The Conservative Cave
Current Events => General Discussion => Topic started by: CactusCarlos on November 27, 2012, 02:24:15 PM
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CASTLE ROCK, Colo. (CBS4) – Dog debarking surgery is being performed at animal hospitals across the country, including Colorado, but at least one veterinarian told CBS4 it is a touchy issue.
Castle Rock resident Dawn Hern told CBS4 she had no choice but the surgery because her dog simply would not stop barking.
Most cities have a noise ordinance, and Hern had already received complaints, fines and even a court summons about her barking dog. She doesn’t care who thinks she’s cruel; she simply didn’t want her dog taken away from her.
The rest: http://denver.cbslocal.com/2012/11/25/dog-owners-turn-to-debarking-surgery-to-keep-their-dogs/
We don't currently have a dog, but wondered how everyone else would feel about this.
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Sounds cruel to me.
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Horrific. I can't imagine. :bawl:
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I couldn't do that to any dog. Our dog serves as an intruder alert by barking when someone walks up the sidewalk.
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I'm torn. I agree with you guys but they lady didn't want to lose her dog. Is she being selfish? Would it have been better for her to give it away?
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I would have no problem with the surgery, PROVIDED that there is some sort of evidence that states that a dog undergoing the barking process believes it's barking, regardless of the amount of noise emanating from said dog.
IOW, if the dog thinks it's barking but is emitting only that soft sound and doesn't know the difference (rather than get frustrated at the lack of volume and try to make up for it), it sounds like a win-win to me.
One of the problems we humans have is anthropomorphizing our animals. We feel sorry for them because of what's happened to them, but most of the time those dogs have moved beyond that point of time in their lives.
I believe that dogs live in the moment. The only beings that get hung up on the past are us.
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I don't go in for those sorts of surgeries, such as declawing cats. But I think in this narrow specific instance it might be worth exploring.
Castle Rock resident Dawn Hern told CBS4 she had no choice but the surgery because her dog simply would not stop barking.
Most cities have a noise ordinance, and Hern had already received complaints, fines and even a court summons about her barking dog. She doesn’t care who thinks she’s cruel; she simply didn’t want her dog taken away from her.
They aren't out in the country, where I would never approve of the surgery. It's a choice between this, and separating two things who presumably love each other. I think of the dog ending up at the pound and worse. A constant barker is going to be a hard sell for a giveaway.
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I've just recently heard about people doing this to their dogs.
I guess it makes sense in order to have a companion, but it still seems kind of weird. If you want an animal that doesn't make any noise, why would you get a dog in the first place?
The main reason I detest birds (sorry Euph) is the noise they make. It might as well be "chalk on a chalkboard" to me, as their noise often makes me feel the same way. I would never buy a bird, then remove it's voicebox or whatever it is they have, just so it would not make noise. Why alter an animal like that, to accommodate my ears?
Makes much more sense to not get a bird in the first place.
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I've just recently heard about people doing this to their dogs.
I guess it makes sense in order to have a companion, but it still seems kind of weird. If you want an animal that doesn't make any noise, why would you get a dog in the first place?
The main reason I detest birds (sorry Euph) is the noise they make. It might as well be "chalk on a chalkboard" to me, as their noise often makes me feel the same way. I would never buy a bird, then remove it's voicebox or whatever it is they have, just so it would not make noise. Why alter an animal like that, to accommodate my ears?
Makes much more sense to not get a bird in the first place.
Big difference between dogs and birds, and not just because one has feathers and the other doesn't. :lmao:
Comparatively speaking, we know very little about companion birds, mostly parrots. We've not had the benefit of having them around us for tens of thousands of years, like we've had dogs.
In short, I agree with you about birds in that they can be (some species are actually known to be pretty quiet) quite loud. Considering that birds' are much more vocal than dogs are (dogs communicate largely through body language and they learn about their environment mostly through their nose and to a lesser extent, vision and hearing), I can't imagine having a companion parrot just to remove its syrinx. That would be cruel, because a bird very much does depend on what it's saying and more important, how loud it is.
It's how they communicate in the wild, and considering that parrots are only a couple of generations from being in the wild, they haven't yet learned (and perhaps never will learn) to tone down their vocalizing to accommodate humans.
In short, if you have a potential problem with landlords or neighbors, don't get a macaw or a cockatoo. They're loud. But an eclectus, on the other hand, tends to be very quiet.
All birds are not loud.
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Big difference between dogs and birds, and not just because one has feathers and the other doesn't. :lmao:
yes, Virginia, there is a difference. :tongue:
All birds are not loud.
It's not a question of being loud, it's the chirp, tweet or whatever noise it is. I guess it's the tone? pitch?
I won't even have birdhouses outside. Birdhouses bring more even birds around.
The talking parrots, et al can do? I find fascinating.
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yes, Virginia, there is a difference. :tongue:
It's not a question of being loud, it's the chirp, tweet or whatever noise it is. I guess it's the tone? pitch?
I won't even have birdhouses outside. Birdhouses bring more even birds around.
The talking parrots, et al can do? I find fascinating.
I got it. You're not keen on birds. Okay.
My point stands, however, on how this operation could be beneficial for dogs and owners, assuming that some sort of evidence could be produced based on science that dogs could not just survive but even thrive, without having the capability of barking.
Dogs communicate largely through body language -- not necessarily their barking, though admittedly their barking serves as an early warning device. Hey, if you have to have one of those, get yourself a burglar alarm :whistling:
(I strongly urge dog lovers to pick up a copy of this book - it's very revealing and insightful -- I'm about halfway through reading it myself.)
http://insideofadog.com/author.php
Some dog barks - like the lap dogs (chihuahuas, Yorkies, etc) go right through me. Can't stand it. :panic:
Give me a righteous bellow any time (well, not at 2 A.M., thanks) versus one of those lap dog yips.
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Euph, I get where you are going, but I am just opposed to any medically unnecessary surgery in my dog or in myself. Angus had a separation barking problem, and for a while, I had to live in an apartment. I either took him to doggie day care, or let him stay at my boyfriend's house during the day.
I just can't even envision a situation where that would be ok in my book, much like declawing a cat. Not that I have cats, but it seems the same to me.
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Just wondering, I know someone who uses a "bark collar". Is THAT better than surgery ?
A neighbor has a dog that refuses to stay outside. It constantly barks until it is let inside. I noticed it has not been barking lately because it is very seldom outside now. Maybe the other neighbors called the township.
My dog only barks loudly when he wants a treat. :whatever:
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Just wondering, I know someone who uses a "bark collar". Is THAT better than surgery ?
A neighbor has a dog that refuses to stay outside. It constantly barks until it is let inside. I noticed it has not been barking lately because it is very seldom outside now. Maybe the other neighbors called the township.
My dog only barks loudly when he wants a treat. :whatever:
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My opinion:
Devocalization surgery (vocal cord removal)- bad. Does not address the underlying behavior, can frustrate the dog.
Shock collars- good. Simple negative reinforcement (bark=pain) changes behavior.
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Barking is a way a dog communicates with and to us, imo... I could never do that to a dog.
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Is the debarking surgery the real issue here or that the woman got a freaking court summons for the dog barking.
Oh wait its Colorado nearly every stupid policy I see in the news is from Colorado. They are the state that banned rosary beads and Peyton Manning jerseys in schools because they were gang symbols.
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I think if I had a dog that barked excessively, I would fimd out what sets her off...and get her some help.... advice from a dog trainer, vetinarian, dog whisperer, whoever...
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I'd say that it's a given that any consideration made toward surgery would be a last resort.
You just don't go to the knife without investigating alternative measures.
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I'd say that it's a given that any consideration made toward surgery would be a last resort.
You just don't go to the knife without investigating alternative measures.
Yes, but my frustration with this ignorant POS, is that she didn't research what was distressing the dog till she got a summons. Now she is in a snit, because they want to have the dog devocalized... I feel bad for the dog.....
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Can we "debark" DUmmies?
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Yes, but my frustration with this ignorant POS, is that she didn't research what was distressing the dog till she got a summons. Now she is in a snit, because they want to have the dog devocalized... I feel bad for the dog.....
Understood. Stupidity runs rampant in this country. Beyond this ignorant POS, I'm thinking the larger question is whether or not surgery is something to be considered or not at all. It's a divisive issue - some, like Tots, says NFW. That's her call.
I'm proposing something a little different based on a couple of things:
1. Looking at the dog as a dog - not as a person. Believe it or not, this is hard to do. We get a pet, we treat that pet like we want to be treated. That means we channel our own sense of those qualities as a HUMAN and we utterly forget about what the ANIMAL sees, expects, and appreciates. All too often, we get emotional and channel our HUMAN empathies and considerations toward animals. Some believe this is the way to go all the time and the scientists call this kind of thing "anthropomorphizing." I believe behaving that way toward animals does the animal a disservice (but it makes US feel all warm 'n fuzzy inside).
2. In that light, if it can be demonstrated through factual evidence and not through emotion, illogic, or other HUMAN quality that it makes no difference to the dog physically or psychologically whether his bark is running at 110 decibels or merely 70, that it would be prudent for the dog to have the surgery.
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Understood. Stupidity runs rampant in this country. Beyond this ignorant POS, I'm thinking the larger question is whether or not surgery is something to be considered or not at all. It's a divisive issue - some, like Tots, says NFW. That's her call.
I'm proposing something a little different based on a couple of things:
1. Looking at the dog as a dog - not as a person. Believe it or not, this is hard to do. We get a pet, we treat that pet like we want to be treated. That means we channel our own sense of those qualities as a HUMAN and we utterly forget about what the ANIMAL sees, expects, and appreciates. All too often, we get emotional and channel our HUMAN empathies and considerations toward animals. Some believe this is the way to go all the time and the scientists call this kind of thing "anthropomorphizing." I believe behaving that way toward animals does the animal a disservice (but it makes US feel all warm 'n fuzzy inside).
2. In that light, if it can be demonstrated through factual evidence and not through emotion, illogic, or other HUMAN quality that it makes no difference to the dog physically or psychologically whether his bark is running at 110 decibels or merely 70, that it would be prudent for the dog to have the surgery.
1. I couldn't agree with you more on that. My dog is a dog, not a little person. It was a rough start, but I wanted to have the best relationship with this dog, and knew I needed to revisit the way I had cared for pets in the past.
2. I am willing to concede that if that statement were verified I wouldn't be as opposed, but I am not a fan of putting a dog or human under the knife unless it is medically necessary to do so. Regardless of the procedure.