The Conservative Cave
Current Events => The DUmpster => Topic started by: Vagabond on January 11, 2013, 06:48:22 PM
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http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022166607
Thu Jan 10, 2013, 09:31 AM
el_bryanto (2,742 posts)
The Utility of Restricting the Term Feminism to Women
Up front, this is a utilitarian analysis of the idea, which I can understand may not be palatable to all.
The benefits of restricting the term feminism to woman are;
* Making a clear distinction between men and woman's roles in the feminist movement. This is a valid concern; men have a tendency to want to take over any movement they join. Male feminists are probably tempted to take over feminist groups they join and redirect them to what they think is important, rather than letting woman take charge in what is supposed to be their movement.
* Reminding Men of their actual situation in relation to women. Society has conditioned men to think that they are naturally in charge; reinforcing that this a sphere that they should not be in charge, that they should accept a subsidiary role in, can be beneficial and help men examine how they exercise control unjustly in other aspects of their lives.
* It may be factually accurate. In a utilitarian analysis this may not be the overriding concern, but I certainly understand the argument that giving up truthfulness for utilitarian concerns is not right.
The drawbacks to restricting the term feminism to woman are;
* It is not the accepted usage of the term. In the poll from yesterday 137 votes were cast and 93% said that it was possible for men to be feminists. And Democratic Underground is, outside of a dedicated Feminist message board, likely to be as receptive to this idea as anywhere in America. Convincing people that men cannot be feminists is likely to be an uphill climb.
* It could discourage men from supporting feminism. This is a tricky one - but I ask you when a man describes himself as a feminist what is he trying to say? Is he trying to say that "As a man, it is my manly responsibility to protect women and work for the rights that they deserve, and thus I must lead feminists to a proper victory." It's certainly possible that some men are looking at things in this chauvinist way. But it may be equally likely that a man describing himself as feminist is simply asserting that he wants to see woman have an equal place in our society; economically, socially, politically and so on. I would assert that the latter is most likely to be the case, but I don't have firm numbers on that. So what is the likely effect on a man describing himself as a feminist if he is told that he is not and cannot be a feminist? If the matter is handled with empathy it can be a moment of introspection and growth for the man; if handled brusquely it could go another way, perhaps.
Just some thoughts on the matter, thank you for your patience.
Bryant
How about this. No man that respects himself is going to latch onto the feminists' movement because they're nothing but a bunch of women that blame men for all of their problems. It's like a white man being a black panther, or a black man being a member of the KKK.
Response to el_bryanto (Reply #2)
Thu Jan 10, 2013, 09:41 AM
lame54 (13,034 posts)
4. Change comes when you bring people aboard - not alienate them
Do you think in your nightly prayer you could mention that to your lord and savior, barrack obama?
Response to lame54 (Reply #4)
Thu Jan 10, 2013, 10:28 AM
el_bryanto (2,742 posts)
12. Is that the only concern though?
I mean bringing men with their chauvinist baggage into Feminism isn't entirely a win-win, is it?
I do see the harm that telling a male who declares himself a feminist "No you aren't" could cause. But does that override the benefits of explaining to him what his proper role in supporting woman's rights should be?
Bryant
No, their chauvinist baggage isn't a problem. That they want to be dominated by a woman wearing six inch high heels might be.
Response to el_bryanto (Original post)
Thu Jan 10, 2013, 10:10 AM
redqueen (99,208 posts)
8. That poll was useless. Should have been restricted to women.
Last edited Thu Jan 10, 2013, 10:10 AM USA/ET - Edit history (1)
I'm sure the vote would still have come out the same way, just not as lopsided... But then if anyone does much reading about it, they'll see how many women have started out with that same idea of "fairness" only to realize after gaining some experience how counterproductive it is.
Ah, yes. The progressive value of inclusiveness on full display.
Response to el_bryanto (Original post)
Thu Jan 10, 2013, 10:29 AM
seabeyond (81,571 posts)
13. another thought. a man titles himself a feminist and there are all types of rewards.
Last edited Thu Jan 10, 2013, 10:34 AM USA/ET - Edit history (1)
a woman claims the title and there is all kinds of backlash.
this is why the footing cannot be equal. just assuming the title alone results in very different treatment, because of gender. because of that patriarchy. once again, reinforcing within the movement itself.
Yes. He gets access to whole lot of angry women...just what any man wants.
Response to seabeyond (Reply #13)
Thu Jan 10, 2013, 10:32 AM
el_bryanto (2,742 posts)
14. That is a good point
That said, the rewards for a male declaring himself a feminist tend to be more localized. I.E. in a community like DU or on campus or in a generally liberal area you would be rewarded, while in a more neutral normal part the response is likely to be "eh." On the other hand it is definitely true that women are regularly punished for describing themselves as feminists.
Bryant
"Rewarded" by a DUmmie woman. *shudders*
Response to seabeyond (Reply #13)
Thu Jan 10, 2013, 03:30 PM
KitSileya (1,498 posts)
32. Often a man who declares himself a feminist is a Nice Guy (TM)
You know, guys who expect to be rewarded for not being sleazeballs or creepers (the reward being sex, of course) or who complain about being "friend-zoned" because "I'm too nice to women, they only like bad boys".
Women are starting to learn and be sceptical.
Yeah, the guy that mows your lawn, fixes the appliances, tolerates your cat, gets the viruses off your computer, washes and maintains your car, and occassionally has the gall to ask for sex...what was the name of the role for that guy again?
Response to seabeyond (Reply #13)
Fri Jan 11, 2013, 03:18 PM
Warren DeMontague (42,675 posts)
52. Do you think that a MTF Transsexual should qualify to be allowed to call herself a Feminist?
Serious Question.http://www.23ae.com/games/sink.asp
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: I see what you did there.
Response to el_bryanto (Original post)
Thu Jan 10, 2013, 10:41 AM
WilliamPitt (53,231 posts)
19. It would be very healthy to this discussion
if people stopped limiting their understanding of feminism and male privilege to America.
It's a global issue.
It still won't work, Will.
Response to el_bryanto (Original post)
Thu Jan 10, 2013, 03:03 PM
Waiting For Everyman (6,194 posts)
27. In my experience
most feminists, who go around calling themselves feminists very often, are over-privileged women (usually white women) who have the nerve to lecture the rest of us about privilege. (Oh, the irony.)
I care about equal rights, for myself and other women (and of course everyone). But I don't care a hoot what feminists think, or consider valid or acceptable. They have no say-so about anything except their own little inbred clubhouse, which a large swathe of women have no interest in and don't agree with.
Most often the defenders of our rights are politicians, not designated feminists. They fundraise effectively once in a while, that's about it. The rest of the time they are promoting themselves by putting others down. That's a cheap game most of us saw through and rejected in grade school.
In short, if any man on DU is for equal rights for women and wants to call himself a feminist, I will back him up. I don't know who these phonies think they are, who assume they have the right to decide things because they claim to speak for women, but they do not.
The closest thing to cogent point on the entire thread.
Response to el_bryanto (Original post)
Thu Jan 10, 2013, 03:20 PM
dsc (38,115 posts)
29. I have to say most minorities don't have the luxory of doing this
if LGBT people decided that no one LGBT people could be supporters of LGBT rights we would get nowhere. Similarly if African Americans decided that only African Americans could be pro civil rights then they would have gotten nowhere. Women are a majority so, in theory, this can work for you but I would think about learning from minorities experience.
The problem is not even most women agree with you.
Response to sibelian (Reply #47)
Fri Jan 11, 2013, 03:14 PM
el_bryanto (2,743 posts)
50. I think the issue is the attitude that that engenders
Which may be different with Blacks or LGBT movements. Many men have a natural tendency to take over; and reminding them that they aren't really woman, don't necessarily understand the concerns really, may well be a good thing. When participating in the feminist movement, men are better of listening and supporting than opining and leading.
Bryant
Men should just sit down and shut up.
Response to el_bryanto (Reply #50)
Fri Jan 11, 2013, 03:29 PM
Kurska (2,780 posts)
56. I'm sorry, but you don't seem to understand the how people actually react to being told to screw off
If you tell men they aren't welcome in the feminist movement and they can't be feminists, they will not help the feminist movement or concern themselves with it. I'm a gay man and I have no idea why a straight person would want to fight for my rights if I told them they aren't allowed to be a leader in my movement or to even use our terminology to describe themselves.I have no idea why you would want to do that, but I've never heard of anything more self-defeating in my life.
Well, there is always voting for Barrack Obama, that would be more self-defeating.
LeftyMom (44,310 posts)
40. There's a difference between saying "I am a feminist" versus merely "I am not entirely awful."
Being in favor of the equal treatment of women does not make you a feminist. It means you don't suck as a human being. Doing something about it makes you a feminist.
Unfortunately some men seem to think that their views make them feminist when they've never acted upon them in any tangible way. Supporting women's right to bodily integrity just means you're not an awful human being. Actively escorting at a clinic makes you a feminist.
All the favorable opinions in the world don't matter until you do something about the problem. If you've got a problem with patriarchy do something about it!
SO you can't be a feminist unless you've escorted somen to have their baby butchered at an abortion mill. My how progressive of you.
Response to el_bryanto (Original post)
Fri Jan 11, 2013, 03:22 PM
Kurska (2,780 posts)
53. You forgot foolish and self defeating.
Last edited Fri Jan 11, 2013, 03:30 PM USA/ET - Edit history (1)
How do you expect men to support a movement that you literally tell them has no place for them?
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Response to Kurska (Reply #53)
Fri Jan 11, 2013, 03:30 PM
seabeyond (81,571 posts)
57. that is not what anyone is saying. and have repeatedly stated they have not said. as a matter of
fact, with every post that a woman says it is a womans movement, they also rave about appreciating, valuing, and how much men are needed in this movement for their support and voice. you know, stroking and coddling for all our worth.
this would be an example of what a few of us are saying. look at the mens reaction because the title of feminism is being denied them from just a small handful of women. the minority. and all of a sudden, men i have never heard concerned about the feminist movement, are now saying how could they support the feminist movement without the title.
doesnt that say something to you?
if i did not have an honorary label, i would continue to support the black and gay movement. oh wait... i dont, and i do still support.
even when i get something wrong, and those in the movement correct me, i do not need my ego stroked, i do not huff off in a fit, and i continue to support the movements understanding lesson learned.
Seabeyond denying that she wrote exactly what she wrote.
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If I were a man on DU (I know, oxymoron) I would be so sick of the militant feminist threads. It would make me want to bitch slap the next woman I see every time I read a post about it.
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Response to el_bryanto (Original post)
Thu Jan 10, 2013, 10:10 AM
redqueen (99,208 posts)
8. That poll was useless. Should have been restricted to women.
Last edited Thu Jan 10, 2013, 10:10 AM USA/ET - Edit history (1)
I'm sure the vote would still have come out the same way, just not as lopsided... But then if anyone does much reading about it, they'll see how many women have started out with that same idea of "fairness" only to realize after gaining some experience how counterproductive it is.
A glimmer of truth and they don`t even know how deep it is.
Whether it be feminism or the daily whines about how much money someone else has there is one constant fact about human nature that I have observed.
Equality or fairness is only desired when perceived or is actually beneficial...once equality disadvantages a person from a place they already are they have no use for the concept.
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I think somebody should start a thread on DU on the importance of the masculinist movement, and whether women should be permitted to call themselves masculinists :whistling:
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To me, Seabeyond is even dumber than EFerrari. She constantly contradicts herself, admittedly writes poorly due to laziness, and can rarely back up her argument without stating she needs to read more on the subject. She's a busybody who doesn't get enough time bossing others around in Wichita Falls, TX. The DUmp is her virtual Wichita Falls utopia, where she and a few other bullies get to boss everyone around.
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Fem-Nazis are ugly people, look at them and I think they make themselves even more ugly due to their ugly attitude, like most LibTards they thrive on HATE
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http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022166607
Response to lame54 (Reply #4)
Thu Jan 10, 2013, 10:28 AM
el_bryanto (2,742 posts)
12. Is that the only concern though?
I mean bringing men with their chauvinist baggage into Feminism isn't entirely a win-win, is it?
I do see the harm that telling a male who declares himself a feminist "No you aren't" could cause. But does that override the benefits of explaining to him what his proper role in supporting woman's rights should be?
Bryant
No, their chauvinist baggage isn't a problem. That they want to be dominated by a woman wearing six inch high heels might be.
So do gay men also have chauvinist baggage or are they automatically exempt?
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If I were a man on DU (I know, oxymoron) I would be so sick of the militant feminist threads. It would make me want to bitch slap the next woman I see every time I read a post about it.
:-)
a man titles himself a feminist and there are all types of rewards
Ummm, not really.....
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To me, Seabeyond is even dumber than EFerrari. She constantly contradicts herself, admittedly writes poorly due to laziness, and can rarely back up her argument without stating she needs to read more on the subject. She's a busybody who doesn't get enough time bossing others around in Wichita Falls, TX. The DUmp is her virtual Wichita Falls utopia, where she and a few other bullies get to boss everyone around.
Seabeyond is misogynistic trash. Nothing worse than a self-loathing feminist.
Between feminism, guns, rape, and trolls serving on juries, how will the primitives make it through another day?
.
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Seabeyond is misogynistic trash. Nothing worse than a self-loathing feminist.
Between feminism, guns, rape, and trolls serving on juries, how will the primitives make it through another day?
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A couple of the HOFers who cause the most angst over there are trolls. One is sometimes obvious. The other plays the part very well. I've seen seabeyond kiss her ass in the past year and it has been hilarious.
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So do gay men also have chauvinist baggage or are they automatically exempt?
Depends which DUmmies you ask - plenty of the feminazis there hate teh gheys simply because they're men (well, sort of men).
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No, their chauvinist baggage isn't a problem. That they want to be dominated by a woman wearing six inch high heels might be.
They're also happy to be dominated by women wearing flat shoes, ugly clothes, and bad hair. At least the traditional dominatrix puts some effort into her appearance unlike the DUmmy women.
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They're also happy to be dominated by women wearing flat shoes, ugly clothes, and bad hair.
I'd like to see nutcase nadin, in her little Nomex suit, with her bald dome, wearing spike heels.
It would be rip-raring funny.
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I'd like to see nutcase nadin, in her little Nomex suit, with her bald dome, wearing spike heels.
It would be rip-raring funny.
What a picture you just conjured up. :rotf:
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I'd like to see nutcase nadin, in her little Nomex suit, with her bald dome, wearing spike heels.
It would be rip-raring funny.
You are evil putting that image in my head :bawl:
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Men as feminist....... we used to call 'em queers.
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(http://www.17oaks.com/_Media/attachment_med.jpeg)
is this the image in your head?
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Men as feminist....... we used to call 'em queers.
Now we just call 'em democrats
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They might not like Christianity, but they have certainly latched on to the notion of 'Original Sin', and 'The Fall of Man' -- or at least their own twisted versions, haven't they ?
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Yep... this is pretty gay.
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I used to be a life member of girl scouts.
Now days I'm just a "Hope to hell something comes around scouts".