The Conservative Cave
Current Events => The DUmpster => Topic started by: Freeper on June 02, 2012, 10:32:09 AM
-
cthulu2016 (2,507 posts)
Conservatives actually believe this
Last edited Sat Jun 2, 2012, 05:29 AM USA/ET - Edit history (7)
In the ongoing refutation of Keynes in favor of supply-side economics the conservatives have one big stumbling block. No matter how you slice it, World War II appears to have ended the Great Depression in America. And no matter how you slice it, government spending during WWII was massive.
But it turns out they have a theory about that. I see it in comments sections a lot. I think this is a fair statement of it:
In 1939 unemployment was over 20%. During World War II unemployment dropped to 2%. If Keynes was right this drop in unemployment caused by government spending should have created massive demand, but statistics show that Production of Consumer Goods and Consumer Consumption was up only slightly. It was only when FDR died that Truman's pro-business policies led to a surge in Domestic Consumption.
Okay, let's think about this. Can anyone think of a reason why domestic production of consumer goods increased only slightly during WWII?
Perhaps because the entire freaking industrial capacity of the nation was diverted to making things for the war. It's amazing that production of consumer goods increased at all! I would have guessed it declined. Almost every factory stopped making whatever it was making and switched to making bullets, bandages, planes, uniforms, etc..
And knowing that, can anyone think of a reason why domestic consumption of consumer goods increased only slightly during WWII? Well... because you cannot buy things that are not being manufactured. And because everything was rationed. And because a few million men drawing government paychecks were not in the United States to spend them. Here's mind-bender...even though the depression was over sales of automobile tires actually declined. WooooOOOoo. Spooky. Tires were rationed, of course. People drove on tires with patches on patches on patches. I'll bet civilian miles driven dropped sharply too, since gasoline was rationed. Women making good money for the first time in their lives working in defense plants still had to draw lines on the back of their legs with a pen to simulate seamed stockings because all nylon went to parachutes. Plus, all manner of domestic consumption was considered unpatriotic.
But what I wanted to get to is the third leg of the argument...
"Production and consumption of consumer goods did not pick up until FDR died and Truman's pro-business policies were implemented."
Is there any reason, aside from pro-business policies, that the production of consumer goods might have picked up under Truman?
THE FREAKING WAR ENDED. General Motors stopped making tanks and went back to making shiny new cars for people to buy. Nylon stockings became available. Aluminum cookware became available. Copper, which was used in all electrical devices, all appliances, all radios, etc. became available for use in products other than war machines. (Copper was so needed for the war that we made pennies out of steel one of the years.)
I swear, these folks are not even trying.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/1002756318
I could of sworn that the sooper genius policies of FDR expanding government control and social programs was what saved the country. Now all of a sudden the DUmmies think it was the war effort. Their beliefs change as much as the weather in Texas.
Yes the war effort ended the depression, however there was a constitutional reason for all the government spending, you know the part about providing a national defense. The evil defense contractors, (which was pretty much every corporation at the time), made out like bandits not only from the war, but after the war when everyone came home. Why are you not appalled at the profits they made?
Government spending for the sake of spending and handing out freebies will not strengthen the economy. Why should half of us work and have our money stripped from us so people that are "owed" can sit on their ass all day long and bitch about how much the US sucks. If you think about it if we just gutted all the safety net programs and just sent everyone a check then at least all the money would be back into the economy, instead we have stupid programs where the government takes $60 (numbers are made up for an example) and hands a poor person a $20, then pats themselves on the back for caring so much as they keep the $40.
Confusious (6,588 posts)
3. No, they're trying
Twisting their brains into pretzels to justify their failed theories, and to ignore the obvious, takes a lot of work.
Want to talk about twisting one's brain like a pretzel? Defend abortion, the mental gymnastics you have to go through is staggering.
Also our "failed" theories actually lowered unemployment in the 1980s. Back when recovery came with jobs. Now we have jobless recoveries and shell games with unemployment numbers that the media is more than happy to provide cover for. That is pretzel logic.
dinopipie (26 posts)
6. The stupid it burns!
One cannot nor will be able to reason or compromise with 'people' that stupid, unfortunately that is the GOP base today.
Conservatives, Teahadasts and their allies we can't live with em any longer and we can't shoot em so what is the solution?
Damn right you can't shoot us, if you tried we would shove your own gun up your ass and pull the trigger. That way we don't get our guns messy.
Scuba (17,414 posts)
11. Critical thinking is not a Republican value.
Common sense is a republican value.
TahitiNut (70,620 posts)
12. There is no learning disability so severe
... as the outright REFUSAL to learn from the facts that are plain for all to see. It staggers all reason that these people are so profoundly, abjectly, and extremely STUPID that they somehow see some insane "virtue" in adhering to myths and falsehoods so blatantly corrupt.
I have a "theory." Prions. The "Mad GOP" analog to "Mad Cow." It's gotta be in their water.
You are the ones ignoring the fact that the economy is still in the crapper, meanwhile you sooper geniuses buy the bull shit being fed by the dems at how wonderful things are. :banghead:
Wounded Bear (699 posts)
13. Never underestimate their ability to cherry pick data....
and use selective memory.
Could it be that unemployment dropped to 2% because nearly 10 million people were employed by the armed forces?
Nahhhhh! Couldn't be!
And when in the hell did Truman become a conservative hero?
Considering 0bama is gutting the military do you really want to say that? :-)
-
It looks to me like he is trying to justify the governments massive spending. WWII did end the war. FDR's policies made things worse. FDR is also one of the worst Presidents in history. He is the father of American Socialism, plain and simple. Everything he started that was supposed to be temporary turned out to be permanent, the moron. He was also a racist, but yet he is one of the most loved Dems of all time.
-
The Dummie actually made a positive argument for spending on the Military industrial Complex.
Consumer spending sky rocketed after WWII because after the depression and WWII most folks had nothing but bare essentials and had a few bucks to spend.
The end of WWII also marked the beginning of Economic Globalization.
-
Their defense of Keynesian economics is always fun to observe. Of the books Keynes wrote, he contradicts himself much of the time. I think there's only 2 books of his that his supporters even use in their arguments in favor of his big gov't oversight of the economy (The General Theory of Employment, Interest and Money and A Tract on Monetary Reform).
Keynes is inferior to Friedman's monetary policy overall.
.
-
Unmentioned in the idiot's thesis is the fact that massive Keynesian government social spending from 1931 until the preparation for WWII (Beginning with the 1936 Naval Construction Law, driven by expiration of the Washington Naval Treaty and its non-renewal by Japan) UTTERLY FAILED to end the Depression, and many economists now believe it suppressed an early recovery and both prolonged and deepened the Depression.
-
I have to agree that when you massively borrow to destroy the rest of the world's manufacturing capability prosperity will come in the following years. Of course the cost in human life and overall economic devastation lowers the world's balance sheet.
These super geniuses probably think that opening the refrigerator door makes the kitchen colder.
-
I have to agree that when you massively borrow to destroy the rest of the world's manufacturing capability prosperity will come in the following years. Of course the cost in human life and overall economic devastation lowers the world's balance sheet.
These super geniuses probably think that opening the refrigerator door makes the kitchen colder.
And a bird in a very light sealed cage can fly it's way to freedom.
-
Then why are they anti-military spending?
-
Of course, idiots like these dump monkeys don't realize that, even though the market crash of '29 was rather large, that the economic cycle would have straightened itself out. What Hoover tried, and the FDR compounded with federal spending "stimuli" up the yin yang essentially cemented the depression, then coupled with a socialist takeover which, thankfully, never fully materialized because the bulwark of the nation is, and always has been, conservative.
However, with the extended, government-caused depression, international business, which in the 20's had been greatly expanding, particuarly with continental Europe and Japan / Philipines, was suddenly curtailed. Because economic conditions were cut off, these countries accelerated their war mongering stances, which most probably was a good reason that WW2 started in the first place. Hitler used the bad economy as a springboard for spreading discontent and, subsquently, Arianism, justifying taking over Europe, while Japan felt they had carte blanche to rumble over Asia.
With a non-socialist foray in the 30's, we may not have prevented WW2 (other scenarios have Communism becoming much bigger), but maybe not. The point is that a wartime economy is not an economy that is normal, but is bent toward one thing: defense, not expansion of individual liberties. And that is key.
-
“The inherent vice of capitalism is the unequal sharing of blessings; the inherent virtue of socialism is the equal sharing of miseries.†~ Winston Churchill
You will NOT force your misery on me DUmmies. I refuse!
-
In 1939 unemployment was over 20%. During World War II unemployment dropped to 2%. If Keynes was right this drop in unemployment caused by government spending should have created massive demand, but statistics show that Production of Consumer Goods and Consumer Consumption was up only slightly. It was only when FDR died that Truman's pro-business policies led to a surge in Domestic Consumption.
God......you f:censored: :censored:ing idiots (or Krugman, same difference).
It's was called rationing, you doorknobs......
-
It looks to me like he is trying to justify the governments massive spending. WWII did end the war. FDR's policies made things worse. FDR is also one of the worst Presidents in history. He is the father of American Socialism, plain and simple. Everything he started that was supposed to be temporary turned out to be permanent, the moron. He was also a racist, but yet he is one of the most loved Dems of all time.
While he was bad.I think Woodrow Wilson was worse.
-
While he was bad.I think Woodrow Wilson was worse.
Yes, Woodrow Wilson is up there in stupidity as well.
-
Yes, Woodrow Wilson is up there in stupidity EVIL as well.
Fixt 'er for ya, bro.
-
Fixt 'er for ya, bro.
Good fix, Hi5 for ya.
-
Japan has been on a Keynesian binge for the last 20+ years. They are approaching a national debt of 250% of GDP, massive unemployment & continued stagnation. We at least have some natural resources to exploit to pull ourselves out of the death spiral.
-
Japan has been on a Keynesian binge for the last 20+ years. They are approaching a national debt of 250% of GDP, massive unemployment & continued stagnation. We at least have some natural resources to exploit to pull ourselves out of the death spiral.
Well sure but it would have been worse if the Japs hadn't spent themselves into oblivion![/leftist]
-
Japan has been on a Keynesian binge for the last 20+ years. They are approaching a national debt of 250% of GDP, massive unemployment & continued stagnation. We at least have some natural resources to exploit to pull ourselves out of the death spiral.
Only if the government will let us get to them.
-
Only if the government will let us get to them.
Hopefully, that is what we are working on this year.
-
Wasn't Europe in a depression at the same time but recover from it much earlier because they kept the government from sucking all the money out of the market? They didn't have massive government programs that put the same money back in the system that it took out and increase the national debt by huge amounts, if I recall.
Cindie
-
Wasn't Europe in a depression at the same time but recover from it much earlier because they kept the government from sucking all the money out of the market? They didn't have massive government programs that put the same money back in the system that it took out and increase the national debt by huge amounts, if I recall.
Cindie
The primary difference was the Japs went nuts printing money. I think the Euros are actually more Socialistic than our little yellow buddies but, they showed a little more restraint with the printing presses.
-
The primary difference was the Japs went nuts printing money. I think the Euros are actually more Socialistic than our little yellow buddies but, they showed a little more restraint with the printing presses.
IIRC, Merkel warned Obama about over spending. She was right. The countries in Europe that showed restraint have fared much better than the US and other socialist spendthrifts.
-
Wasn't Europe in a depression at the same time but recover from it much earlier because they kept the government from sucking all the money out of the market? They didn't have massive government programs that put the same money back in the system that it took out and increase the national debt by huge amounts, if I recall.
Cindie
Yes, and even more telling, the depression of 1921 cut even deeper into the economy than the 1929 depression (AKA the "Great Depression") did. And yet, we got out of that one in about 18 months, while the "Great Depression" lingered for over a decade in America.
In 1920:
- The value of goods dropped 50%.
- Housing values dropped by 18%
- Wholesale prices made the largest single year drop in our nation's history, by 36.8%
- Unemployment went almost immediately to 11.8%
- GNP dropped 24% (for some perspective, in 2008, GDP dropped by 0.4% and by 2.9% in 2009)
We got out of that quickly, by doing damned near the exact opposite of what we did in 1929 - 1932:
"Silent" Calvin Coolidge (the president who's example Ronald Reagan looked to):
- lowered top marginal tax rate from 77% to 25%
- cut actual government spending by 50%