ProSense (98,848 posts)
There is no Obama policy of spying on everyone and no domestic spying
Last edited Sat Jun 8, 2013, 11:59 AM USA/ET - Edit history (2)
Anyone pushing that claim is being completely disingenuous
First, there is the question of whom the surveillance targets. PRISM spies on Americans. The Director of National Intelligence emphasized yesterday that PRISM targets only " non-U.S. persons located outside the United States ." But the press release also acknowledges that "information about U.S. persons" may be "incidentally acquired" in such pursuits. Targeting is not the same as collecting; the program may "target" foreign persons, but "acquire" information on Americans.
http://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2013/06/prisms-legal-basis-how-we-got-here-and-what-we-can-do-to-get-back/276667/?google_editors_picks=true
To claim that it's a "domestic spying" program is implying that Americans are targeted. The piece does not say it targets Americans, and based on the release cited, it definitely does not:
June 6, 2013
DNI Statement on Activities Authorized Under Section 702 of FISA
The Guardian and The Washington Post articles refer to collection of communications pursuant to Section 702 of the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act. They contain numerous inaccuracies.
Section 702 is a provision of FISA that is designed to facilitate the acquisition of foreign intelligence information concerning non-U.S. persons located outside the United States. It cannot be used to intentionally target any U.S. citizen, any other U.S. person, or anyone located within the United States.
Activities authorized by Section 702 are subject to oversight by the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court, the Executive Branch, and Congress. They involve extensive procedures, specifically approved by the court, to ensure that only non-U.S. persons outside the U.S. are targeted, and that minimize the acquisition, retention and dissemination of incidentally acquired information about U.S. persons.
Section 702 was recently reauthorized by Congress after extensive hearings and debate.
Information collected under this program is among the most important and valuable foreign intelligence information we collect, and is used to protect our nation from a wide variety of threats.
The unauthorized disclosure of information about this important and entirely legal program is reprehensible and risks important protections for the security of Americans.
James R. Clapper, Director of National Intelligence
Ret. Adm. Dennis Blair, who served as President Obama’s DNI in 2009 and 2010, told NBC News that, in one instance in 2009, analysts entered a phone number into agency computers and “put one digit wrong,†and mined a large volume of information about Americans with no connection to terror. The matter was reported to the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court, whose judges required that all the data be destroyed, he said.
<...>
The Justice Department publicly confirmed to the New York Times in April 2009 that Holder had taken “comprehensive steps†to correct a problem in NSA collection after it “detected issues that raised concerns.†But department officials declined to discuss details about what was described at the time as the “over-collection†of information.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022968173
This is illegal domestic spying: http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022959557
There is no wiretapping, widescale or otherwise, of Americans ongoing, even with a warrant.
Obama: PRISM Doesn’t Apply To U.S. Citizens
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022965452
Warren Stupidity (32,169 posts)
1. keep telling yourself that.
ProSense (98,848 posts)
2. What, that facts matter? n/t
xtraxritical (3,124 posts)
76. You know folks it's the FBI that does the domestic spying, don't you?
premium (1,767 posts)
3. You're a hell of a lot more trusting of the govt. than I am.
I have a healty skepticism of anything the govt. says, especially concerning our intelligence agencies.
Sorry, I just don't believe what the NSA or the Admin. is saying about this phone records data collection.
premium (1,767 posts)
39. And therein lies the rub,
Last edited Sat Jun 8, 2013, 01:55 PM USA/ET - Edit history (1)
how do we know that they didn't leak this to Greenwald to cover for more clandestine, maybe illegal, maybe not, activities?
After the numerous revelations of the illegal activities of our intelligence services since the Church hearings in the 70's, I don't believe a word coming out any intelligence service.
And we're supposed to take the word of the Congress, whose approval rating is at a whopping 6%, who the majority of them are nothing more than bought and paid for stooges for the corps., that everything is hunky dory in NSA land?
Somehow, I don't think so.
dkf (32,940 posts)
60. DNI has determined there are cases where the constitution was violated but the admin is blocking
the cases from going to the normal court by using the "state secrets" privilege.
Moreover there are accusations FISA is using an unauthorized interpretation of the expanded FISA law, but again it can't be reviewed because the Admin is trying to keep this all in the FISA court which is an inescapable loop.
http://www.theverge.com/2013/6/7/4406800/editorial-nsa-surveillance-is-obamas-transparency-problem
L0oniX (17,662 posts)
43. We're suppost to trust those that don't trust us. Get it?
xtraxritical (3,124 posts)
79. Try Somalia if you don't trust government, they don't have one.
They have plenty of domestic terrorism and abuse though.
Laelth (13,733 posts)
4. Wow, Pro. You're working overtime today.
Admittedly, there is no illegal wiretapping. There may not be any wiretapping at all, but the public does not know that. There is no illegal domestic spying going on. That's because it's (presumably) legal now.
But ...
There definitely is a domestic spying program that is operating in the United States. Nothing you can say will change this fact. This quote from Maedhros makes clear why most of us feel that collecting all this data is, in fact, spying:
Sort of like being followed around by an agent and watched with binoculars all day. No personal information is accessed! No conversations were overheard! They just took note of where you went and to whom you talked.
They weren't spying on you!
I would note that President Obama could change all of this with the stroke of a pen. As President, he controls the executive branch. He could order the NSA to stop collecting all this data on American citizens. All he would have to do is sign the order.
Why he has not done so is the question.
ProSense (98,848 posts)
5. That's pure spin. n/t
premium (1,767 posts)
8. What's spin?
The fact that he could sign an EO prohibiting the NSA from collecting phone record data?
He could you know, so, why doesn't he do this and make this whole controversy go away?
ProSense (98,848 posts)
6. Let me address this:
"Admittedly, there is no illegal wiretapping. There may not be any wiretapping at all, but the public does not know that. "
There is no wiretapping, period. To then make the second point about public knowledge is to admit that people who claim that there is really have no basis for it. They're just making stuff up.
greytdemocrat (1,658 posts)
28. It always makes me smile
When people are this naive. Did Obama send you a personal email telling you so???
Good gravey...
Andy823 (4,727 posts)
64. Facts don't seem to work these days
Seems like no matter what the facts may say, there are a lot of people here that just can't get it through their heads they are not being wiretapped, the government really isn't watching every move they make, and all the BS that is being spewed about how "everyone" is being watched is simply more right wing BS being put out to try and divide the left, and sadly it seems to be working, at least on DU!
I appreciate your posts, and all the others who have been trying to get the "facts" out to people. As the old saying goes, you can lead a horse to water but you can't make them drink! Seems like you can show some people the facts, but you can't make them stop believing the worst about things, or from buying into the right wing spin!
reformist2 (4,131 posts)
7. I don't believe that. I think there are secret policies we don't know about.
midnight (23,700 posts)
10. Technically it is Bush's policy.....
Laelth (13,733 posts)
16. Not while Obama is President.
Obama owns this mess.
DisgustipatedinCA (5,596 posts)
15. You can't talk me into believing a steaming pile of shit is a rose
It's spying, and those defending it are representing the worst in acquiescence and soulless political calculations. You hit bedrock for anyone who tries to adhere to a moral code, and you haven't yet understood that there's no leeway for bullshit redefinitions when our founding principles are at stake.
meaculpa2011 (317 posts)
18. Founding principles? Quaint anachronisms.
There was no illegal wiretapping? There were no illegal internments of Japanese Americans, either.
The outrage is not that they are doing anything illegal, it's that they have made the complete erosion of our freedoms perfectly legal. And we are perfectly comfortable in our surrender.
And yes, I am paranoid. In this environment it just makes good sense.
This is a huge campfire. I smell a purge coming at DU. :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Oh yeah... Pretty sure Laelth just signed her own death warrant. Can't call The Holy Won of Shitcago out by name like that.
Nads is getting close to it too. Check it out... bout halfway down:
Nads flirting with granite (http://www.conservativecave.com/index.php/topic,87802.0.html)
That racist. Or perhaps that should be "rasist."
(http://www.welovetheiraqiinformationminister.com/images/07-minister.jpg)
EOM.
When Stalin put the dissidents in to the Siberian gulags the really stupid would ask "Does Stalin know about this?" The DUches are just as stupid.
We all know a great purge is coming, it's just a matter of time.
:lmao: :rotf: :rofl:
Didn't 3rd ID have a parade of M1A1s behind him at one point?
:lmao: :rotf: :rofl:
Didn't 3rd ID have a parade of M1A1s behind him at one point?
DisgustipatedinCA (5,596 posts)
15. You can't talk me into believing a steaming pile of shit is a rose
It's spying, and those defending it are representing the worst in acquiescence and soulless political calculations. You hit bedrock for anyone who tries to adhere to a moral code, and you haven't yet understood that there's no leeway for bullshit redefinitions when our founding principles are at stake.
What do you know about our founding principals dummie?
xtraxritical (3,124 posts)He/she/it is right, the FBI does it with things like 1995's (CLINTON ERA) Carnivore program...
76. You know folks it's the FBI that does the domestic spying, don't you?
Oh yeah... Pretty sure Laelth just signed her own death warrant. Can't call The Holy Won of Shitcago out by name like that.Hello, Mike 220. I haven't been banned yet, just fyi. :cheersmate: