The Conservative Cave
Current Events => The DUmpster => Topic started by: Rebel on December 17, 2012, 09:54:00 AM
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YOU! You've said we didn't need a moral compass, that morals come from within. That evil doesn't exist. You've told all these kids they're all special and they're entitled to everything under the sun. You've turned them into zombies by drugging them up because the NEA thinks teaching shouldn't be a hard job, just drug them up and teach to vegetables. You've all but eradicated God and religion, unless it's Islam, and ridicule anything that has anything to do with honor and virtue, not to mention spirituality unless it comes in the form of tree worship or worshiping the ball of dirt we're currently on. Our moral and societal decline resides solely in your hands. You've trivialized the need and importance of a two-person household, consisting of a mother AND father, and are still marching forward trying to get those words banned from official documents. You've gotten rid of paddlings in schools saying it's "corporal punishment", bunch of pussies. Even parents are hesitant to whip their kids these days due to one of you ****ing liberals seeing them and calling the damn law. This "spare the rod, spoil the child" bullshit is why we have what we have today. Competition? Well, that's out. Let's give Jimmy a star because he turned in a paragraph of an assigned 2 page report. A sports match? Hell, can't have that. Oh, wait, we can. Let's just give ALL participants a trophy. You ask, "well, how will the other team know what to do to get better?" Why would you ask that? Hell, it's not about them, it's about us liberals and this makes us feel good. ::)
Why did this happen? Why does it continue to happen? Because of YOU, ****ing idiots. It's time to separate.
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And when I see these idiot kids with the 10-gauged ears, piercings, and tattoos all over themselves and bitching that they can't find a ****ing job making 100K with their degree in Art History from a liberal arts university? I think of YOU, because it was YOU ****tards that told them they could do whatever the **** they wanted to do and if shit didn't go their way, it's not their fault, but someone else's. Why can't they get a job? Because they aren't f'n normal. Lunatics like UGP are NOT normal. You idiots talk about school funding? We fund the hell out of schools. We need to start funding mental institutions. Money well-spent to get you lunatics off the street.
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(http://graphics.desivalley.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/08/clapping-hands.gif)
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Rebel, this individual was none of those things. He most likely had paranoid schizophrenia or something very similar.
I will agree that children today have no respect for adults or others; believe they are entitled to whatever they desire; have very weak work ethics; and are exposed to violent movies and video games to the point they are desensitized to this kind of violence. While that is a serious problem, these children are not shooting up schools.
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There absolutely needs to be more mental health funding. There are a lot of people waiting for a spot in a long term residential mental health facility, but many have been defunded, so they end up yoyo-ing in short term care, some lasting only a few hours outside the hospital before needing to return.
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Rebel, this individual was none of those things. He most likely had paranoid schizophrenia or something very similar.
I will agree that children today have no respect for adults or others; believe they are entitled to whatever they desire; have very weak work ethics; and are exposed to violent movies and video games to the point they are desensitized to this kind of violence. While that is a serious problem, these children are not shooting up schools.
Video games can't be anymore violent than film footage and pictures during WWII, yet, I can't remember reading about any mass shootings at schools during that time. This has everything to do with societal breakdown caused by the influx of "progressivism" into our society. Nice of you to diagnose the kid without any knowledge and, perhaps, any medical background, but let's say he was. Why was this kid schizophrenic? This isn't exactly an isolated case, is it? Jonesboro, Columbine, Pearl, this school, etc., etc. What is going on? Was this kid on mind-altering drugs? The type that would keep me, TRG, Snugs, Freeper, etc. out of the military? Do I need to spell the type of drugs I'm talking about?
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Why is it that whenever one of these nut cases goes off, the media can find all sorts of classmates, friends, teachers, school admins and neighbors to speculate on what went wrong with the moron....
But they never seem to find the Pastor, Priest, Minister, Rabbi or fellow church/synagogue members who can remember them?
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Video games can't be anymore violent than film footage and pictures during WWII, yet, I can't remember reading about any mass shootings at schools during that time.
When was the last time you watched a WWII movie footage non-stop every free moment of days/nights/weekends on end?
This has everything to do with societal breakdown caused by the influx of "progressivism" into our society. Nice of you to diagnose the kid without any knowledge and, perhaps, any medical background, but let's say he was. Why was this kid schizophrenic? This isn't exactly an isolated case, is it? Jonesboro, Columbine, Pearl, this school, etc., etc. What is going on? Was this kid on mind-altering drugs? The type that would keep me, TRG, Snugs, Freeper, etc. out of the military? Do I need to spell the type of drugs I'm talking about?
Oh I know enough about these kids to know when I see mental illness. This is my playground. You can paint him as a spoiled brat (which I think you would have a very tough time supporting with anything that has been printed to date), but that's just not it.
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Why is it that whenever one of these nut cases goes off, the media can find all sorts of classmates, friends, teachers, school admins and neighbors to speculate on what went wrong with the moron....
But they never seem to find the Pastor, Priest, Minister, Rabbi or fellow church/synagogue members who can remember them?
Doubtful they even look in that regard.
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When was the last time you watched a WWII movie footage non-stop every free moment of days/nights/weekends on end?
Oh I know enough about these kids to know when I see mental illness. This is my playground. You can paint him as a spoiled brat (which I think you would have a very tough time supporting with anything that has been printed to date), but that's just not it.
Well, I'm not about to blame a damn video game. I've played Call of Duty, Halo, Rainbow Six, SOCOM, etc. and never once did I say to myself, "Kill, must go on shooting spree. Kill".
Keep kicking the can down the road, FL.
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There absolutely needs to be more mental health funding. There are a lot of people waiting for a spot in a long term residential mental health facility, but many have been defunded, so they end up yoyo-ing in short term care, some lasting only a few hours outside the hospital before needing to return.
H5.
This is a soapbox rant for me. Who is to blame are the DU misfits because they suck the life out of medicaid with their bullshit claims of disability, which takes services away from those who truly need it (and those this safety net was created for).
They sicken me to the core in that regard.
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Well, I'm not about to blame a damn video game. I've played Call of Duty, Halo, Rainbow Six, SOCOM, etc. and never once did I say to myself, "Kill, must go on shooting spree. Kill".
Keep kicking the can down the road, FL.
Neither are the kids who are playing them Rebel - go read my post again.
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Rebel is right. This is just another example of the consequences of the moral decay in this country. When some is taught that everything is about 'me' then it is ok for me to do what I will with 'you'.
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You know I look around me and I know a few spoiled teens. I find it a pretty major stretch to find any commonality between an average spoiled teenager and a psychotic. IN fact in every one of these cases the kids were referred to as an outcast and I don't know many spoiled brats out there who are considered outcasts in today's society--quite the opposite. It's like looking at a rapist and an average man and saying they are only one step apart because they both have a sex drive. Indulgence creates it's own set of problems, but not psychosis anymore then testosterone creates a rapist.
To be honest, what I see shaping up in this mom's profile and even her son's are people we probably would have welcomed on this board. Maybe that's what is making everyone a little uncomfortable. For me, I'm ok to admit that we probably have unbalanced people on our side too. We are human beings and that fact is inescapable. In fact, we have had a few people here very honest about their mental illness and there are a few here taking those medications that are now being mocked.
I'd like to know what your answer versus your reaction is.
I think long term care facilities are one issue. Another is the abuse of the disability system that pulls resources that we all intended for very serious issues like this. I mean everytime we hear people say they weren't right and yet everytime too where the parents have survived it we here of a family struggling to find solutions BEFORE being told their kid has to commit a crime first. This man had a clean record!! So what now?
I just would like to see some solutions rather then blame. The general rot out there is only a contributor in as much as nobody gives a shit what goes on at their neighbors door anymore until and unless it affects them personally. Other than that, I don't see the relevance.
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I think Rebel is right on the money. Liberals redefined morality then they are shocked that people are immoral.
It has been written that the biggest lie satan tells is he doesn't exist. So here comes the left who says evil does not exist unless you are a conservative.
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You know I look around me and I know a few spoiled teens. I find it a pretty major stretch to find any commonality between an average spoiled teenager and a psychotic. IN fact in every one of these cases the kids were referred to as an outcast and I don't know many spoiled brats out there who are considered outcasts in today's society--quite the opposite. It's like looking at a rapist and an average man and saying they are only one step apart because they both have a sex drive. Indulgence creates it's own set of problems, but not psychosis anymore then testosterone creates a rapist.
To be honest, what I see shaping up in this mom's profile and even her son's are people we probably would have welcomed on this board. Maybe that's what is making everyone a little uncomfortable. For me, I'm ok to admit that we probably have unbalanced people on our side too. We are human beings and that fact is inescapable. In fact, we have had a few people here very honest about their mental illness and there are a few here taking those medications that are now being mocked.
I'd like to know what your answer versus your reaction is.
I think long term care facilities are one issue. Another is the abuse of the disability system that pulls resources that we all intended for very serious issues like this. I mean everytime we hear people say they weren't right and yet everytime too where the parents have survived it we here of a family struggling to find solutions BEFORE being told their kid has to commit a crime first. This man had a clean record!! So what now?
I just would like to see some solutions rather then blame. The general rot out there is only a contributor in as much as nobody gives a shit what goes on at their neighbors door anymore until and unless it affects them personally. Other than that, I don't see the relevance.
Then what is the commonality? What has changed from 30+ years ago to now? Why are they now just starting to happen, or within the last 15 years? Did we get invaded by aliens who are now controlling these kids? What has changed? There IS a cause and for every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction. What is the action that causes these events? Mental illness? Yeah, that's not new last I checked.
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Video games can't be anymore violent than film footage and pictures during WWII, yet, I can't remember reading about any mass shootings at schools during that time. This has everything to do with societal breakdown caused by the influx of "progressivism" into our society. Nice of you to diagnose the kid without any knowledge and, perhaps, any medical background, but let's say he was. Why was this kid schizophrenic? This isn't exactly an isolated case, is it? Jonesboro, Columbine, Pearl, this school, etc., etc. What is going on? Was this kid on mind-altering drugs? The type that would keep me, TRG, Snugs, Freeper, etc. out of the military? Do I need to spell the type of drugs I'm talking about?
Kev? I believe his brother told investigators he had a personality disorder along with Asbergers. Schizophrenia is one of many different types of personality disorders.His bro didnt specify which one he had.So i think FL was probably speculating as to which one is all.
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I think Rebel is right on the money. Liberals redefined morality then they are shocked that people are immoral.
It has been written that the biggest lie satan tells is he doesn't exist. So here comes the left who says evil does not exist unless you are a conservative.
Are you saying you think you could have spanked out his urge to pump 27 people full of lead? Just curious.
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You know I look around me and I know a few spoiled teens. I find it a pretty major stretch to find any commonality between an average spoiled teenager and a psychotic. IN fact in every one of these cases the kids were referred to as an outcast and I don't know many spoiled brats out there who are considered outcasts in today's society--quite the opposite. It's like looking at a rapist and an average man and saying they are only one step apart because they both have a sex drive. Indulgence creates it's own set of problems, but not psychosis anymore then testosterone creates a rapist.
To be honest, what I see shaping up in this mom's profile and even her son's are people we probably would have welcomed on this board. Maybe that's what is making everyone a little uncomfortable. For me, I'm ok to admit that we probably have unbalanced people on our side too. We are human beings and that fact is inescapable. In fact, we have had a few people here very honest about their mental illness and there are a few here taking those medications that are now being mocked.
I'd like to know what your answer versus your reaction is.
I think long term care facilities are one issue. Another is the abuse of the disability system that pulls resources that we all intended for very serious issues like this. I mean everytime we hear people say they weren't right and yet everytime too where the parents have survived it we here of a family struggling to find solutions BEFORE being told their kid has to commit a crime first. This man had a clean record!! So what now?
I just would like to see some solutions rather then blame. The general rot out there is only a contributor in as much as nobody gives a shit what goes on at their neighbors door anymore until and unless it affects them personally. Other than that, I don't see the relevance.
H5.
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Then what is the commonality? What has changed from 30+ years ago to now? Why are they now just starting to happen, or within the last 15 years? Did we get invaded by aliens who are now controlling these kids? What has changed? There IS a cause and for every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction. What is the action that causes these events? Mental illness? Yeah, that's not new last I checked.
Ummmm..you do realize someone lke him would likely have been committed years ago right? That's a BIG CHANGE....SERIOUS mental illness is the commonality rebel. you couldn't have spanked out of that kid what he did. And I know we want simple solutions. DUers want it too. It makes us all feel safer to think we have the answer and can point our finger at it.
Even with what I'm saying, there is also the idea that evil is and always has been and we can only do our best to mitigate against it. Evil sat by the side in even the most moral of societies. To some extent I may wish we could control that and I know to some extent free will prevents it every time.
I do think though considering that we could do a lot more to make sure people this seriously mentally ill are not left with ill-equipped care provides to make sure they don't snap off. The common string in ALL of these was a serious mental illness, not spoiling. that is just not present in every spoiled person or we'd have this going on everyday when they don't get their latest iphone. I haven't found one of these people yet that was some spoiled jock who thought his shit didn't stink so I"m finding a hard time making the connections you are. I know some shitty attitude spoiled kids and they are more likely to do harm to themselves and other INDIRECTLY because of their poor self-centered decisions then deliberately by picking up a weapon.
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Ummmm..you do realize someone lke him would likely have been committed years ago right? That's a BIG CHANGE....SERIOUS mental illness is the commonality rebel.
We fund the hell out of schools. We need to start funding mental institutions.
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Then what is the commonality? What has changed from 30+ years ago to now? Why are they now just starting to happen, or within the last 15 years? Did we get invaded by aliens who are now controlling these kids? What has changed? There IS a cause and for every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction. What is the action that causes these events? Mental illness? Yeah, that's not new last I checked.
Neurological disorders are on the rise, and it can be traced to the early 90s when Hillary rammed through mandatory vaccines at an obscene amount per visit. The military won't even give more than 4 vaccines at a time for those deploying overseas, yet infants are getting sometimes 6+ per visit.
Vaccines are extremely important, but the amount when coupled with this steep increase in neurological disorders should prompt the CDC and Congress to put the brakes on.
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I think Rebel is right on the money. Liberals redefined morality then they are shocked that people are immoral.
It has been written that the biggest lie satan tells is he doesn't exist. So here comes the left who says evil does not exist unless you are a conservative.
Heres the problem i have with that theory Freep. We have had serial/mass killers in one form or another since the beginning of time.Ted Bundy is a perfect example of a serial killer who was raised in a very strict conservative christian home where i.m quite sure thet his mother didnt spare him an ass whipping. Evil does exist but so does mental illness and i've never seen a mentally ill person cured from a good spanking! While I agree morality has gone in the shitter its not the only cause of these things happening.
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Are you saying you think you could have spanked out his urge to pump 27 people full of lead? Just curious.
No I'm saying that but somehow he grew up to be a monster and I think it has to do with how society, parents and teachers don't seem to be teaching what is right and wrong anymore. And like Reb said if you dare punish your kids for bad behavior you could end up the one being in trouble. We have suffered major cultural rot for a long time and we are seeing our chickens come home to roost.
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Mental Illness exists. It is not just the result of an indulgent culture. It is not caused by violent video games or overly permissive parenting. Serious mental illness is not created, it is born. Anti-social personality disorder (a sociopath) is a real thing, there are people who honestly cannot relate to others due to chemical imbalances in the brain, not due to their upbringing. It sounds like anti-socal personality disorder is the mental issue that is most commonly being linked to Adam Lanza.
This shooting is not the result of a culture redefining morality.
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No I'm saying that but somehow he grew up to be a monster and I think it has to do with how society, parents and teachers don't seem to be teaching what is right and wrong anymore. And like Reb said if you dare punish your kids for bad behavior you could end up the one being in trouble. We have suffered major cultural rot for a long time and we are seeing our chickens come home to roost.
How do you know he wasn't raised in a strict home? His brother seems to be fine.
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Heres the problem i have with that theory Freep. We have had serial/mass killers in one form or another since the beginning of time.Ted Bundy is a perfect example of a serial killer who was raised in a very strict conservative christian home where i.m quite sure thet his mother didnt spare him an ass whipping. Evil does exist but so does mental illness and i've never seen a mentally ill person cured from a good spanking! While I agree morality has gone in the shitter its not the only cause of these things happening.
I didn't claim it was the only reason but I suspect our cultural rot has something to do with it.
If there was one simple cause to any if this we could stop it but there isn't. Until this country gets a wake up call we are going to see more and more of this.
Even if we do it will still happen because evil will always exist. But I honestly think if we can shift our culture back to sanity we won't see as much of this.
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No I'm saying that but somehow he grew up to be a monster and I think it has to do with how society, parents and teachers don't seem to be teaching what is right and wrong anymore. And like Reb said if you dare punish your kids for bad behavior you could end up the one being in trouble. We have suffered major cultural rot for a long time and we are seeing our chickens come home to roost.
I really don't knwo what else to say if you truly believe this. If this were true then we probably should all lock the doors and pull the shutters now because last I checked there are a lot of over-indulged kids out there and the worse they do is vote for Obama and be impolite little buttheads. I don't know a one of the several I would consider this to be true of who would kill children in a temper tantrum. I'm really astounded today. How anyone could raise a child if they believe this and not worry that any extra Christmas present, any family trip, any minor indulgence might contribute to them becoming a killer I can't imagine. I'd be filled with constant anxiety if this were the case.
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No I'm saying that but somehow he grew up to be a monster and I think it has to do with how society, parents and teachers don't seem to be teaching what is right and wrong anymore. And like Reb said if you dare punish your kids for bad behavior you could end up the one being in trouble. We have suffered major cultural rot for a long time and we are seeing our chickens come home to roost.
I dont think this is an example of poor parenting. His brother, raised in the same home, is a successful professional, reportedly outgoing with plenty of friends. Neighbors said that when he was arrested, they knew that the wrong brother was being accused.
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How do you know he wasn't raised in a strict home? His brother seems to be fine.
You know as much as I do and all we are doing us speculating. If you think that our culture has no effect on this then that is your opinion. I have stated my thoughts and if you don't agree then that is fine. There is no simple answer to this.
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I really don't knwo what else to say if you truly believe this. If this were true then we probably should all lock the doors and pull the shutters now because last I checked there are a lot of over-indulged kids out there and the worse they do is vote for Obama and be impolite little buttheads. I don't know a one of the several I would consider this to be true of who would kill children in a temper tantrum. I'm really astounded today. How anyone could raise a child if they believe this and not worry that any extra Christmas present, any family trip, any minor indulgence might contribute to them becoming a killer I can't imagine. I'd be filled with constant anxiety if this were the case.
I don't know where you got all that from.
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Neurological disorders are on the rise, and it can be traced to the early 90s when Hillary rammed through mandatory vaccines at an obscene amount per visit. The military won't even give more than 4 vaccines at a time for those deploying overseas, yet infants are getting sometimes 6+ per visit.
Vaccines are extremely important, but the amount when coupled with this steep increase in neurological disorders should prompt the CDC and Congress to put the brakes on.
See and I actually part ways with formerlurker here. I see the problem as kind of an offshoot of having such good medical care which I can't elaborate on now and I don't think we should go backward. Another factor might be advanced maternal age. Women are waiting longer to have children, this increases the risk of disability and could be a contributor to things like this. Things have changed a lot, but morality is only one piece of the puzzle. I'm sure you'll admit the when and hows we have children now has changed too. Things like advanced maternal age and they are even saying advanced PATERNAL age can affect things negatively too.
Perhaps even this is where in a less kooky way we should consider things liberals champion like genetic engineered food or hormone laced milk. Perhaps it's safe for MOST but may create problems in a handful of cases. How do we research to figure out those problems and which groups are more affected so they can mitigate that risk.
To me this is a more prudent route considering the changes in our food supply, age and how we have babies, etc.
I think there ar ea number of things to look at that are 'different' then 30, 40, 50 years ago.
A good case in point is baby boomers. Maybe one of the more spoiled generations ever, but we didn't see this kind of thing like this then so???? Why? Why would that self-indulged generation not have acted out if it was a matter of spoiling? Certainly many turned godless in their adult years and that's quite evident given the culture of their early adulthood..so what is the explanation there if it's a matter of not spoiling?
And with that, I got things I gotta run and do folks). Later! :)
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YOU!
I'll add to this: Two things that I see missing from this picture (prior to the rampage) is guns and God.
If our children are our most precious resource (and they are) then why the Hell are we not protecting them as such? We are living in a society where we see the results of decades of no limit/moral relativism teachings has produced. None of us are surprised (at least none of us that know what turns savages into savages) and we have no real choice but to ride out this part of our Country's history while trying to turn back to societal mores that reflect what they used to be. Until the day arrives where people act like civilized human beings and not ego-maniacal animals, we had best be prepared to make these trogs assume room temperature should they ever cross our paths. That includes safeguarding our children with more than good intentions.
Creating "gun free zones" does nothing to stop criminals, it only emboldens them. I have yet to see one area of restrictive gun control do anything other than corral the sheep for fleecing. What these liberal shitbags have done is set up areas where the maximum amount of damage can be done in the minimum amount of time. CT is not exactly known for its lax gun laws so according to liberal "logic", this type of event never should have happened. That they don't see this is really no mystery, these aren't exactly "smart" people to begin with. If there is one thing we could point to that can be hung around their greasy necks, it would be the free fire zones they create in the areas they control.
Kicking God out of school did not happen in a vacuum. Whenever there is an area where God is denied, you can expect chaos, darkness, tyranny, mayhem, and death to follow without fail. Every place where God was denied, people suffered. I'm not saying that bringing the Lord's Prayer back to school day routine is going to solve everything, but it sure wouldn't hurt to return the damn schools to some semblance of morals and standards that they used to have.
Liberals are responsible for this tragedy - they own it 110%. Don't you guys think it's high time we made sure they did?
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I dont think this is an example of poor parenting. His brother, raised in the same home, is a successful professional, reportedly outgoing with plenty of friends. Neighbors said that when he was arrested, they knew that the wrong brother was being accused.
I'm not claiming to have all the answers I just say what I think may be part of the problem
I'm staring to think I should have kept my mouth shut since everyone ganged up on me. :D:
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Here is what I have seen in my lifetime from the liberal education establishment.
In the early 90s it was discovered that diagnosing every difficult child with a disorder meant an increase in funding and that meant an increase in staff (union dues) but rarely any help for those that truly needed it.
The alphabet syndrome has almost become a badge of honor and an excuse for both the student as well as the teacher.
I am not in any way ridiculing those that actually do have a disability,what is sad is that it has become so watered down that they will not get the help they do need.
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You know as much as I do and all we are doing us speculating. If you think that our culture has no effect on this then that is your opinion. I have stated my thoughts and if you don't agree then that is fine. There is no simple answer to this.
This is what I posted:
Rebel, this individual was none of those things. He most likely had paranoid schizophrenia or something very similar.
I will agree that children today have no respect for adults or others; believe they are entitled to whatever they desire; have very weak work ethics; and are exposed to violent movies and video games to the point they are desensitized to this kind of violence. While that is a serious problem, these children are not shooting up schools.
The change in culture/society is not producing mass murderers.
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This is what I posted:
The change in culture/society is not producing mass murderers.
I don't think it us producing mass murders I do think it has helped nudge some people in that direction.
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See and I actually part ways with formerlurker here. I see the problem as kind of an offshoot of having such good medical care which I can't elaborate on now and I don't think we should go backward. Another factor might be advanced maternal age. Women are waiting longer to have children, this increases the risk of disability and could be a contributor to things like this. Things have changed a lot, but morality is only one piece of the puzzle. I'm sure you'll admit the when and hows we have children now has changed too. Things like advanced maternal age and they are even saying advanced PATERNAL age can affect things negatively too.
Perhaps even this is where in a less kooky way we should consider things liberals champion like genetic engineered food or hormone laced milk. Perhaps it's safe for MOST but may create problems in a handful of cases. How do we research to figure out those problems and which groups are more affected so they can mitigate that risk.
To me this is a more prudent route considering the changes in our food supply, age and how we have babies, etc.
I think there ar ea number of things to look at that are 'different' then 30, 40, 50 years ago.
A good case in point is baby boomers. Maybe one of the more spoiled generations ever, but we didn't see this kind of thing like this then so???? Why? Why would that self-indulged generation not have acted out if it was a matter of spoiling? Certainly many turned godless in their adult years and that's quite evident given the culture of their early adulthood..so what is the explanation there if it's a matter of not spoiling?
And with that, I got things I gotta run and do folks). Later! :)
If neurological disorders were limited to advanced age of parent then I would agree, but it is not. It affects all geographical/socio-economic backgrounds and maternal/paternal age groups.
I don't know what causes autism. I do know the rates of autism and other neurological disorders are rising at an alarming rate.
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I don't think it us producing mass murders I do think it has helped nudge some people in that direction.
I don't know how one makes the leap from pampered/spoiled to cold blooded murderer (of small children no less) in twenty years time.
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Here is what I have seen in my lifetime from the liberal education establishment.
In the early 90s it was discovered that diagnosing every difficult child with a disorder meant an increase in funding and that meant an increase in staff (union dues) but rarely any help for those that truly needed it.
The alphabet syndrome has almost become a badge of honor and an excuse for both the student as well as the teacher.
I am not in any way ridiculing those that actually do have a disability,what is sad is that it has become so watered down that they will not get the help they do need.
Unfortunately that is no longer the case. In MA, which arguably is the best state of the union for special education services, enacted education reform in the early 90s which capped that extra funding for children on IEPs to 3% of student population. Their intent was to stem this fraud for funding you speak of here that was uncovered in MD. The thought process was if they limit funding, then school districts will stop labeling students as disabled.
That failed miserably. The state average of children with disabilities hovers around the 17-18% mark, and has been since ed reform. This means presently schools are grossly underfunded for special education. Note, this does not mean I am advocating for more spending as I am not. I am advocating for better education programming, which can be done with the funding they currently receive.
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Mental Illness exists. It is not just the result of an indulgent culture. It is not caused by violent video games or overly permissive parenting. Serious mental illness is not created, it is born. Anti-social personality disorder (a sociopath) is a real thing, there are people who honestly cannot relate to others due to chemical imbalances in the brain, not due to their upbringing. It sounds like anti-socal personality disorder is the mental issue that is most commonly being linked to Adam Lanza.
This shooting is not the result of a culture redefining morality.
Then why is it just now on the rise within the past 15 years? You're a lot younger than many of us here, so please understand our point. I'll be 40 in February. I don't remember ever hearing about this BS coming up.
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Neurological disorders are on the rise, and it can be traced to the early 90s when Hillary rammed through mandatory vaccines at an obscene amount per visit. The military won't even give more than 4 vaccines at a time for those deploying overseas, yet infants are getting sometimes 6+ per visit.
Vaccines are extremely important, but the amount when coupled with this steep increase in neurological disorders should prompt the CDC and Congress to put the brakes on.
I can buy that and it does seem to correlate. I also think a lot of kids on ADD/ADHD medicine aren't diagnosed properly and should probably have their asses whipped to get them to pay attention. Does ADD/ADHD exist? I can't say yes or no. Many doctors say yes. What I do know is if I had a problem paying attention and started slipping in my grades, my dad had his own prescription, and it was leather-based.
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As for a proactive move, find one or two teachers at each wing, make them go through training, and arm them. You say, "but what if the teacher goes on a rampage?" To that I say, A) when's the last time that happened, and B) what prevents him/her from doing it now? We know the alternative to teachers NOT being armed now, don't we?
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Kicking God out of school did not happen in a vacuum. Whenever there is an area where God is denied, you can expect chaos, darkness, tyranny, mayhem, and death to follow without fail. Every place where God was denied, people suffered. I'm not saying that bringing the Lord's Prayer back to school day routine is going to solve everything, but it sure wouldn't hurt to return the damn schools to some semblance of morals and standards that they used to have.
Liberals are responsible for this tragedy - they own it 110%. Don't you guys think it's high time we made sure they did?
This.
We choose to ignore history at our peril.
H5
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Then why is it just now on the rise within the past 15 years? You're a lot younger than many of us here, so please understand our point. I'll be 40 in February. I don't remember ever hearing about this BS coming up.
http://www.k12academics.com/school-shootings/history-school-shootings-united-states
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http://www.k12academics.com/school-shootings/history-school-shootings-united-states
You realize most of those were crimes with motivation, right? Someone's grades, someone broke up with someone, etc. I mean senseless mass murders and they seem to be more and more common in the past 15 years. I've seen that before.
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I can buy that and it does seem to correlate. I also think a lot of kids on ADD/ADHD medicine aren't diagnosed properly and should probably have their asses whipped to get them to pay attention. Does ADD/ADHD exist? I can't say yes or no. Many doctors say yes. What I do know is if I had a problem paying attention and started slipping in my grades, my dad had his own prescription, and it was leather-based.
Yes it does. What is debatable is whether it should be treated with meds when it is not severe AND whether it is overdiagnosed or not(I believe it is). A child with a pretty hefty case of it though is obvious. I think many here only see children in the abstract not either having them or having any with some serious issues and have little concept of how the behavior is out of the norm or that some parents are 'smart' enough to have tried these simplistic measures that are being suggested. I"m saying this as someone who was a disbeliever too. God's had a way of smacking me on the head for being so arrogant unfortunately. :(
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I can buy that and it does seem to correlate. I also think a lot of kids on ADD/ADHD medicine aren't diagnosed properly and should probably have their asses whipped to get them to pay attention. Does ADD/ADHD exist? I can't say yes or no. Many doctors say yes. What I do know is if I had a problem paying attention and started slipping in my grades, my dad had his own prescription, and it was leather-based.
This is for formerlurker too. I doubt the vaccine connection because there are families with a history of it, but I don't think they connected it before. In my family, I now know my late cousin was classically autistic although somewhat verbal(he died in a home in the last couple years from a sugar low:-(. I guess I should say I doubt it in MY case. I think it's not one case. Maybe what my son has is probably what was likely 50 years ago before it had a name. The genetic form of autism. the kind you are discussing could explain spiking now, but is not likely the case for everyone. I strongly believe it's a genetic thing in mine so when I read the vaccine stuff, it has no relevance to me. I chose because of autoimmune issues to space out vaccines. There's a strong link too of autoimmune issues in my family so I thought over burdening an immature one so that it ends up 'storming' on and off the rest of their life when faced with any challenge was not a good idea.
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As for a proactive move, find one or two teachers at each wing, make them go through training, and arm them. You say, "but what if the teacher goes on a rampage?" To that I say, A) when's the last time that happened, and B) what prevents him/her from doing it now? We know the alternative to teachers NOT being armed now, don't we?
Actually, with that I agree with you Rebel. I have said to friends that I think this could have been stopped if the principal or the psych had a gun. They had time to react and could have shot him instead of him them. Totally agree on that one.
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You realize most of those were crimes with motivation, right? Someone's grades, someone broke up with someone, etc. I mean senseless mass murders and they seem to be more and more common in the past 15 years. I've seen that before.
yeah I noticed that, but this is by no means 'new' anymore then sin is new.
Also, this would also support my notion that when we housed very very troubled individuals this did not happen with as much frequently. Again it bolsters the mental health issue does it not? And how it not addressed adequately.
As an aside, we have more to learn about the family. What of his mother. Do YOU think how she was living was healthy with a person like that in her care? Do you think it's possible we had someone caring for someone who was mentally unstable(verified by his brother btw) who herself was in the midst of at least some minor mental issues probably due to her RECENT divorce, being isolated, and alone caring for her son? I can kind of see the perfect storm in this. Ultimately, he probably should have been in a long term care facility and definitely not being cared for someone who probably was dealing with her own demons.
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I'll add to this: Two things that I see missing from this picture (prior to the rampage) is guns and God.
If our children are our most precious resource (and they are) then why the Hell are we not protecting them as such? We are living in a society where we see the results of decades of no limit/moral relativism teachings has produced. None of us are surprised (at least none of us that know what turns savages into savages) and we have no real choice but to ride out this part of our Country's history while trying to turn back to societal mores that reflect what they used to be. Until the day arrives where people act like civilized human beings and not ego-maniacal animals, we had best be prepared to make these trogs assume room temperature should they ever cross our paths. That includes safeguarding our children with more than good intentions.
Creating "gun free zones" does nothing to stop criminals, it only emboldens them. I have yet to see one area of restrictive gun control do anything other than corral the sheep for fleecing. What these liberal shitbags have done is set up areas where the maximum amount of damage can be done in the minimum amount of time. CT is not exactly known for its lax gun laws so according to liberal "logic", this type of event never should have happened. That they don't see this is really no mystery, these aren't exactly "smart" people to begin with. If there is one thing we could point to that can be hung around their greasy necks, it would be the free fire zones they create in the areas they control.
Kicking God out of school did not happen in a vacuum. Whenever there is an area where God is denied, you can expect chaos, darkness, tyranny, mayhem, and death to follow without fail. Every place where God was denied, people suffered. I'm not saying that bringing the Lord's Prayer back to school day routine is going to solve everything, but it sure wouldn't hurt to return the damn schools to some semblance of morals and standards that they used to have.
Liberals are responsible for this tragedy - they own it 110%. Don't you guys think it's high time we made sure they did?
Well Said. Also it is a problem with mental health. Some people should not be allowed loose among the rest of us. Were there abuses in the system where wrongfully detained people were committed or abused. Yes there were but there are laws that keep most of that from happening now days. There are no easy answers but something needs to be done and its not gun control in any fashion.
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Well Said. Also it is a problem with mental health. Some people should not be allowed loose among the rest of us. Were there abuses in the system where wrongfully detained people were committed or abused. Yes there were but there are laws that keep most of that from happening now days. There are no easy answers but something needs to be done and its not gun control in any fashion.
Thank you Airwolf. That's actually all I'm saying too.
I think they are two separate issues and I am loathe to simplify it the way DU does down to guns. Nothing happens when liberals defend mental illness as a civil liberties issue and blame it on guns and conservatives pretend it doesn't exist and blame it on discipline and morality.
Liberals use it as an excuse and conservatives say it is an excuse. IN the meantime, those of us caring for mentally retarded, neurologically impaired, or mentally ill children have to watch the bickering while we hold shit together. It gets ****ing old and I feel like slapping the shit out of both to be honest. No offense friends, but this discussion frustrates me to no end and I feel like I make as much impact as a discussion of dieting with LVL.
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Thank you Airwolf. That's actually all I'm saying too.
I think they are two separate issues and I am loathe to simplify it the way DU does down to guns. Nothing happens when liberals defend mental illness as a civil liberties issue and blame it on guns and conservatives pretend it doesn't exist and blame it on discipline and morality.
Liberals use it as an excuse and conservatives say it is an excuse. IN the meantime, those of us caring for mentally retarded, neurologically impaired, or mentally ill children have to watch the bickering while we hold shit together. It gets ****ing old and I feel like slapping the shit out of both to be honest. No offense friends, but this discussion frustrates me to no end and I feel like I make as much impact as a discussion of dieting with LVL.
I think what's being missed in all this talk is, maybe Adam was just a bad seed. I don't know if modern medicine could or would have helped him but I DO know that no treatment can create a conscience where there is none. If he was a socio- or psychopath, there's no "magic pill" for that.
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Yes it does. What is debatable is whether it should be treated with meds when it is not severe AND whether it is overdiagnosed or not(I believe it is). A child with a pretty hefty case of it though is obvious. I think many here only see children in the abstract not either having them or having any with some serious issues and have little concept of how the behavior is out of the norm or that some parents are 'smart' enough to have tried these simplistic measures that are being suggested. I"m saying this as someone who was a disbeliever too. God's had a way of smacking me on the head for being so arrogant unfortunately. :(
Those bruises on your hands healed up yet from smacking the ADHD out of Jake honey? :-)
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Yes it does. What is debatable is whether it should be treated with meds when it is not severe AND whether it is overdiagnosed or not(I believe it is). A child with a pretty hefty case of it though is obvious. I think many here only see children in the abstract not either having them or having any with some serious issues and have little concept of how the behavior is out of the norm or that some parents are 'smart' enough to have tried these simplistic measures that are being suggested. I"m saying this as someone who was a disbeliever too. God's had a way of smacking me on the head for being so arrogant unfortunately. :(
The number of cases of severe autism are skyrocketing. There is no misdiagnosis of that.
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I think what's being missed in all this talk is, maybe Adam was just a bad seed. I don't know if modern medicine could or would have helped him but I DO know that no treatment can create a conscience where there is none. If he was a socio- or psychopath, there's no "magic pill" for that.
Actually there are! There also used to be places for these folks to go when they had a break or episode.Many of them have been shuttered and both political parties bear the fault in their closure. We need to have a serious discussion in this country about both mental illness and morality...and everyone needs to be involved because it respects no political party or agenda.It can affect everyone to one extent or another.
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The number of cases of severe autism are skyrocketing. There is no misdiagnosis of that.
I think Jty was talking about ADHD there FL.
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This is for formerlurker too. I doubt the vaccine connection because there are families with a history of it, but I don't think they connected it before. In my family, I now know my late cousin was classically autistic although somewhat verbal(he died in a home in the last couple years from a sugar low:-(. I guess I should say I doubt it in MY case. I think it's not one case. Maybe what my son has is probably what was likely 50 years ago before it had a name. The genetic form of autism. the kind you are discussing could explain spiking now, but is not likely the case for everyone. I strongly believe it's a genetic thing in mine so when I read the vaccine stuff, it has no relevance to me. I chose because of autoimmune issues to space out vaccines. There's a strong link too of autoimmune issues in my family so I thought over burdening an immature one so that it ends up 'storming' on and off the rest of their life when faced with any challenge was not a good idea.
I believe the genetic connection relates largely to the susceptibility to vaccine injury (as the majority of children who get vaccines are clearly not autistic). I don't know if there is a main cause of autism, but I do know that in the early 90s the rate of this disability took off through the roof. You don't go from 1 in 10,000 to 1 in 88 on better diagnosis, or overdiagnosis. Something is up, and precious few in Congress seems to care to find out why.
There is a tsunami of children who are aging out of school services (turning 21, and 22). They are profoundly affected by autism and will require intense adult services. The government will no longer be able to ignore the problem then. There was a Congressman at the hearing (forget his name off the top of my head) who had his seat for almost 30 years. He talked about the CDC pleading with them over AIDS, it's an epidemic that requires Congress to act. 1 in 88 for autism? meh, nothing to see here. The same urgency you won't find which is mind boggling to me to say the very least.
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I think what's being missed in all this talk is, maybe Adam was just a bad seed. I don't know if modern medicine could or would have helped him but I DO know that no treatment can create a conscience where there is none. If he was a socio- or psychopath, there's no "magic pill" for that.
With everything written to date (and who knows if you can believe it), I don't see it.
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Actually there are! There also used to be places for these folks to go when they had a break or episode.Many of them have been shuttered and both political parties bear the fault in their closure. We need to have a serious discussion in this country about both mental illness and morality...and everyone needs to be involved because it respects no political party or agenda.It can affect everyone to one extent or another.
100% agreed. H5.
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I think Jty was talking about ADHD there FL.
Ah ok - my mistake.
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Kev? I believe his brother told investigators he had a personality disorder along with Asbergers. Schizophrenia is one of many different types of personality disorders.His bro didn't specify which one he had.So i think FL was probably speculating as to which one is all.
Schizophrenia is a psychosis not a personality disorder although schizoid personality disorder which is on the severe end of the schizo spectrum is. The distinction is important because personality disorders are much harder to treat than a psychosis. The problem with schizophrenia is that when they feel better they tend to go off of their meds. While people with personality disorders can have a psychotic break, it's not an ongoing characteristic as with schizophrenia.
Son of Sam had severe paranoia (a symptom of schizophrenia) and heard voices telling him to kill, I'm not sure mass killers like this do. This is such a selfish, egotistical thing to do (even if they die or kill themselves the know before they do it they'll be famous or at least be a center of attention for a while). And these people plan these things, maybe not for months and months, but the guy who shot up the theater actually made sure he went to a theater that was a "gun free zone". Then again, I think people with personality disorders can go through life without any real problems. Look at the narcissist in chief.
I have no clue what to do about to prevent these things from happening. I do think there's a pattern being that the majority are young white males. Society is failing them in so many ways. And I don't think the country can begin to move beyond knee-jerk reactions until the shock wears off and the nation can think more clearly (not necessarily the parents who lost their babies or the community surrounding Sandy Hook). Right now every news channel has a different psychiatrist on trying to diagnose this kid or to explain why this happens but neither they nor anyone else has enough information to make sense of this. Maybe we never will.
In between the psychiatrists there are the pro & con (mostly pro) gun control crowd. Whether the anti gun crowd manages to restrict gun rights or not, these purely evil people will find a way to get guns if they want. We, as a society, need to find a way to help our young men before they reach this stage. Our society focuses so heavily on girls that boys get lost in the shuffle. But is this a symptom or not? I don't know but it's just as valid as looking at anything else.
I don't think the whole "violent video games & movies" plays a role, either, but people are going to be inclined to prove this plays a role. My oldest son, from the time he was 4, his favorite movie was Rambo. There were times when he'd watch it more than once a day and he had to have toy guns "just like Rambo's". Obviously my youngest was exposed to these kinds of movies too (I was outnumbered 3 to 1). While there were certain video games that I thought were too graphic for my youngest that my oldest couldn't play until his brother went to bed, I'd rather have them watch graphic violence than graphic sex. And until they reached a certain level of maturity they certainly weren't allowed to watch slasher horror films with me.
Right now, though, "why" is a normal question and we really should find out as much as we can to answer it, but the "what to do" about it need to wait until we're more rational.
Cindie
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I forgot to mention that I do not think that culture is entirely to blame. The guy in China wasn't ezposed to graphic violence and from what I know the typical Asian family has a much stricter way of handling their kids then we in the west do even if its in a communist country. They tend to have more disiplone in the family then we do but then again I could be wrong. The problem with that kd may never be found out since he shot himself which seems to be a trend when this happenes. The only thing to d ois try and find a way to help those that need it and to maybe put those that can't be helped away someplace where they can't hurt anyone.
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Schizophrenia is a psychosis not a personality disorder although schizoid personality disorder which is on the severe end of the schizo spectrum is. The distinction is important because personality disorders are much harder to treat than a psychosis. The problem with schizophrenia is that when they feel better they tend to go off of their meds. While people with personality disorders can have a psychotic break, it's not an ongoing characteristic as with schizophrenia.
Son of Sam had severe paranoia (a symptom of schizophrenia) and heard voices telling him to kill, I'm not sure mass killers like this do. This is such a selfish, egotistical thing to do (even if they die or kill themselves the know before they do it they'll be famous or at least be a center of attention for a while). And these people plan these things, maybe not for months and months, but the guy who shot up the theater actually made sure he went to a theater that was a "gun free zone". Then again, I think people with personality disorders can go through life without any real problems. Look at the narcissist in chief.
I have no clue what to do about to prevent these things from happening. I do think there's a pattern being that the majority are young white males. Society is failing them in so many ways. And I don't think the country can begin to move beyond knee-jerk reactions until the shock wears off and the nation can think more clearly (not necessarily the parents who lost their babies or the community surrounding Sandy Hook). Right now every news channel has a different psychiatrist on trying to diagnose this kid or to explain why this happens but neither they nor anyone else has enough information to make sense of this. Maybe we never will.
In between the psychiatrists there are the pro & con (mostly pro) gun control crowd. Whether the anti gun crowd manages to restrict gun rights or not, these purely evil people will find a way to get guns if they want. We, as a society, need to find a way to help our young men before they reach this stage. Our society focuses so heavily on girls that boys get lost in the shuffle. But is this a symptom or not? I don't know but it's just as valid as looking at anything else.
I don't think the whole "violent video games & movies" plays a role, either, but people are going to be inclined to prove this plays a role. My oldest son, from the time he was 4, his favorite movie was Rambo. There were times when he'd watch it more than once a day and he had to have toy guns "just like Rambo's". Obviously my youngest was exposed to these kinds of movies too (I was outnumbered 3 to 1). While there were certain video games that I thought were too graphic for my youngest that my oldest couldn't play until his brother went to bed, I'd rather have them watch graphic violence than graphic sex. And until they reached a certain level of maturity they certainly weren't allowed to watch slasher horror films with me.
Right now, though, "why" is a normal question and we really should find out as much as we can to answer it, but the "what to do" about it need to wait until we're more rational.
Cindie
My mistake.I got schizotypal and schizophrenia mixed up.
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Why is it that whenever one of these nut cases goes off, the media can find all sorts of classmates, friends, teachers, school admins and neighbors to speculate on what went wrong with the moron....
But they never seem to find the Pastor, Priest, Minister, Rabbi or fellow church/synagogue members who can remember them?
....and they never interview a person that says, "That boy needed his ass kicked."
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I have sisters who are longtime teachers in West By God.
They say their schools have whole families where every child is receiving SSI for some kind of mental disability.
It's the sort of thing that trailer trash parents just sign their kids up for automatically, and they get a check every month.
In the past, if there were any snags, you would just contact Senator Byrd's office.
In some areas, adult males get black lung benefits almost as easily - all they have to do is prove time working underground.
Any problem, you contact Senator Byrd or your congressman. I'm sure they haven't missed a beat since Byrd died.
Of course that's all anecdotal, but I'd bet the farm it's accurate.
So, when you hear talk about expanding benefits for mental illness, just remember you're opening a Pandora's box of untold dimensions.
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Some of you have said that there was a psychological component or cause to the Connecticut tragedy. I can agree with that. I would think that in every murder there is some sort of psychological component or cause.
Some of you have said that the number psychological problems in this country are increasing. I can't dispute that, and I'm more than willing to take your word for it.
Some of you have said that you don't belief cultural or societal influences or lack thereof can be labeled as the cause. I don't know.
What I do know is that nature abhors a vacuum. We've removed so much of the morality and responsibility that was once taught in schools, and something has to fill that vacuum. Apparently it's not additional academics that is filling the vacuum because around here the test scores are constantly dropping.
When I was in school we said the Pledge of Allegiance every morning. We were taught manners. We said grace before going to lunch. After lunch we read the Bible. All of this was in a public school. Even if they have increased, psychological problems are not something that is new. Surely during my twelve years of public school we had a few people with psychological problems, but through it all we never had a school massacre. I can't remember a single school massacre any where in the country during my twelve years.
I have to find it suspicious that school massacres began AFTER our schools were liberalized. I'm not discounting other reasons contribute to these massacres. I'm just saying that we can't ignore the fact that these things begin after we, as a nation, began turning from everything good and decent.
Maybe in the past the teachers and neighbors were more concerned about the actual individual's wellbeing instead of feelings. Maybe this resulted in potential perpetrators being cut off at the pass. I don't know.
I do know that nothing will bring these adults and children back to life. I do know that the liberals will use this tragedy to get their agenda forward. And I suspect that the forwarding of their agenda will ultimately cause many more problems that it solves.
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So, when you hear talk about expanding benefits for mental illness, just remember you're opening a Pandora's box of untold dimensions.
I don't hear anyone talk about expanding benefits for mental illness. I hear people state that those with mental illness are not getting access to services they need.
Why? Because of the misfits of society you speak of, and at the DU suck the system dry. A system that was set up for those who truly need it (have significant disabilities, be that physical, cognitive or mental illness).
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My mistake.I got schizotypal and schizophrenia mixed up.
Oh how could you not? The whole mental health system is crazier than the people they're trying to "cure".
Cindie
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I think its more of a good vs evil thing. The constant bashing of everything good is giving more power to everything evil. When you turn out the light at night the darkness takes over. Makes me think of the cartoons I watched when I was a boy with the devil on one shoulder and an angel on the other, both trying to convince the person to do things their way. Well the angel's argument has been weekend by all the anti Christian BS that's been pumped in our head recently so in weak minds the devil wins and evil takes over.
I know I have a simple mind. How to combat the evil that seems to be taking over? All I can think to do is pray.
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Those bruises on your hands healed up yet from smacking the ADHD out of Jake honey? :-)
Please. Not to mention the interaction between him and my autistic I e when the Autsie senses his brother is going over a cliff. Yikes.
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I believe the genetic connection relates largely to the susceptibility to vaccine injury (as the majority of children who get vaccines are clearly not autistic). I don't know if there is a main cause of autism, but I do know that in the early 90s the rate of this disability took off through the roof. You don't go from 1 in 10,000 to 1 in 88 on better diagnosis, or overdiagnosis. Something is up, and precious few in Congress seems to care to find out why.
There is a tsunami of children who are aging out of school services (turning 21, and 22). They are profoundly affected by autism and will require intense adult services. The government will no longer be able to ignore the problem then. There was a Congressman at the hearing (forget his name off the top of my head) who had his seat for almost 30 years. He talked about the CDC pleading with them over AIDS, it's an epidemic that requires Congress to act. 1 in 88 for autism? meh, nothing to see here. The same urgency you won't find which is mind boggling to me to say the very least.
My cousin was born prior to that increase on vaccinations. And autistics have been around before the prevalence as well. I don't consider my family to be part of the vaccination group you are referring to or that a specific injury is had from it. In our case we also paced vaccination slower then the recommend. I'm sorry but I'm not part of the group that believes vaccines are responsible. At least not in my case and I'm more focused on that because of the genetic consequences for my own children as they go in to have their own families. As long as all the avenues are being evaluated as to the cause then there's no harm in our differing opinions on this.
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I went with the dr's schedule for vaccinations on all my kids. So far so good. I really have no idea why there is such a huge influx of autism or something like it.