pages long?
KC
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Why are union members so resentful of unions?
http://freebeacon.com/a-political-act/
California teachers suing to end mandatory union dues
<snippets>
A group of California teachers is preparing for a Supreme Court battle to overturn forced union dues in a groundbreaking lawsuits filed in June.
For nearly three decades, the Supreme Court has allowed closed-shop unionism, in which public employees must pay dues to labor groups handling collective bargaining negotiations.
The Supreme Court established Beck Rights in 1988 allowing workers to opt out of union dues for political activities, while continuing to pay for union negotiating expenses. The teachers are hoping to take that battle one step further by putting an end to all coercive union dues.
“Our efforts are not anti-union; we are trying to solidify the First Amendment rights of public employees to freely assemble,†CIR president Terry Pell said.
“Public-sector unions have the right under the First Amendment to express their views on political and social issues without government interference … But employees who choose not to join a union have the same rights,†Alito ruled. “The First Amendment creates a forum in which all may seek, without hindrance or aid from the State, to move public opinion and achieve their political goals.â€
The California plaintiffs take this reasoning a step further. They argue that negotiations between teachers unions and state officials are a political act in and of themselves. Paying money to aid in union negotiations, Pell says, violates the rights of teachers who object to union goals of maximizing expensive benefits, such as California’s underfunded pension plan.
“All public-sector union bargaining—on issues like pensions and pay and leave and seniority rules—are claims on the public Treasury, an inherently political act,†Pell said. “Some union teachers may think this is a good thing, but our clients say that unions shouldn’t be collecting more and more of the public pie while the parents of their students are struggling.â€
The teachers are not alone in their fight. The National Right to Work Foundation, which won the Knox case, is waging a similar battle in Texas where six airline employees filed a class action suit challenging the concept of exclusive bargaining as an encroachment on the freedom of assembly and speech.
“Union bosses have abused their extraordinary government-granted power to automatically compel workers to fund their political activities unless workers object—a power granted to no other private organization in our country—for far too long,†Mark Mix, president of National Right to Work, said in a statement. “The First Amendment right of workers who refrain from union membership to automatically refrain from paying union dues at all and especially for politics is long overdue.â€
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Nearly a third of Oregon union workers want out
http://www.oregonlive.com/opinion/index.ssf/2013/06/nearly_a_third_of_oregon_union.html
Unions losing numbers, influence in the United States
http://www.bizjournals.com/denver/blog/broadway_17th/2013/02/unions-losing-numbers-influence-in.html?page=all
Unions suffer sharp decline in membership
http://www.denverpost.com/news/ci_22432193/unions-suffer-steep-decline-membership
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Intelligent people don't have to join a union to ensure salary/benefits. We can negotiate our own wages, vacation time, etc. And we aren't leeches on society when things don't go our way.
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Probably for the same reason rabbit parents fear weasels sneaking into their burrow and drinking the blood of their young. They're amoral plunderers who exist by taking from others.
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Probably for the same reason rabbit parents fear weasels Ptarmigans sneaking into their burrow and drinking the blood of their young. They're amoral plunderers who exist by taking from others.
FIFY
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A couple of names from the past helped...Ford Pinto/Escort or Chevy Vega.
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Many of the folks you are referring to believe that they are smart enough and capable enough to earn individually as opposed to collectively.
Thus confirming most govt workers are not smart or capable enough...
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Unions have deep roots in Communism.
It led to this:
http://www.cpusa.org/why-vote/
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My job is unionized and my choices are to join the union, or pay the union a fee that equals 75% of the union dues (the amount they claim is used to negotiate salaries) and not join the union. I figured if those were my choices, I might as well join the union so I could vote. Salaries are set strictly by experience, which is a big change from my previous job where annual raises were determined by how well you did at your annual review.
We recently completed contract negotiations, and they were threatening to strike if changes weren't made. I honestly could not in good conscience strike over the issues most of the nurses were having with the contract. One of the complaints I overheard was pure jealousy over how much the hospital CEO makes in comparison to the nurses. All I could think was "who cares," after all our salary is perfectly fair for the area.
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My job is unionized and my choices are to join the union, or pay the union a fee that equals 75% of the union dues (the amount they claim is used to negotiate salaries) and not join the union. I figured if those were my choices, I might as well join the union so I could vote. Salaries are set strictly by experience, which is a big change from my previous job where annual raises were determined by how well you did at your annual review.
We recently completed contract negotiations, and they were threatening to strike if changes weren't made. I honestly could not in good conscience strike over the issues most of the nurses were having with the contract. One of the complaints I overheard was pure jealousy over how much the hospital CEO makes in comparison to the nurses. All I could think was "who cares," after all our salary is perfectly fair for the area.
If you chose to not join the union, paying the 75% and the union called a strike, could you remain on the job?
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If you chose to not join the union, paying the 75% and the union called a strike, could you remain on the job?
You know what, that is an excellent question, and I actually don't know the answer. I'll have to do some research into that.
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The problem is pretty simple.
Most unions are not about workers, but are about politics. Nationally speaking, about half of the population aren't going to agree with the politics of most unions.
So, there is half of the support down the drain.
Many in the remaining half may not believe that politics belong in the workplace, even though they might agree with most of the union's positions. So vanishes another chunk of potential supporters.
Finally, there are those unions who are motivated by greed to strike at every opportunity, and they help create a hostile work environment, killing off more supporters.
So primitive, there's your answer.
:ownit:
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All union members I have ever met/worked with were some of the most vile, nastiest, and negative people I have ever dealt with. I grew up in Janesville, WI. A heavily unionized city. The union members wouldn't treat non-union workers like shit. I couldn't stand it when my dad would have his GM friend's over. I drove a Nissan and that was the END OF THE FREAKING WORLD to them. So you can only imagine the verbal assault I'd get. ::)
Those people piss me off so much. I'd never join a union if that's what it turns most people into. I know not everyone in a union is like that, but I've met A LOT of rotten apples.
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Because most unions have become little more than money making machines. Think of that flap not all that long ago in Michigan over the whole right to work deal. Unions were ticked off because under the deal, union members would only pay dues if they wanted to. Not banning dues altogether, but pay if you wanted. They completely flipped over it. Now, if you were a union boss who just wanted to look after the rights of the workers in your union, why would you almost have a stroke over an issue such as dues?
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I don't fear or hate credit unions, or student unions. I'm more than ambivalent on civil unions. When it comes to worker's unions I don't hate or fear them, I hate and fear what they do and can do.
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Read this: http://www.insidebayarea.com/opinion/ci_23577926/mercury-news-editorial?source=rss_viewed
and you'll see why we HATE unions.
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Read this: http://www.insidebayarea.com/opinion/ci_23577926/mercury-news-editorial?source=rss_viewed
and you'll see why we HATE unions.
Some people don't know when they have a good thing.
....and they think conservatives are the greedy ones.
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If you chose to not join the union, paying the 75% and the union called a strike, could you remain on the job?
At my last place of work there was a strong union presence (we don't have any closed shops, the great Baroness <-------- banned them), at one point there was a strike called and of those whom I knew where union members over half continued working.
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If you chose to not join the union, paying the 75% and the union called a strike, could you remain on the job?
You probably could but your car would need a great deal of body work after. :hammer:
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If you chose to not join the union, paying the 75% and the union called a strike, could you remain on the job?
Here's another side of that question; if you're paying the 75% and are non union and they call a strike and you walk, can you collect strike pay?
KC
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Here's another side of that question; if you're paying the 75% and are non union and they call a strike and you walk, can you collect strike pay?
KC
Only if you refused first, then decided you wanted too, and filed a greivence (sp?) for double pay..
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Two words:
Omaha Steve
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Read this: http://www.insidebayarea.com/opinion/ci_23577926/mercury-news-editorial?source=rss_viewed
and you'll see why we HATE unions.
How ironic this advertisement was plastered into the middle of the ad:
(http://ads.yldmgrimg.net/apex/mediastore/891d4830-9608-48a1-bdbf-4e823df11191)
(I don't know if that is one of those ever-changing gifs -- it should be an ad for Raider's tickets STARTING AT $250)
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Two words:
Omaha Steve
I'm with you. H5.
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Why are so many Americans fearful/resentful of unions?
Because they're so contemptible, like this crybaby, the crying guy from the total failure of a recall effort against the mighty governor Scott Walker:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jy8FSyI_Djg
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The only people that have reason to fear the unions, are its honest members.
http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/ny-rail-retirees-disability-scam-lose-benefits-19554753#.UdWR950o7Dc
Head line.
NY Rail Retirees in Disability Scam Lose Benefits
>snippage<
Two bits says the union tries to get their jobs back
The honest working man gets screwed by his/her "union" brothers/sisters.
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Unions are for the most part antiquated. They did a lot of good once, such as ending child labor and securing weekends off. Problem is, those were all decades ago. Unions haven't done anything of positive significance since then.
They have, in contrast, done a lot of harm in recent years. This is especially true of public- sector unions who hold entire populations of their area hostage to their demands when they strike. An example is the Wisconsin teacher's union strike; For weeks on end, children were deprived of an education because their union teachers cared more about increasingly fatter paychecks with zero accountability than about fulfilling their responsibility to provide a good education to the kids who were entrusted to them (Keep that in mind the next time some teacher is whining on the news about how they don't do it for the money, but because they supposedly love helping kids).
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Unions, used for their original intent, are merely a tool. They were means of giving the employee a voice. However, over the past several decades, they have become outdated, corrupt and a menace to society... (much like the government in many aspects). If used properly, I don't believe a Union could be classified "bad" just like I don't believe guns kill- people do. So... I will rant a little more...
I believe the reason they are still around is 2 fold. 1st- $$$. 2ND- "tradition." I will speak about the 2ND point directly from experience in my family. My mother is a teacher in Kansas. When she was hired, she was not given the option of joining a Union. Rather, the question was "Which of the two do you want to join?" Then, she was required by the State to pay monthly dues to this Union that supposedly voiced her concerns. Over the course of 25+ years with this Union, she received about 5% pay increase (give or take based on the State's budget) and several $100 insurance cost increase- all negotiated by her "voice." She never had the opportunity to negotiate her own worth. Then, one day, she had a legal dispute with her school and a child's family. Instead of the Union coming to her defense, which was the intention of the Union Rep, the whole issue was swept under the table. Thank goodness she did not receive a reprimand. But the issue was never resolved to her satisfaction either. If this Union had not been in place, she would have A) had the opportunity to show her worth thru her supervisor/ negotiate on an individual basis her pay and B) had the opportunity to hire her own representation that would have come to her defense with a vengeance. Why did she go with a Union? Because it was what was done. There was no other choice. Complete BS if you ask me.