The Conservative Cave
Current Events => The DUmpster => Topic started by: franksolich on April 26, 2012, 06:41:43 PM
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http://www.democraticunderground.com/1002613790
Oh my.
The Northerner (4,557 posts) Profile Journal Send DU Mail Ignore
ACLU, others help Marine who criticized Obama fight dismissal
A Marine sergeant who criticized President Obama on Facebook is fighting to keep his position after he was told on Wednesday that he is being dismissed from the service with an other-than-honorable discharge.
Lawyers from the American Civil Liberties Union and the conservative U.S. Justice Foundation said Gary Stein's 1st Amendment rights were being violated by the Marine Corps.
"I don't believe Sgt. Stein did anything other than engage in political speech," said the ACLU's David Loy. "Since the days of Valley Forge, I seriously doubt that there haven't been members of the armed forces who haven't complained about their government."
Gary Kreep of the U.S. Justice Foundation said he believes Stein was targeted by the Obama administration.
Read more: http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/lanow/2012/04/aclu-others-defending-marine-who-criticized-obama.html5
Politicalboi (6,220 posts) Profile Journal Send DU Mail Ignore
2. I think the ACLU is wrong here
It's not free speech when you work for the military. He was actually putting the Presidents life in danger with his bullshit birther claim. Someone is more apt to believe a soldier about the President than a civilian.
Uncle Joe (22,856 posts) Profile Journal Send DU Mail Ignore
3. As a former Marine, this is one of the rare cases in which I disagree with the ACLU.
Stein's behavior was most unbecoming of a Marine, he directly challenged the chain of command during war time and he did it in a most public venue where it could do the most damage.
By referring to the Commander in Chief as the "enemy," Stein's actions could only damage troop moral and any sense of Esprit de Corps.
"On Facebook postings, Stein had called Obama a coward and an enemy, vowed not to salute him, declared he would not follow orders from Obama that he considered illegal, and urged the president's electoral defeat."
truebrit71 (15,373 posts) Profile Journal Send DU Mail Ignore
4. Yeah, sorry but the ACLU is wrong on this one...
He was a marine that bad-mouthed the Commander-in-chief, and said he would refuse a direct order. Under the Military Laws he committed a crime. Game over.
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Tierra_y_Libertad (33,574 posts) Profile Journal Send DU Mail Ignore
5. Hell, they should have heard what I had to say about LBJ when I was in.
I'm a member of the ACLU and an ex-marine. I'm with the ACLU on this one.
Puzzledtraveller (395 posts) Profile Journal Send DU Mail Ignore
7. Ex-marine?
Tierra_y_Libertad (33,574 posts) Profile Journal Send DU Mail Ignore
11. Ex. As in "no longer", "not a lifer", "eat the apple and **** the corps".
1961-1965
You?
Oasis_ (236 posts) Profile Journal Send DU Mail Ignore
18. I've never heard a former marine refer to themselves as "ex"
11 Bravo (13,381 posts) Profile Journal Send DU Mail Ignore
20. Nor have I, and I have been around the military all of my life.
I have one marine uncle, a marine cousin, and a marine nephew-in-law (he's married to my niece). None of them are still in the service, but rest assured, none of them are "ex"-marines.
Tierra_y_Libertad (33,574 posts) Profile Journal Send DU Mail Ignore
29. Does that make me a celebrity?
11 Bravo (13,381 posts) Profile Journal Send DU Mail Ignore
32. Nah, you're just an outlier. You want to be a celebrity "ex"-marine? Think ...
Lee Oswald. That boy is a FAMOUS president disliker!
on edit: The UCMJ is unambiguous. Please don't pretend that this is a "free speech" issue. You took the same oath that I did. If you had your fingers crossed, it doesn't matter.
Tierra_y_Libertad (33,574 posts) Profile Journal Send DU Mail Ignore
37. And, you, of course, never criticized your superiors?
Barracks have changed a lot since I was in if that's the case.
The UCMJ should be changed to allow those ordered by their commander to kill and die to allow for criticism of the bosses.
11 Bravo (13,381 posts) Profile Journal Send DU Mail Ignore
39. My C-in-C was Nixon, and in the field, I said a LOT of shit, but ...
if Facebook had existed in 1970, I would NOT have gone on-line and called him "a coward" or "the enemy". Had I done so I would have been rightly cashiered.
If you can't see the difference, then you took an oath which you clearly did not comprehend.
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nadinbrzezinski (104,330 posts) Profile Journal Send DU Mail Ignore
26. Did you go to your local paper and make sure civilians knew about this?
That is the difference. We all bitch of the chain, we all do... it's part of it. And everybody knows it...
But you were told NOT to do this the way this sergeant did.
I know you know about good order and discipline... and the ACLU is wrong on this. He is lucky he is not thrown out, after a reduction in rank and some time in the brig.
Tierra_y_Libertad (33,574 posts) Profile Journal Send DU Mail Ignore
30. Screw "good order and discipline". That's what the bosses want.
I disagreed with the clamps put on us when we were in but wasn't stupid enough to go looking for trouble. And, I certainly disagree with what the idiot has to say but, the rules governing what GI's can say about their commanders, especially the ones that can put them in harms way and/or kill people they don't know, have nothing against, and might even like, are just plain wrong.
nadinbrzezinski (104,330 posts) Profile Journal Send DU Mail Ignore
33. You may say screw it
but it has it's role. I guarantee you it kept my kids alive.
And no, it was not trying to kill and be killed, but they were at times the ones being hunted.
So yes it has a role.
You were a draftee. This sergeant was not. I understand draftees getting angrier about it by the way.
This is also a crucial difference.
IMHO, and I do not care if the CiC is Obama, Bush or the left handed widget, he deserved a full court martial, a year in the brig and reduction to E-1 and a dishonorable.
Tierra_y_Libertad (33,574 posts) Profile Journal Send DU Mail Ignore
36. I wasn't a draftee. Joining up didn't make me a slave or hired killer.
He "deserves a court martial". How about the bosses who order the GI's to kill innocents on command? How about the politicians who make the wars possible. Are they to be above criticism from the poor sods who they command to commit atrocities?
nadinbrzezinski (104,330 posts) Profile Journal Send DU Mail Ignore
38. Read what he did
He did NOT complaint of HIS DIRECT CHAIN giving him a direct order that was ilegal. For god sakes, YOU KNOW THE UCMJ. If you receive such an order you are not just supposed to disobey it, but you SHOULD DISOBEY IT.
You are not talking to somebody who does not know this. For the record I DISOBEYED a direct and very ilegal order, so try that one with somebody who is clueless. In time of war I COULD HAVE FACED a wall and a firing squad.
What he did was make a POLITICAL statement, which in no military I know off is kosher or allowed. You do understand the difference, though from your posts, I am no longer sure if you do, or you pretend not to.
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stevenleser (8,980 posts) Profile Journal Send DU Mail Ignore
14. Everyone who enlists or commissions into the military knows about this and other restrictions
on your civil rights. You do not have the right to be wherever you want to be, you have to be on duty at your station per the orders of your chain of command. You cannot disobey lawful orders, you cannot speak out publicly against anyone in your chain of command.
This is explained before you take the oath, and it is explained during your initial training.
We have an all volunteer force. He could have gotten out long before this if he objected to the restrictions.
cherokeeprogressive (12,286 posts) Profile Journal Send DU Mail Ignore
19. Do you say the same thing about Lt. Dan Choi?
Is it at all possible that he was aware of the Don't Ask, Don't Tell policy before coming out on the Rachel Maddow Show?
11 Bravo (13,381 posts) Profile Journal Send DU Mail Ignore
22. I said the exact same thing about Dan Choi.
He knew the deal, and he broke the rules. That's why I consider him to be a ****ing hero! Civil disobedience, rightly or wrongly, has consequences. Otherwise it would remain entirely the purview of keyboard commandos.
nadinbrzezinski (104,330 posts) Profile Journal Send DU Mail Ignore
24. Yes, Lt. Dan Choi broke regs
why they threw him out of the service. The ACLU did not take the case either.
The ACLU should NOT take this case either.
guitar man (15,888 posts) Profile Journal Send DU Mail Ignore
15. I disagree with the ACLU
There's an old saying in the military "we're here to defend democracy, not to practice it". Practicing politics in uniform is and to my knowledge always has been against regulations.
white_wolf (4,123 posts) Profile Journal Send DU Mail Ignore
21. There is a problem with this analogy.
His employer is part of the government, so they are bound by the 1st Amendment. At least most government organizations are bound, the military may very well be different. However, by your analogy a member of the IRS wouldn't be allowed to criticize the President which is simply not true. As for this case, I tend to be an absolutist when it comes to civil liberties, but the Supreme Court has never endorsed that view, though several Justices have.
nadinbrzezinski (104,330 posts) Profile Journal Send DU Mail Ignore
23. Not the military and the UCMJ
which obviously he slept through in BASIC, is quite clear about this.
Of course I do no
I don't expect the ACLU to understand this... and since very few people serve any longer, I don't expect MOST civilians to get this either.
He is lucky he is not facing some time in the brig... quite frankly, and a reduction in rank.
sendero (23,599 posts) Profile Journal Send DU Mail Ignore
27. I believe in the ACLU..
... but I disagree with them on this point.
And to go out on a bit of a limb, they are going to accomplish NOTHING here because these rules are absolutely necessary and the jackass was warned to cut it out and he didn't.
He's a dipshit and he got what was coming to him. I only hope he doesn't parlay it into some kind of job, putting up drywall would seem to be about his speed.
MrScorpio (50,046 posts) Profile Journal Send DU Mail Ignore
35. His jobs was to protect free speech, not practice it
When you're in uniform, you have to adhere to good order and discipline.
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nadinbrzezinski
You are not talking to somebody who does not know this. For the record I DISOBEYED a direct and very ilegal order, so try that one with somebody who is clueless. In time of war I COULD HAVE FACED a wall and a firing squad.
I think a better story would have been that she did face a firing squad but was able to bend the bullets away from her body with her superior mind.
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For the record I DISOBEYED a direct and very ilegal order
Huh!
So nadin was in the military?!? How did I miss that?
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nadinbrzezinski (104,330 posts) Profile Journal Send DU Mail Ignore
33. You may say screw it
but it has it's role. I guarantee you it kept my kids alive.
And no, it was not trying to kill and be killed, but they were at times the ones being hunted.
So yes it has a role.
You were a draftee. This sergeant was not. I understand draftees getting angrier about it by the way.
This is also a crucial difference.
IMHO, and I do not care if the CiC is Obama, Bush or the left handed widget, he deserved a full court martial, a year in the brig and reduction to E-1 and a dishonorable.
Is nadin claiming that she has children, or is she trying to make it appear as if she was the Officer/Senior Enlisted in charge of actual troops?
Maybe she's talking about her conures, that she often refers to as her children, or maybe she is referring to the guy who drove the ambulance that she swept out at the end of shift down in TJ back in the '80s.
It's always a mystery with nadin. Mostly because it is all bullshit.
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Wow, I would never have thought the ACLU would do something like this. And here I thought they were a far left organization.
Someone needs to shut that fat ****in bitch nadin up. She is nothing but an absolute tool.
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Huh!
So nadin was in the military?!? How did I miss that?
Yep. The crazy bald dwarf served in the Army of Oz, Lollipop Guild Division.
Her military service has been confined to the maneuvers of her little painted toy soldiers in that fantasy game she plays.
Not even the mexican army will take a four-foot-tall, mentally ill dwarf.
She no more served than that fake soldier numbersBoo.
This military service thing is one of her more disturbing hallucinations.
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nadinbrzezinski (104,330 posts) Profile Journal Send DU Mail Ignore
38. Read what he did
He did NOT complaint of HIS DIRECT CHAIN giving him a direct order that was ilegal. For god sakes, YOU KNOW THE UCMJ. If you receive such an order you are not just supposed to disobey it, but you SHOULD DISOBEY IT.
You are not talking to somebody who does not know this. For the record I DISOBEYED a direct and very ilegal order, so try that one with somebody who is clueless. In time of war I COULD HAVE FACED a wall and a firing squad.
What he did was make a POLITICAL statement, which in no military I know off is kosher or allowed. You do understand the difference, though from your posts, I am no longer sure if you do, or you pretend not to.
Well there you have it, she is claiming to have been an active duty veteran of the US Military. I think this is new info for her resume.
I am a 22 year USMC retiree, I still have some contacts, but they are all unaware of a super-secret dwarf squad existing within DOD.
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nadinbrzezinski
23. Not the military and the UCMJ
which obviously he slept through in BASIC, is quite clear about this.
Of course I do no
I don't expect the ACLU to understand this... and since very few people serve any longer, I don't expect MOST civilians to get this either.
He is lucky he is not facing some time in the brig... quite frankly, and a reduction in rank.
Who in the world could type that without being drunk, I don't care what your first language is?
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Don't these DUmmkopfs all believe Bradley Manning is a hero?
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Yep. The crazy bald dwarf served in the Army of Oz, Lollipop Guild Division.
Her military service has been confined to the maneuvers of her little painted toy soldiers in that fantasy game she plays.
Not even the mexican army will take a four-foot-tall, mentally ill dwarf.
She no more served than that fake soldier numbersBoo.
This military service thing is one of her more disturbing hallucinations.
I just don't get it...I know these DUmbasses hate the MIC.
The M part indicates military.
So why do so many of them pretend to have been in the military.
UGH...the whole thing gives me a headache!
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Don't these DUmmkopfs all believe Bradley Manning is a hero?
Yes. Manning is a hero for two reasons: he's queer, and he committed treason against the United States.
It doesn't get much better in democrat circles.
They hate this other guy because he dissed the jug-eared muslim.
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Don't these DUmmkopfs all believe Bradley Manning is a hero?
Oddly--and this for sure is going to blow your mind--there's one primitive who doesn't.
The dork, MrUgly.
I guess the scorpion primitive was one time in the U.S. Air Force.
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Is nadin claiming that she has children, or is she trying to make it appear as if she was the Officer/Senior Enlisted in charge of actual troops?
Maybe she's talking about her conures, that she often refers to as her children, or maybe she is referring to the guy who drove the ambulance that she swept out at the end of shift down in TJ back in the '80s.
It's always a mystery with nadin. Mostly because it is all bullshit.
How is it she reminds me of my favorite sea story about the guy who strides up the gang plank and proudly declares he has been everywhere and done everything in this man's Navy save $ucked dick and been &ucked it in the ass. By the end of the day the crew made sure he was able to make that statement without equivocation. :thatsright:
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Who in the world could type that without being drunk, I don't care what your first language is?
It's native nadinese. Just recently they made it one of the languages that you must learn to join the fictional Spirit-Guide Corps. Nadinese is like a lot of foreign languages in that it is sometimes difficult to do a 100% translation into English. I just completed my course in nadinese so I decided to take a stab at translating the post.
First, the original post in native nadinese:
Not the military and the UCMJ
which obviously he slept through in BASIC, is quite clear about this.
Of course I do no
I don't expect the ACLU to understand this... and since very few people serve any longer, I don't expect MOST civilians to get this either.
He is lucky he is not facing some time in the brig... quite frankly, and a reduction in rank.
Now the translation into English:
I'm an idiot who pretends to know everything. I pretend to have done everything. My intelligence is much more fictional than even a fictional spirit-guide, and every time I make an attempt to display my make-believe intelligence in a post I actually display my utter stupidity instead.
Just keep in mind that this is a rough translation.
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I'm an idiot who pretends to know everything. I pretend to have done everything. My intelligence is much more fictional than even a fictional spirit-guide, and every time I make an attempt to display my make-believe intelligence in a post I actually display my utter stupidity instead.
Thanks, that helps.
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OK, its come full circle now. NADIN IS TOM IN TIB! :panic:
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I'm an idiot who pretends to know everything. I pretend to have done everything. My intelligence is much more fictional than even a fictional spirit-guide, and every time I make an attempt to display my make-believe intelligence in a post I actually display my utter stupidity instead.
Just keep in mind that this is a rough translation.
Nadinese must be the simplest language on earth.
Everything she writes can be translated into that same short paragraph.
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OK, its come full circle now. NADIN IS TOM IN TIB! :panic:
She has to be.
There is just no way in hell that the individual in the pictures could even pass a physical, much less survive basic, and then be qualified enough to deployed to the AOR.
There is absolutely no f-ing way that thing ever served a day in her life.
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I think a better story would have been that she did face a firing squad but was able to bend the bullets away from her body with her superior mind.
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She's like NEO in the Matrix. She doesn't even have to dodge them anymore. She can simply will them to stop and fall to the ground.
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She has to be.
There is just no way in hell that the individual in the pictures could even pass a physical, much less survive basic, and then be qualified enough to deployed to the AOR.
There is absolutely no f-ing way that thing ever served a day in her life.
Actually--and this part is kind of melancholy, kind of sad--when I first saw the authenticated photographs of nadin, I was suddenly remembering all I'd seen in the socialist paradises of the workers and peasants, including those lilliputian because of undernourishment and free medical care.
Or, in another sense, nadin looks very much like her ancestors in Poland prior to 1939, undersized because of bad nourishment and anti-Semitic harassment and persecution.
Those of Hebraic derivation who emigrated to America tended to eat well and grow healthily.
But nadin's grandparents had emigrated to a third-world country.
It's sad that she's stunted, but at the same time one doesn't feel sorry for her, because of her ego and arrogance.
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Nadinese must be the simplest language on earth.
Everything she writes can be translated into that same short paragraph.
It only seems simple. Yes, there is indeed a common thread in each of the translations, but there are also some slight variations.
Take the below post in the native nadinese:
Read what he did
He did NOT complaint of HIS DIRECT CHAIN giving him a direct order that was ilegal. For god sakes, YOU KNOW THE UCMJ. If you receive such an order you are not just supposed to disobey it, but you SHOULD DISOBEY IT.
You are not talking to somebody who does not know this. For the record I DISOBEYED a direct and very ilegal order, so try that one with somebody who is clueless. In time of war I COULD HAVE FACED a wall and a firing squad.
What he did was make a POLITICAL statement, which in no military I know off is kosher or allowed. You do understand the difference, though from your posts, I am no longer sure if you do, or you pretend not to.
Translated into English:
In my fantasies I have done many great things. I try, through my fairy tale posts, to get you to believe that I am great instead of delusional. My ignorance and stupidity, however, shows through and sane people can see the stupidity that is me. Surprisingly enough, even through my ignorance and stupidity is astounding, my arrogance often surpasses them both.
It's very similar to the previous translation but still somewhat different. That's what makes nadinese an interesting language. What can also make the translations difficult is that her keyboard often has quotas on letters. You'll notice on the post in the original nadinese that her keyboard set a two "L" limit per word. (See the underlined words.)
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I know it's early...
I know.
But it seems to me that the nutcase is going to be formidable opponent for the DOTY.
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Actually--and this part is kind of melancholy, kind of sad--when I first saw the authenticated photographs of nadin, I was suddenly remembering all I'd seen in the socialist paradises of the workers and peasants, including those lilliputian because of undernourishment and free medical care.
Or, in another sense, nadin looks very much like her ancestors in Poland prior to 1939, undersized because of bad nourishment and anti-Semitic harassment and persecution.
Those of Hebraic derivation who emigrated to America tended to eat well and grow healthily.
But nadin's grandparents had emigrated to a third-world country.
It's sad that she's stunted, but at the same time one doesn't feel sorry for her, because of her ego and arrogance.
I wonder if she really believes the crap she spouts.
Her claims are so out there that I just find it hard to believe that she really believes what she writes.
Does that make any sense or do I need to have another beer?
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I wonder if she really believes the crap she spouts.
Her claims are so out there that I just find it hard to believe that she really believes what she writes.
Does that make any sense or do I need to have another beer?
As I've maintained for years, one of the main personality traits of the liberal is pathological liar.
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As I've maintained for years, one of the main personality traits of the liberal is pathological liar.
Pathological liar or just desperate for validation?
That she has value, that she contributes, that she has accomplished worthy things in her life?
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Pathological liar or just desperate for validation?
That she has value, that she contributes, that she has accomplished worthy things in her life?
Pathological liar. Every liberal I have ever studied in real life or online has exhibited the need to lie about everything. Even small details that don't matter.
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Pathological liar. Every liberal I have ever studied in real life or online has exhibited the need to lie about everything. Even small details that don't matter.
Interesting, I always assumed the DUmmies were just small people, envious of others and their accomplishments.
Pathological liar would answer a lot of questions.
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In time of war I COULD HAVE FACED a wall and a firing squad.
The bullets would all strike the wall a foot above her head.