The Conservative Cave
Current Events => The DUmpster => Topic started by: franksolich on August 18, 2012, 09:58:44 AM
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http://www.democraticunderground.com/11592400
Oh my.
HillWilliam (2,923 posts)
Battling fleas in a very large rural yard
I looked at "Outdoor Life" as a possible destination for this thread and nestling this question with gun- and hiking-threads didn't seem quite the venue.
My partner and I live smack dab in the middle of a rural county between a game reserve and a boy scout reservation. We share our surroundings with deer, raccoons, skunks, wild pigs, the occasional panther, a few coyotes, and about a million rabbits. This year has been the blue-ribbon year for rabbit reproduction and with it, the all-time record for fleas.
Our yard is 2-1/2 acres, surrounded by an electric fence, not so much to keep our six rescued herding dogs in as to keep the creatures that would do them harm out. Of course, such fence is only a mild suggestion to flea-carrying deer or rabbits who pay it no mind at all. With such an area to cover, I've tried everything organic I can think of to battle down the flea problem. So far, neem and volck (which are fair but very short-lived) and DE which is pretty good but difficult to distribute effectively over such large area. I detest the idea of using poisons since those are (1) fairly short-lived and (2) will sink into the water table. I really don't care to drink that kind of residue since my water comes from a well.
I priced predatory nematodes. The price is around $78 for 1/4 acre. At ten quarter-acres, that comes to $780 plus shipping. Yow!!!
There has got to be a better way without pricing me out of eating or poisoning the dogs, the well, or us. Has anyone any suggestions for taking care of such an area? I'm about at my wits' end. My two eldest girls are suffering from skin allergies. We've DE'd the house, treated them daily such as we can, lost endless sleep. It can't go on.
hlthe2b (42,643 posts)
1. I am sorry I don't have answers, but I look forward to seeing what you receive
I thank heavens daily for having returned from the deep South to Colorado where fleas and ticks are far far less a problem-- of course the fleas we do have can carry plague, so there is that.... We have our West Nile Virus-infected mosquitoes for sure, but gratefully far less other arthropod nuisances.
khan8 (4 posts)
2. just an idea
I've used diatomeous earth (DE) inside with success. I could see how it would be difficult to use on acreage. I would worry about my animals inhaling it too. I wonder if you could smother them? Some kind of organic oil product. I doubt if your animals would want to eat it. I don't know how or if it would sink into the water table.
HillWilliam (2,923 posts)
4. My preference is for DE
it works fabulously in the house. I also used it in place of garden lime for my tomatoes this year. It turns out I can only seem to get it in 50# bags, but at $29 a bag, it's certainly cheap enough. A little dab'll do ya for any application. You should see my tomatoes this year -- they're gorgeous, blight-free, strong monsters! I'm sold on DE as a readily absorbable, natural source of calcium. I know quite a few people who use it as a source of calcium. I'm not quite ready to go that far with it; I figure there will be plenty of calcium in the tomatoes I'm bringing in.
Now, on to how to apply to the yard. DE is remarkably fine, like cornstarch. Walking about with a sock to shake out dust like you can do inside just isn't practical in a 2-1/2 acre space. Typical spreaders like for lawn chemistry (shudder) is built for bigazz granulated stuff. Suspending with something like volck and attempting to spray with a typical hose sprayer isn't much better. Hose sprayers aren't made for dispensing that kind of suspension (the innards tend to clog) and it's a real beeyotch trying to drag enough hose to reach every corner of the yard. Even if I do, getting "enough" of anything down to do an effective job is still a challenge.
Yeah, I've kinda stepped in deep here haven't I, heh
I have a notion to contact my Deere dealer tomorrow to see if they have something that might work to keep DE suspended and spread it. There is a tow-behind sprayer my ZTR can tow for about $250. The challenge would be to figure out a rate and how to keep the DE suspended long enough to get it on the ground. The $250 would hurt like hell on the budget I'm on (my partner is disabled, so our money is tight) but that would be a one-time expense. At $30/50# of DE, that comes pretty darn cheap thereafter for effective relief.
That's only one option, I'm sure. I want to think this all through very carefully. With my tight budget and limited time (my job requires a 60-mile trip each way through the week), I kinda have to get this as right as can be done, all with as little harm to the environment or my furkids as possible.
Curmudgeoness (7,909 posts)
3. I don't think that there are any easy solutions.
Nematodes are expensive from what you say they cost, and that is not a quick solution. That is a slow process for them to kill off fleas, so you would not get quick results anyways. And it is possible that a hard winter would kill off many of the fleas, if you get one. Are you living in an area where you might have a winter kill-off? This was a bad year in my area because our winter was too mild to do significant damage to the population of fleas.
At this time of year, I would try to determine if certain areas of your property are more infested than others, and treat these areas as you have been doing. With all the wild animals in your area, you will never be able to get rid of the fleas, but if there are some places where they are worse, that is where I would concentrate, and maybe where you can use nematodes. Over the years, the nematodes would probably spread. And of course, treat the pets with Revolution or Advantage.
HillWilliam (2,923 posts)
7. You're absolutely right
there are no quick or easy solutions. We've tried the completely natural and as much mainstream as we're willing to risk. The latest was BioSpot (similar to Advantage). The effectiveness seems to be about three good days and you can not treat more than once a month. I am absolutely convinced (due to the symptoms) that Advantage killed two of my dogs. Again, after the results of the posts, my vet finally had to agree. My current vet recommended an oral, but after reading about the lethargy, loss of appetite, and a myriad of other symptoms, then the marked increase in mortality in groups receiving it, I had to politely decline that particular option. He and I are still looking for something that will do. Thank heaven I have a vet who really cares and is willing to help research. I try to read everything I can and keep an open mind until I've exhausted everything that looks like science.
It's a lot of work, but if you care, you'll do it, yannow?
We're located in north-central NC, just south of Danville, VA. We've had very mild winters the last two and this winter is slated to be mild and wet as well. It's doubtful we'll have any relief from an extended freeze.
This summer has been by far the worst. With the explosion of rabbits we've had an explosion of fleas. I did break down and use permethrin in the blackberry thickets where rabbits are most prone to hide out (until the dogs have their fun in chasing them to the fenceline). As much as it pained me to use strong chemistry (or anything made by Syngenta, period) my dogs come first. I treated again in seven days (just at the hatch cycle). The effect was almost nil.
So far DE has been the most effective inside. It's just been a bear to figure out some kind of way to spread it effectively outside.
Unless there's something better that I could actually manage. I'm up against a few things: I'm 55, not in the greatest of shape, my job is an hour and a half drive each way, my partner is disabled, so my time is kinda taken up. I'm not complaining at all; it's just how life shaped up. Funny how things turn out not at all the way you envisaged when you were younger (insert wry smile emoticon here).
hedgehog (27,957 posts)
5. Guinea hens?
HillWilliam (2,923 posts)
8. I'd *LOVE* to have guinea hens!!
Did I mention I have herding dogs: Guineas absolutely do not appreciate being herded LOL
Guineas are fabulous flea-eradicators and watchdogs. Completely organic; their eggs are small, but rich and nutritious; they'll do fine on the dinner table if you decide (I'd rather have them as flea-gitters and watchdogs); and I just like them. They're so darned ugly they're cute!
Sadly, guineas and herding dogs just don't mix.
Curmudgeoness (7,909 posts)
9. I love this idea.
I wonder if you could find a way to partition off a part of the property at a time and let the Guinea hens have free rein away from the dogs. A partition that can be moved around. I have seen a hen house on wheels to be easily moved for free range chickens. All you need besides that is a way to fence in the hens' area. I love this on so many levels.
As to flea treatments on your dogs, my vet has changed all animals on flea treatments to Revolution. He said that this product has the best results of all the treatments he has seen, plus it also will treat for other parasites (I believe even heartworm, but since I have a cat, I didn't pay enough attention). I have not researched it, but I am using it for the past 2 years with no ill effects.
HillWilliam (2,923 posts)
12. We've talked this one over at some length because we really want guineas
We found out that guineas can make it over an 8' enclosure. Chickens can't, so partitioning off my garden space would be pretty easy. It's 60'x90', so I can divvy into 3's and let the girls have a third each year and the dogs can't molest them. Putting 10' high fence around the yard part of the property, then divisions within that is just cost-prohibitive. The panther and they coyotes have already gotten all but two of my neighbor's guinea flock that started out at 20.
I didn't realize how big 2-1/2 acres was until I began to mow it LOL. When we took over this place, there was no fence at all and what there was of yard was 3' high in weeds. I took it back with a push mower a section at a time. For the first year, I'd start mowing at one end of the yard as quickly as I got home, push like a maniac until dark, come in, eat supper, shower and flop exhausted into bed. I'd spend all weekend mowing. At the end of the week, I'd have to start all over from jump the next day.
It's bigger than ya think. Shoot, it was bigger than I thought when I bought it. There's six more acres of woods needing attention. It has taken me five years just to get a handle on the immediate grounds. I'll get to the woods when I get a handle on the fleas. I'm not the young strapping studlet I used to think I was heh
Curmudgeoness (7,909 posts)
18. Tell me about the "not as young" part!
I am late 50's and I don't have it in me to do as much as I used to at all. But I still try. Sorry about the panther/coyote problem and suggesting hens---sounds like a recipe for disaster. I like that idea, but I am not sure I could deal with the aftermath of an attack. I wasn't thinking of that, but it sucks.
roody (6,892 posts)
10. Dr. Grommets eucalyptus and
Peppermint soAps kill fleas in a bath. Can they be used for lawns?
NJCher (14,885 posts)
11. some tips from flea battles over a decade
The guinea hens is a good idea. Is there a way you can get some temporary fencing and set it up so the dogs can't get at the hens? I've seen this temporary chain link fencing that construction companies put up. Google Image "temporary chain link fence." You could rotate the fence around and hey, you might not get 100% relief but it might be pretty high, like 90!
I buy fresh eggs every week or two from a lady who has both dogs and chickens. She has a set up that's permanent, but her dogs, one a pit bull, do co-exist nicely with the birds.
The dispersion machine is also a cool idea. I hope you can find something that will do that because I, too, have had great success with DE.
I have been fighting fleas for over a decade now. My environment isn't quite as wild as yours, but pretty comparable. I am surrounded by woods and we have a lot of deer and other small wildlife. I have one cat that goes in and out, but my other two cats go out on enclosed cat walks, thus they can still get fleas. I used those flea prevention things like you mention and haven't had a problem with my cats having any reaction. I only use it in the summer, also, even though the cats go out all year.
For something like three or four years straight, I tried to get the nematodes going but after all that expense and effort, I don't notice anything. My neighbors did it, too. Maybe the nematodes are out there doing something, but I've never seen any results from it. It's a lot of work and effort, so this is a very "iffy" possibility.
There's a product called "Mosquito Barrier" that I learned about from a fellow DU-er. It is also effective for fleas, and it is a natural product. It is based on garlic. I think you should check this out. It is not terribly expensive and could really work for you.
Now I have some advice for any bites. Get the generic equivalent of the Benadryl gel and a few boxes of those circular Curad bandages. As soon as someone gets a bite, put the gel on it. Let it dry, and then put on a Curad circular bandage. This keeps the person bitten from scratching the bite. It works so well in helping get over bites faster. Inexpensive, too!
Around here, I don't dare go outside without a mosquito repellent, which of course, also repels fleas. I minimize the amount I need to put on by wearing long trousers, thus leaving only my arms for the repellent.
Most of the time I can get away with this Avon product, but when it's the height of the summer, l have to use that Deep Woods stuff.
HillWilliam (2,923 posts)
13. We love our girls and are so lucky to have them
Herders are so darn smart!! They question every bit of training so they make you think your rationale and methods through very carefully. We use all-positive, no-aversive methods. We've had a couple of real damaged cases to work with. Encouragement and emotional support are key.
The down-side is that herders were derived from dogs having a strong prey-drive. That prey drive has been redirected to gather rather than to slay, though I will admit the occasional bunny meets misfortune. They are still dogs, after all. (They also get regular wormer!)
That brings me to the guineas. Our kids' job (since we don't have sheep) is to protect the gardens (part of our "butter and egg" money and part of how we're able to eat at all) by running bunnies and squirrels away. They're generally not inclined to touch, just run them. So far, a couple of bunnies and one of the neighbor's guineas met with misfortune. I had to go apologize about the guinea.
Since guineas can make an 8' fence (chickens can be contained in 6) keeping hyper herders and independent-minded guineas who will go wherever they please separated no matter how I slice it seems to be cost prohibitive.
You've got me thinking though. I wonder if it would be possible to make a "guinea tractor" kinda like a chicken tractor. If it's not too heavy, or I could put it on workable wheels, make it roomy enough to make having enough guineas worthwhile, maybe I could pull it around with the lawn tractor.
Think such a thing could work?
beac (8,007 posts)
16. I think I am the "fellow DUer" who recommended Mosquito Barrier.
I've found it to be a miracle repellent for all kinds of pestiferous beasties. It's super-concentrated, so you mix about one capful into a standard spray bottle of water. One bottle lasts forever and will keep in the fridge for over a year.
I've also heard of giving garlic to dogs to repel fleas, though you should of course check w/your vet before adding anything to their diet.
HillWilliam (2,923 posts)
17. Powdered garlic on their food
Really does help keep mosquitoes and biting flies/gnats off them. Our vet advised against fresh garlic (I knew that anyway), but they seem to enjoy the taste on kibbles. I have tried garlic drops designed for the water bowl. They were horrified I'd do such a thing and refused to touch it. I repented of that quickly.
That said, dragging 200' of hose to attempt to cover an entire 2-1/2 acres just isn't practical. For me, it's barely physically possible. I'll admit the $84/five acres/one whole season price tag is appealing. That's about the least expensive option of any of them. It'd be worth it to hire a kid to come help me drag hoses around for a day. I guess the real question is finding a truly effective spraying mechanism that gets "enough" down, and enough to persist as advertised. This is definitely in the hopper to investigate further.
I really wanted guinesfowl to work. I think they're just so cool. The noise doesn't bother me and they're the best flea and tick getters ever. Between my hyper kids wanting to herd something and the number of predators we've got around here, from what I'm turning up in research it's just not worth it after all.
Viva_La_Revolution (25,796 posts)
14. four o'clocks repel fleas and these (some may be toxic to pets, do your homework)
Catnip – Also repels cockroaches. A perennial herb. Has an ability to attract domestic North American cats, causing the feline to hallucinate.
Lavender – Also repels mosquitoes and moths. Non-toxic to pets.
Eucalyptus – A flowering tree of the myrtle family.
Pennyroyal – Also known as Fleabane due to its use as a flea repellent for centuries. Was the single most used herb to fight the plague.
Rosemary – Also repels mosquitoes and gnats.
Peppermint – A hybrid mint, crossed with the watermint and spearmint.
Garlic – Also said to repel rabbits and moles.
Citronella – Also repels mosquitoes. Similar to Lemmongrass, which is a relation.
Camomile – Annual herb of the daisy family.
Sage – A dense, upright bush about 2 to 3 feet in height. It is the largest plant in the mint family.
Rue – Widely used in butterfly gardens as a larval plant, this strongly scented evergreen subshrub’s oil can leave blisters on the skin in hot weather.
Lemmongrass – Lemon scented. Also repels mosquitoes.
Fleawort – A European species with yellow daisy-like flowers. Its seeds are used for medical purposes.
Wormwood – An attractive silvery foliage. Its leaves have been used in medicines and such beverages as adsinthe.
Sweet Bay – A large aromatic evergreen shrub. Its leaves have been used as the main flavor ingredient in American-style spaghetti sauce.
Tansy – A flowering plant with finely divided compound leaves and yellow, button-like flowers.
Whoa.
No wonder franksolich doesn't have fleas, even though I live in something comparable with the bilious primitive.
There's catnip growing all over the place here on these several acres; on the William Rivers Pitt, a couple of big patches in the "gardens," sporadically in the two meadows, around the base of the house, and in the grove of walnut trees.
When I first moved here, I suspected they were weeds, and wondered how to get rid of them. But there was so much of it I gave up wondering, because no way was I ever going to get rid of them. So I let them be.
HillWilliam (2,923 posts)
15. I'm having a little luck getting spearmint started
Lemonbalm (another mint family member) seems to be doing well. The spearmint hasn't really taken off yet, but I've got one good patch.
I had wonderful luck with four o'clocks one year and one year only. After that I couldn't get them to come up. Man, those are a lovely flower and they smell SO WONDERFUL. They attract pollenators and hummers but they are positively lethal to japanese beetles who can't seem to resist them. I've never seen so many dead japanese beetles in all my life as under the one beautiful (70-foot!) row of four o'clocks I managed to get going. After that, they never would come up again.
The ground I'm now calling my yard (a bit tongue in cheek, I suppose) had been a tobacco field for some 250 years. When it became a plot for a house about 20 years ago, the idiots that attempted to smooth it simply pushed the topsoil off and shoved most of it down the hill. What was left is lumpy, bumpy, ill-graded, not leveled in any way, and a definite PITA to get anything to grow -- including grass. It has taken five years to establish something like a yard from native grasses. Something besides weeds, that is.
Trying to do this something like organically has been quite a bit more of a challenge. There are plenty of horse farms and dairy barns around, but a couple of years ago the motor in my pickup blew, so hauling poop to shore up the fertility of the garden hasn't been an option. (Poop is free if you haul it.) My husbear would wring my neck I'm sure if I even joked about bringing cowpoop home in the family car
We're noodling over the idea of a guinea tractor. That might could work. Guineapoo is as good a fertilizer as chickenpoo and would do my poor yard and endless amount of good. Along with eradicating fleas, it sounds like a win/win.
I need to read everything I can about guineas, chicken tractors, etc alongside this thread.
We priced fleabane seed. That sounds like another option. Not cheap but a durnsight cheaper than treating after the fact. I like.
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Why do they have to make such a drama of everything?
If you can't afford to go your fabulous "green" route just buy some insecticide and shut up.
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Just plant garlic here and there.
Use the plants and herbs they mentioned.
Sheesh.
Once again, the "smartest people in the world universe" can't just google things like this.
Would have taken me about 10 seconds to find it.
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I think they are just bragging about their "estate".
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Well, now I know why Coach's cats seem so "mellow", all the time.
*Like, Meooowwww, dude.*
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10 easy solutions....
1- shoot the dogs
2- rub their fur down with a small amount of burnt motor oil on a rag.
3- leave the dogs outside.
4- stop sleeping with the dogs, you're giving them fleas.
5- add a flea and tick collar to your kinky sexy leather ensemble.
6- move.
7- use the hammer and sickle approach. Hey, it worked for Stalin.
8- shave the dogs.
9- trade the dogs in for pet snakes.
10- shoot the dogs.
One or more of the above should do the trick*.
*I shouldn't have said "trick".
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I think they are just bragging about their "estate".
Bingo.
Our yard is 2-1/2 acres
Six "rescued" mongrels running in and out of the hut...
No mowing, waist high weeds....
A guaranteed flea infestation, on top of the usual DUmmy crab lice.
Here in red state hell, chiggers are far worse and far more common than fleas.
"Panthers" in North Carolina are outnumbered only by the growing sasquatch population.
The usual stew of DUmpmonkey bullshit.
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When you lie down with dogs...
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I have a cat. He's an indoor cat. He's 14. He's been out 3 times in those 14 years. We get fleas every flea season. No bunnies, no panthers, no possum's no wildlife at all, no massive acreage and we still get fleas. Fleas happen because there's something to feed on. Peoples clothes get hitch hikers and haul them in and out and all around.
Get some Advantage DUmmie, use it for a couple of months to break the breeding cycle. Take responsibility for owning your animals and quit the incessant blaming of minor stupid daily shit on everything but reality.
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Oh for crying out loud!!!! Didn't read the whole dummy thread... didn't read a quarter of it to be honest... but if you want to get rid of fleas do this: take the dog to the vet and get the stuff you put on the nape of their neck. Gets some sevin and throw it around your yard... and in your carpet for a couple of days if the fleas are inside, then vacuum. Do it again in a week and you will be flea free.
What morons. They can't even take care of a simple flea problem and they want to tell me how to run my life? :loser: