The Conservative Cave
Current Events => The DUmpster => Topic started by: Freeper on June 26, 2011, 11:40:48 AM
-
Dreamer Tatum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Journal Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list Click to add this author to your Ignore list Sun Jun-26-11 11:34 AM
Original message
Chevy Volt arithmetic - why I won't be buying one
I drive an SUV (don't worry - Gaia was my co-signer) that is paid off, free and clear. It is worth aboput $10,000 in resale.
I get about 15mpg.
A Volt costs $40,000 (I will use round numbers). Let us assume the net asset cost of a Volt to me is $30,000. I will need
to find $30,000 in fuel cost savings on a net present value basis to justify buying a Volt. This assumes that I don't
finance the vehicle, ie, I have $30K in cash just laying around.
Let us suppose for exposition that the Volt gets 60mpg of actual gas purchased (it runs on gas and electricity). Gas is $4/gal,
and I drive 15,000 miles per year.
I use 1,000 gallons of gas per year at an expense of $4,000; with a Volt I would use 250 gallons and spend $1,000. That's an
annual gas expense savings of $3,000.
Assuming that the electricity to feed the car is free to me (a horrible assumption), and there is
no time value of money, it would take 10 years to recoup the expense of the vehicle relative to the one I currently own.
In that 10 years, the battery will likely need to be replaced at least once, the expense of which I will call a wash due
to likely upkeep expense for my current vehicle.
The more likely scenario is that I finance the vehicle, and electricity is nowhere near free, both of which imply that the
real time to recoup the expense is more like 12-15 years.
Not worth it.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=439x1365916
KittyWampus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Journal Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list Click to add this author to your Ignore list Sun Jun-26-11 11:49 AM
Response to Original message
6. Not worth it- until climate volatility shreds your house by tornado, flood, hurricane and/or leaves
you and the rest of us competing for what's left of the petroleum and diminished crop yields.
Printer Friendly | Permalink | Reply | Top
Dreamer Tatum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Journal Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list Click to add this author to your Ignore list Sun Jun-26-11 12:18 PM
Response to Reply #6
22. Yeah, I saw that in Chevy's marketing material.
"Buy this car OR YOU WILL DIE."
:eyes:
Dreamer Tatum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Journal Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list Click to add this author to your Ignore list Sun Jun-26-11 12:22 PM
Response to Reply #11
28. My car was made in America.
I don't owe American autoworkers JACK ****ING SHIT - I don't make purchasing decisions based on the wants of the people who make whatever
it is.
And as for the environment...what went into the electricity production? Do you know what metals are mined to make those batteries, and how
they're mined?
:lmao: :lmao: :lmao: :lmao:
-
DT is having waaaaay too many lucid thoughts to survive in DUmmieLand.
-
Motown_Johnny (1000+ posts) Sun Jun-26-11 12:28 PM
Response to Reply #1
36. keep an eye on compressed air vehicles too (no battery worries)
The other day a DUmmy, maybe this one, was all excited about development of a free, unlimited energy source: compressed air.
-
The other day a DUmmy, maybe this one, was all excited about development of a free, unlimited energy source: compressed air.
Cheetos to create the Cheeto farts the DUmmy speaks of are not free.
-
The other day a DUmmy, maybe this one, was all excited about development of a free, unlimited energy source: compressed air.
Switcher locomotives were built (Using steam engine running gear) that used this method back in the pre-WW2 era for specialized applications where sparks could not be tolerated and large amounts of compressed air were available due to the industrial processes being used, some types of mining for instance. Useful for limited industrial applications within a site, not for transportation between separate locations.
-
I don't see anyway they could really disagree with the OP. The Volt is simply not worth it.
-
I don't see anyway they could really disagree with the OP. The Volt is simply not worth it.
Same as Prius. A handful of DUmmies are paying an enormous premium in money and convenience to make a political statement.
-
Same as Prius. A handful of DUmmies are paying an enormous premium in money and convenience to make a political statement.
Yep, or any current hybrid/battery powered car. We all know the dummies want us driving G-Wizes though...it's only a matter of time before they start pushing them. (At us and when the battery goes dead)
(http://www.carpages.co.uk/news/news-images/gwiz_15_04_05.JPG)
-
Yep, or any current hybrid/battery powered car. We all know the dummies want us driving G-Wizes though...it's only a matter of time before they start pushing them. (At us and when the battery goes dead)
(http://www.carpages.co.uk/news/news-images/gwiz_15_04_05.JPG)
I think an E-Z-Go makes a lot more sense. And when my trip is finished, I just park it outside the pro shop.
-
The other day a DUmmy, maybe this one, was all excited about development of a free, unlimited energy source: compressed air.
Actually, I can see some viability in compressed air, but it'll have to be coupled with an internal combustion engine. Most of your gas consumption is due to acceleration. If there was a way to compress air by normal driving, and, after stopping and then starting back, the saved compressed air kicks in and essentially launches you to the point where the gas engine kicks in, it would, IMO save a ton on gas.
One main drawback I could see is the maintenance. I had this conversation with one of my co-workers, a retired USN LtCDR Brownshoe who said it's very costly to maintain. Don't know all the details, was just thinking about it one day. Of course, I didn't think of this in some grand scheme to save a planet we're supposedly destroying :whatever: but out of selfish financial reasons.
-
Actually, I can see some viability in compressed air, but it'll have to be coupled with an internal combustion engine. Most of your gas consumption is due to acceleration. If there was a way to compress air by normal driving, and, after stopping and then starting back, the saved compressed air kicks in and essentially launches you to the point where the gas engine kicks in, it would, IMO save a ton on gas.
One main drawback I could see is the maintenance. I had this conversation with one of my co-workers, a retired USN LtCDR Brownshoe who said it's very costly to maintain. Don't know all the details, was just thinking about it one day. Of course, I didn't think of this in some grand scheme to save a planet we're supposedly destroying :whatever: but out of selfish financial reasons.
I just recall from years ago seeing an accounting of costs for a manufacturing plant, and compressed air was a very expensive utility. Air compressors soak up a lot of power, and their storage and distribution systems leak and take a lot of maintenance.
-
I just recall from years ago seeing an accounting of costs for a manufacturing plant, and compressed air was a very expensive utility. Air compressors soak up a lot of power, and their storage and distribution systems leak and take a lot of maintenance.
Yeah, the leaking issue was one my co-worker said was a concern. Not to mention the air has to be extremely compressed to launch a 4K pound vehicle.
-
Frankly, I'd love to see a DUmmie turning a wrench on the fitting of a 4500# air system and watch the damn thing let go.
Pure comedy gold.
-
Those pesky laws of Physics will get them every time:
Fuel GGE BTU/unit kWh/Unit
Gasoline (base) 114,000 BTU/gal 33.41
Gasoline (conventional, summer) 114,500 BTU/gal 33.56
Gasoline (conventional, winter) 112,500 BTU/gal 32.97
Gasoline (reformulated gasoline, ethanol 111,836 BTU/gal 32.78
Gasoline (reformulated gasoline, ETBE) 111,811 BTU/gal 32.77
Gasoline (reformulated gasoline, MTBE) 111,745 BTU/gal 32.75
Gasoline (10% MBTE) 112,000 BTU/gal 32.83
Gasoline (regular unleaded) 114,100 BTU/gal 33.44
Diesel #2 129,500 BTU/gal 37.95
Biodiesel (B100) 118,300 BTU/gal
Bio Diesel (B20) 127,250 BTU/gal
Liquid natural gas (LNG) 75,000 BTU/gal
Compressed natural gas (CNG) 900 BTU/cu ft
Hydrogen at 101.325 kPa 319 BTU/cu ft]
Hydrogen by weight 51,500 BTU/lb)
Liquefied petroleum gas(propane) (LPG) 84,300 BTU/gal
Methanol fuel (M100) 56,800 BTU/gal
Ethanol fuel (E100) 76,100 BTU/gal
Ethanol (E85) 81,800 BTU/gal
Jet fuel (naphtha) 118,700 BTU/gal
Jet fuel (kerosene) 128,100 BTU/gal
Electricity 33.40 kilowatt-hours * 3,413 BTU/(kW·h)
It requires (one gallon), 114,000 BTU to move an average 3,000 pound vehicle for a distance of 25 miles........anyone can do the math to see how "alternative" fuels compare.
It's worth noting that the Chevrolet Volt's battery assembly has a capacity of 23 KW/h........or roughly 2/3rds the energy capacity of one gallon of gasoline.........
doc
-
This reminds me, I have always wanted to do the fire extinguisher and skateboard stunt.
-
Frankly, I'd love to see a DUmmie turning a wrench on the fitting of a 4500# air system and watch the damn thing let go.
Pure comedy gold.
Compressed air is like a bomb. Many people have been killed, literally decapitated, trying to mount a 14" tire on a 14.5" rim, at under 100 psi. The tire cannot seat, the bead will fail, and the force of the explosion is amazing. Surprisingly, if a passenger tire is properly mounted, it will not normally fail until pressure exceeds 200 psi. (The testing is always done with water, not air, so there's no explosion.)
-
If the tards on the island want a truly green car maybe they could go with something like this RECYCLED 1986 Buick~
[youtube=425,350]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pSwig1tgUtY[/youtube]
-
If the tards on the island want a truly green car maybe they could go with something like this RECYCLED 1986 Buick~
I hope it's the hobo! I'm really afraid the freepers have killed her. If they can reach into the wilds of northeastern Oklahoma, they can certainly show up in urban Colorado.
-
Compressed air car sounds like a winner to me...in fact, I want to be a salemen for them. I'll promise the DUmmies there first tank of air and a free bicycle pump with each purchase....it'll be years before they can pump up enough air pressure to come back and complain. :-)
-
Same as Prius. A handful of DUmmies are paying an enormous premium in money and convenience to make a political statement.
Annie sold her Accord and bought a Prius. Last I heard, Pam still owns her Jeep Cherokee.
-
This reminds me, I have always wanted to do the fire extinguisher and skateboard stunt.
It's not very safe. The coyote died.
-
It's not very safe. The coyote died.
He wasn't using a fire extinguisher. Just stay away from Acme Rocket Skates.
-
He wasn't using a fire extinguisher. Just stay away from Acme Rocket Skates.
Actually, anything with the Acme brand name . . . :lmao: :rotf:
-
Actually, anything with the Acme brand name . . . :lmao: :rotf:
But especially the skates.
http://iowahawk.typepad.com/iowahawk/2004/09/rather_blames_r.html
-
But especially the skates.
http://iowahawk.typepad.com/iowahawk/2004/09/rather_blames_r.html
Too funny.
-
I am not into physics or all that smart but there are two major problems with compressed air except for perhaps as DAT mentioned,tapping already available resources.
The first would be the economics of it...compressing air is all about resistance.
You are literally putting 50 lbs of crap into a 5 lb bag and that takes a lot of effort to achieve.
The second problem I see is heat.
Compressing air makes the molecules collide and the friction creates a large amount of heat,it is what allows a diesel engine to run without an external means of igniting the fuel.
The sizable storage tanks (really another problem as now you are adding weight) and plumbing from the compressor would be hot enough to set the vehicle on fire I would think.
Correct me if I am wrong.
-
Great thread! It's amazing (yet completely unsurprising) how many of the primitives don't have a clue as to how and properly evaluate a financial decision. The primitives Motown_Johnny, KittyWampus, bluestate10, lumberjack_jeff, madinmaryland, and several others clearly demonstrate why they live from hand-to-mouth, with the likelyhood of that ever changing for them being improbable.
.
-
I am not into physics or all that smart
See. You should have paid attention in class, like nadinbrzhzhzhzhski.
-
I am not into physics or all that smart but there are two major problems with compressed air except for perhaps as DAT mentioned,tapping already available resources.
The first would be the economics of it...compressing air is all about resistance.
You are literally putting 50 lbs of crap into a 5 lb bag and that takes a lot of effort to achieve.
The second problem I see is heat.
Compressing air makes the molecules collide and the friction creates a large amount of heat,it is what allows a diesel engine to run without an external means of igniting the fuel.
The sizable storage tanks (really another problem as now you are adding weight) and plumbing from the compressor would be hot enough to set the vehicle on fire I would think.
Correct me if I am wrong.
Actually, all the discussion about "alternative energy", etc. is just a bunch of compressed air (to coin a phrase).......
The entire issue of total transportation fuel efficiency boils down to one simple concept:
"Energy budget".....is the technical term, translated it simply means that you need a fuel that:
provides more energy in its usage than it consumes to create.........
Simple concept........and there is only one viable option that meets this criteria at present technology levels........petroleum
Why, many would ask is petroleum the only economical motor fuel, with a positive energy budget? Also simple, because nature has done nearly all of the work, and expended the energy to produce it.
Scientifically, the discussion is over. the only thing remaining to talk about is how much of the taxpayers hard-earned money is the government willing to squander to make these "alternatives" look like they are competitive, when they really never will be.
doc
-
I had to plug my car into the OP's estimates just to see. I know it's not of much value to anyone but me however, I thought I'd post it.
I drive a small car that is paid off, free and clear. It is worth about $4500 in resale.
I get about 50mpg.
A Volt costs $40,000 (I will use round numbers). Let us assume the net asset cost of a Volt to me is $35,500. I will need
to find $35,500 in fuel cost savings on a net present value basis to justify buying a Volt. This assumes that I don't
finance the vehicle, ie, I have $35K in cash just laying around.
Let us suppose for exposition that the Volt gets 60mpg of actual gas purchased (it runs on gas and electricity). Gas is $5/gal (Canada),
and I drive 25,000 miles per year.
I use 500 gallons of gas per year at an expense of $2,500; with a Volt I would use 416 gallons and spend $2080. That's an
annual gas expense savings of $420.
Assuming that the electricity to feed the car is free to me (a horrible assumption), and there is
no time value of money, it would take 84.5 years to recoup the expense of the vehicle relative to the one I currently own.
Not worth it.
-
The other day a DUmmy, maybe this one, was all excited about development of a free, unlimited energy source: compressed air.
This will NEVER work. How the hell the DUmmies (ya, I know) think it's free, is beyond me.
Think about this, DUmmies, it takes approx 70-80 CFM @ 100 PSI to run a 4.5 H.P air motor. That turns into a compressor requirement of roughly 25 HP that has to be run by something. WTF do you think that would be?
So multiply that by 10 to get a mediocre amount of power...........................uh-oh.............
Every time I think they can't get any DUmmber ( :P ) they don't disappoint.
-
I have read that the Prius battery pack cost around $2,500. After 7 or 8 years, the value of that vehicle will drop like a rock. However, the Volt's battery pack cost $10,000. GM is not mass producing these suckers in large numbers because of the battery cost. The Volt will turn out to be a lemon and albatross around GM's neck. It will be as big a failure as the Caddy diesel was.
-
I am not into physics or all that smart but there are two major problems with compressed air except for perhaps as DAT mentioned,tapping already available resources.
The first would be the economics of it...compressing air is all about resistance.
You are literally putting 50 lbs of crap into a 5 lb bag and that takes a lot of effort to achieve.
The second problem I see is heat.
Compressing air makes the molecules collide and the friction creates a large amount of heat,it is what allows a diesel engine to run without an external means of igniting the fuel.
The sizable storage tanks (really another problem as now you are adding weight) and plumbing from the compressor would be hot enough to set the vehicle on fire I would think.
Correct me if I am wrong.
Well, the heat isn't really the limiting factor, but it does come into play. Onboard compression isn't normally a part of the powerplant on an air engined vehicle, they just use stored air which they have to refill fairly frequentsly.
Compression does produce a lot of heat, but mainly it's dealt with by adding mass to the compressor to dissipate it. Adding a big chunk of cast steel for an onboard compressor to a flyweight car kind of defeats the whole purpose, especially if you also have a big-ass air tank sturdy enough to keep a useful amount of air on tap at 25-30 atmospheres in there too. And as others have noted, the horrifying lack of efficiency in compressing the air and then using it to drive an air motor makes onboard compression a nonstarter. Compression is noisy as all Hell on top of that, which would be another major problem with having it onboard.
-
A compressed-air car would be an expensive piece of shit, but you could drive nails like crazy.
-
The second problem I see is heat.
Compressing air makes the molecules collide and the friction creates a large amount of heat,it
Yup. Normal output temp for a piston compressor is around 400+ degrees without an aftercooler. A rotary is lower, but still in the 250+ range. (I designed and installed the compressed air system in our 100,000 square foot factory, we use a 100 HP rotary machine capable of 450 CFM)
-
I've heard a compressor rule of thumb that they cost about $1 per day per horsepower to run.
-
Not only does the air heat up (Heat of Compression) it also gets very wet. That is why systems over 25HP usually have both an after cooler and dryer past the compressor. Water and the corresponding rust is the main cause of tank problems. Right now in kalifornia a propane tank that has no where near the level of moisture has to be traded in every seven years. This is regardless of condition. The tanks in cars would be at much higher pressure (around 4500 PSIG) like dive tanks. They are heavy and if in an accident would be a great missile shooting out a pile up.
As mentioned above, every time you convert a source, you lose energy (entropy, it's a bitch).
It does amuse me to see DUmmys that can barely figure out how velcro works looking into the complexities of energy transfer.
The prius batteries go for about 25k and the replacement cost (2008) was just over $8k. The lithium-ion battery lpant in Canada is so horrendous to the environment that NASA tests the robotic vehicles there.
-
I've heard a compressor rule of thumb that they cost about $1 per day per horsepower to run.
Well, that shoots my suggestion down.
Next suggestion, burn liberals for fuel.
-
Next suggestion, burn liberals for fuel.
Environmental impact statement, Reb . . . :argh:
-
I'm waiting for the SSP technology to be used in our vehicles.
[youtube=425,350]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WZKmoicYhNo&feature=related[/youtube]
-
(http://activerain.com/image_store/uploads/9/9/8/1/9/ar121502789291899.jpg)
That's what they truly want us in.
-
A compressed-air car would be an expensive piece of shit, but you could drive nails like crazy.
What would happen if it were T-bone by a truck and ruptured the holding tank?
-
What would happen if it were T-bone by a truck and ruptured the holding tank?
You'd be like Alice Kramden, en route to the moon. Bang! Zoom!
-
You'd be like Alice Kramden, en route to the moon. Bang! Zoom!
Yeah, you get to find out how it feels to go really, really fast in a 'Green' car. Briefly.
-
Yeah, you get to find out how it feels to go really, really fast in a 'Green' car. Briefly.
Yeah; VERY briefly. I'd lay odds the (crash test) DUmmies can't take more than about 4 Gs of acceleration before they black out.
-
Environmental impact statement, Reb . . . :argh:
I could give a rat's ass about "environmental impact". These dumbass liberals don't seem to understand that that CO2 is what's preventing our planet from becoming an icy ball of dirt.
-
I could give a rat's ass about "environmental impact". These dumbass liberals don't seem to understand that that CO2 is what's preventing our planet from becoming an icy ball of dirt.
I know that, and I really don't give a ****, flying or grounded, about it either. Just a splash of sarcasm, that's all.
-
I know that, and I really don't give a ****, flying or grounded, about it either. Just a splash of sarcasm, that's all.
I know, man. That would be my response to those morons.