The Conservative Cave
Current Events => General Discussion => Topic started by: MP_Sarge on March 31, 2011, 03:17:04 AM
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Irresponsible pet owners.
People who feel the need to give me "training advice" [also known as their very uninformed opinion about prong/pinch collars, electronic collars or choke collars] when they see my dog wearing a training collar.
People who tell me that feeding my dog raw food will kill her, or make her blood thirsty or aggressive.
People who tell me I need to spay my dog, and/or that it's healthier to spay/neuter a dog.
People who dress their dogs.
People who use those "Haltie" or "Gentle Leader" things on their dogs, and attempt to get me to share their delusion that they are "humane" training devices.
[Can you tell dogs are kinda a big part of my life?]
Poor table manners.
Hollywood movies with inaccurate Military uniforms, customs and courtesies, or weapon handling procedures.
People who do not know the different between there, their and they're. I can appreciate the occasional typo/slip-up, but people who honestly do not know the difference just drive me up a wall.
People who feel the need to tell me my Jeep Wrangler is a gas guzzler. Yeah dude, I know. I pay for the gas. I think I've noticed how much, and how often, fuel goes into it. I have a dog, a family and a penchant for off-roading. All things that are incompatible with a compact hybrid.
People who mistake a person's wearing of a Military uniform as an invitation for them to voice their personal opinions about the GWOT.
People who tell me smoking will kill me. Yeah, I know. I watched my dad die of cancer. I'm not a moron. I don't drink, I don't do drugs, I don't cheat on my partner, I don't beat her or my kid, I obey the law, I pay my taxes, I go to PTA meetings and I served my country in a *******ed war. I'm smoking a cigarette, outside, in accordance with the 25 feet from all doors and windows law that the state saw fit to implement. I'm not hurting you, so leave me the hell alone.
People who can't merge on the freeway.
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Irresponsible pet owners.
People who feel the need to give me "training advice" [also known as their very uninformed opinion about prong/pinch collars, electronic collars or choke collars] when they see my dog wearing a training collar.
People who tell me that feeding my dog raw food will kill her, or make her blood thirsty or aggressive.
People who tell me I need to spay my dog, and/or that it's healthier to spay/neuter a dog.
People who dress their dogs.
People who use those "Haltie" or "Gentle Leader" things on their dogs, and attempt to get me to share their delusion that they are "humane" training devices.
[Can you tell dogs are kinda a big part of my life?]
....snip.....
Every lunatic known to mankind is associated with the various types of pets. All loonies have their opinions, which they're all-too-willing to share with God and The World.
As if I give a **** about their opinions.
MP, you're right on target with the dog observations. You can double that kind of thing with avians, especially parrots.
I cannot understand for the life of me why these people insist on "just lettin' ya know!"
When I want their opinion, I'll choke it out of them. Until then, STFU.
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Every lunatic known to mankind is associated with the various types of pets. All loonies have their opinions, which they're all-too-willing to share with God and The World.
As if I give a **** about their opinions.
MP, you're right on target with the dog observations. You can double that kind of thing with avians, especially parrots.
I cannot understand for the life of me why these people insist on "just lettin' ya know!"
When I want their opinion, I'll choke it out of them. Until then, STFU.
I am so right there with you and Sarge on this one. What amazes me the most, is that the most vocal with their opinions are people that either don't have dogs, or have dogs with behavioral problems.
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I am so right there with you and Sarge on this one. What amazes me the most, is that the most vocal with their opinions are people that either don't have dogs, or have dogs with behavioral problems.
Change "dogs" to "children" and you have a whole 'nuther breed of asshole who won't hesitate to bathe you with their brilliance.
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Change "dogs" to "children" and you have a whole 'nuther breed of asshole who won't hesitate to bathe you with their brilliance.
I hear ya. I don't have children, but I was one once. I don't even suggest to anyone how to raise their child, keeping my opinions to myself. :whatever:
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People who tell me I need to spay my dog, and/or that it's healthier to spay/neuter a dog.
Yep. You should. And it is.
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Yep. You should. And it is.
Uh-huh.
Which is why post-menopausal women, and women who've had hysterectomies or men with low testosterone are oh so healthy and have no health problems associated with the lack of biologically appropriate sex hormones, right?
Nothing like making a large breed dog with genetic propensity to structural problems, deficient in the hormones which impact bone density and musculature.
If you're such a lousy pet owner that you can't prevent an unwanted breeding of your intact dog, then you probably should spay/neuter.
In the meantime, I shall continue to allow my dog the full benefit of the organs she was created with, to include the hormones that are necessary to her physical health.
I wrote about the myth of s/n being healthy, at length, on my blog:
http://pnwschutzhunder.tumblr.com/post/2771707792/effects-of-early-spay-and-neuter
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Uh-huh.
Which is why post-menopausal women, and women who've had hysterectomies or men with low testosterone are oh so healthy and have no health problems associated with the lack of biologically appropriate sex hormones, right?
Nothing like making a large breed dog with genetic propensity to structural problems, deficient in the hormones which impact bone density a musculature.
If you're such a lousy pet owner that you can't prevent an unwanted breeding of your intact dog, then you probably should spay/neuter.
In the meantime, I shall continue to allow my dog the full benefit of the organs she was created with, to include the hormones that are necessary to her physical health.
I wrote about the myth of s/n being healthy, at length, on my blog:
http://pnwschutzhunder.tumblr.com/post/2771707792/effects-of-early-spay-and-neuter
I agree. God gave them nuts, who are we to take them? :fuelfire:
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The castration of animals is actually expressly forbidden in the Torah.
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A Dog is not a menopausal woman.
Neutering a male dog is what is best for him. It takes away his aggression. If you want an aggressive and combative dog, then don't neuter him. The only reason to NOT neuter a male dog is if you want him to fight or breed.
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You might want to actually read the studies.
Aggression is *not* reduced by neutering, and in many animals, it is actually made worse.
Aggression is a behavioral issue that can be handled through proper training and socialization.
Mutilating an animal's body to compensate for your training inability or unwillingness, is cruel.
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:popcorn:
I got no dog in this fight.
:-)
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Uh-huh.
Which is why post-menopausal women, and women who've had hysterectomies or men with low testosterone are oh so healthy and have no health problems associated with the lack of biologically appropriate sex hormones, right?
Nothing like making a large breed dog with genetic propensity to structural problems, deficient in the hormones which impact bone density a musculature.
If you're such a lousy pet owner that you can't prevent an unwanted breeding of your intact dog, then you probably should spay/neuter.
In the meantime, I shall continue to allow my dog the full benefit of the organs she was created with, to include the hormones that are necessary to her physical health.
I wrote about the myth of s/n being healthy, at length, on my blog:
http://pnwschutzhunder.tumblr.com/post/2771707792/effects-of-early-spay-and-neuter
Ok, maybe the whole don't neuter/spay an animal works healthwise or whatever in theory. I'm sorry, I didn't read your blog so I'm not going to address your arguments against fixing animals to keep them intact.
This comment is directed at a very specific situation which occurred in the real world, namely, my household. Two Christmases ago my daughter's friend found a 5-week old kitten discarded in one of those industrial sized dumpsters. Brought her home, and my daughter ended up bringing the kitten to our house, and of course next business day Lucy (who we THOUGHT was Lucian) was being seen at the vet's. I scheduled her spaying for 4 months out, at this point she's roughly
gonna be 5 months and change. I thought this was a safe window. Howsoever, at four months, Lucy decided she was ready to be a kitty mama aka queen and was most vocal in expressing her readiness to be such. She yowled and went around rubbing all over the male cats, to their bewildered distress. The two males who had adopted her as a baby, confronted with her ass in their faces, tried to calm her by licking...her cheek and the top of her head.
In retrospect it's pretty damn hilarious, but was quite nerve wracking to ALL of us, two and four legged, until I could get Ms. Lucy rescheduled. At the time, and still, I have seven cats total, of which four are males and then there were the two innocent canine bystanders. I would have been REALLY worried if Lucy had sashayed up to THEM.
As for the human inhabitants of our temporary madhouse, we were beyond grateful to shut up her reproductive hormones. I didn't read your blog, so perhaps I am saying something you already expressed, which is that I am not certain a comparison between human females and our mammalian counterparts can be correlated.
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You might want to actually read the studies.
Aggression is *not* reduced by neutering, and in many animals, it is actually made worse.
Aggression is a behavioral issue that can be handled through proper training and socialization.
Mutilating an animal's body to compensate for your training inability or unwillingness, is cruel.
I sense some deeper psychological issues here......
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:popcorn:
I got no dog in this fight.
:-)
you are barking up the wrong tree, missy! :hammer:
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Cats are a whole different ballgame.
They don't suffer near the health problems that dogs do resulting from spay/neuter. Combined with the difficulty of containing cats [they don't crate well, for example], it's safer to err on the side of caution and spay/neuter felines.
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I sense some deeper psychological issues here......
Because *I* decided to harp on *your* pet peeve? Really? You started this by insisting that it's better to spay/neuter.
Then you list completely unfounded, false reasons.
Then, when I point out the fallacy, you deflect.
Yeah, my deeper psychological issue is not wishing to place animals at risk for debilitating, painful health problems for no reason, just to compensate for my own selfishness in refusing to train, socialize and contain my dog.
If obeying the Torah commandments against castrating animals and animal cruelty are "psychological issues", I'll gladly take that diagnosis.
[And if that was supposed to be a tranny jab... wouldn't I be *more* likely to go lopping off sex organs?]
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You might want to actually read the studies.
Aggression is *not* reduced by neutering, and in many animals, it is actually made worse.
Aggression is a behavioral issue that can be handled through proper training and socialization.
Mutilating an animal's body to compensate for your training inability or unwillingness, is cruel.
Daddy (RIP) and Junior are perfect examples of balanced neutered, pack-leader dogs.
[youtube=425,350]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cmNtI6oLXSQ[/youtube]
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If obeying the Torah commandments against castrating animals and animal cruelty are "psychological issues", I'll gladly take that diagnosis.
[And if that was supposed to be a tranny jab... wouldn't I be *more* likely to go lopping off sex organs?]
I'm not SDA. We don't have to follow the Law.
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You've still yet to present one argument for spay/neuter.
I'm sure there are a great many calm, well-behaved neutered dogs out there. Just as there are calm, well-behaved intact dogs out there. The existence of one doesn't disprove the existence of the other, and doesn't make an argument for spay/neuter.
I warn you that I will reject, on it's face, anything associated with Cesar Milan, a man who abuses animals for profit and fame.
His dominance-based training methods are unsound, based in misinformation about wild canid pack structure, abusive and unnecessary.
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You've still yet to present one argument for spay/neuter.
I'm sure there are a great many calm, well-behaved neutered dogs out there. Just as there are calm, well-behaved intact dogs out there. The existence of one doesn't disprove the existence of the other, and doesn't make an argument for spay/neuter.
I warn you that I will reject, on it's face, anything associated with Cesar Milan, a man who abuses animals for profit and fame.
His dominance-based training methods are unsound, based in misinformation about wild canid pack structure, abusive and unnecessary.
Cesar has it right. He doesn't abuse the dogs at all. It's the humans who *think* dogs think like humans
Cesar knows exactly how dogs think.
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I don't think dogs are anything at all like humans.
They're also not wolves, for a few reasons, the largest of which is that we selected dogs for breeding that retained juvenile traits throughout their lives, and therefore are naturally more submissive.
I also know that the studies upon which he bases his training theories are flawed, as they represent wolves studied in captivity.
In the wild, wolf packs are comprised of family units. There is no contest of alpha male or female- they are the parents of the other wolves.
The dominance displays that Cesar bases his training on are dominance displays in artificial wolf packs created in wolf sanctuaries and zoos.
David L. Mech [one of the most respected wolf biologists of this, or ANY time] has, time and again, pointed out the many flaws in Cesar's philosophy.
If you think kicking dogs, choking dogs and completely misusing an electric collar is somehow "training" dogs, then by all means, continue to worship the former illegal alien.
Behold, Cesar choking a dog to near unconsciousness, rather than using the far more effective distance desensitization techniques to address dog-dog aggression.
If you watch closely, you can even see him kick the dog and then punish the dog with further strangulation, for reacting to the kick in the ribs:
[youtube=425,350]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eQUegRGo0kw[/youtube]
And you still haven't shown me what is so healthy about spay/neuter.
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I don't think dogs are anything at all like humans.
They're also not wolves, for a few reasons, the largest of which is that we selected dogs for breeding that retained juvenile traits throughout their lives, and therefore are naturally more submissive.
I also know that the studies upon which he bases his training theories are flawed, as they represent wolves studied in captivity.
In the wild, wolf packs are comprised of family units. There is no contest of alpha male or female- they are the parents of the other wolves.
The dominance displays that Cesar bases his training on are dominance displays in artificial wolf packs created in wolf sanctuaries and zoos.
David L. Mech [one of the most respected wolf biologists of this, or ANY time] has, time and again, pointed out the many flaws in Cesar's philosophy.
If you think kicking dogs, choking dogs and completely misusing an electric collar is somehow "training" dogs, then by all means, continue to worship the former illegal alien.
And you still haven't shown me what is so healthy about spay/neuter.
He knows that dogs aren't wolves.
[youtube=425,350]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qfpQVjYFcSE[/youtube]
Why should they be neutered? Because it's better for them. It's better for their health. They live longer. They are move even-tempered. They are happier.
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If he knows they aren't wolves, then why does he base his entire training philosophy on dominance theory, which is founded in flawed wolf studies?
Care to cite a study that shows that neutered dogs live longer for health reasons? [Hint: You can't. The shorter life span of intact dogs in studies is the result of irresponsible owners who allow their intact animals to roam, and die from injuries sustained by roaming, not chronic health problems associated with the organs that they are designed to have.]
You must have missed the study that showed that leaving females intact makes them live longer, huh?
http://www.petconnection.com/blog/2009/12/01/dogs-and-women-live-longer-with-their-ovaries-than-without/
You also must have missed the studies that outline a myriad of behavior and temperament problems CAUSED by spay/neuter:
http://www.acc-d.org/2006%20Symposium%20Docs/Duffy2.pdf
And the studies that show that spay/neuter causes a markedly increased risk of prostatic cancer, hip dysplasia, CCL injuries, obesity, neoplastic conditions and cognitive impairment.
http://www.acc-d.org/2006%20Symposium%20Docs/1Spain.pdf
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I dunno....... my dog, the one I grew up with was a pretty decent dog and he was never neutered. He escaped the fence a few times and MIGHT have been responsible for some pups, but I'll never know. Smart as a whip and docile as can be until somebody or some other dog invaded his "territory". He lived pretty long and was always healthy until he tangled with a pit bull and infection set in. (I was in the Navy when this happened)
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by all means, continue to worship the former illegal alien.
Whoa...I just caught that...
I don't worship him. And the word is *former* ...he was a kid. And he has become a hard-working and valuable member of society. Wow...just wow.....
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Worship was unfair, you're right.
I'm glad that he went on to become a productive, contributing member of society after his criminal act, for which he should have been deported.
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Worship was unfair, you're right.
I'm glad that he went on to become a productive, contributing member of society after his criminal act, for which he should have been deported.
Yeah right. He was really dangerous ::)
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Dogs probably think he is, but that's irrelevant. We have immigration laws in this country. He chose to violate them. He should have been deported.
And that still doesn't provide any evidence that spay/neuter improves the health or well-being of a dog.
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With the last dog I had, a small Yorkie, abusing her would have been the very last thing to do with her. I kennel trained her, rewarded her for doing good and scolded her for doing bad. If she was bad, she got sent to her kennel. Hell, sometimes, I'd find her in there already because she had peed or pooped on the floor. After my ex and I split up, I found a home for her. I wish I still had her around as she was a good little doggie. And she LOVED to go for rides in the truck!! I had to teach her that she was not allowed in my lap when I was driving, though. She was a little dog with a big dog attitude.
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Dogs probably think he is, but that's irrelevant. We have immigration laws in this country. He chose to violate them. He should have been deported.
And that still doesn't provide any evidence that spay/neuter improves the health or well-being of a dog.
Better health. A dog that is spayed or neutered has no chance of developing uterine or testicular cancer; in females, the risk of breast cancer and urinary infections is drastically reduced. Reproductive cancers are common among older dogs that have been bred.
Better behavior. Male dogs that are neutered when young are much less likely to roam, mark their territory (and your belongings) with urine, and show aggression toward other male dogs. Intact (unneutered) male dogs will go to great lengths to get to a female dog in heat—they will dig their way out of yards, break fences and leashes, and cross streets in heavy traffic if a female in heat is in the area.
Easier care. An unspayed female bleeds for about 10 straight days twice a year. She bleeds on your carpet, your furniture, the interior of your car, and on the ground outside. As soon as she has marked your yard, you can anticipate a constant parade of male dogs who will pace your lawn, howl, and bark. You have a fenced yard? They will dig their way in.
No accidental pregnancies. If your dog accidentally becomes pregnant, you will have to provide additional medical care—for her and the puppies—and be responsible for finding good homes for half a dozen or more offspring.
Myths About Spaying/Neutering
Some people don’t want to spay or neuter their dog because they have heard about some bad “side effects†of the surgery, or because they have picked up some mistaken ideas along the way. There are a number of myths about spaying and neutering. Here are a few of the most common, and the truth about each.
All the following are false:
Altering makes a dog fat
Altering makes a dog lazy
Altering changes a dog’s personality
My dog has a right to experience sex
It’s a good thing for our children to see the miracle of birth
Explanations are under all under the bolded titles.
http://www.almosthomerescue.org/spayneuter/spayneuter.htm (http://www.almosthomerescue.org/spayneuter/spayneuter.htm)
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Those are their unsupported claims, many of which are completely disproved by the studies I posted.
Claims aren't proof, they're claims.
Let's see a study.
Also, YOU claimed that altering a dog changes their personality, making them "less aggressive" and "calmer".
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Sarge,
Go find someone else to drill tonight.
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Better health:
Hardly. In fact, neutering dramatically increases the risk of prostate cancer in male dogs, as well as other prostate disorders. While it is true that testicular cancer risks are eliminated, testicular cancer in dogs is incredibly rare, and easily treated with gonadectomy if it does develop. [The exception to this would be a dog who has a retained testicle at maturity. Any time a dog hasn't had both testicles drop by 18 months, he should be X-rayed to determine whether the testicle has been retained. If it has, the dog should be neutered to avoid the risk of a strangulated testicle, or testicular cancer, which is NOT rare in dogs with retained testicles.]
Female dogs are still at risk for reproductive cancers, even after spay, because the neck of the uterus is left behind during the procedure. A spayed dog can still develop uterine cancer in the uterine stump left behind after spay, as well as pyometra. In addition, she gains the risk of multiple other forms of cancer, with the removal of estrogen from her body.
Both male and female dogs gain significantly increased risk of structural, immune, neurologic and bladder health impairments, as well outlined in these studies.
http://www.acc-d.org/2006%20Symposium%20Docs/1VerstegenOnclin.pdf
http://www.acc-d.org/2006%20Symposium%20Docs/1Spain.pdf
Better behavior:
Again, not so much.
Female and male dogs are both often made MORE aggressive by the procedure, and female dogs are also more prone to fearfulness and touch sensitivity afterward.
The only behavior that is markedly reduced by neutering is marking behaviors in male dogs.
This also disproves their assertion that it doesn't change a dog's personality, now doesn't it. I suppose we can believe everything else they have to say if they're going to contradict themselves, can't we?
This study outlines the negative effects on behavior from altering dogs:
http://www.acc-d.org/2006%20Symposium%20Docs/Duffy2.pdf
I agree that altered dogs cannot have unwanted litters.
[They also cannot produce the sex hormones necessary for proper development and health]
Dogs that are properly contained and cared for also cannot produce unwanted litters.
Surgically altering a dog to avoid having to be responsible for cleaning up after it or properly containing it is cruel. You're making the dog suffer for your own laziness.
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Sarge,
Go find someone else to drill tonight.
1) You decided that after hearing that it was my pet peeve to have people who are operating on misinformation attempt to convince me of their incorrect viewpoint about altering dogs, to do just that.
2) What makes you think you're the only person interested in the subject?
3) No one is forcing you to read, or respond. It's not as though I'm flooding you with PMs.
4) I guess when you can't prove your POV, rather than either find evidence to support it, or admit that perhaps you weren't as informed as you thought you were, you just quit and feign the victim who is being "drilled" by the big meanie who keeps insisting you actually support your argument with proof, rather than claims.
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Cats are a whole different ballgame.
They don't suffer near the health problems that dogs do resulting from spay/neuter. Combined with the difficulty of containing cats [they don't crate well, for example], it's safer to err on the side of caution and spay/neuter felines.
That's good to know, since I've got seven rescues running around the house of the feline variety.
I also have two dogs, both altered, because the animal control shelter doesn't allow adoption of intact dogs or cats. I have to believe my adopting abandoned animals is better than them getting the needle or gassed.
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Where I live at is right on the border of the city. People come out here and drop off their unwanted pets. I rescued a young pit bull mix (pretty lovable little feller) and found him a good home after we got him somewhat healthy and several cats. This past summer took a toll on the cats as they mysteriously disappeared. We're thinking that either an owl or a mountain lion got them and possibly a coyote. I've been able to get rid of the coons, but now we have a resident possum.
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With the last dog I had, a small Yorkie, abusing her would have been the very last thing to do with her. I kennel trained her, rewarded her for doing good and scolded her for doing bad. If she was bad, she got sent to her kennel. Hell, sometimes, I'd find her in there already because she had peed or pooped on the floor. After my ex and I split up, I found a home for her. I wish I still had her around as she was a good little doggie. And she LOVED to go for rides in the truck!! I had to teach her that she was not allowed in my lap when I was driving, though. She was a little dog with a big dog attitude.
My dogs are basically untrained. I'll admit to gifting them with human feelings, it's late so I forget the term for when people transfer human thoughts and feelings to animals, anthro something...
Anyway, one of my sisters in law is MEAN to her dog. The dog cringes when she points her finger at him. Now, maybe the dog is happy, but I'm not at all happy with that sort of treatment and we got into quite a heated exchange.
Sarge, there is one argument FOR spaying or neutering dogs and cats, and it's this. Until we can get the numbers of dogs and cats under control, millions upon millions of abandoned, unwanted "surplus" pets are going to be put to death. I read somewhere that in order to find a home for ALL cats and dogs out there, each American family would have to adopt 12 dogs and 45 cats.
My dogs live in my house and in the backyard so if they're not perfectly trained automatons it's no one's business but mine and my vet's, who they slobber all over. :-)
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Anthropomorphism.
(Counts both as a reply to the above, and as a possible pet peeve. However, I do not keep peeves as pets-- altered or otherwise-- as they are in either case indiscriminately bitey.)
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I will absolutely, 110% agree that if you cannot, or will not, prevent unwanted breeding from occurring, your animal should be spayed/neutered at 18 months of age. [Although really, if you can't prevent unwanted breeding, it's possible you just shouldn't own a dog.]
Most *dogs* surrendered to animal shelters end up there because of behavioral issues [many of which, ironically, can be exacerbated, if not caused, by spay/neuter], not because of unwanted breeding. There have been several, multi-year studies done that disprove the idea that mandatory spay/neuter will reduce dog populations in shelters. While certainly litters of puppies can, and are, surrendered to shelters, the majority of dogs in shelters are there because they have behavioral problems that could have been prevented through training and proper care.
My own experience working in dog rehabilitation for dogs in foster/rescue situations is consistent with the results of those studies.
What would reduce dog populations in shelters is responsible dog ownership. Even though I hate nearly every aspect of the American Kennel Club, I do support and am actively involved in their Canine Good Citizen program, for JUST that reason.
Cat overpopulation, on the other hand, is entirely the result of unwanted breeding, and all cats should be spayed or neutered. I am hoping that the on-going studies of food additives as birth control methods for feral cat populations are as promising as the preliminary results seem to indicate, as it would be a terrific day for those of us who are active in animal rescue.
Regardless, if you as a pet owner choose to alter your dogs, that is your choice, and your right. Note that my initial post was not "My pet peeve is people who spay/neuter their dogs." I don't make a habit of telling people how to live with their dogs, until after they come to me and beg me to help them [which is pretty damned often.]
I choose not to spay/neuter my dogs, and it infuriates me to no end to have people insist that it would be healthier, kinder or in any way "better" for my dog, if I had her spayed. The evidence just doesn't bear it out, nor does my own experience, and if you're going to confront me and insist that what I'm doing is wrong [even though I afford you the respect to leave you to your own devices and choices], you'd better bring evidence to back it up.
Our cats are all spayed/neutered, because we got them while running a Feral Cat Trap/Neuter/Release program.
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Cat overpopulation, on the other hand, is entirely the result of unwanted breeding, and all cats should be spayed or neutered. I am hoping that the on-going studies of food additives as birth control methods for feral cat populations are as promising as the preliminary results seem to indicate, as it would be a terrific day for those of us who are active in animal rescue.
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Our cats are all spayed/neutered, because we got them while running a Feral Cat Trap/Neuter/Release program.
I've got the solution to cat overpopulation locked in the gun safe.
Couple years ago we got 60 in a night between 3 of us.
That said - I like cats as a general rule. Household cats.
If I spot fluffy out in the bush - it gets shot. They're #2 on the "target list" , behind pigs and before dogs. There's still a bounty on em in some areas.
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That's good to know, since I've got seven rescues running around the house of the feline variety.
I also have two dogs, both altered, because the animal control shelter doesn't allow adoption of intact dogs or cats. I have to believe my adopting abandoned animals is better than them getting the needle or gassed.
It also keeps them from being dumped at my house. Hi 5 for adopting!
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Sarge, there is one argument FOR spaying or neutering dogs and cats, and it's this. Until we can get the numbers of dogs and cats under control, millions upon millions of abandoned, unwanted "surplus" pets are going to be put to death. I read somewhere that in order to find a home for ALL cats and dogs out there, each American family would have to adopt 12 dogs and 45 cats.
We've adopted 3 shelter dogs. I figure they're happier being fixed and having a home than being put to death. I know our life is enriched by having them share our home.
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It also keeps them from being dumped at my house. Hi 5 for adopting!
Thanks Alpha Mare, and HI5 back atchya!
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We've adopted 3 shelter dogs. I figure they're happier being fixed and having a home than being put to death. I know our life is enriched by having them share our home.
HI5 for adopting!
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I will absolutely, 110% agree that if you cannot, or will not, prevent unwanted breeding from occurring, your animal should be spayed/neutered at 18 months of age. [Although really, if you can't prevent unwanted breeding, it's possible you just shouldn't own a dog.]
Most *dogs* surrendered to animal shelters end up there because of behavioral issues [many of which, ironically, can be exacerbated, if not caused, by spay/neuter], not because of unwanted breeding. There have been several, multi-year studies done that disprove the idea that mandatory spay/neuter will reduce dog populations in shelters. While certainly litters of puppies can, and are, surrendered to shelters, the majority of dogs in shelters are there because they have behavioral problems that could have been prevented through training and proper care.
My own experience working in dog rehabilitation for dogs in foster/rescue situations is consistent with the results of those studies.
What would reduce dog populations in shelters is responsible dog ownership. Even though I hate nearly every aspect of the American Kennel Club, I do support and am actively involved in their Canine Good Citizen program, for JUST that reason.
Cat overpopulation, on the other hand, is entirely the result of unwanted breeding, and all cats should be spayed or neutered. I am hoping that the on-going studies of food additives as birth control methods for feral cat populations are as promising as the preliminary results seem to indicate, as it would be a terrific day for those of us who are active in animal rescue.
Regardless, if you as a pet owner choose to alter your dogs, that is your choice, and your right. Note that my initial post was not "My pet peeve is people who spay/neuter their dogs." I don't make a habit of telling people how to live with their dogs, until after they come to me and beg me to help them [which is pretty damned often.]
I choose not to spay/neuter my dogs, and it infuriates me to no end to have people insist that it would be healthier, kinder or in any way "better" for my dog, if I had her spayed. The evidence just doesn't bear it out, nor does my own experience, and if you're going to confront me and insist that what I'm doing is wrong [even though I afford you the respect to leave you to your own devices and choices], you'd better bring evidence to back it up.
Our cats are all spayed/neutered, because we got them while running a Feral Cat Trap/Neuter/Release program.
Sarge, have you heard of Alley Cat Allies. They provide lots of info about TNR, which you obviously don't need since you've already done it. But I wondered if you belonged to them, or had heard of that organization.
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The name seems familiar, but probably only because I've read it on rescue forums.
I support, BTW, rescues sterilizing animals (cats, dogs and bunnies) before adoption.
They, like any animal owner, have the legal and moral authority to make that decision regarding their own animals. Since they remain the legal owners, even after adoption, spay/neuter is the only way they can ensure there are no unwanted litters once the dogs are living in their new home.
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I did a pretty fair amount of research on dogs before we bought Belle, our purebred golden retriever. One of the issues involved spaying her.
We purchased her on a "limited AKC registration" meaning that we could register her with AKC, but none of her puppies would be able to be registered.
We didn't bother with that anyway since we simply wanted a purebred golden as a pet and had no plans to show her or have her compete in anything.
The whole business about spaying/neutering is pretty contentious as virtually ANYTHING involving making a decision about pets is contentious.
With respect to goldens, I read that if the decision to neuter is made, it's best to wait until the dog is about 18 months old. That allows the dog ample time for him to achieve his full height and weight potential. Neutering at 6 months old does the dog a potential disservice because the required hormones for him to get and grow aren't there.
With females, it was less of an issue but it was still advisable to wait until the female was a little older rather than a very young puppy (some get the spaying done as early as 8 weeks ( :o ). Bone and hip development needs to develop. As goldens are susceptible to hip dysplasia (as are many breeds), another recommendation was to avoid excessive jumping until the dog matured to 18 months or so.
With Belle, we chose to have her spayed at about 6 months. While our yard is fenced and we spent ample time outside with her, I know males well enough to know if she's ready, they're willing to get some of that! And that we couldn't have, of course.
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Angus is neutered because he had a retained testicle at 20 months. I hadn't intended to neuter him, and it didn't change his personality one iota, but our vet recommended it for health concerns.
If I spot fluffy out in the bush - it gets shot. They're #2 on the "target list" , behind pigs and before dogs. There's still a bounty on em in some areas.
You mustn't have squirrels in Australia.
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Males with a retained testicle should always be neutered at sexual maturity. Like your vet said- the health risks are too high.
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The name seems familiar, but probably only because I've read it on rescue forums.
I support, BTW, rescues sterilizing animals (cats, dogs and bunnies) before adoption.
They, like any animal owner, have the legal and moral authority to make that decision regarding their own animals. Since they remain the legal owners, even after adoption, spay/neuter is the only way they can ensure there are no unwanted litters once the dogs are living in their new home.
I thought you must support the sterilization of rescue animals; alot of them end up in shelters due to being the surplus in an unexpected litter. Alongside all the dogs with behavioral problems, or who just outgrow their cuteness. :banghead:
With Easter coming up, the shelters are going to see a seasonal influx of bunnies who were brought home for the holiday and are now no longer wanted. I adopted my last pair of bunnies for that very reason. No bunnies nowadays though-they'd make too tasty a chew toy for the dogs and cats.
It chaps my ass no end that people treat animals like disposable tissue, use 'em and throw 'em away.
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It chaps my ass no end that people treat animals like disposable tissue, use 'em and throw 'em away.
Yes and H5 for it.
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Bunnies and chicks, yep.
I have for years sent this article out as an email [mods: the author has granted permission to reproduce in full] and a plea for people to think twice about that cute puppy, every holiday season:
When I was a puppy I entertained you with my antics and made you laugh. You called me your child and despite a number of chewed shoes and a couple of murdered throw pillows, I became your best friend. Whenever I was "bad," you'd shake your finger at me and ask "How could you?" - but then you'd relent and roll me over for a bellyrub.
My housetraining took a little longer than expected, because you were terribly busy, but we worked on that together. I remember those nights of nuzzling you in bed, listening to your confidences and secret dreams, and I believed that life could not be any more perfect. We went for long walks and runs in the park, car rides, stops for ice cream (I only got the cone because "ice cream is bad for dogs," you said), and I took long naps in the sun waiting for you to come home at the end of the day.
Gradually, you began spending more time at work and on your career, and more time searching for a human mate. I waited for you patiently, comforted you through heartbreaks and disappointments, never chided you about bad decisions, and romped with glee at your homecomings, and when you fell in love.
She, now your wife, is not a "dog person" - still I welcomed her into our home, tried to show her affection, and obeyed her. I was happy because you were happy. Then the human babies came along and I shared your excitement. I was fascinated by their pinkness, how they smelled, and I wanted to mother them, too. Only she and you worried that I might hurt them, and I spent most of my time banished to another room, or to a dog crate. Oh, how I wanted to love them, but I became a "prisoner of love."
As they began to grow, I became their friend. They clung to my fur and pulled themselves up on wobbly legs, poked fingers in my eyes, investigated my ears and gave me kisses on my nose. I loved everything about them and their touch - because your touch was now so infrequent - and I would have defended them with my life if need be.
I would sneak into their beds and listen to their worries and secret dreams. Together we waited for the sound of your car in the driveway. There had been a time, when others asked you if you had a dog, that you produced a photo of me from your wallet and told them stories about me. These past few years, you just answered "yes" and changed the subject. I had gone from being "your dog" to "just a dog," and you resented every expenditure on my behalf.
Now you have a new career opportunity in another city, and you and they will be moving to an apartment that does not allow pets. You've made the right decision for your "family," but there was a time when I was your only family.
I was excited about the car ride until we arrived at the animal shelter. It smelled of dogs and cats, of fear, of hopelessness. You filled out the paperwork and said "I know you will find a good home for her." They shrugged and gave you a pained look. They understand the realities facing a middle-aged dog or cat, even one with "papers." You had to pry your son's fingers loose from my collar as he screamed "No, Daddy! Please don't let them take my dog!" And I worried for him, and what lessons you had just taught him about friendship and loyalty, about love and responsibility, and about respect for all life. You gave me a goodbye pat on the head, avoided my eyes, and politely refused to take my collar and leash with you. You had a deadline to meet and now I have one, too.
After you left, the two nice ladies said you probably knew about your upcoming move months ago and made no attempt to find me another good home. They shook their heads and asked "How could you?"
They are as attentive to us here in the shelter as their busy schedules allow. They feed us, of course, but I lost my appetite days ago. At first, whenever anyone passed my pen, I rushed to the front, hoping it was you - that you had changed your mind - that this was all a bad dream...or I hoped it would at least be someone who cared, anyone who might save me. When I realized I could not compete with the frolicking for attention of happy puppies, oblivious to their own fate, I retreated to a far corner and waited.
I heard her footsteps as she came for me at the end of the day and I padded along the aisle after her to a separate room. A blissfully quiet room. She placed me on the table, rubbed my ears and told me not to worry. My heart pounded in anticipation of what was to come, but there was also a sense of relief. The prisoner of love had run out of days. As is my nature, I was more concerned about her. The burden which she bears weighs heavily on her and I know that, the same way I knew your every mood.
She gently placed a tourniquet around my foreleg as a tear ran down her cheek. I licked her hand in the same way I used to comfort you so many years ago. She expertly slid the hypodermic needle into my vein. As I felt the sting and the cool liquid coursing through my body, I lay down sleepily, looked into her kind eyes and murmured "How could you?"
Perhaps because she understood my dogspeak, she said "I'm so sorry." She hugged me and hurriedly explained it was her job to make sure I went to a better place, where I wouldn't be ignored or abused or abandoned, or have to fend for myself - a place of love and light so very different from this earthly place. With my last bit of energy, I tried to convey to her with a thump of my tail that my "How could you?" was not meant for her. It was you, My Beloved Master, I was thinking of. I will think of you and wait for you forever.
May everyone in your life continue to show you so much loyalty.
~Jim Willis
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I friggin hate that story. I worked in an animal shelter last fall. Unfortunately it wasn't no-kill. I saw that scenario happen many times. That's how I ended up with my cat. At 8 years old, the owners decided not to try and fix his tendency to pee in the house after they had a kid. After two weeks, he went on the euth list and I decided to ask my boss if I could take him home. Now he has a pretty good life, especially since he was 24 hours from getting put to sleep.
That is the one job I have ever been let go from, and I'm glad every day that I was. I don't know how people do it for a living.
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We've adopted 3 shelter dogs. I figure they're happier being fixed and having a home than being put to death. I know our life is enriched by having them share our home.
H5!
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I friggin hate that story. I worked in an animal shelter last fall. Unfortunately it wasn't no-kill. I saw that scenario happen many times. That's how I ended up with my cat. At 8 years old, the owners decided not to try and fix his tendency to pee in the house after they had a kid. After two weeks, he went on the euth list and I decided to ask my boss if I could take him home. Now he has a pretty good life, especially since he was 24 hours from getting put to sleep.
That is the one job I have ever been let go from, and I'm glad every day that I was. I don't know how people do it for a living.
I tried alcoholism.
When that failed, I quit.
I only work with dogs in foster homes, now.
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I have for years sent this article out as an email
Knew what it was going to say but read it anyway.
Ugh...