The Conservative Cave
Current Events => Politics => Topic started by: thundley4 on May 02, 2011, 11:29:49 AM
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See the top of page 1-4. (http://www.dot.gov/budget/2012/budgetestimates/fhwa.pdf)
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That $20 million that would be earmarked for yet another ****ing federal bureaucracy could be used to repair a few creaky bridges.
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Obama administration floats draft plan to tax cars by the mile
By Pete Kasperowicz - 05/05/11 07:45 AM ET
The Obama administration has floated a transportation authorization bill that would require the study and implementation of a plan to tax automobile drivers based on how many miles they drive.
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Among other things, CBO suggested that a vehicle miles traveled (VMT) tax could be tracked by installing electronic equipment on each car to determine how many miles were driven; payment could take place electronically at filling stations.
http://thehill.com/blogs/floor-action/house/159397-obama-floats-plan-to-tax-cars-by-the-mile
(http://knox.villagesoup.com/media/VillageNetMedia/4/1A/268935/t200-I_Want_Your_Money_UncleSam.jpg.728x520_q85.jpg)
I am so, so, so, soooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo screwed if this ever happens.
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So is e everyone who has lost their job and has taken another job far away from home to survive or people who have to live fairly far from work because their office is in an expensive area. We are already taxed on our gas, this is BS.
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So is e everyone who has lost their job and has taken another job far away from home to survive or people who have to live fairly far from work because their office is in an expensive area. We are already taxed on our gas, this is BS.
No, they're going to get you into electric cars because they have limited range.....and you can't stock pile electricity like you can gas. So then they can not only control how far you can go but when you go. Until then and forever more they're going to track where you go. They can determine if you're involved in clandestine operations, how many envolved, where you meet and how big a threat you are.....tin foil hat is now back in the closet.
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As I've said before a VMT hits me twice as I currently deduct the 25k+ miles I drive every year for work. I would immediately have to get a new job, along with many, many other outside salespeople. This administration is truly trying to destroy our economy. Please God make sure this loser doesn't get reelected.
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I'll just disconnect their tracking device. Suck it, government.
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I'll just disconnect their tracking device. Suck it, government.
The device will be in the computer and if you disable it, the car won't run.
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This is not just a draft. This is a go. This is what they are going to ram through our 'fearless and outspoken' GOP leadership.
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This is a good illustration of the Democrat tendency to tax everything...But I doubt the GOP is stupid enough to pass this legislation.
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This is a good illustration of the Democrat tendency to tax everything...But I doubt the GOP is stupid enough to pass this legislation.
I think you underestimate them. The (current) GOP has been on knee pads for so long, they have become permanently attached Im afraid.
Ive never seen such a group of sun tanned individuals so adamantly capable of snatching defeat from the jaws of victory.
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I'll just disconnect their tracking device. Suck it, government.
then it goes rectally :lol:
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The device will be in the computer and if you disable it, the car won't run.
I have an 11 year old car... want to bet?
The government can easily install these type of tracking devices on brand new cars. My husband is really smart when it comes to wiring cars and electronics in cars. He went to school for it and that's what he does in his career. We could disconnect it and still have our vehicles run.
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They'll just check your odometer when you take your car in for the annual inspection and send you a bill.
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They'll just check your odometer when you take your car in for the annual inspection and send you a bill.
turn it back?
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turn it back?
I use my tachometer, but Ive never tried this:
Detach the cable and use your tachometer. (Just takes a little practice (using the tach) according to me hubby)
:whistling:
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I use my tachometer, but Ive never tried this:
Detach the cable and use your tachometer. (Just takes a little practice (using the tach) according to me hubby)
:whistling:
Drove semi's and my Ford pickup with just a tach for years.
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They'll just check your odometer when you take your car in for the annual inspection and send you a bill.
They could... but my car odometer digital face fades in and out a lot. There is a loose connection somewhere and we just don't feel like fixing it since it doesn't affect the cars performance. If we need to see the mileage, we just tap the screen and it turns on.
Not every state has required inspections though. Unless this bill would force states to hire a whole separate office to do these inspections. Which, of course, would be no shocker at all.
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SEC. 2218. SURFACE TRANSPORTATION REVENUE ALTERNATIVES OFFICE.
(a) ESTABLISHMENT.--The Secretary shall establish within the Federal Highway Administration a Surface Transportation Revenue Alternatives Office to
analyze a range of revenue-generating alternatives that could convey prices to users to reflect system use and other travel externalities while serving as a funding source for surface transportation programs. Undated USDOT draft reauthorization bill Obtained by Transportation Weekly
(b) PURPOSES.--The purposes of the Surface Transportation Revenue Alternatives Office shall be to--
(1) create a study framework that defines the functionality of a mileagebased user fee system and other systems, including those suitable for vehicles
using fuel not taxable under the Internal Revenue Code of 1986;
(2) evaluate system design alternatives for such systems;
(3) conduct field trials to demonstrate and test such systems;
(4) increase public awareness regarding the need for an alternative funding source for surface transportation programs and provide information on possible
approaches; and
(5) provide recommendations regarding adoption and implementation of a mileage-based user fee system or other system.
(c) SURFACE TRANSPORTATION REVENUE ALTERNATIVES POLICY DECISION GROUP.--
(1) IN GENERAL.--Within 1 year of the enactment of this Act, the Surface Transportation Revenue Alternatives Office shall establish and lead a
Surface Transportation Revenue Alternatives Policy Decision Group, hereinafter referred to as "the Group", to inform the selection and evaluation of mileagebased user fee systems.
(2) MEMBERSHIP.--The Group shall consist of public agency representatives as determined by the Secretary, including the Department of
Energy; the Department of the Treasury; the Environmental Protection Agency; other appropriate Federal and State agencies and associations; and public toll authorities.
(3) FUNCTIONS.--Within 2 years of establishment, the Group shall, at a minimum--
(A) create a study framework that defines the functionality of mileage-based user fee systems and other systems, including those
suitable for vehicles using fuel not taxable under the Internal Revenue Code of 1986;
(B) identify systems for field testing and provide objectives to assess technological, administrative, institutional, privacy, and other issues
associated with identified systems;
(C) establish a public awareness communications plan; and
(D) define the system design of alternatives of interest, including consideration of high-level system architectures; interoperability standards
and communication protocols; and equipment standards.
(4) TRANSPARENCY.--
(A) OPEN MEETINGS.--Interested persons shall be permitted to attend meetings of the Group or file statements with the Group, subject to
any reasonable rules or regulations that may be prescribed.
(B) AVAILABILITY OF RECORDS.--The records, reports, transcripts, minutes, appendices, working papers, drafts, studies, agenda, or other documents which are made available to or prepared for or by the Group shall be made available to the public.
(C) LIMITATION.--The requirements of this paragraph shall not apply if the Secretary determines that it is in the public interest that such meeting or information should be closed to the public in order to prevent the disclosure of matters that--
(i) should be kept secret in the interest of national defense or foreign policy;
(ii) are specifically exempted from disclosure by statute;
(iii) involve trade secrets and commercial or financial information that are obtained from a person and are privileged or confidential; or
(iv) would likely frustrate the purposes of the Surface Transportation Revenue Alternatives Office.
(5) APPLICABILITY OF FEDERAL ADVISORY COMMITTEE ACT.--
The Group shall not be subject to the Federal Advisory Committee Act (5 U.S.C. App.).
(d) FIELD TRIALS.--
(1) IN GENERAL.--No later than 4 years after the enactment of this Act, the Surface Transportation Revenue Alternatives Office shall conduct field trials
of mileage-based user fee systems identified by the Group for testing.
(2) CONSIDERATIONS.--The Office shall consider, at a minimum, the following issues in constructing field trials--
(1) capability of States to coordinate administrative and financial functions, including charging out-of-state vehicles and enforcing payment;
(2) reliability of technology over greater distances and terrains;
(3) administrative cost estimates; and
(4) user acceptance.
(3) GROUP.--The Group shall provide recommendations for the field trials.
(4) REVENUE.--Any revenue collected from field trials conducted under this section shall not be deemed to be tolls prohibited under section 301 of title
23, United States Code, if the revenue collected is to be a substitute for, or supplement to, a State fuel tax.
(5) REPORT.--Not later than September 30, 2017, the Surface Transportation Revenue Alternatives Office shall make available a report of its
findings to date in an electronic format accessible to the public.
(e) FUNDING.--
(1) AUTHORIZATION.--The following sums are authorized to be appropriated from the Highway Account of the Transportation Trust Fund to carry
out this section:
(A) $20,000,000 for fiscal year 2012.
(B) $20,000,000 for fiscal year 2013.
(C) $130,000,000 for fiscal year 2014.
(D) $100,000,000 for fiscal year 2015.
(E) $25,000,000 for fiscal year 2016. Undated USDOT draft reauthorization bill Obtained by Transportation Weekly
170
(F) $5,000,000 for fiscal year 2017.
(2) ADMINISTRATIVE EXPENSES.-- Of amounts authorized under paragraph (1), the Secretary may use such sums as necessary for administrative
expenses for implementing the activities described in this section.
(f) APPLICABILITY OF TITLE 23.-- Funds made available to carry out this section shall be available for obligation and administered in the same manner as if such funds were apportioned under chapter 1 of title 23, United States Code; except that such funds shall remain available until expended.
http://thehill.com/images/stories/blogs/flooraction/Jan2011/draftdot.pdf
What private financial records -- for mileage???? What in the hell are they expecting from us to operate a vehicle now?
This just keeps getting worse the deeper you dig.
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I guess these assholes have never heard of the Fourth Amendment.
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Unless you're driving a really old car with an analog electric system, your computer logs the miles whether they show on your dash or not. Of course there is still a physical input that could be disabled at some point, but I expect it also logs engine hours.
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Unless you're driving a really old car with an analog electric system, your computer logs the miles whether they show on your dash or not. Of course there is still a physical input that could be disabled at some point, but I expect it also logs engine hours.
Actually the ECM's (electronic control modules = onboard computers) in a modern car or truck are quite crude by the standards of modern PC technology.......there are usually at least three, one for engine emissions control and timing, mixture, and performance. A second is called the ""body ECM", which controls such items as power window position, electronic wiper, headlight,and climate controls. The third device controls safety systems, like antilock brakes, airbags, electronic stability control, etc.
The engine ECM is the only one that records mileage (or even has an input for mileage) or engine hours, and it is easily reprogrammed with a laptop and a simple software routine that can "flash" the EPROM where such storage occurs, replacing the existant values with anything that you choose. I've done it numerous times on out-of-warranty vehicles to enhance performance and fuel economy, particularly diesels. I've never changed the mileage, but it comes up on the parameters that can be changed every time.
Any "variable recorded input" to a chipset can be changed by the proper access software. All this will do is create another vast "black market" for some enterprising soul to capitalize upon.
Such a proposal has "zero" chance of implementation, the invasive legal issues aside, The technical (and cost) hurdles for the entire US vehicle fleet are immeasurable.
Hell, the US government can't keep wikileaks and other hackers out of the Pentagon, CIA, and NSA computers, how do they possibly think they can prevent tampering with a simple unprotected device like a vehicle ECM.......wishing doesn't make it so.
doc
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Doc, I completely agree, but 'Stroke of the pen/law of the land,' they can just as easily make tampering with the EPROMs a felony, and/or mandate their replacement with non-erasable ROM chips despite the cost and inefficiency (After all, it'll be the car buyers paying for it and 'It's for the greater good'). A few busts and prosecutions on that will intimidate 95% into compliance IF this crazy shit ever gets to become law in the first place.
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Let's forget about our own personal cars for a moment and think of rental cars. If any of you have rented a car at an airport location recently, you will see the ridiculous taxes the companies are forced to make you pay. Here in Las Vegas, we have an airport between 10-12% (maybe more, but cannot recall off the top of my head), CFC tax for 10%, ON TOP of state taxes. If this mileage thing were to pass, the rental companies have no choice but to pass this down to you, the consumer. Now your three day full size rental will equal $300+ instead of just $100. Not including your loss damage waiver or other optional add-ons.
Whatever. I hate this administration.
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Let's forget about our own personal cars for a moment and think of rental cars. If any of you have rented a car at an airport location recently, you will see the ridiculous taxes the companies are forced to make you pay. Here in Las Vegas, we have an airport between 10-12% (maybe more, but cannot recall off the top of my head), CFC tax for 10%, ON TOP of state taxes. If this mileage thing were to pass, the rental companies have no choice but to pass this down to you, the consumer. Now your three day full size rental will equal $300+ instead of just $100. Not including your loss damage waiver or other optional add-ons.
Whatever. I hate this administration.
Not only that, but rental companies are already charging $9/gal of gas for the cars.
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Not only that, but rental companies are already charging $9/gal of gas for the cars.
Yes, but only the stupid people.
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Not only that, but rental companies are already charging $9/gal of gas for the cars.
Yeah, if you don't return the car with a full tank of gas. :rotf:
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Doc, I completely agree, but 'Stroke of the pen/law of the land,' they can just as easily make tampering with the EPROMs a felony, and/or mandate their replacement with non-erasable ROM chips despite the cost and inefficiency (After all, it'll be the car buyers paying for it and 'It's for the greater good'). A few busts and prosecutions on that will intimidate 95% into compliance IF this crazy shit ever gets to become law in the first place.
True to the extent that it can be mandated for newly manufactured vehicles......however, they compromise less than ten percent of the fleet on any average year. The problem gets testy when they attempt to mandate an expensive "tax box" on non-current year units........I suspect that the political cost would be immense for Obama, and then there is his problem convincing Bobo the hobo that she has to pop for $500 to retrofit her 86 Buick.....tough sell......might cost him the "homeless vote". How could his reelection campaign withstand her endless tirades on DU that "Obama hates poor people"?!?
Further, it's already a felony to tamper with the mileage on a vehicle, but it happens all the time, and has been for decades (it's also impossible to prove in court, unless they actually catch someone in the act).......there is an entire industry built around it.
I'm still not buying the viability of this idea.....why not just increase the Federal gasoline tax......same result, zero hardware costs.
doc
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Further, it's already a felony to tamper with the mileage on a vehicle, but it happens all the time, and has been for decades (it's also impossible to prove in court, unless they actually catch someone in the act).......there is an entire industry built around it.
I'm still not buying the viability of this idea.....why not just increase the Federal gasoline tax......same result, zero hardware costs.
People seem to be missing or intentionally ignoring:
“This is not an administration proposal," White House spokeswoman Jennifer Psaki said. "This is not a bill supported by the administration. This was an early working draft proposal that was never formally circulated within the administration, does not taken into account the advice of the president’s senior advisers, economic team or Cabinet officials, and does not represent the views of the president.â€
Vehicle taxation by the mile has been spoken of for years now, with thankfully, no success. As you've mentioned, it would be a significant logistical hurdle. As well as easily bypassed, just as... well... be hesitant, if you're considering the purchase of a lease turn-in vehicle :popcorn:
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I'm still not buying the viability of this idea.....why not just increase the Federal gasoline tax......same result, zero hardware costs.
Awhile back, technology viability studies were performed:
Vehicle Mile Tax Feasibility Study (http://www.oregon.gov/ODOT/HWY/OIPP/docs/OSU_VMT_Final_Report_WEB.pdf?ga=t)
I'm in agreement with you though, on it just being illogical too prefer Vehicle Milage Taxation over raising the Federal Fuel Excise Tax. If additional funding is needed for our highway system.
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Let's forget about our own personal cars for a moment and think of rental cars. If any of you have rented a car at an airport location recently, you will see the ridiculous taxes the companies are forced to make you pay. Here in Las Vegas, we have an airport between 10-12% (maybe more, but cannot recall off the top of my head), CFC tax for 10%, ON TOP of state taxes.
As a Nevada and Vegas resident, I would think you'd be in love with the idea of passing off taxes from your family to us, mere tourists and visitors.
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As a Nevada and Vegas resident, I would think you'd be in love with the idea of passing off taxes from your family to us, mere tourists and visitors.
No, I am not.
Las Vegas residents wouldn't pay for any such VMT on a rental car if it were to pass. That's up to the rental agency to add onto the bill. That has nothing to do with residents at all, unless the locals here rent a car.
If you pass the taxes onto the tourists, less tourists come out to visit. We already have way too few people out here.
Some dummies wanted to open a sports arena and try to get a professional team in Las Vegas. They planned to tack the taxes onto hotel room rates and make the tourists pay for the stadium. Not many residents (including our household) want that sports arena, so that's why these stadium people want to tax the tourists. Why would a tourist who comes here one a year, or maybe only once in a lifetime, want to pay for it? If you have ever been to Las Vegas, you know the resort fee/tax is high enough already. No need to raise it even more.
Most residents of Las Vegas want the tourists to spend less in taxes so they can spend more in the casinos. It helps keep more jobs. We are really hurting in unemployment still.
That's just my two cents.
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Amen. $39/night hotel rooms suddenly become $100-plus when you tack on all the shit on top of it.
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Alternatively, of course, they could slap a 300% surtax on tires. Internal combution, steam, electric, mo-ped - eventually everyone has to replace the tires, and wear on the tires is totally proportional to the vehicle's wear and tear inflicted on the road.
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No, I am not.
Las Vegas residents wouldn't pay for any such VMT on a rental car if it were to pass. That's up to the rental agency to add onto the bill. That has nothing to do with residents at all, unless the locals here rent a car.
If you pass the taxes onto the tourists, less tourists come out to visit. We already have way too few people out here.
Some dummies wanted to open a sports arena and try to get a professional team in Las Vegas. They planned to tack the taxes onto hotel room rates and make the tourists pay for the stadium. Not many residents (including our household) want that sports arena, so that's why these stadium people want to tax the tourists. Why would a tourist who comes here one a year, or maybe only once in a lifetime, want to pay for it? If you have ever been to Las Vegas, you know the resort fee/tax is high enough already. No need to raise it even more.
What I meant to imply was, a tax on tourists is a common means of generating revenue for the state or local community without increasing the taxes on the resident population. It's one of the reasons that you're enjoying the benefits of no state income tax. Of course, it is a balancing act, of not taxing the tourists to the point that you're keeping them away.
Unfortunately, it's not uncommon for large metropolitan stadiums and civic centers to partially be financed by tourism taxes. It's too easy for developers and politicians to view that as free revenue.
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What I meant to imply was, a tax on tourists is a common means of generating revenue for the state or local community without increasing the taxes on the resident population. It's one of the reasons that you're enjoying the benefits of no state income tax. Of course, it is a balancing act, of not taxing the tourists to the point that you're keeping them away.
Unfortunately, it's not uncommon for large metropolitan stadiums and civic centers to partially be financed by tourism taxes. It's too easy for developers and politicians to view that as free revenue.
I get where you are coming from, but the tourists are taxed enough already. Las Vegas needs to give them a break so we can get more foot traffic.
The Sahara is closing its doors on May 16. We are losing a historic casino/hotel next Monday. It's a real shame.
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Alternatively, of course, they could slap a 300% surtax on tires. Internal combution, steam, electric, mo-ped - eventually everyone has to replace the tires, and wear on the tires is totally proportional to the vehicle's wear and tear inflicted on the road.
The Stinky Administration has already started a trade war kinda thing against China for their cheap tires ( a few months back). Its just a matter of time (when current inventories run out) before we see the impact here. But it is coming ...
We are so fortunate to have such a brave Stinky running the country now, arent we?
:stoner:
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Alternatively, of course, they could slap a 300% surtax on tires. Internal combution, steam, electric, mo-ped - eventually everyone has to replace the tires, and wear on the tires is totally proportional to the vehicle's wear and tear inflicted on the road.
Psssst. Hush up Man. That one makes sense.
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US tyre duties spark China clash (http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/f67c6fe6-a024-11de-b9ef-00144feabdc0.html#axzz1Lr4kjLVW)
September 13 2009
A full-blown trade row erupted between the US and China after Beijing accused Washington of “rampant protectionism†for imposing heavy duties on imported Chinese tyres and threatened action against imports of US poultry and vehicles.
Trade relations between two of the world’s biggest economies deteriorated after Barack Obama, US president, signed an order late on Friday to impose a new duty of 35 per cent on Chinese tyre imports on top of an existing 4 per cent tariff.
In his first big test on world trade since taking office in January, Mr Obama sided with America’s trade unions, which have complained >>>
Eswar Prasad, professor of trade economics at Cornell University, warned that the disagreement could escalate. “These protectionist measures, some of which amount to domestic political posturing rather than substantive restraints on trade, could easily ratchet up into a full-blown trade war and inflict serious economic damage on both countries,†he said.
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Stinky sides with the Unions against America. Imagine that?
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US tyre duties spark China clash (http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/f67c6fe6-a024-11de-b9ef-00144feabdc0.html#axzz1Lr4kjLVW)
September 13 2009
A full-blown trade row erupted between the US and China after Beijing accused Washington of “rampant protectionism†for imposing heavy duties on imported Chinese tyres and threatened action against imports of US poultry and vehicles.
Trade relations between two of the world’s biggest economies deteriorated after Barack Obama, US president, signed an order late on Friday to impose a new duty of 35 per cent on Chinese tyre imports on top of an existing 4 per cent tariff.
In his first big test on world trade since taking office in January, Mr Obama sided with America’s trade unions, which have complained >>>
Eswar Prasad, professor of trade economics at Cornell University, warned that the disagreement could escalate. “These protectionist measures, some of which amount to domestic political posturing rather than substantive restraints on trade, could easily ratchet up into a full-blown trade war and inflict serious economic damage on both countries,†he said.
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Stinky sides with the Unions against America. Imagine that?
Good catch Janice.........you DO know that we have at least one member of this board, and three potential Republican presidential candidates (so far) that think this kiind of action is just peachy.......
Providing American industry with a relatively level playing field on world markets is one thing........protecting bloated union wages and benefit packages is unfortunately not a recipe for a strong economy here.
Along the same lines in local labor news......the NLRB (dominated by Obama's union appointees), is threatening action against Boeing for moving a manufacturing plant from (heavily unionized) Seattle.....to N. Charleston, SC (a "right to work" state). I'm curious if Trump, Ron Paul, et al, think this is a good idea as well?!?
doc
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An escalating cycle of reciprocal protectionist tariffs is probably the quickest proven way to move from economic doldrums or recession into meltdown.
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I bought Goodyear tires for my sports car over a year ago. I made sure they were made in the USA because the ones made in China were inferior and were having blowouts. Crap like this should be tested by our government. Just wait till China starts importing those death trap cars here.
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An escalating cycle of reciprocal protectionist tariffs is probably the quickest proven way to move from economic doldrums or recession into meltdown.
Which has to be why pResident Soetoro is resorting to a pissing contest with the nation that holds the majority of our government debt now. He expected to have turned America into a shambling basket case by now; complete with bread lines, food riots, military civilian national security forces on every street corner and the people turning to Big Brotha for (social) justice by now. He has to put the pedal to the metal immediately, if he expects to have any hopes of "rebuilding America from the ground up" in 2012 or later.
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Which has to be why pResident Soetoro is resorting to a pissing contest with the nation that holds the majority of our government debt now. He expected to have turned America into a shambling basket case by now; complete with bread lines, food riots, military civilian national security forces on every street corner and the people turning to Big Brotha for (social) justice by now. He has to put the pedal to the metal immediately, if he expects to have any hopes of "rebuilding America from the ground up" in 2012 or later.
Sorry to say, thats about how I view it too.