The Conservative Cave
Current Events => The DUmpster => Topic started by: thundley4 on June 01, 2011, 12:21:12 PM
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Playinghardball (575 posts) Wed Jun-01-11 11:52 AM
Original message
Budget cuts force Calif. police and firemen to watch man drown
Source: RawReplay
By Stephen C. Webster
Police and firemen in Alameda, California watched a man drown on Monday after realizing they did not have proper certifications for water rescue, leaving them open to possible lawsuits if they attempted a rescue.
The drowning victim, 53-year-old Raymond Zack, was apparently suicidal, according to a report from the scene. He waded out about 150 yards into cold waters off Crown Beach in Alameda and began took about an hour to drown himself.
A crowd of about 75 gathered to watch the bizarre scene, which saw police and firemen just standing at shoreline watching helplessly. After the man had drowned, authorities couldn’t even go into the surf to retrieve the body. They instead recruited a passer-by for the job.
City officials reportedly blamed the incident on budget cuts and said they would have a discussion about why Alameda, an island city, does not have proper authorization to rescue people from the waters surrounding it.
This video is from ABC 7 in San Francisco, Calif., broadcast May 30, 2011
http://www.rawstory.com/rawreplay/2011/06/calif-police-...
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=439x1208616
Bonhomme Richard (1000+ posts) Wed Jun-01-11 12:00 PM
Response to Original message
1. What have we become that people are afraid to do the right thing?
Edited on Wed Jun-01-11 12:01 PM by Bonhomme Richard
We are reverting to pure animals whose only instinct is for survival.
Another thought. What kind of horses ass even thinks to ask the question"are we allowed to save that guy"?
Union members who refuse to perform work outside their scope of employment/training.
Parker CA (1000+ posts) Wed Jun-01-11 12:05 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. Terribly f-ed up situation. Hard to imagine anyone not jumping in to save that man, but those
standing on the shore may have been thinking that had they entered the water they would lose their job and perhaps only income source. Beyond tragic when financial cuts cause people to make decisions that cost people their lives.
tularetom (1000+ posts) Wed Jun-01-11 12:16 PM
Response to Original message
3. Budget cuts didn't force them to watch the guy drown
If that's what they're claiming they should be fired. There are plenty of people who would do their jobs for a lot less than they are being paid and would go into the water and attempt to rescue him.
Fear of lawsuits? That's bullshit too. Nobody would ever attempt to rescue anybody if they worried about litigation all the time.
This story is just mind boggling to me.
nichomachus (1000+ posts) Wed Jun-01-11 01:11 PM
Response to Original message
8. Public safety is already starting to break down -- thanks to the GOP
It will get worse -- much worse.
Already in CA you have communities shutting down their police departments. Pretty soon, the only ones who will have safety services will be those who can afford to buy their own.
The GOP is such a strong force in California.
There is another thread on this. http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=439x1208952
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Parker CA (1000+ posts) Wed Jun-01-11 12:05 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. Terribly f-ed up situation. Hard to imagine anyone not jumping in to save that man, but those
standing on the shore may have been thinking that had they entered the water they would lose their job and perhaps only income source. Beyond tragic when financial cuts cause people to make decisions that cost people their lives.
No, DUmb****s think that. Any decent person would jump in to save a life and think about the consequences later. I swam out after a distressed and nearly drowning person off the coast of Hilton Head when I was in reclassing at Ft. Gordon. I didn't notice the lifeguard to my left until I almost reached the person. I'm DEATHLY afraid of the unknown that could be lurking underneath, like a White or Tiger Shark. I didn't think about that until later. It's called "fight or flight" when your adrenaline increases and forces you to act. Most men have this. Hell, most women have this. You damn PUSSIES, however, are apparently lacking in that department. :bird:
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nichomachus (1000+ posts) Wed Jun-01-11 01:11 PM
Response to Original message
8. Public safety is already starting to break down -- thanks to the GOP
Yeah, because the Republicans own all branches of legislation in Cali****istan.
:whatever:
You should have to be obama's personal umbrella stand for a statement that stupid.
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Bonhomme Richard (1000+ posts) Wed Jun-01-11 12:00 PM
Response to Original message
1. What have we become that people are afraid to do the right thing?
We are reverting to pure animals whose only instinct is for survival.
Another thought. What kind of horses ass even thinks to ask the question"are we allowed to save that guy"?
Actually animals do whatever is required to save themselves and their own. They don't think about laws, rules, policies, lawsuits, union breaks or procedure; they simply act.
We're worse than animals...we're civilized.
tularetom (1000+ posts) Wed Jun-01-11 12:16 PM
Response to Original message
3. Budget cuts didn't force them to watch the guy drown
If that's what they're claiming they should be fired. There are plenty of people who would do their jobs for a lot less than they are being paid and would go into the water and attempt to rescue him.
Fear of lawsuits? That's bullshit too. Nobody would ever attempt to rescue anybody if they worried about litigation all the time.
This story is just mind boggling to me,
ahem!
From December of 2008:
The next time you see somebody needing to be rescued, you'd be better off to just ignore them and do nothing. At least that's the interpretation of a California Supreme Court decision that has allowed a lawsuit to move forward between a woman who was in a car wreck and her friend who pulled her out of the wreckage.
The woman claims her friend "carelessly" pulled her out of the wrecked car, contributing to her injuries. Inexplicably, the California Supreme Court agreed, saying that Good Samaritans have a legal responsibility to offer some sort of medical care, even if they have no training in emergency medicine.
Doing nothing, of course, lets you off the hook. And so by rendering this decision, the California Supreme Court has just doomed the lives of countless future crash victims and burn victims who will now be left to die as Good Samaritans watch from the sidelines, too afraid to save somebody's life if they know they can be sued for millions of dollars for doing so.
Learn more: http://www.naturalnews.com/News_000628_injuries_California_Good_Samaritan.html#ixzz1O38n9T00
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So because of a govt policy they let this man drown.
And DUmmies wonder why we aren't supportive of big govt.
Safetykitten (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list Click to add this author to your Ignore list Wed Jun-01-11 01:35 PM
Response to Original message
10. After watching the video, all I can say is this.
The police and firemen are cowards. They have some ax to grind over their cuts. They wanted to prove a point.
The people standing by are subhuman. They should drop out of the human species and do us all some good.
I was imagining a rough surf, and difficult conditions, not some rather idyllic beach on a bay.
The only person with courage and grace is the young woman who got the body out of the water.
I would of told them **** you and went in, as would many others here.
Look for Fox and it's minions to have a field day.
So you are complaining because they are using union tactics?
I thought unions were wonderful.
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If they aren't going to actually do anything, there really isn't any point in keeping any of their overpaid asses on the payroll at all. It seems like there is a subtext to the story about stifling regulations (Very Californianesque) more than this being just another useless-bunch-of-union-slugs problem, though.
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So the core of the democrat party, unions and trial lawyers, caused the death of this man.
I know it gets posted often but IMHO very apropos.
"Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery."
Winston Churchill
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The "Volunteer Fire Department" has a very large presence down in the South and are very proficient. I'm thinking these don't work well in those Utopian liberal paradises.
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"Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery."
Winston Churchill
Awesome!
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Well if you told me you were drowning
I would not lend a hand
I just don't have the paperwork, permits..
And my union, it just blames 'Da Man'
Well I stood there and then I watched you die
I saw it with my own two eyes
But if I don't get paid,
You don't get saved
Because of Republican lies
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tularetom (1000+ posts) Wed Jun-01-11 12:57 PM
Response to Reply #5
7. They could have waded out there and saved the guy and they just stood there?
What does "too shallow" mean? If the water was chest deep a pretty good sized boat could have reached the guy, if it was more shallow than that they could have easily reached him by walking out to where he was.
And besides the training and maintenance budget would not have to be cut if they weren't paying nearly 6 figure salaries to these prima donnas. I found the MOU between the city of Alameda and the fire fighters union and salaries topped out at $92K annually for entry level fire fighters.
Nobody commented on the comment.
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Let's not forget. A 13 year old boy drowned (http://www.nwcn.com/home/Boy-dies-friends-disgusted-by-slow-response-121535594.html) just last month while "rescue workers" sat on their boats and watched.
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Get used to this DUmmies. Under ObamaCare, this is how the Death Panels will operate. Congrats.
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Anyone who's been in a unionized factory has seen electricians watch a water leak flood the place while they waited for a pipefitter to close the water valve.
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After all, liberals run Commiefornia. How's that working out for ya primitives? After all, liberalism is a mental disorder.
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California is reaping what it has sown.
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It's a BS story.
No man worth his salt would sit bye.
Embellished bouncy.
No bong.
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It's a BS story.
No man worth his salt would sit bye.
I guarantee you, if it's a union issue, they would let him drown.
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I guarantee you, if it's a union issue, they would let him drown.
No.
No man would sit and watch.
I can not believe that.
Union or not. No way.
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No.
No man would sit and watch.
I can not believe that.
Union or not. No way.
This is the second time in two months. I posted a link upthread about a 13 year old boy drowning while rescue workers were on scene.
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Sorry, Thundley.
I just can not believe that.
Maybe I'm normal. Just don't know.
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Sorry, Thundley.
I just can not believe that.
Maybe I'm normal. Just don't know.
Unfortunately, I've been around to see the worst in people, I can believe it.
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It's real:
California man drowns himself in San Francisco Bay while emergency responders stand by and watch
Read more: http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/2011/06/01/2011-06-01_california_man_drowns_himself_in_san_francisco_bay_while_emergency_responders_st.html#ixzz1O5X148qI
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I have too, sir.
Never seen it.
Won't/can't believe it.
I view tales such as this as scare mongering from the left.
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In a union shop, saving a life when it's not in your job description is seen as taking work away from a union brother who is paid to save lives.
You could do the right thing, save a life, and feel good about it, but tomorrow your house might burn down.
There's no place for morality or civilized behavior in a union environment. No one can believe it if they haven't witnessed it.
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My eldest son is an arson investigator.
I find fault.
No man, union or not, will stand by and watch another die due to union regs.
Nope.
Not gonna happen.
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No real man would! This has something to do with the pussifcation of the American male! Makes sense it comes to the surface on the fag infested west coast! I'll tell ya one thing my wife is more of a man than any of those shitbags standing around watching men and boys die! If she were at the scene and saw a human that resembled a male standing there doing nothing she would slap them in the mouth and jump in herself!
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This is the most disgusting thing I have read in a long time -- unbelievable. They should all be fired.
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This is the most disgusting thing I have read in a long time -- unbelievable. They should all be fired.
In any other state, they probably would be, regardless of union rules. Most states have a "Good Samaritan" law that not only holds free from litigation those who offer reasonable help to others in a medical emergency, but also impose a "duty to act" on those who have been trained to do so. As Snugs pointed out, CA's good samaritan law is turned on its head, you're protected only if you do nothing.
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Well if you told me you were drowning
I would not lend a hand
I just don't have the paperwork, permits..
And my union, it just blames 'Da Man'
Well I stood there and then I watched you die
I saw it with my own two eyes
But if I don't get paid,
You don't get saved
Because of Republican lies
I'm gonna have that somg going through my head for the next hour or so, now. H5.
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I'm sorry Skul, but it is very real. Not made up. It was on the news this morning, and there is plenty of public outrage. To the DUmmies credit, they're outraged too. One guy "could understand" it happening, and he was jumped all over. It's a horrifying event, and it should cause some national soul searching, IMO.
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My eldest son is an arson investigator.
I find fault.
No man, union or not, will stand by and watch another die due to union regs.
Nope.
Not gonna happen.
Several cities in California have said that they cannot afford to pay liability insurance for their emergency crews. One small town south of me disbanded their fire department because of it, they are now reliant on the fire departments in surrounding areas. Typical liberal response to budget difficulties, cut the most essential programs first to force funding.
This isn't strictly a union issue. My understanding is that because the firemen did not have the proper training (due to budget cuts that took out the training) they could be held liable if they tried to rescue the man and he was injured in any way. This is the fault of lawsuits run amok.
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Several cities in California have said that they cannot afford to pay liability insurance for their emergency crews. One small town south of me disbanded their fire department because of it, they are now reliant on the fire departments in surrounding areas. Typical liberal response to budget difficulties, cut the most essential programs first to force funding.
This isn't strictly a union issue. My understanding is that because the firemen did not have the proper training (due to budget cuts that took out the training) they could be held liable if they tried to rescue the man and he was injured in any way. This is the fault of lawsuits run amok.
They didn't even recover the body, but left that for a passerby to do.
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They didn't even recover the body, but left that for a passerby to do.
I'm absolutely not defending their actions, and I hope that if I were ever in their situation that I would go in and try to help. I honestly don't know why they wouldn't have gone to at least recover the body.
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Law suit or not, job or not, I could not stand there and do nothing! I just could not! I don't know what it is but I'm the kind of guy who in situations like that just acts without thinking. Is it just me?
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Of course it's not just you!! Everyone I know, and everyone on this board, would jump in without thinking. Absolutely.
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This isn't that hard, really..
1) Get a half dozen guys in the water, to try to talk the victim out.
2) When it doesn't work, a 7th guy shoots the victim with a tranquilizer from the shore.
3) Drag the sleepy yet still alive victim to shore, transport to mental hospital & treat for hypothermia.
Or
1) Get a couple of guys in wetsuits with oxygen tanks to sneak up on the victim, and then drag him in.
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Harder to come up with a better illustration of Democrat/liberal policies in action. People are afraid to help one another because they might get sued into oblivion; the trial lawyers lobby strikes again.
.
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My eldest son is an arson investigator.
I find fault.
No man, union or not, will stand by and watch another die due to union regs.
Nope.
Not gonna happen.
It happened before:
http://www.nwcn.com/home/Boy-dies-friends-disgusted-by-slow-response-121535594.html