The Conservative Cave
Current Events => General Discussion => Topic started by: BEG on May 29, 2008, 09:33:13 AM
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http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/05/27/earlyshow/main4130288.shtml
Kindergartner Voted Out By Students
Outraged Mom Of Special Needs Son Talks Exclusively With The Early Show
Alex Barton, 5, a special needs student, was voted out of his Florida kindergarten class. (CBS)
(CBS) A Port St. Lucie, Fla., mother is outraged and considering legal action after her son's kindergarten teacher led his classmates to vote him out of class.
Melissa Barton says Morningside Elementary teacher Wendy Portillo had her son's classmates say what they didn't like about 5-year-old Alex. She says the teacher then had the students vote, and voted Alex, who is being evaluated for Asperger's syndrome -- an autism spectrum disorder -- out of the class by a 14-2 margin.
*snip*
I heard the mom on Fox this morning say this teacher has tenure. This really pisses me off. :censored:
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Why is it always Florida?
:fuelfire:
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Why is it always Florida?
:fuelfire:
It's always either Florida or Texas.
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A kindergarten teacher has tenure?
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How does a school teacher have tenure, surely it can't be safe to have staff you can't fire.
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A kindergarten teacher has tenure?
That is what the mom said.
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That is not even close to legal.
Kids have a right to an education.
If the kid needs special education, this needs to be diagnosed, and it needs to be determined that he can benefit from special education. The parents are to give their permission before taking the kid out of regular classes and into special ed. The parents are to give their permission before anything.
I hope the evaluation had parental permission added to it, because that also requires approval.
Not to mention that by law, except in the most extreme circumstances, a kid is to be placed in the most least restrictive environment. Even if the kid does have Autism, the IEP team (who makes out his educational program) is to ensure he's still with kids who don't have disabilities as often as possible.
There is a process for all of this stuff, and it doesn't involve a classroom vote.
This was not even close to legal. :banghead:
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an excellent argument for homeschooling . . . or private schools.
and wendy portillo has apparently been removed from the classroom. and there are some even more disgusting details here (http://www.mahalo.com/Wendy_Portillo), although I can't really vouch for the credibility of the website.
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Watch this Video.....towards the end of the clip she said that the teacher said she doesn't feel like she has done anything wrong. Then she goes on to say that a lot of people don't think they have done anything wrong...Al-Qaeda for one. Harry Smith wanted to skip past that remark really quick like. :p
http://www.breitbart.tv/?p=103693&comments=1
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How does a school teacher have tenure, surely it can't be safe to have staff you can't fire.
That would seem to be the common sense approach but teachers have tenure none the less.
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Many of the comments attached to that story are absolutely vile. They are essentially saying that "mainstreaming" punishes the "normal" kids.
Folks, this is kindergarten. 5 year olds. And the teacher had OTHER 5 year olds hold a popularity contest and then illegally evicted him.
If I was this kid's mom, I would meet that teacher in a freaking back alley and "vote" her off (I am a guy so I couldn't hit a woman).
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Many of the comments attached to that story are absolutely vile. They are essentially saying that "mainstreaming" punishes the "normal" kids.
Folks, this is kindergarten. 5 year olds. And the teacher had OTHER 5 year olds hold a popularity contest and then illegally evicted him.
If I was this kid's mom, I would meet that teacher in a freaking back alley and "vote" her off (I am a guy so I couldn't hit a woman).
those comments are not only vile, the people that made them are ignorant. they are completely missing the point. this simply isn't a "mainstreaming vs. not mainstreaming" argument. it's about a teacher's malfeasance.
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http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/05/27/earlyshow/main4130288.shtml
Kindergartner Voted Out By Students
Outraged Mom Of Special Needs Son Talks Exclusively With The Early Show
Alex Barton, 5, a special needs student, was voted out of his Florida kindergarten class. (CBS)
(CBS) A Port St. Lucie, Fla., mother is outraged and considering legal action after her son's kindergarten teacher led his classmates to vote him out of class.
Melissa Barton says Morningside Elementary teacher Wendy Portillo had her son's classmates say what they didn't like about 5-year-old Alex. She says the teacher then had the students vote, and voted Alex, who is being evaluated for Asperger's syndrome -- an autism spectrum disorder -- out of the class by a 14-2 margin.
*snip*
I heard the mom on Fox this morning say this teacher has tenure. This really pisses me off. :censored:
She had no business putting a burden like that on 5 year olds. This is a far cry from my son's school that asks our permission every year to have his special needs teacher talk in front of his 'normal' class and explain to them the issues Ryan has and how he may act different and how inside he still has feelings, likes to play, wants to participate, etc.
So far we've had 2 good years and the children include him in the fold because at that age the teacher very much sets the tone for how other children should be treated. this woman dropped the ball on this one.
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That is not even close to legal.
Kids have a right to an education.
If the kid needs special education, this needs to be diagnosed, and it needs to be determined that he can benefit from special education. The parents are to give their permission before taking the kid out of regular classes and into special ed. The parents are to give their permission before anything.
I hope the evaluation had parental permission added to it, because that also requires approval.
Not to mention that by law, except in the most extreme circumstances, a kid is to be placed in the most least restrictive environment. Even if the kid does have Autism, the IEP team (who makes out his educational program) is to ensure he's still with kids who don't have disabilities as often as possible.
There is a process for all of this stuff, and it doesn't involve a classroom vote.
This was not even close to legal. :banghead:
Lanie, I'm glad to see you participate in something other then the NU thing. Appreciate your opinion. Hope you will continue to contribute in this way.
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Many of the comments attached to that story are absolutely vile. They are essentially saying that "mainstreaming" punishes the "normal" kids.
Folks, this is kindergarten. 5 year olds. And the teacher had OTHER 5 year olds hold a popularity contest and then illegally evicted him.
If I was this kid's mom, I would meet that teacher in a freaking back alley and "vote" her off (I am a guy so I couldn't hit a woman).
At that age, it doesn't. My son is autistic as many of you know. He attends normal class for the parts he can participate in and even some schoolwork(with an aide who works with them at their desks so the teacher can teach--she usually tends to 2 or 3 special needs children who are capable of desk work). Other subjects where he is behind like math and reading he goes to his special education teacher IN A DIFFERENT ROOM and they teach him those in a way appropriate for his disability. I don't think a special needs child should be forced to be mainstreamed entirely into a regular class, but by the same token just their very presence in the room for the things they can do and to be with other children is not 'punishing or hindering' other children either. Normal children(and I have 2) really do learn some valuable lessons in empathy too when they have to interact with other children who have disabilities.
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Wendy Portillo shouldn't be allowed anywhere near children. What a scumbag!
And statistically a 90% chance she's a B. Hussein Osama follower.
.
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Many of the comments attached to that story are absolutely vile. They are essentially saying that "mainstreaming" punishes the "normal" kids.
Folks, this is kindergarten. 5 year olds. And the teacher had OTHER 5 year olds hold a popularity contest and then illegally evicted him.
If I was this kid's mom, I would meet that teacher in a freaking back alley and "vote" her off (I am a guy so I couldn't hit a woman).
At that age, it doesn't. My son is autistic as many of you know. He attends normal class for the parts he can participate in and even some schoolwork(with an aide who works with them at their desks so the teacher can teach--she usually tends to 2 or 3 special needs children who are capable of desk work). Other subjects where he is behind like math and reading he goes to his special education teacher IN A DIFFERENT ROOM and they teach him those in a way appropriate for his disability. I don't think a special needs child should be forced to be mainstreamed entirely into a regular class, but by the same token just their very presence in the room for the things they can do and to be with other children is not 'punishing or hindering' other children either. Normal children(and I have 2) really do learn some valuable lessons in empathy too when they have to interact with other children who have disabilities.
Ding, ding, ding. When I was a youngster, a few centuries ago, we had no such thing as special ed. Sure we had children with various disabilities, but we managed without any problems at all. It was understood by all that a few of the other children were different and we were expected to help out. It was never an inconvenience of any kind because we never saw it that way. The idea of a vote like this one would have been met with stunned silence.
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Wendy Portillo shouldn't be allowed anywhere near children. What a scumbag!
And statistically a 90% chance she's a B. Hussein Osama follower.
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...or a Paulbot....considering propensity for bias toward others.
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Ding, ding, ding. When I was a youngster, a few centuries ago, we had no such thing as special ed. Sure we had children with various disabilities, but we managed without any problems at all. It was understood by all that a few of the other children were different and we were expected to help out. It was never an inconvenience of any kind because we never saw it that way. The idea of a vote like this one would have been met with stunned silence.
I agree to an extent........however in my secondary school years there was no attempt to "mainstream" significant numbers of severely disabled children to the detriment of normal classroom activities, which I see happening today. Further, the focus of the classroom was never even remotely centered on teaching "empathy"....it was understood to an limited degree. Our teachers were charged with teaching reading writing, and math skills. We learned our "social skills" either at home (after school) or on the playground.
doc
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Ding, ding, ding. When I was a youngster, a few centuries ago, we had no such thing as special ed. Sure we had children with various disabilities, but we managed without any problems at all. It was understood by all that a few of the other children were different and we were expected to help out. It was never an inconvenience of any kind because we never saw it that way. The idea of a vote like this one would have been met with stunned silence.
I agree to an extent........however in my secondary school years there was no attempt to "mainstream" significant numbers of severely disabled children to the detriment of normal classroom activities, which I see happening today. Further, the focus of the classroom was never even remotely centered on teaching "empathy"....it was understood to an limited degree. Our teachers were charged with teaching reading writing, and math skills. We learned our "social skills" either at home (after school) or on the playground.
doc
The disabilities of the children I was talking about were not that severe, and yes our social skills were learned at home and were put into use in the classroom. Those classroom situations made it clear why we were taught those things at home.
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...or a Paulbot....considering propensity for bias toward others.
I'm not going to dwell on this because this whole issue touches close to home for me; my 12 yr old daughter has Aspergers. But I will give this observation, though I can't say it's true everywhere. The teachers who have cared about her are the "Every child is God's creation and deserves to be provided every opportunity any other child in this classromm is afforded" type, and they've been overwhelmingly conservative. The others just want to push them through, give them a passing grade, and move them on to be someone else's "problem." The principal at her old school is one of the biggest libs around here, and his whole mission was "Let's all be happy, there are no problems, and if we just pretend they don't exist then they'll go away." He, along with several teachers who were like him, were "the others" to whom I was referencing. It was a struggle the whole time. Since she's been in private school, it's been a dream.
I have no doubt this scummy teacher was like that, too.
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Ding, ding, ding. When I was a youngster, a few centuries ago, we had no such thing as special ed. Sure we had children with various disabilities, but we managed without any problems at all. It was understood by all that a few of the other children were different and we were expected to help out. It was never an inconvenience of any kind because we never saw it that way. The idea of a vote like this one would have been met with stunned silence.
I agree to an extent........however in my secondary school years there was no attempt to "mainstream" significant numbers of severely disabled children to the detriment of normal classroom activities, which I see happening today. Further, the focus of the classroom was never even remotely centered on teaching "empathy"....it was understood to an limited degree. Our teachers were charged with teaching reading writing, and math skills. We learned our "social skills" either at home (after school) or on the playground.
doc
Empathy is a side lesson, doc, not the primary one, but its still not a bad one to get in situations detached from one's parents and like it or not as long as children will be with someone other then their parents for 7 hours a day they are going to learn about behavioral lessons from someone else(and I would consider teachers a part of a child's 'immediate community' when they spend so much time with them).
Aside from that, are you trying to tell me that kindergartners or grade schoolers in general have no activities in which autistic children could participate in? There is no point that an autistic child could be mainstreamed? None at all? I can think of several at that level. Remember, we are discussing KINDERGARTEN here, not 8th grade. I can think of any number of activities during kindergarten that an autistic child is perfectly capable of being a part of and would be no more disruptive then your average 5 year old. If they have an aid, that aid will generally know if the situation has become overwhelming BEFORE the child can disrupt too.
Moving on to USA's comments now...
USA, our experiences conflict once again my friend. Unfortunately, my experience has been to find far more cmpassion and understanding with liberal teachers and people in general. The attitude is sadly one of where..well they may believe in abortion, for example, but once a child is here they will move hell and high water to accomodate that child and see to it they are treated dignity, respect, and honor their unique capabilities.They take the time to engage my son and don't look at him as some obstacle hindering their day. It has been quite the opposite experience I'm afraid with conservatives. My experience there has been oftentimes that they would want every child born, but then seem to have no room for 'inconvenient children' in their world once they are here.
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Ding, ding, ding. When I was a youngster, a few centuries ago, we had no such thing as special ed. Sure we had children with various disabilities, but we managed without any problems at all. It was understood by all that a few of the other children were different and we were expected to help out. It was never an inconvenience of any kind because we never saw it that way. The idea of a vote like this one would have been met with stunned silence.
I agree to an extent........however in my secondary school years there was no attempt to "mainstream" significant numbers of severely disabled children to the detriment of normal classroom activities, which I see happening today. Further, the focus of the classroom was never even remotely centered on teaching "empathy"....it was understood to an limited degree. Our teachers were charged with teaching reading writing, and math skills. We learned our "social skills" either at home (after school) or on the playground.
doc
Empathy is a side lesson, doc, not the primary one, but its still not a bad one to get in situations detached from one's parents and like it or not as long as children will be with someone other then their parents for 7 hours a day they are going to learn about behavioral lessons from someone else(and I would consider teachers a part of a child's 'immediate community' when they spend so much time with them).
Aside from that, are you trying to tell me that kindergartners or grade schoolers in general have no activities in which autistic children could participate in? There is no point that an autistic child could be mainstreamed? None at all? I can think of several at that level. Remember, we are discussing KINDERGARTEN here, not 8th grade. I can think of any number of activities during kindergarten that an autistic child is perfectly capable of being a part of and would be no more disruptive then your average 5 year old. If they have an aid, that aid will generally know if the situation has become overwhelming BEFORE the child can disrupt too.
Moving on to USA's comments now...
USA, our experiences conflict once again my friend. Unfortunately, my experience has been to find far more cmpassion and understanding with liberal teachers and people in general. The attitude is sadly one of where..well they may believe in abortion, for example, but once a child is here they will move hell and high water to accomodate that child and see to it they are treated dignity, respect, and honor their unique capabilities.They take the time to engage my son and don't look at him as some obstacle hindering their day. It has been quite the opposite experience I'm afraid with conservatives. My experience there has been oftentimes that they would want every child born, but then seem to have no room for 'inconvenient children' in their world once they are here.
I'm not questioning what you stated jty but how do you and USA know what political views your children's teachers have? I have yet to know any of my kids teachers political views. I have had a feeling but the teachers who I have a feeling about have been my son's high school teachers but I have never had a conversation with any of them that made me 100% positive what their political leanings were. I have never known a political view of one of my elementary school kids teachers. The only person in my kids elementary that I know the political views of for sure is the librarian because I have a friend that works in the library and she told me that the librarian supports Obama and was offended by an email that was circulating about him.
**edtied to add: I volunteer in each of my kids classes (except for when they get to middle or high school). I got to know each teacher exceptionally well and we never got on the subject of politics.
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BEG, I have been to their homes and have taken wedding photographs of one of his teachers. You tend to get a little more personal here with your children's teachers when your child has autism. I don't ask them outright, but you get to know them more personally and get comfortable with one another. Of course, the stickers on their cars sometimes give you a clue too :-)
I was also talking generally aside from teachers. I've had a hell of a time dealing with people in church who are self-identified as conservative. I won't elaborate, but I mean even aside from autism. Just cold, disinterested individuals. Let's put it this way. The conservatives I DO KNOW, are normally a bit more uncomfortable around him. The liberals I KNOW seem to go out of their way to get to know him and include him. They are far more comfortable with his disability.
Hopefully that clarifies somewhat.
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Empathy is a side lesson, doc, not the primary one, but its still not a bad one to get in situations detached from one's parents and like it or not as long as children will be with someone other then their parents for 7 hours a day they are going to learn about behavioral lessons from someone else(and I would consider teachers a part of a child's 'immediate community' when they spend so much time with them).
We will have to agree to disagree......I can only speak from my experience, but it seems that when "empathy", and "self esteem" became common phrases in our educational system, kids began graduating from HS without the ability to read, or make change in a business environment.....
I think that there is certainly a place in the educational system for children with disabilities....so long as they do not interfere, in any manner, with the progress of the class as a whole. If a teacher is spending an inordinate amount of his/her time attempting to control/coach/lead/compensate several "special needs" children, and the remainder of the class is sitting there waiting for the next set of instructions in order to progress, the class as a whole is being deprived of their due.
I have no problem with classes for special ed kids, but I have a BIG problem with "mainstreaming", in its various permutations....I've seen it in action, and to an extent, the normal kids are getting robbed.....
Instead of empathy in the classroom, I would expect teachers to spend that time on discipline.......
doc
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BEG, I have been to their homes and have taken wedding photographs of one of his teachers. You tend to get a little more personal here with your children's teachers when your child has autism. I don't ask them outright, but you get to know them more personally and get comfortable with one another. Of course, the stickers on their cars sometimes give you a clue too :-)
I was also talking generally aside from teachers. I've had a hell of a time dealing with people in church who are self-identified as conservative. I won't elaborate, but I mean even aside from autism. Just cold, disinterested individuals. Let's put it this way. The conservatives I DO KNOW, are normally a bit more uncomfortable around him. The liberals I KNOW seem to go out of their way to get to know him and include him. They are far more comfortable with his disability.
Hopefully that clarifies somewhat.
I can see how you would get to know your son's teachers on a more personal level that I would my kids. Thanks for clarifying it for me.
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How does a school teacher have tenure, surely it can't be safe to have staff you can't fire.
Yup, know many parents that have had major problems with a teacher that the district just moves around from school to school due to tenure...
Speaking of....this guy (link below) was from my old town in Illinois...they fired him anways.....but cost the district tons of money and it is still costing...the guy is a real nut job...every girl that had him in middle school said he loved to look down their shirts...sicko.
http://thehiddencostsoftenure.com/stories/?prcss=display&id=266541
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What a horrible example of a human being.....and the fact that she's around children is even more disturbing. If I were this mom...I would surely approach this "teacher"...and I then may be on trial shortly thereafter.. :chairshot:
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That's horrible. I can't believe a freaking kindergarten teacher would do that to a child!
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Okay, that was overboard. The teacher thinks this is Survivor. :mental: Yeah, I know kids can be a real handful, but to humilate one like that is just out of line, especially by a teacher who encouraged other students to vote him off. The teacher is already vilified on various blogs. It would not surprise me if she is getting harassed.
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Okay, that was overboard. The teacher thinks this is Survivor. :mental: Yeah, I know kids can be a real handful, but to humilate one like that is just out of line, especially by a teacher who encouraged other students to vote him off. The teacher is already vilified on various blogs. It would not surprise me if she is getting harassed.
I remember public school teachers that did stuff like this....every year, they had to single out one student....not fun if you were that kid.
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I have no idea what side of the political spectrum my son's teachers are on. What I do know is, he can listen to the Rush Limbaugh show and repeat verbatim what he heard. That ought to give those librul teachers a little "whatfor" in the classroom. :lmao:
As far as the kindergarten teacher goes, she is scum of the earth and doesn't belong in a classroom.
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I have no idea what school my kids go to.
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Empathy is a side lesson, doc, not the primary one, but its still not a bad one to get in situations detached from one's parents and like it or not as long as children will be with someone other then their parents for 7 hours a day they are going to learn about behavioral lessons from someone else(and I would consider teachers a part of a child's 'immediate community' when they spend so much time with them).
We will have to agree to disagree......I can only speak from my experience, but it seems that when "empathy", and "self esteem" became common phrases in our educational system, kids began graduating from HS without the ability to read, or make change in a business environment.....
I think that there is certainly a place in the educational system for children with disabilities....so long as they do not interfere, in any manner, with the progress of the class as a whole. If a teacher is spending an inordinate amount of his/her time attempting to control/coach/lead/compensate several "special needs" children, and the remainder of the class is sitting there waiting for the next set of instructions in order to progress, the class as a whole is being deprived of their due.
I have no problem with classes for special ed kids, but I have a BIG problem with "mainstreaming", in its various permutations....I've seen it in action, and to an extent, the normal kids are getting robbed.....
Instead of empathy in the classroom, I would expect teachers to spend that time on discipline.......
doc
discipline.......
I'm assuming you believe that you can "discipline" a disability out of a child? Please correct me if thats not what you meant. Children with autism/asperger spectrum disablities don't respond well to being "disciplined" in the traditional way one would discipline a "normal" child. Their brains don't operate the same way. As far as teaching empathy goes If they were getting that lesson at home there would be no need to teach it at school. I've seen kids at the school my boys go to {public school in a pretty conservative upscale district} act like complete little assholes arrogant,selfish,self absorbed and absolutely no ability to empathize with anyone. Wonder where they learned this behaviour? Just a 2 minute conversation with one of their parents tells you everything you need to know. These people raise their children like little princes and princesses. You can't question or expect anything out of "Their child" because "Their child is perfect in every way. Kids live what they learn and see at home Tvdoc.
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Empathy is a side lesson, doc, not the primary one, but its still not a bad one to get in situations detached from one's parents and like it or not as long as children will be with someone other then their parents for 7 hours a day they are going to learn about behavioral lessons from someone else(and I would consider teachers a part of a child's 'immediate community' when they spend so much time with them).
We will have to agree to disagree......I can only speak from my experience, but it seems that when "empathy", and "self esteem" became common phrases in our educational system, kids began graduating from HS without the ability to read, or make change in a business environment.....
I think that there is certainly a place in the educational system for children with disabilities....so long as they do not interfere, in any manner, with the progress of the class as a whole. If a teacher is spending an inordinate amount of his/her time attempting to control/coach/lead/compensate several "special needs" children, and the remainder of the class is sitting there waiting for the next set of instructions in order to progress, the class as a whole is being deprived of their due.
I have no problem with classes for special ed kids, but I have a BIG problem with "mainstreaming", in its various permutations....I've seen it in action, and to an extent, the normal kids are getting robbed.....
Instead of empathy in the classroom, I would expect teachers to spend that time on discipline.......
doc
Nice way to discount empathy by throwing it in with something we all know gets a hell of a lot of bad press(and should the way its been used)---self-esteem. Nice! They are not the same...let's settle that first. And it is undeniable in an environment where children spend the majority of their waking hours, that they will be learning other things besides the basics. This was even true hundreds of years ago when children had tutors, were sent off to school, or whose parents taught them. You can not seperate emotional learning from academic learning. The sheer amount of time spent at school makes that impossible. So, while they are there, what are they going to learn becomes the question? I can think of worse things to learn then empathy can't you? Self-esteem is a very self-centered concept, empathy is not.
And while analytics and practicality are important, so to are ethics and ethics aren't learned in a book that teaches one algebra. Ethics are learned by what we see around us, whether at home or outside of it. An integral part of ethics is being able to put yourself in the position of someone else ie empathy. They reflect our values and what do you think those kindergartners learned that day? And again, that is the other point, this is about a KINDERGARTEN class. I will ask you again, in a class full of distractions, how is an autistic child a problem? Have you ever been in a kindergarten class? The autistic child is probably the most reserved and quiet at that point becuase of the communication problems.
As for not interfering...all children are 'inconvenient' in that way, tvdoc. At some point in time every child in a classroom except the most introverted 'disupt' the class in some way. Children are children, they are growing and learning and have behaviors that consistently need to be addressed.It also doesn't kill kids to realize that life is messy. They will have to live with distractions in all situations: they home, their jobs, and just living life. They will adjust and be fine. I'm sorry, but I don't buy your argument. I think it is the grown ups who have a problem with this more then the children do. I also do not believe you really understand how mainstreaming works in some area. The 'regular' teacher, in my disrict anyway, is not alone with all the kids. The special needs children(2 or 3) have an aid who works with them alongside. The regular teacher does not address their special issues and they adjust their day accordingly if it is especially difficult for them(the aid does, not the teacher). I would venture a guess that the teacher spends more time redirecting the normal children then she does any of the special needs kids because of that, so AGAIN, given those circumstances, what other reason when that interruption is taken away do you have for excluding special needs kids from a regularly classroom part of the time? I still don't see a reason except they represent the 'messy' part of life. And you are right, this is an area I part ways with conservatives. I consider many conservatives on this issue cold and totally out of line with their pro-life views(the ones who have them). Also this conservative notion that school should be totally practical and have no emotional dimension or depthy too I consider to be total rubbish and very out of line with ethical principles found even in very practical areas of business(if that's where you are looking forward to).
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We all want what's best for our children. Few parents of special needs children want to force the mainstreaming model if it isn't working. I have seen it both work well and fail miserably.
As far as shuffling kids off to special classrooms because they don't look normal or they walk funny or have difficulty talking ABSENT any disruptive behavioral issues.... well that is just plain wrong. I hope that tvdoc wasn't implying that, I don't believe he was.
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Pardon my typos. I'm attempting to get both my inconvenient child and my normal children all ready for school. :evillaugh:
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Pardon my typos. I'm attempting to get both my inconvenient child and my normal children all ready for school. :evillaugh:
Sure, you just don't know how to spell. :tongue:
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Just my 2 cents here, coming from the experience of being in many classrooms over the years.
It's not neccesarily the "special needs" kids causing the disruptions. I find they usually have the tools/help in place that are needed to keep things flowing in the classroom. It's the regular run of the mill "pain in the ass" kids that are disruptive and cause the problems. They are the ones you constantly have to talk to, redirect, etc...the ones seeking the attention, or who think they can do no wrong.
There are a lot of problems in schools today. Can't blame those problems on the special needs kids, though.
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Empathy is a side lesson, doc, not the primary one, but its still not a bad one to get in situations detached from one's parents and like it or not as long as children will be with someone other then their parents for 7 hours a day they are going to learn about behavioral lessons from someone else(and I would consider teachers a part of a child's 'immediate community' when they spend so much time with them).
We will have to agree to disagree......I can only speak from my experience, but it seems that when "empathy", and "self esteem" became common phrases in our educational system, kids began graduating from HS without the ability to read, or make change in a business environment.....
I think that there is certainly a place in the educational system for children with disabilities....so long as they do not interfere, in any manner, with the progress of the class as a whole. If a teacher is spending an inordinate amount of his/her time attempting to control/coach/lead/compensate several "special needs" children, and the remainder of the class is sitting there waiting for the next set of instructions in order to progress, the class as a whole is being deprived of their due.
I have no problem with classes for special ed kids, but I have a BIG problem with "mainstreaming", in its various permutations....I've seen it in action, and to an extent, the normal kids are getting robbed.....
Instead of empathy in the classroom, I would expect teachers to spend that time on discipline.......
doc
Nice way to discount empathy by throwing it in with something we all know gets a hell of a lot of bad press(and should the way its been used)---self-esteem. Nice! They are not the same...let's settle that first. And it is undeniable in an environment where children spend the majority of their waking hours, that they will be learning other things besides the basics. This was even true hundreds of years ago when children had tutors, were sent off to school, or whose parents taught them. You can not seperate emotional learning from academic learning. The sheer amount of time spent at school makes that impossible. So, while they are there, what are they going to learn becomes the question? I can think of worse things to learn then empathy can't you? Self-esteem is a very self-centered concept, empathy is not.
And while analytics and practicality are important, so to are ethics and ethics aren't learned in a book that teaches one algebra. Ethics are learned by what we see around us, whether at home or outside of it. An integral part of ethics is being able to put yourself in the position of someone else ie empathy. They reflect our values and what do you think those kindergartners learned that day? And again, that is the other point, this is about a KINDERGARTEN class. I will ask you again, in a class full of distractions, how is an autistic child a problem? Have you ever been in a kindergarten class? The autistic child is probably the most reserved and quiet at that point becuase of the communication problems.
As for not interfering...all children are 'inconvenient' in that way, tvdoc. At some point in time every child in a classroom except the most introverted 'disupt' the class in some way. Children are children, they are growing and learning and have behaviors that consistently need to be addressed.It also doesn't kill kids to realize that life is messy. They will have to live with distractions in all situations: they home, their jobs, and just living life. They will adjust and be fine. I'm sorry, but I don't buy your argument. I think it is the grown ups who have a problem with this more then the children do. I also do not believe you really understand how mainstreaming works in some area. The 'regular' teacher, in my disrict anyway, is not alone with all the kids. The special needs children(2 or 3) have an aid who works with them alongside. The regular teacher does not address their special issues and they adjust their day accordingly if it is especially difficult for them(the aid does, not the teacher). I would venture a guess that the teacher spends more time redirecting the normal children then she does any of the special needs kids because of that, so AGAIN, given those circumstances, what other reason when that interruption is taken away do you have for excluding special needs kids from a regularly classroom part of the time? I still don't see a reason except they represent the 'messy' part of life. And you are right, this is an area I part ways with conservatives. I consider many conservatives on this issue cold and totally out of line with their pro-life views(the ones who have them). Also this conservative notion that school should be totally practical and have no emotional dimension or depthy too I consider to be total rubbish and very out of line with ethical principles found even in very practical areas of business(if that's where you are looking forward to).
Granted I don't have a special needs child but I wouldn't generalize that people who are conservative are cold when it comes to this issue. Some people are just jerks and those jerks belong to both political persuasions. But I can't challenge you on this issue because again I don't have a special needs child and even if I did, your experiences are totally anecdotal and impossible to disprove.
I'm sorry that you have run into a bunch of uncaring cold conservatives with regard to your son. If I sound defensive I think I just might be. I think I'm being defensive because two of my friends (who are conservative) work with disabled children and are two of the most caring people I know. One works with blind children and the other is an aid for children with disabilities and just so happens to work at my daughters elementary school.
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Empathy is a side lesson, doc, not the primary one, but its still not a bad one to get in situations detached from one's parents and like it or not as long as children will be with someone other then their parents for 7 hours a day they are going to learn about behavioral lessons from someone else(and I would consider teachers a part of a child's 'immediate community' when they spend so much time with them).
We will have to agree to disagree......I can only speak from my experience, but it seems that when "empathy", and "self esteem" became common phrases in our educational system, kids began graduating from HS without the ability to read, or make change in a business environment.....
I think that there is certainly a place in the educational system for children with disabilities....so long as they do not interfere, in any manner, with the progress of the class as a whole. If a teacher is spending an inordinate amount of his/her time attempting to control/coach/lead/compensate several "special needs" children, and the remainder of the class is sitting there waiting for the next set of instructions in order to progress, the class as a whole is being deprived of their due.
I have no problem with classes for special ed kids, but I have a BIG problem with "mainstreaming", in its various permutations....I've seen it in action, and to an extent, the normal kids are getting robbed.....
Instead of empathy in the classroom, I would expect teachers to spend that time on discipline.......
doc
Nice way to discount empathy by throwing it in with something we all know gets a hell of a lot of bad press(and should the way its been used)---self-esteem. Nice! They are not the same...let's settle that first. And it is undeniable in an environment where children spend the majority of their waking hours, that they will be learning other things besides the basics. This was even true hundreds of years ago when children had tutors, were sent off to school, or whose parents taught them. You can not seperate emotional learning from academic learning. The sheer amount of time spent at school makes that impossible. So, while they are there, what are they going to learn becomes the question? I can think of worse things to learn then empathy can't you? Self-esteem is a very self-centered concept, empathy is not.
And while analytics and practicality are important, so to are ethics and ethics aren't learned in a book that teaches one algebra. Ethics are learned by what we see around us, whether at home or outside of it. An integral part of ethics is being able to put yourself in the position of someone else ie empathy. They reflect our values and what do you think those kindergartners learned that day? And again, that is the other point, this is about a KINDERGARTEN class. I will ask you again, in a class full of distractions, how is an autistic child a problem? Have you ever been in a kindergarten class? The autistic child is probably the most reserved and quiet at that point becuase of the communication problems.
As for not interfering...all children are 'inconvenient' in that way, tvdoc. At some point in time every child in a classroom except the most introverted 'disupt' the class in some way. Children are children, they are growing and learning and have behaviors that consistently need to be addressed.It also doesn't kill kids to realize that life is messy. They will have to live with distractions in all situations: they home, their jobs, and just living life. They will adjust and be fine. I'm sorry, but I don't buy your argument. I think it is the grown ups who have a problem with this more then the children do. I also do not believe you really understand how mainstreaming works in some area. The 'regular' teacher, in my disrict anyway, is not alone with all the kids. The special needs children(2 or 3) have an aid who works with them alongside. The regular teacher does not address their special issues and they adjust their day accordingly if it is especially difficult for them(the aid does, not the teacher). I would venture a guess that the teacher spends more time redirecting the normal children then she does any of the special needs kids because of that, so AGAIN, given those circumstances, what other reason when that interruption is taken away do you have for excluding special needs kids from a regularly classroom part of the time? I still don't see a reason except they represent the 'messy' part of life. And you are right, this is an area I part ways with conservatives. I consider many conservatives on this issue cold and totally out of line with their pro-life views(the ones who have them). Also this conservative notion that school should be totally practical and have no emotional dimension or depthy too I consider to be total rubbish and very out of line with ethical principles found even in very practical areas of business(if that's where you are looking forward to).
Granted I don't have a special needs child but I wouldn't generalize that people who are conservative are cold when it comes to this issue. Some people are just jerks and those jerks belong to both political persuasions. But I can't challenge you on this issue because again I don't have a special needs child and even if I did, your experiences are totally anecdotal and impossible to disprove.
I'm sorry that you have run into a bunch of uncaring cold conservatives with regard to your son. If I sound defensive I think I just might be. I think I'm being defensive because two of my friends (who are conservative) work with disabled children and are two of the most caring people I know. One works with blind children and the other is an aid for children with disabilities and just so happens to work at my daughters elementary school.
You are right, it is anecdotal, but as it is my everyday, it is the experience I live by and make my judgments from. Look, I'm picking on 'my own' here, BEG. Doesn't do me much gladness to do so, but that has been my experience thus far on this journey and it pains me greatly. Everyone here should remember I'm no liberal, so to say this has been my observation is not particularly a pleasant realization to share.
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Granted I don't have a special needs child but I wouldn't generalize that people who are conservative are cold when it comes to this issue. Some people are just jerks and those jerks belong to both political persuasions. But I can't challenge you on this issue because again I don't have a special needs child and even if I did, your experiences are totally anecdotal and impossible to disprove.
I'm sorry that you have run into a bunch of uncaring cold conservatives with regard to your son. If I sound defensive I think I just might be. I think I'm being defensive because two of my friends (who are conservative) work with disabled children and are two of the most caring people I know. One works with blind children and the other is an aid for children with disabilities and just so happens to work at my daughters elementary school.
You are right, it is anecdotal, but as it is my everyday, it is the experience I live by and make my judgments from. Look, I'm picking on 'my own' here, BEG. Doesn't do me much gladness to do so, but that has been my experience thus far on this journey and it pains me greatly. Everyone here should remember I'm no liberal, so to say this has been my observation is not particularly a pleasant realization to share.
I'm not saying your experience isn't valid but you made a generalization of all conservatives. Yes you used a caveat but for some reason I felt you labeled the majority of conservatives cold and uncaring as far as kids with disabilities are concerned. Perhaps I'm not as in tune to the slights that conservatives seem to be hurling towards your child as you because I haven't experienced it personally. That very well could be the case, perhaps for that very reason I shouldn't have said anything. I guess I just got defensive at the thought of my two friends being labeled cold and uncaring even though you used it as a generality.
Just as you are picking on "your own", I too am sticking up for "my own". I hold no ill will towards you or what your reality is. Everyone can have the same experience and come away with a different perspective so I know that what you have experienced is very real to you. I'm not doubting that one bit. I guess what I'm trying to say is that what bothered me was the broad brush you used and decided that "in general" conservatives are cold, uncaring and only care about the unborn, because once they are are here they don't want to be bothered with "inconvenient children". That comment kind of offended me and in a way you have just labeled all of us here....."in general".
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Speaking of tenure...did you catch this in the article I posted?
Roth, a Lutheran, contends he is the victim of a Catholic conspiracy.
“The students who complained about me are Catholic. The administrators who came after me are Catholic. The judges around here are Catholic. … It is part of the Catholic beliefs that they should help one another.â€
He even fired his union-provided attorney – Irving Friedman -- because he thought he might be part of a conspiracy.
“He wasn’t Catholic, but the person with the union who hired him was,†Roth explained.
Since then, he has represented himself in court. Earlier this year, he was sentenced to 60 days in jail for contempt. He was recently released from the Henry County Jail on a second criminal contempt charge.
Mr. Roth was sentenced in August to six months in jail for contempt of court. because he repeatedly violated court rulings to stop filing motions related to his civil lawsuits against the Geneseo school district. He was released early from jail in November.
“Roth mistakenly believes if he gets a ‘non-Catholic’ judge he will start to win motions, the past sanctions will be vacated and his case reinstated. He conveniently overlooks the fact that most of his pleadings and arguments are frivolous,†VandeWiele said in his order.
Another judge, Alan Blackwood, was even more harsh, “His pleadings seek to vilify rather than state facts,†he said. “Instead of being concise, they are rambling gibberish, filed with outlandish and preposterous accusations and conclusions
http://thehiddencostsoftenure.com/stories/?prcss=display&id=266541
Lord, help our schoolcchildren.
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From the blogs and comments I have seen, Wendy Portillo is the most hated person besides Lori Drew, OJ Simpson, Fred Phelps, and John Walker Lindh.
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What a horrible example of a human being.....and the fact that she's around children is even more disturbing. If I were this mom...I would surely approach this "teacher"...and I then may be on trial shortly thereafter.. :chairshot:
If I were on the jury, I wouldn't convict you.
Whatr a waste of oxygen.
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I would like to commend BEG and JTY on their ability to have a disagreement on an issue that
is very personal to them in an agreeable manner.
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I would like to commend BEG and JTY on their ability to have a disagreement on an issue that
is very personal to them in an agreeable manner.
Yeah ok! But ya gotta admit a topless oil wrestling match would have been good too. :-)
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I did not mean to interrupt, ladies. please carry on.
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If I were on the jury, I wouldn't convict you.
Whatr a waste of oxygen.
Wendy Portillo is trash. I read that her brother, who was a New York Firefighter, died on 9/11. Well, to me that is irrelavant.
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If I were on the jury, I wouldn't convict you.
Whatr a waste of oxygen.
Wendy Portillo is trash. I read that her brother, who was a New York Firefighter, died on 9/11. Well, to me that is irrelavant.
that is beyond irrelevant.
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that is beyond irrelevant.
I said the same thing about Lori Drew, if she took in Hurricane Katrina evacuees. I doubt she is that kind of person.
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that is beyond irrelevant.
I said the same thing about Lori Drew, if she took in Hurricane Katrina evacuees. I doubt she is that kind of person.
I suspect that I am not the only one confused here. :-)
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I would like to commend BEG and JTY on their ability to have a disagreement on an issue that
is very personal to them in an agreeable manner.
We are friends, WE. Friends can disagree on issues without tearing each other apart. We both have admitted that our experiences vary, but they do indeed color who we are and our perceptions of things. Having lived in a few different places, I know all to well it could just be where I am at the moment and the makeup of how people behave could be entirely different somewhere else. That leaves room for us both to be right in this instance.
Besides that, I'm more of a 'civilized' debater. I believe BEG is as well. That said, WE it was very sweet of you to say as much. :-*
As for you Toasted...the things that tumble about your mind :evillaugh: :-* :tongue:
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I would like to commend BEG and JTY on their ability to have a disagreement on an issue that
is very personal to them in an agreeable manner.
We are friends, WE. Friends can disagree on issues without tearing each other apart. We both have admitted that our experiences vary, but they do indeed color who we are and our perceptions of things. Having lived in a few different places, I know all to well it could just be where I am at the moment and the makeup of how people behave could be entirely different somewhere else. That leaves room for us both to be right in this instance.
Besides that, I'm more of a 'civilized' debater. I believe BEG is as well. That said, WE it was very sweet of you to say as much. :-*
As for you Toasted...the things that tumble about your mind :evillaugh: :-* :tongue:
Yeah the reason we didn't rip each others hair out is because we were both right. :p
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I would like to commend BEG and JTY on their ability to have a disagreement on an issue that
is very personal to them in an agreeable manner.
We are friends, WE. Friends can disagree on issues without tearing each other apart. We both have admitted that our experiences vary, but they do indeed color who we are and our perceptions of things. Having lived in a few different places, I know all to well it could just be where I am at the moment and the makeup of how people behave could be entirely different somewhere else. That leaves room for us both to be right in this instance.
Besides that, I'm more of a 'civilized' debater. I believe BEG is as well. That said, WE it was very sweet of you to say as much. :-*
As for you Toasted...the things that tumble about your mind :evillaugh: :-* :tongue:
Yeah the reason we didn't rip each others hair out is because we were both right. :p
You want a piece of me? :tongue: :naughty: :-)
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I would like to commend BEG and JTY on their ability to have a disagreement on an issue that
is very personal to them in an agreeable manner.
We are friends, WE. Friends can disagree on issues without tearing each other apart. We both have admitted that our experiences vary, but they do indeed color who we are and our perceptions of things. Having lived in a few different places, I know all to well it could just be where I am at the moment and the makeup of how people behave could be entirely different somewhere else. That leaves room for us both to be right in this instance.
Besides that, I'm more of a 'civilized' debater. I believe BEG is as well. That said, WE it was very sweet of you to say as much. :-*
As for you Toasted...the things that tumble about your mind :evillaugh: :-* :tongue:
Yeah the reason we didn't rip each others hair out is because we were both right. :p
You want a piece of me? :tongue: :naughty: :-)
What piece can I have? :naughty:
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:popcorn: :popcorn:
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:popcorn: :popcorn:
Is that seat over there taken?
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As for you Toasted...the things that tumble about your mind
Well one can dream! :-) It would be one helluva match though :-)
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As for you Toasted...the things that tumble about your mind
Well one can dream! :-) It would be one helluva match though :-)
It would be no fun. BEG and I couldn't hurt one another and it would end up as a pillow fight in our jammies or something. :hyper:
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I would like to commend BEG and JTY on their ability to have a disagreement on an issue that
is very personal to them in an agreeable manner.
We are friends, WE. Friends can disagree on issues without tearing each other apart. We both have admitted that our experiences vary, but they do indeed color who we are and our perceptions of things. Having lived in a few different places, I know all to well it could just be where I am at the moment and the makeup of how people behave could be entirely different somewhere else. That leaves room for us both to be right in this instance.
Besides that, I'm more of a 'civilized' debater. I believe BEG is as well. That said, WE it was very sweet of you to say as much. :-*
As for you Toasted...the things that tumble about your mind :evillaugh: :-* :tongue:
Yeah the reason we didn't rip each others hair out is because we were both right. :p
You want a piece of me? :tongue: :naughty: :-)
What piece can I have? :naughty:
Perhaps the audience should decide. :evillaugh:
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If anyone is interested in learning more about autism, Temple Grandin is autistic and gives a long lecture here on how the brain works in autistic people, behaviors(bad behavior versus stimulating--relevant in this discussion). It is very long, but those who really want to understand before making assumptions of autistic children and how they behave, this might open your eyes to what being autistic is.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bgEAhMEgGOQ
BTW, she is a wonderful speaker and quite interesting to listen to.
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It would be no fun. BEG and I couldn't hurt one another and it would end up as a pillow fight in our jammies or something. :hyper:
And Jello. Lots and lots of Jello. Oh, and Cool Whip. :-)