The Conservative Cave
Interests => Religious Discussions => Topic started by: SSG Snuggle Bunny on September 28, 2011, 12:17:37 PM
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Recently while having a broad discussion on various subjects from racism to politics to religion this one particular interlocutor was as adamant as ever that religion was hooey. This was not this person's first anti-religious tirade; she seems hardly capable of containing herself simply passing by a church marquee.
Thye list of complaints was so typical as to be droll, i.e. God must hate poor people, the Crusades were bad, belief in miracles are superstituous explanations of physical phenomenon, science trumps all, etc etc etc For all the claims by this individual to have read I was struck by how much she has not read because so many of these points have counterpoints available for even the most cursory inspector.
But what really galled me was how, despite her railing against faith as unscientific she leapt, with only barest arguments for the position that alien life must surely exist. She was certain of it. It was an article of her creed.
So then I wondered to myself, not really caring to speak with her as a person and no other person was permitted a word in edgewise, why she would so readily confess aliens at the expense of angels.
I can only imagine one theory:
morality
By every description aliens and angels share the same traits: physical beings, mobility, intellect, etc but only angels bring in the topic of morality. They are the heralds of the Divine, who is morality personified. Morality makes demands. It imposes itself in inconvenient ways because it interferes with the self and demanding we consider the others.
Certainly a person who would not allow fellow conversants to conversate while berating their most heart-felt beliefs would blanch at the notion of having to consider the feelings of others.
Aliens, by contrast, will give us knowledge which we in turn will turn to our own ends. We will take their knowledge and cure disease and infirmity and make ourselves immortal. We will then soar among the stars and we will create great marvels that would make lesser men tremble with awe.
All that stuff you read about in science fiction.
One must wonder if this wonderful knowledge will come in the shape of an apple.
So why are the virulently skeptical so accepting of aliens and yet so rejecting of angels?
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SSB,
I love reading your philosophical stuff!
Aliens, by contrast, will give us knowledge which we in turn will turn to our own ends. We will take their knowledge and cure disease and infirmity and make ourselves immortal. We will then soar among the stars and we will create great marvels that would make lesser men tremble with awe.
All that stuff you read about in science fiction.
One must wonder if this wonderful knowledge will come in the shape of an apple.
Kind of gives a whole new twist to the myth of Promethius, Pandora, and the tree of knowledge. Also, in the bible, angels are much more fearsome than those cute little fat babies with wings painted by the Italian Renaissance artists.
From Exekiel 10:14: And each one had four faces. The first face was the face of a cherub, the second face was the face of a man, the third the face of a lion, and the fourth the face of an eagle.
Not exactly what we're used to...
(http://www.bible-history.com/tabernacle/images/COVER2A.gif)
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SSB,
I love reading your philosophical stuff!
Thank-you.
I'm usually quite self-conscious about it because I know I tend to stray from the usual sorts of conversations. Before I write I usually ask myself, "Is this the sort of crap Vesta111 would say?"
Kind of gives a whole new twist to the myth of Promethius, Pandora, and the tree of knowledge.
It was the knowledge of good and evil specifically but the sales-pitch was, "you shall be as gods yourselves" but your link to pagan myth is well-placed. The story of the introduction of evil into the world, the the worldwide deluge, is retold a thousand times but the subtext is always the same.
Curious.
Symbolically, the number 4 is associated with the world, i.e. 4 seasons, 4 compass directions, etc
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Thank-you.
I'm usually quite self-conscious about it because I know I tend to stray from the usual sorts of conversations. Before I write I usually ask myself, "Is this the sort of crap Vesta111 would say?"
It was the knowledge of good and evil specifically but the sales-pitch was, "you shall be as gods yourselves" but your link to pagan myth is well-placed. The story of the introduction of evil into the world, the the worldwide deluge, is retold a thousand times but the subtext is always the same.
Curious.
Symbolically, the number 4 is associated with the world, i.e. 4 seasons, 4 compass directions, etc
Mr. Bunny, not by the hair on my chinie-chin -chin.
Both Alians and Angles look some what human, even GOD is depicted as resembling man kind in body form. We were made in GOD"S image, what ever that means, I believe in evolution.
I believe it was Betty and Barney Hill who were both the first to describe the Alians as little dudes gray in color, no ears and huge eyes. [ Space Suit????] I had a SCUBA full suit when I was into diving and with the goggles, had the suit been gray, I would have looked much like their Alien.
As we have seen in the Fight Club and the jokers that ran my past posts through a translater and how that very funny results came out of this practice of translations.
Thinking back 2,000 years and the meaning of the words, used at that time, the Rosetta Stone, translating the thoughts and ideas on the Black Sea Scrolls into modern day meaning is very difficult.
" OOH that is wicked cool-- over a good warm fire pit" Example.
Angle can mean anything from a producer on Brodway, a Genie in a bottle, a good visitor, A dream with good advice, a close friend of GOD, one who is loyal to HIM. Many people get a strange feeling, don't take that flight, don't do this don't do that that pops into our mind and it is not crazy to believe that an Angle whispered into our mind---Guardian Angles.
All things are possible, we believe in Evil spirits, bad luck to walk under a ladder, we Christian our Ships that sail the seas, We have a priest come to our new home or apartment and bless our home.
We believe in EVIL people and places, I have all ways wondered if Evil is a form of insanity.
There is no way I would ever put down others beliefs, I try to understand them, study on how these beliefs evolved through the history of mankind.
Question is, how to understand the mind set of humans that for 10,000+ years have and today still hold the ideas based on ideas that were had at a time in history by people who had a very different understanding of the world.
There may in fact be Angles and Alians and I will not put down either idea, what the heck, things are being found every day using the Bible and Science.
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I used to pride myself on comprehending the seemingly inscrutable.
I am undone.
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I used to pride myself on comprehending the seemingly inscrutable.
I am undone.
Ah Mr. Bunny, take this one step at a time, don't try to jump into everthing at once. One that has an interest in religion or faith must go to the time what ever was formed and what good did it actually do for the followers.
Of all faiths I would have to say Christianity has done far more good then bad in 2,000 years.
This is naturally one heck of a long time for this faith to have hung around especially for the educated at all times in history. When the Church split, and the Mother Church lost the right of life and death to the common people and the rulers of many country's, both ruling by family or sword, still the basic platform did not die, indeed it was carried peacefully to all corners of the earth.
There is an old joke about Catholic missionary's that found head hunters in the jungle. With their faith they convinced a tribe to no longer head hunt or cannibalise the neighbors. To consume human flesh is a sin, then after when the missionary's thought the tribe was ready to come to the Lord, they made a fatal mistake, They introduced Communion.
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What the hell does any of that have to do with the psychology behind why skeptics accept aliens sight unseen but deride angels for lack of scientific evidence?
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What the hell does any of that have to do with the psychology behind why skeptics accept aliens sight unseen but deride angels for lack of scientific evidence?
Nothing, but it's typical of vestanumbers, don't you think?
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What the hell does any of that have to do with the psychology behind why skeptics accept aliens sight unseen but deride angels for lack of scientific evidence?
I found myself from following links at you tube site for atheist's, interesting.
I found myself thinking about the unseen but proved facts of medical science. How to prove a negative.
So even today with all the proof in the world from science I can look at my fingers but see nothing, I see they are there but cannot see bacteria, viruses or anything but my fingers.
In my mind science tells me there are are nasty stuff on my fingers but look as I will, I can see nothing.
How am I to believe I cannot see these things but they are there. Where is the proof to my own eyes that things are going on on my skin I cannot see. Microscopes may show this, but for us who do not have access to a microscope, the very idea is incompresencebable -----what we cannot see cannot exist.
Faith is much like this, the Atheists ask for proof but they have no tools to See. Everything is by sight only, they put all things down to sight only.
When we of faith see a wonderful sun set we thank God for the earth, Atheist's on the other hand see this as due to weather or the sun position.
When we of faith see not God but his works, people that for no medical reason recover from a deadly disease, come out of comas after a couple years, fall from great height's and live, are pulled from frozen lakes ----Will continue later, family arriving.
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I found myself from following links at you tube site for atheist's, interesting.
I found myself thinking about the unseen but proved facts of medical science. How to prove a negative.
<snip>
Vesta,
Considering the forum, if you have something salient to add to the discussion, please do so, however:
If you can do it in twenty words or less (not twenty paragraphs), we all would be appreciative......
Hint: Before hitting the "post" button, it would be helpful if you reviewed the opening post to determine if what you're saying has anything at all to do with the specific topic at hand.
Thank you......
doc
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I believe in both. I also believe that there are more angels around us than we realize and they are ever present. Aliens, OTOH, are present only sometimes and are not always here for the good of mankind.
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Vesta,
Considering the forum, if you have something salient to add to the discussion, please do so, however:
If you can do it in twenty words or less (not twenty paragraphs), we all would be appreciative......
Hint: Before hitting the "post" button, it would be helpful if you reviewed the opening post to determine if what you're saying has anything at all to do with the specific topic at hand.
Thank you......
doc
I stand corrected SIR, I shall pehaps go over the 20 words by a few but will for your reading pleasure try to keep count :suckup: [25]
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Hm-m-m...
ORLANDO, Fla. — The discovery of intelligent aliens would be mind-blowing in many respects, but it could present a special dilemma for the world's religions, theologians pondering interstellar travel concepts said Saturday (Oct. 1).
Christians, in particular, might take the news hardest, because the Christian belief system does not easily allow for other intelligent beings in the universe, Christian thinkers said at the 100 Year Starship Symposium, a meeting sponsored by the Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency (DARPA) to discuss issues surrounding traveling to other stars.
In other words, "Did Jesus die for Klingons too?" as philosophy professor Christian Weidemannof Germany's Ruhr-University Bochum titled his talk at a panel on the philosophical and religious considerations of visiting other worlds.
http://www.livescience.com/16345-aliens-religion-impacts-extraterrestrial-christianity.html
I've always been of the opinion that a secondary reason atheists are so enamored with the idea of aliens is the above issue could be used as a cudgel against "especially Christians." To me it is tantamount to an atheist demanding to know how many sentient extra-dimensional beings can dance on the head of a pin.
Of course the issue mentioned in the article has far too many caveats to consider.
* Every sentient race may not be morally aware. Moral awareness came after humanity ate of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil. In other words they may have never fallen and remain in their original station of undefiled Good.
* A morally aware race may have also repented. Humanity became morally aware and hid from God out of shame. Another race may have simply stepped forward, dropped the fig leaves and said, "Yeah, I screwed up."
* Another race may have been so depraved they didn't even get a Noah when their world was reset and the entire damned species was readicated.
* Another race may have received its Messiah and accepted Him the first go 'round.
* Another race may have rejected its Messiah or wholly exterminated His followers leaving no Gospel to work through their species.
Or perhaps, most terrifyingly, but certainly in accord with the absolute moral authority of deity:
* Maybe they are just as fallen as humanity, but as grace is just that--GRACE--the parole granted to humanity need not be extended to any others. No innocent being is ever consigned to eternal separation and none ever will be but that doesn't mean the parole need to extended to all. Justice and Mercy can coexist within the same God but Mercy is not a requisite of Justice.
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So why are the virulently skeptical so accepting of aliens and yet so rejecting of angels?
Just another attempt by "science" to attempt to co-opt religion. In this case it's extraterrestrials replacing angels. They've already replaced a Creation with a Big Bang version of a creation, so what's to stop them here.
Science and religion are wrong in both cases because, on these issues, both require belief and speculation, and neither can be proved. But then, I'm just an amiable atheist, so what do I know.........(http://members.socket.net/~mcruzan/avatars/shrug.gif)
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Just another attempt by "science" to attempt to co-opt religion. In this case it's extraterrestrials replacing angels. They've already replaced a Creation with a Big Bang version of a creation, so what's to stop them here.
Science and religion are wrong in both cases because, on these issues, both require belief and speculation, and neither can be proved. But then, I'm just an amiable atheist, so what do I know?
Would you say any and all theory is wrong and should be discounted completely?
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Would you say any and all theory is wrong and should be discounted completely?
This is the crux of the thread then, isn't it.
Based on the data points of the story: burst of light, consolidation of matter, formation of stars, etc etc etc there may be some points in the linear timeline of the separate descriptions but essentially they are the same stoy.
But each camp prefers it's own version.
So what is the difference?
As near as sub-texts are concerned the only difference I can see is:
MATERIALIST: The universe is the result of mechanical processes set in motion by unplanned physical laws that exist and operate by happenstance and without purpose.
In other words: the universe is amoral
THEIST: The universe is the creation of a benign Creator who has a purpose and who metes out justice tempered by mercy.
In other words: the universe is moral
Now, absent revelation the latter theory cannot be proven nor the former disproven. Some claim that revelation has occurred and has been duly recorded in one form or another but that's another, different thread entirely and I'll use my Mod-Wand to zot any post veering into debates on the validity of scripture, regardless of sect (I'm talking to you, you Zoastrian bastards!).
Conversely the materialists are in the tricky situation of claiming--tautologically--that science is that which observes the universe. Well, it's a rather difficult thing to claim nothing exists outside the universe when you predicate your claim on only observing what is within the universe. It is akin to saying, "Nothing exists outside this room and I refuse to look out the wondow!"
Put another way, the materialist demands the Angels on High stop patronizing mangers and pay him a personal visit.
But if the materialist is so prepared to receive aliens how would he know an angel?
Conversely, if a zealot saw only angels how would he discern the presence of aliens...or worse?
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I am not a religious person, but I have less trouble believing in angels than I do in aliens.
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I am not a religious person, but I have less trouble believing in angels than I do in aliens.
The angels have a better PR team. :tinfoil2:
(http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff68/kayaktn/i-want-to-believe.jpg)
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What gets me is that the atheists claim that we cannot tell whether or not something is intelligently designed, yet we can keep funding SETI to look for signals that were intelligently designed. How can you tell, lol?
And no matter how hard they try, atheists cannot come up with any rational basis for morality that doesn't have glaring loopholes or smuggled-in assumptions.
Science in the 1700's, when it began to bloom, was largely based on the notion that there was an order to the universe. They believed this because they believed in an Orderer. Without such beliefs, it's not clear that modern science would be as far along as it is.
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What gets me is that the atheists claim that we cannot tell whether or not something is intelligently designed, yet we can keep funding SETI to look for signals that were intelligently designed. How can you tell, lol?
Good point.
And no matter how hard they try, atheists cannot come up with any rational basis for morality that doesn't have glaring loopholes or smuggled-in assumptions.
I have often asked my fellow irreligious sorts WHY I should do anything to their comfort or benefit with no successful replies.
Science in the 1700's, when it began to bloom, was largely based on the notion that there was an order to the universe. They believed this because they believed in an Orderer. Without such beliefs, it's not clear that modern science would be as far along as it is.
You may be off by a few dozen centuries.
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You may be off by a few dozen centuries.
You're right. It goes back much further than that. I had Sir Isaac Newton in mind when I wrote that. If I recall correctly, he wrote more about religion than he did science.
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I have some interesting reading for you all if you are interested!!!
"Extraterrestrials" and "Who The Bleep designed Us? A God? Ets? Both? Neither?"
both written by Stephen Mather-Lees
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You're right. It goes back much further than that. I had Sir Isaac Newton in mind when I wrote that. If I recall correctly, he wrote more about religion than he did science.
The Greeks and their intellectual descendents were very keen to logic and reason. The gods were, perhaps, a bit too capricious for them and their inquiries were somewhat limited because of it but their feats of engineering are things us modern technocrats should worship in awe. They understood principles of hydraulics and could bore through mountains from opposite ends and meet in the middle only a few feet off-center of each other. They also understood lead poisoning without the benefit of chemical and bio-chemical testing.
The Hebrews and their Christian off-shoot were well underway from the earliest accountings. The Hebrews, after all, left Egypt, a culture than smeared feces on open wounds as a palliative. But immediately upon their liberation the Hebrews instituted sanitation procedures that would have spared the world numerous plagues if only the world would have listened.
I have some interesting reading for you all if you are interested!!!
An entire book? Probably not going to happen. Can you throw us a few morsels to chew-on?
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The Greeks and their intellectual descendents were very keen to logic and reason. The gods were, perhaps, a bit too capricious for them and their inquiries were somewhat limited because of it but their feats of engineering are things us modern technocrats should worship in awe. They understood principles of hydraulics and could bore through mountains from opposite ends and meet in the middle only a few feet off-center of each other. They also understood lead poisoning without the benefit of chemical and bio-chemical testing.
The Hebrews and their Christian off-shoot were well underway from the earliest accountings. The Hebrews, after all, left Egypt, a culture than smeared feces on open wounds as a palliative. But immediately upon their liberation the Hebrews instituted sanitation procedures that would have spared the world numerous plagues if only the world would have listened.
Unfortunately, lazy or politically correct historians have attributed too much of Christian and Jewish innovation to Islam simply because Islam ruled the area.
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Unfortunately, lazy or politically correct historians have attributed too much of Christian and Jewish innovation to Islam simply because Islam ruled the area.
The world has never been lacking for the desire to ignore good advice or to persecute good advice givers. Islam is just the latest rationale for those who reject their betters.
At sporadic times in European "Christian" history people threw human waste in the streets even though scripture told them to "leave that shit outside the camp" [NOTE: may not be a direct citation]. Why would supposed scripture adherents turn away from that scripture? My guess is: it was too "Jewish."
But I suppose that plays back into our original thread:
Why do people reject one thing when the very thing they are looking for fulfills their supposed need, only it comes attached with moral qualifiers?
What is it about moral qualifiers that so terrify people into irrational and sometimes self-destructive ends?
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Hmmmm, well the author, whom I have known for all my 46 years.
He brings up alot of interesting things, that we should keep an open mind about, including that we have had et's perhaps visit us, and if so, how do we open lines of communication with them.
Both books are around 95 pages each.
He does mention Roswell, other situations, people and places..
www.extraterrestrial-thebook.com
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But I suppose that plays back into our original thread:
Why do people reject one thing when the very thing they are looking for fulfills their supposed need, only it comes attached with moral qualifiers?
What is it about moral qualifiers that so terrify people into irrational and sometimes self-destructive ends?
You've hit the nail on the head here. I'd guess vanity and arrogance make us think that we've stumbled onto a new way to have our immoral cookie and our flourishing society, too. I think they're mutually exclusive.
That societies thrive when they are most moral and most productive is not a coincidence. While someone like Kant may not have found the traditional moral argument conclusive, it is to me compelling to the point of belief in God, who designed all of this so that morality and hard work cause nations to flourish. It just doesn't work any other way. Human history repeats itself, and we repeat the same mistakes and fail to learn the lessons consistently.
We can see that moral behavior actually works, and that only a certain brand of morality works. History provides us with the empirical evidence.
I like Aldous Huxley's quote:
"We are living now, not in the delicious intoxication induced by the early successes of science, but in a rather grisly morning-after, when it has become apparent that what triumphant science has done hitherto is to improve the means for achieving unimproved or actually deteriorated ends."
And he died before we put a man on the moon and Gore invented the internet. Sorry for the rambling. It's one of my favorite topics.
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Hmmmm, well the author, whom I have known for all my 46 years.
He brings up alot of interesting things, that we should keep an open mind about, including that we have had et's perhaps visit us, and if so, how do we open lines of communication with them.
Both books are around 95 pages each.
He does mention Roswell, other situations, people and places..
www.extraterrestrial-thebook.com
Not to beg for a spoiler, but what is the author's take on God?
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He is a Christian. My sister and I both went to a catholic school. He was raised in the Church of England. He believes God helps those who help themselves. He also feels that we, as a human species should open our minds and hearts and accept that there are perhaps peaceful beings out in the galaxies, that can help us: Whether it applies, to the enviroment, habitat,or offer other sources of alternative energy
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He is a Christian. My sister and I both went to a catholic school. He was raised in the Church of England. He believes God helps those who help themselves. He also feels that we, as a human species should open our minds and hearts and accept that there are perhaps peaceful beings out in the galaxies, that can help us: Whether it applies, to the enviroment, habitat,or offer other sources of alternative energy
Sea, I was raised to believe there was a great war in the heavens. God had a rebellion on his hands, one of his most trusted Angels for some reason wanted to usurp God and have their own way
[This sounds like science fiction] --------- So God managed to cast out the Devil and his followers into hell, yet in the story of Job, the Devil and God still were on speaking terms, like old friends and betting on the outcome of what would some poor man do when he lost his family. Would this Victim stay with God or go to the Devil.
A most horrid story as the Job lost his wife and family to disease and what not, all as part of the bet between God and the Devil. Oh yes Job was rewarded with a new wife and lots of children, but I wonder about the Innocent first family involved.
In fact the devil was allowed to test Jesus a time or too, the devil did not stay in hell but was allowed by God to walk the earth. In fact The Devil was allowed to be on earth as the first humans came, to temp Eve to the tree of knowledge that only God and Adam knew about. Seems no one told her about the the forbidden fruit she had not talked to God and Adam never told her not to go near the tree.
The question in my mind is, is Earth the Hell God sent the Devil to, why is he still wandering about in the times of the Bible and into our time ???
Sea, ask your friend about this as they seem to believe in ---those out there. Were we an experiment from those who seeded our planet, did those check on us from time to time to see how earth was doing???
Good topic, Sea, one that can range from Religion to Science and on to a hundred different roads to follow .
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Vesta, The Author is my father...When this topic came up, I took it as a sign to help either promote his book or give some food for thought. I find many individuals on this board are very intelligent, like our dear friend , Sparky, and open minded like our dear friend , Franksolitch..
Having intelligent discussions, with open minds and open hearts are invigorating for the mind and soul...
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Vesta, The Author is my father...When this topic came up, I took it as a sign to help either promote his book or give some food for thought. I find many individuals on this board are very intelligent, like our dear friend , Sparky, and open minded like our dear friend , Franksolitch..
Having intelligent discussions, with open minds and open hearts are invigorating for the mind and soul...
Sea, your Dad and my Mom would be interesting to listen to debating this subject.
Mom has no fear of death at her age, her fear is that the day after she dies life will be found --Out there-- and she will never know.
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Sea, I was raised to believe there was a great war in the heavens. God had a rebellion on his hands, one of his most trusted Angels for some reason wanted to usurp God and have their own way
[This sounds like science fiction] --------- So God managed to cast out the Devil and his followers into hell, yet in the story of Job, the Devil and God still were on speaking terms, like old friends and betting on the outcome of what would some poor man do when he lost his family. Would this Victim stay with God or go to the Devil.
A most horrid story as the Job lost his wife and family to disease and what not, all as part of the bet between God and the Devil. Oh yes Job was rewarded with a new wife and lots of children, but I wonder about the Innocent first family involved.
In fact the devil was allowed to test Jesus a time or too, the devil did not stay in hell but was allowed by God to walk the earth. In fact The Devil was allowed to be on earth as the first humans came, to temp Eve to the tree of knowledge that only God and Adam knew about. Seems no one told her about the the forbidden fruit she had not talked to God and Adam never told her not to go near the tree.
The question in my mind is, is Earth the Hell God sent the Devil to, why is he still wandering about in the times of the Bible and into our time ???
Sea, ask your friend about this as they seem to believe in ---those out there. Were we an experiment from those who seeded our planet, did those check on us from time to time to see how earth was doing???
Good topic, Sea, one that can range from Religion to Science and on to a hundred different roads to follow .
A couple of points. Eve knew not to eat the fruit. Genesis 3:2-3 And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden: But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.
As far as I know there is no where in the Bible that says that the devil has already been cast into hell. He was just cast out of heaven.
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A couple of points. Eve knew not to eat the fruit. Genesis 3:2-3 And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden: But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.
As far as I know there is no where in the Bible that says that the devil has already been cast into hell. He was just cast out of heaven.
And Job's wife didn't die, rather she remained to nag him to turn on God. And the kids were wiped out by a tornado, I believe, not disease. I often wonder exactly what Bible Vesta reads... :lmao:
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I think the atheist/materialist of the type SGT Bunny describes can accept aliens simply because the universe is vast, if life exists here, it must exist elsewhere in the universe. Of course, until we have a sufficiently developed technology or aliens decide to grace us with their presence, it remains unproven.
When people leave religion behind, they do not leave behind the need to believe that men are essentially sinful in nature. Having rejected God, the only hope to cling to is aliens intellectually advanced enough to lead us out of our own inner darkness. Since, in their mind, there is no longer a "God" to save us, the great probability that alien life exists is the only hope, until disproved, to cling to.
I'm not sure if nagging moralistic angels are the reason the type of person SGT Bunny described rejects the existence of angels, I think it is simply too much baggage associated with angels over the years, be it religious or New Age. Or, it may simply be rejection of a part of a whole that has already been rejected. Why even think about the messengers of God when God has already been eliminated from the picture.
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I think the atheist/materialist of the type SGT Bunny describes can accept aliens simply because the universe is vast, if life exists here, it must exist elsewhere in the universe. Of course, until we have a sufficiently developed technology or aliens decide to grace us with their presence, it remains unproven.
When people leave religion behind, they do not leave behind the need to believe that men are essentially sinful in nature. Having rejected God, the only hope to cling to is aliens intellectually advanced enough to lead us out of our own inner darkness. Since, in their mind, there is no longer a "God" to save us, the great probability that alien life exists is the only hope, until disproved, to cling to.
I'm not sure if nagging moralistic angels are the reason the type of person SGT Bunny described rejects the existence of angels, I think it is simply too much baggage associated with angels over the years, be it religious or New Age. Or, it may simply be rejection of a part of a whole that has already been rejected. Why even think about the messengers of God when God has already been eliminated from the picture.
Don't know about all this, but studying the Eskimo culture, these people managed to raise children that had no concept of theft. They could be starving to death but not even think about the stealing the neighbors food. Food. fish drying on the lines at 50 feet but no way would they steal the food.
Interesting culture, interesting life style, how they survived , perhaps the most civilized people on earth. They had their faith, most of their lives were built on faith.
They were doing well and thriving until we with our faith invaded and brought along disease and practices that caused the life style to slowly die out.
It seems that we who believe in Christ or Mohammad, have invaded and done nothing but harm.
Faith has to be united with the living conditions of the people, their history and not interfear with with the peoples survival.
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Maybe morality derives from a desire for a civil society and has little to do with angels. Maybe angels being Messengers of God simply put forth what would work best to keep the peace to a group of people who may have felt like the OWS of their day, allegedly just escaping slavery in Egypt.
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Maybe morality derives from a desire for a civil society and has little to do with angels. Maybe angels being Messengers of God simply put forth what would work best to keep the peace to a group of people who may have felt like the OWS of their day, allegedly just escaping slavery in Egypt.
But this is where I think the anti-theists center their resistance.
If there is a moral messanger that implies a moral message writer. They don't resist the notion of angels because they despise angels but because they despise the notion of a moral and active god.
Consider how many atheists could wax romantically about alternate dimensions but they bristle at the notion of Heaven or Hell. Again, it isn't because they are opposed to discussing different planes of being but because Heaven and Hell have moral foundations while Earth-X has no implied morality.
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But this is where I think the anti-theists center their resistance.
If there is a moral messanger that implies a moral message writer. They don't resist the notion of angels because they despise angels but because they despise the notion of a moral and active god.
Consider how many atheists could wax romantically about alternate dimensions but they bristle at the notion of Heaven or Hell. Again, it isn't because they are opposed to discussing different planes of being but because Heaven and Hell have moral foundations while Earth-X has no implied morality.
Off topic but I am curious now: Do you know if they bristle at the idea of an Atlantis?
I kind of bristle at Atlantis, mostly because of cheesy TV shows, like The Man from Atlantis. But I can accept the idea of a highly advanced civilization in the remote past that came to some cataclysmic end.
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Off topic but I am curious now: Do you know if they bristle at the idea of an Atlantis?
I kind of bristle at Atlantis, mostly because of cheesy TV shows, like The Man from Atlantis. But I can accept the idea of a highly advanced civilization in the remote past that came to some cataclysmic end.
New Agers--to my mind a sub-set of anti-Christianists--revel in the idea of Atlantis. What's not to love? The civilization before civilization. Wondrous technology. Peace, Wisdom. Art. Enlightenment. Lost through no fault of their own.
I can't help but think that to them it's better way to thumb your nose at the xtians than to say there is such a thing as man-made Heaven on Earth if only it weren't for some non-morality based accident (Rising ocean? Global warming perhaps? :fuelfire: ).
Look at all the creeds anti-xtians scoop-up under their umbrella of "tolerance." So long as you say, "Anyone can be saved/enlightened/whatever" you qualify. It's only those who say, "Um-m-m, actually there are standards and we don't make the rules" that are not to be tolerated. In other words, it is morality that refuses to tolerate morality.
The exception of course are Muslims who get a free pass because the actively kill xtians and jews. Allies of convenience, really, as the ally of the Muslim hates xtians and jews because he lives amongst them and not amongst Muslims.
Who someone hates is as important as what they profess to love. In fact, it is the other side of the same coin.
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New Agers--to my mind a sub-set of anti-Christianists--revel in the idea of Atlantis. What's not to love? The civilization before civilization. Wondrous technology. Peace, Wisdom. Art. Enlightenment. Lost through no fault of their own.
I can't help but think that to them it's better way to thumb your nose at the xtians than to say there is such a thing as man-made Heaven on Earth if only it weren't for some non-morality based accident (Rising ocean? Global warming perhaps? :fuelfire: ).
Look at all the creeds anti-xtians scoop-up under their umbrella of "tolerance." So long as you say, "Anyone can be saved/enlightened/whatever" you qualify. It's only those who say, "Um-m-m, actually there are standards and we don't make the rules" that are not to be tolerated. In other words, it is morality that refuses to tolerate morality.
The exception of course are Muslims who get a free pass because the actively kill xtians and jews. Allies of convenience, really, as the ally of the Muslim hates xtians and jews because he lives amongst them and not amongst Muslims.
Who someone hates is as important as what they profess to love. In fact, it is the other side of the same coin.
Culture my dear Mr. Bunny, all comes down to culture.
Raise children in a closed society where everyone follows the same rites and customs and for generations the people believe what that they do is normal for them, be it eating the brains of a dead Grandpa to shrinking the heads of the enemy -----Nothing wrong with this, they consider outsiders to be evil, The idea of drinking the blood and eating the flesh of their GOD is unacceptable for them.
Culture causes more problems then Hate of an enemy, actually it leads to the very Hate and fear as it becomes a matter of survival of the very culture people are raised in.
Interesting how America is called the melting pot of the world, intermarriage of people lead to interesting possibility's never know before. Children born of Asian and Latino parents, then the kids go on to marry into a Swedish family. The grand kids are multi cultural and most likely the least likely to hate other cultures.
My own parents back in 1938 broke the rules, Dad a Sailor who good girls never dated, married my Mom a woman with a French Canadian father, Today a so what, but back then it took some real courage to do so.
Culture it changes, but is interesting for the kids.
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Don't know about all this, but studying the Eskimo culture, these people managed to raise children that had no concept of theft. They could be starving to death but not even think about the stealing the neighbors food. Food. fish drying on the lines at 50 feet but no way would they steal the food.
Interesting culture, interesting life style, how they survived , perhaps the most civilized people on earth. They had their faith, most of their lives were built on faith.
They were doing well and thriving until we with our faith invaded and brought along disease and practices that caused the life style to slowly die out.
It seems that we who believe in Christ or Mohammad, have invaded and done nothing but harm.
Faith has to be united with the living conditions of the people, their history and not interfear with with the peoples survival.
Without learning the Good News of Christ, it's much more difficult to end up in a relationship with the One that brings peace and love. I seriously doubt that the nature of man was so intensely different as today's romantic view of any Native Americans, Alaskan or otherwise...or for that matter, any group of natural humans, period.
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Without learning the Good News of Christ, it's much more difficult to end up in a relationship with the One that brings peace and love. I seriously doubt that the nature of man was so intensely different as today's romantic view of any Native Americans, Alaskan or otherwise...or for that matter, any group of natural humans, period.
Question for you Mrs.Smith, Humans walked the earth for millions of years before Jesus, the Bible, a book that was begun by the Jews is a wonder in the world to have survived to this day. The only records that exist perhaps even older then the Bible are the records of the Hindu faith that have never been completely translated as to the huge volume of texts.
My question is, if humanity separated by continents formed social rules to live by, what is a good or bad thing, how come BASIC guide lines are so much alike------ Do unto others as one wished to be treated, to the Kama idea of what goes around comes back to you. The theme is the same in all faiths, give an offering to the GODS, love them and be respectfull of them.
Then I have a question that no Christian faith has ever been able to answer. Why did Jesus need to be baptised by John the Baptist? Who was this John and why was he, a cousin of Jesus, doing this rite in the first place? What and why did these Jews decide that symbolically they could wash away their sin in a river before Jesus died?
The Vatican we know has many more books that are unreleased to the public, darn I would love to see all the chapters the world knows nothing about. In fact I have never read the Catholic Bible that has an extra chapter that the King James left out.
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Question for you Mrs.Smith, Humans walked the earth for millions of years before Jesus, the Bible, a book that was begun by the Jews is a wonder in the world to have survived to this day.
God was here when humans were created, and so was Christ. The Bible wasn't "begun by Jews," it began when God gave our history to Moses during the Exodus. It has survived to this day because it is the singly most reprinted book ever to exist on Earth. There are more complete and partial copies of the Bible than of all other ancient writings together. The only records that exist perhaps even older then the Bible are the records of the Hindu faith that have never been completely translated as to the huge volume of texts.
My question is, if humanity separated by continents formed social rules to live by, what is a good or bad thing, how come BASIC guide lines are so much alike------ Do unto others as one wished to be treated, to the Kama idea of what goes around comes back to you. The theme is the same in all faiths, give an offering to the GODS, love them and be respectfull of them.
So much alike? Well, in some basic things, as CS Lewis pointed out...no culture respects cowardice, for example, but the religion and caste system of the Hindus bears very little resemblance to the monotheistic relationship of God's religion. But of course, taking our oldest recorded histories into full account, the entire population of the world today arose from Noah and his family, so the basic ideas of right and wrong, along with much of the basic knowledge of what denotes a true god, were known to all at one time. It's only when adults have neglected to properly educate their children (as our country is currently neglecting to do so) that basic knowledge like this becomes lost.
Then I have a question that no Christian faith has ever been able to answer. Why did Jesus need to be baptised by John the Baptist? Who was this John and why was he, a cousin of Jesus, doing this rite in the first place?
Jesus was baptised by John as a mark of His faith, just as we are baptised today. It does not wash away sin, but it does mark our intention to, or our action of, repent(ing). There are quite a number of prophesies that were fulfilled by the baptism of Christ by John, a sufficient reason for the act if you ignore any other.
What and why did these Jews decide that symbolically they could wash away their sin in a river before Jesus died?
Before Jesus died, Jewish sin was covered by sacrifice. However, the original covenant with Abraham was through faith, just as the New Covenant with Christ. Baptism is a symbol of that faith, of obedience, so does not "wash away" sin, it is just a demonstration of the faith.
The Vatican we know has many more books that are unreleased to the public, darn I would love to see all the chapters the world knows nothing about. In fact I have never read the Catholic Bible that has an extra chapter that the King James left out.
I'm sure you can find all kinds of other books in any library. The problem isn't that some were left out of the Bible, the problem is that even in Jesus day, men wrote down lies and heresies. What's the point of studying something that is not true?
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There are more complete and partial copies of the Bible than of all other ancient writings together.
I won't start a urinating contest over the rest of your post, however the comment quoted above simply is NOT true.........
There are millions of complete and fragmentary texts dating from periods before and up to the Bible from cultures all over the world, biblical texts ARE numerous, but hardly predominant.
In fact, there are more fragmentary texts from the Egyptian "Middle Kingdom" period than biblical texts dating from 300 AD backward.
doc
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I won't start a urinating contest over the rest of your post, however the comment quoted above simply is NOT true.........
There are millions of complete and fragmentary texts dating from periods before and up to the Bible from cultures all over the world, biblical texts ARE numerous, but hardly predominant.
In fact, there are more fragmentary texts from the Egyptian "Middle Kingdom" period than biblical texts dating from 300 AD backward.
doc
I'm not going to take the time to look the fact up again, I may have remembered it incorrectly. Perhaps it was that there are more full and partial copies of the Bible than of any other ancient or near ancient text...rather than of all ancient texts together.
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I'm not going to take the time to look the fact up again, I may have remembered it incorrectly. Perhaps it was that there are more full and partial copies of the Bible than of any other ancient or near ancient text...rather than of all ancient texts together.
I'd probably buy that.......
doc
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Culture my dear Mr. Bunny, all comes down to culture.
Raise children in a closed society where everyone follows the same rites and customs and for generations the people believe what that they do is normal for them, be it eating the brains of a dead Grandpa to shrinking the heads of the enemy -----Nothing wrong with this, they consider outsiders to be evil, The idea of drinking the blood and eating the flesh of their GOD is unacceptable for them.
Culture causes more problems then Hate of an enemy, actually it leads to the very Hate and fear as it becomes a matter of survival of the very culture people are raised in.
Differences in moral structure across history and across cultures are grossly overstated by people who like to believe or argue that morality is subjective. Compare Myan law with the Code of Hammurabi or the Old Testament or ancient Chinese law and you'll find more broad similarities than differences. Crime was punished, and similar acts were crimes (theft, murder, disrespect to a diety, etc.). Extent of punishment might vary, but there's a base set of morals that almost universally appear in every single culture's laws. They're required in order for a society to function and thrive, and those laws are required whether the people subject to them like it or not. When a society disregards these basic moral laws on a large scale, the society fails, every time. They are very much like the laws of physics or economics.
To relate it back to the OP, I have no problems with the possibility of aliens. It doesn't threaten my belief in God in the slightest. I firmly believe that if they do exist, that at a high enough intellect, they will have discovered (not invented) these same moral laws. To me, it's a sign that the universe's cause is moral in nature (i.e. God).
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Differences in moral structure across history and across cultures are grossly overstated by people who like to believe or argue that morality is subjective. Compare Myan law with the Code of Hammurabi or the Old Testament or ancient Chinese law and you'll find more broad similarities than differences. Crime was punished, and similar acts were crimes (theft, murder, disrespect to a diety, etc.). Extent of punishment might vary, but there's a base set of morals that almost universally appear in every single culture's laws. They're required in order for a society to function and thrive, and those laws are required whether the people subject to them like it or not. When a society disregards these basic moral laws on a large scale, the society fails, every time. They are very much like the laws of physics or economics.
To relate it back to the OP, I have no problems with the possibility of aliens. It doesn't threaten my belief in God in the slightest. I firmly believe that if they do exist, that at a high enough intellect, they will have discovered (not invented) these same moral laws. To me, it's a sign that the universe's cause is moral in nature (i.e. God).
I agree in part with your post, however why is it that the society's that are Pacific's, gentel and refuse to become war like are the first to die out.????
We have a moral code that does not seem to last long when we are threatened, feel envy or greed. Our Planet gives lip service to the morality we receive from our cultures, this is all so fast to change in a heart beat when threatened.
In war time we Americans despised the conscious objectors, call them cowards and worse. We as a civilization must protect ourselves, or humanity and culture. Those that refuse to die for the culture are harshly treated.
So why believe some other culture from off planet, is smarter then we, has anything to benefit us, could it not be these what ever, non human view us anything but as we view the Apes with 98% of the same chromosomes as us???
Off Earth there are no humans, we would like to believe this, but Earth is special, Aliens are just that, non humans. Alien life form can go to a dust particle that floats down to infect us, for good or bad.
HOW CAN WE HUMANS THAT STILL DO NOT KNOW EARTH THAT WELL OR OUR OWN BODYS EVEN THINK WE CAN UNDERSTAND OTHER PLANETS OR SOME LIFE FORCE THAT COMES FROM THEM???
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Would you stay on topic, PLEASE.
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Vesta,
See the other thread where I'll answer your questions.
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sorry but i just found this and it totally fits in this thread
its from socialfacepalm where they post funny stuff form the internet/social media/communications
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v230/sadiesinner/forums/fdad68b2.jpg)