The Conservative Cave
The Bar => Introductions & Subsequent Welcomes => Topic started by: Erratus on November 05, 2011, 07:44:04 PM
-
I'll start off by saying that I am, in fact, quite liberal (though more strongly with social issues than fiscal). I am not here to troll (or even to be particularly augmentative), but to explore an issue. Whenever I present myself with a new political issue, I like to get multiple view points, particularly if I am not too well versed in the issue. Well, I was asked recently to defend capitalism and I realized that I never really thought about it. I always took for granted that a mixed economy was the best form of economy. So I decided to explore the issue a bit and and look into the merits of socialism and communism. And, of course, I couldn't go without some pro-capitalism. So, I am on this site to run by any arguments for communism/socialism/whatever that I find particularly persuasive and see if you guys can poke any holes in them. You guys said you didn't have to agree with conservatism and hopefully I am not too far left to be gone to you. So, yeah, hi.
-
So...
What country has ever had communism or socialism actually work?
-
Welcome, bring it on! :cheersmate:
I gave you a high five for demonstrating the courtesy of beginning with a proper introduction, bravo.
:-)
-
I'll start off by saying that I am, in fact, quite liberal (though more strongly with social issues than fiscal). I am not here to troll (or even to be particularly augmentative), but to explore an issue. Whenever I present myself with a new political issue, I like to get multiple view points, particularly if I am not too well versed in the issue. Well, I was asked recently to defend capitalism and I realized that I never really thought about it. I always took for granted that a mixed economy was the best form of economy. So I decided to explore the issue a bit and and look into the merits of socialism and communism. And, of course, I couldn't go without some pro-capitalism. So, I am on this site to run by any arguments for communism/socialism/whatever that I find particularly persuasive and see if you guys can poke any holes in them. You guys said you didn't have to agree with conservatism and hopefully I am not too far left to be gone to you. So, yeah, hi.
Food for thought from another currently active thread elsewhere on this site~
"The New York Post spoke with Shamil Cepeda, one of the 21 workers laid off at the Milk Street Cafe. The 23 year-old said she supported the OWS movement…until they caused her to be laid off. “If they would just go get a real job, helping real people, that would help a lot more than just taking up space and shouting at people and putting others they claim to care for out of work,â€.
As far as the "merits" of socialism and communism go, I'll spare you the trouble of looking for them. There aren't any.
What they have given us are monuments to "progressivism" in the form of the unmarked graves and communal burial pits of more than 50,000,000 people worldwide.
-
Hi 5 for the same reason as FreeBorn. Welcome.
-
I gave you a high five for demonstrating the courtesy of beginning with a proper introduction, bravo.
Ditto.
-
Welcome.
-
Communism has never come to power in a country that was not disrupted by war or corruption, or both.
John F. Kennedy
This is why I can't understand that in this country we have people like you and OWS protesting for it? It has never been put into play by a Govt but to control and enslave its people. It has never brought anything but misery. It can't and will never work for the simple reason people long to be free. As Frank Zappa would say "people like to own stuff".
-
I guess I am interested in hearing why you believe there are any merits to socialism/communism. Once I see where your mindset is at, I will comment further on both.
Welcome.
-
Welcome to the cave and thanks for a thoughtful introduction.
Socialism sounds great in theory but never works in practice due to human nature.
That means eventually it has to be enforced by the point of a sword or barrel of a gun.
The Berlin wall was not built to keep people out of East Germany but to trap its citizens in.
Why would anyone want that for a government and life?
-
[50%][/50%]
I guess I am interested in hearing why you believe there are any merits to socialism/communism. Once I see where your mindset is at, I will comment further on both.
Welcome.
My mindset at this point is just curious. I want to know how communists defend communism. Or, put another way, see what communists/socialists say are the merits. If I find any compelling I will see what people here have to say about it. As of right now I do not believe there are any merits. That is what I am looking at.
-
Welcome to the cave and thanks for a thoughtful introduction.
Socialism sounds great in theory but never works in practice due to human nature.
That means eventually it has to be enforced by the point of a sword or barrel of a gun.
The Berlin wall was not built to keep people out of East Germany but to trap its citizens in.
Why would anyone want that for a government and life?
HI5 to you, Carl, for saying what I was thinking. :cheersmate:
HI5 to the newbie for his thoughtful introduction.
May I ask, how old are you? I'm 52 (53 next month); in my 20's and into my 30's I was a liberal. Then I realized the money hubby was earning wasn't necessarily staying with US, it was going to fund alot of deadbeats along with some valuable programs. Anyway, I'm curious about where you are on life's short journey.
-
Welcome! Appreciate the introduction! We're a nice bunch and manners are important so I for one say "thank you" for being upfront and civil.
-
If capitalism did not exist, it would be necessary to invent it — and its discovery would be rightly regarded as one of the great triumphs of the human mind. ---Henry Hazlitt
-
I want to know how communists defend communism.
Or, put another way, see what communists/socialists say are the merits. If I find any compelling I will see what people here have to say about it. As of right now I do not believe there are any merits. That is what I am looking at.
It's quite simple. As I've said many times they are insane, usually proven with the statement: (paraphrasing)
"It just didn't work, this time"
Welcome
-
Well take a look at the mixed economies of Europe. Most of them worked for years, not because of the socialism, but the underlying foundation of capitalism. In every case, socialist experiments fail. The healthcare of the EU countries started with great fanfare but fails to provide for everyone, and rationing is a part of life in Europe.
When a human being is denied healthcare in a socialist system, he is not informed that he is too expensive for the state to treat. He is told we are putting you on a "waiting list." The "waiting list" is a nice little lie that allows people to die instead of being cared for by the state. People in Europe DIE of medical conditions that are treatable here in the US.
Rationing in the guise of waiting lists have already been made law in the US. These laws were not in the health care bill, but were hidden in the stimulus package that was too big for senators to read before they voted. If you are elderly, mentally handicapped, or have any "Expensive" disease; US law (passed by democrats) will deny you health care. Such are the wonders of socialized medicine.
But look again at Europe. The states are collapsing economically. Why. Its not the capitalism, no its the socialist programs that are sucking all the money. Socialism requires ever increasing amounts of money: at some point you run out of money. See socialism promises the moon, and get drunk on the milk of human kindness. BUT. Socialism cannot afford the ever increasing entitlements promised to the people.
GREECE is a perfect example. They are out of money and are being forced to cut back on entitlements. The people riot because they have been told these entitlements are their just due. Govt's collapse because the people turn against those who have cut of the flow of govt freebies.
ALL OF EUROPE is shaking at its foundation because they cannot provide what socialism promises.
Collapses like we see in the EU are the meat and drink that cause tyrants to rise in power.
Socialism not just failed in Europe, but ultimately endangers the people.
Communism is worse than even socialism. It promises utopia, but delivers only monstrous tyranny on par with Nazi Germany. because it cannot deliver its promises, the all powerful state maintains power by the sword.
The old Soviet Union was a super power because it had nukes, but its economy was a third world misfit. Production was based on quotas that were never enough to meet the needs of the people. The communists ate American wheat because govt control of farming was too inefficient to feed their own people. At its collapse, the USSR was too poor to even pay for moving its soldiers out of East Germany.
with the Soviet boot off their necks, the eastern block wasted no time in overthrowing their former masters and embracing capitalism. Today Eastern Europe is NOT on the verge of economic collapse. Why? They are no longer socialist.
If communism worked, why did no Easter European nation chose to remain communist?
The only other large communist nation, China has embraced CAPITALISM to keep its economy afloat,
If you learn nothing else: learn this. You can never be free and Communist at the same time. Communism cannot grant freedom. It will always be a tyranny. It promise utopia but it will never ever deliver. It cannot tolerate dissent, opposing political parties, free speech, or a free press. Communism allows no competition, it must have total utter control.
---In both Russia and China, the murderous purge killed far more people that Hitler ever dreamed of. The worst human rights abuses have been generated by communists.
Only a fool gives power to a communist.