The Conservative Cave
Interests => Religious Discussions => Topic started by: Habsfan on June 09, 2011, 07:43:28 PM
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Ephesians 2:8-10 (Saved by Grace)
For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast.
Rev 20:13-15 (Saved by works)
The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what he had done. Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. If anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
Are we saved by Grace or works?
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The Revelations passage is the judgment of the damned. None of them will be saved. Theory is that the degree of eternal punishment is in question; the most famous literary exposition of this theory is Dante's Inferno, wherein the "merely" damned are just unhappy, and the horribly wicked undergo severe tortures.
Similarly, some believe that the saved-- by Grace, btw-- are similarly judged; that the just-barely-saved (deathbed conversions, or those who did no good works in life (see Eph 2:10) will get into Heaven, and be not at all unhappy, while those who did their best for God wll have a better position in Heaven, greater access to the Throne, etc.
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The original covenant with Abraham was through faith. The covenant with the Children of Israel wasn't really work based because all salvation comes from God, not from men's actions...but it certainly had a lot of requirements. The New Covenant with Christ is based on the foundation of the covenant with Abraham, and wholly based on faith and faith alone. All the work is done by Jesus.
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The way I see it, my salvation is a train, supported by the rails of grace and works. Remove one, and the train becomes derailed.
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By grace, and grace alone of course, but doing good works is intended to help make us better people in this time and place.
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You silly Americans.
You're always thinking about "how".
That isn't an indictment, merely an observation. American society, its language and thought patterns are those of inventors, engineers and actuaries.
You're thinking mechanically when surveying a text where no two healings followed the exact same pattern.
You're thinking from a foundation of form-fitting-function when the inverse will shed far more light.
Don't ask "how are people saved?"
Ask "why?"
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You silly Americans.
You're always thinking about "how".
That isn't an indictment, merely an observation. American society, its language and thought patterns are those of inventors, engineers and actuaries.
You're thinking mechanically when surveying a text where no two healings followed the exact same pattern.
You're thinking from a foundation of form-fitting-function when the inverse will shed far more light.
Don't ask "how are people saved?"
Ask "why?"
Good point. People are definitely not worthy of salvation, no one is sinless except Christ. Thank God that He is a merciful, loving and tolerant (in the true definition of the word) God!!
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Faith, without works, rings hollow.
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Faith, without works, rings hollow.
Oh so true Dutch, now lets step this up a notch.
What about faith and doing misguided bad works.====Those that believe they are doing work for the Lord and bomb an Abortion Clinic or kill a abortion doctor to save the lives and souls of the unborn.
Seems to me that a great deal of Evil can come out of works that humans do to please God.
Our prisons are full of people that truly have faith, repent for their past sins, our hospitals have humans so mentally ill they cannot grasp the concept of sin or forgiveness from God.
Then there is the old bugaboo of why people do good works in the first place. Is this a bribe to have God over look their sins, Is their sacrifice for those in need simply because they need help or because it makes the do- good feel better about themself??? Boost their own openion of themselves and enjoy the accolade's for their good work???
Humans are complicated, the belief in God seems to be built into our DNA, as they say, there are no Atheists in a fox hole.