The Conservative Cave
Current Events => General Discussion => Topic started by: CG6468 on March 21, 2011, 09:44:43 AM
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The madness continues...........
World starves as Americans burn food to stay on the road
SPECTATORS at February's Daytona 500 in Florida were handed green flags to wave in celebration of the news that the race's stock cars now use gasoline with 15 per cent corn-based ethanol. It was the start of a season-long television marketing campaign to sell the merits of biofuel to Americans.
On the surface, the "greening of NASCAR" is merely a transparent (and, one suspects, ill-fated) exercise in "greenwashing" for the sport. But the partnership between a beloved American pastime and the biofuel lobby is also the latest attempt to sway public opinion in favour of a truly irresponsible policy.
The US spends about $6 billion a year on federal support for ethanol production through tax credits, tariffs, and other programs. Thanks to this financial assistance, one-sixth of the world's corn supply is burned in American cars; enough corn to feed 350 million people for an entire year.
"Green" Fuels for NASCAR (http://www.theaustralian.com.au/national-affairs/world-starves-as-americans-burn-food-to-stay-on-the-road/story-fn59niix-1226025033392)
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Yeah, but the DUmmies feel good about it so it's worth it...right?
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"The greening of NASCAR" ??? :thatsright: Who let the freaks in?
I'd rather see them go back to their roots and return to running their cars on corn liquor like the old days. :naughty:
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I can't describe how sick I am of the Blame America First shit that has taken hold. Since Obama has taken the WH it's only gotten worse.
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How much of the grain crop in this country goes into booze?
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How much of the grain crop in this country goes into booze?
On days like today, not nearly enough!
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http://www.nass.usda.gov/Charts_and_Maps/Field_Crops/cornprod.asp
Corn production in the US has risen from a low in 2002 of 9 billion bushels to a high in the last 2 years of about 12.5 billion bushels. This largely negates the complaint of using so much.
Ethanol is not made from corn that would feed humans...
http://www.ethanolmarket.com/PressReleaseRFA100909
Ethanol production does not reduce the amount of food available for human consumption. Ethanol is produced from field corn which is primarily fed to livestock and is undigestible by humans in its raw form. The ethanol production process produces not only fuel but valuable livestock feed products.
Every 56-pound bushel of corn used in the dry mill ethanol process yields 18 pounds of distillers grains, a good source of energy and protein for livestock and poultry. Similarly, a bushel of corn in the wet mill ethanol process creates 13.5 pounds of corn gluten feed and 2.6 pounds of high-protein corn gluten meal, as well as corn oil used in food processing.
Importantly, ethanol production utilizes only the starch portion of the corn kernel, which is abundant and of low value. While the starch is converted to ethanol, the protein, vitamins, minerals and fiber are sold as high-value livestock feed (distillers grains). Protein, which is left intact by the ethanol process, is a highly valued product in world food and feed markets. One-third of every bushel of grain that enters the ethanol process is enhanced and returned to the animal feed market, most often in the form of distillers grains, corn gluten feed and corn gluten meal.
Ethanol does not use up the feed portion of the corn.
The overwhelming majority of U.S. corn, including exported corn, feeds livestock—not humans. There is a popular misconception that corn is exported from the U.S. to feed those in malnourished countries, and thus ethanol use will diminish exports to these countries. The truth is the majority of corn exports are used to feed livestock in developed countries. Importantly, the U.S. ethanol industry is helping to satisfy foreign demand for high-protein, high-energy feedstuffs by exporting more than 1 million metric tons of distillers grains to countries around the world in 2005.
Not that facts will change the mind of any liberal. ::) ::)
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As you can see I'm a new guy on the block here. I stumbled on to this forum after doing some searching on reaction to the Australian article. I personally feel ethanol in our gasoline is a BAD idea even if it's not coming from "human" food corn. It can attact water causing corrosion of engine parts. Unlike gasoline it can't be transported through pipelines so it needs to be trucked and/or transported by rail...burning fossil fuels in the process. How much fossil fuel is consumed in the process of growing corn for ethanol? I really don't see any advantages to it. It's much better as a beverage than a fuel! I found this recent post on YAHOO:
Ethanol is wrong on so many
points. One what it does to animal feed cost. Before ethanol- I was paying 200.00
a ton for premium Horse feed. Today I am paying just shy of $500.00 dollars a ton,
Cattle feed the same. Hog the same. Poultry the same.
Ethanol offers no saving in fuel price as it was supposed to.
Ethanol is death to 2 cycle motors.
Ethanol is death to High compression engines.
I have a fleet of over 500 Police Vehicles in my department. Ethanol fuel
is detrimental to my engines by causing a caustic ring of salt around seals
and gaskets.
Worse is your situation dealing with food for hungry people.
More than 1/3 of the corn crop US will go to ethanol. Not leaving one
hell of lot for anything other.
Thanks for showing interest in the truth about ethanol
Source(s):
A County Sheriff, and Equine trainer (part time)
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Ok, that's one person's opinion but I agree 100% with him. What we need to be doing is developing our own petroleum resources which the government will not let us do and taking advantage of our vast natural gas resources. Natural gas makes a much better motor fuel (in vehicles designed for it) than corrosive ethanol.
BTW: This looks like a great forum and I'll be checking back!
-Chuck
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I agree that ethanol is a bad idea. I'd love to have a CNG car for the cleanliness of the fuel and long life of the engine.
But ethanol is completely renewable, exactly as the greenies want. And it does NOTHING to decrease the human food supply, since the corn used cannot be eaten by humans AND still produces high protein livestock feed. It's a flat out lie that it decreases human food, and I hate liars. There are perfectly good, truthful reasons to hate ethanol in our fuel.
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Actually, ethanol DOES decrease the food supplies because the farmers are planting MORE corn for ethanol and LESS foodstuff corn. I witnessed this when I was up in MN and the ethanol plants started surfacing and govt props started increasing.
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Are we still paying people not to grow crops?
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Ethenol is shit! It screws up everything is comes in contact with including the land and ground water where its grown. Yes to much agriculture is not good. Ask the Germans.
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I want to turn the entire NASCAR world upside down by installing a right turn signal in one of the cars that never quits blinking.
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I want to turn the entire NASCAR world upside down by installing a right turn signal in one of the cars that never quits blinking.
:lmao: :hi5:
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I agree that ethanol is a bad idea. I'd love to have a CNG car for the cleanliness of the fuel and long life of the engine.
But ethanol is completely renewable, exactly as the greenies want. And it does NOTHING to decrease the human food supply, since the corn used cannot be eaten by humans AND still produces high protein livestock feed. It's a flat out lie that it decreases human food, and I hate liars. There are perfectly good, truthful reasons to hate ethanol in our fuel.
I think that Thor hit the nail on the head.......land devoted to grain for ethanol is removed from production of food products. I'd also have a bit of a quibble with your rationale that field corn is unsuitable for anything other than stock feed, there is a HUGE industry built around cornstarch and meal which IS manufactured from field corn. Most of the production from our area ends up being purchased by companies like National Starch, Pillsbury, and General Mills. Many local farmers have end-user contracts with them.
doc
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I think that Thor hit the nail on the head.......land devoted to grain for ethanol is removed from production of food products. I'd also have a bit of a quibble with your rationale that field corn is unsuitable for anything other than stock feed, there is a HUGE industry built around cornstarch and meal which IS manufactured from field corn. Most of the production from our area ends up being purchased by companies like National Starch, Pillsbury, and General Mills. Many local farmers have end-user contracts with them.
doc
Moonshine.
Just saying.
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Actually, ethanol DOES decrease the food supplies because the farmers are planting MORE corn for ethanol and LESS foodstuff corn. I witnessed this when I was up in MN and the ethanol plants started surfacing and govt props started increasing.
This could be, but when corn production has gone from 9 billion bushels to 12.5 billion bushels, it's hard to see how we could be doing much actual damage to food corn supplies. Certainly not to the extent claimed...
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This could be, but when corn production has gone from 9 billion bushels to 12.5 billion bushels, it's hard to see how we could be doing much actual damage to food corn supplies. Certainly not to the extent claimed...
Because there's a difference between corn that people eat and corn used for ethanol. When ethanol started becoming the "rage", I was still in MN. Farmers there were contemplating turning away from growing potatoes to starting to grow field corn because there was more money in it due to the government subsidies of ethanol. Certainly corn production is up, but it's not the type of corn people eat.
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This could be, but when corn production has gone from 9 billion bushels to 12.5 billion bushels, it's hard to see how we could be doing much actual damage to food corn supplies. Certainly not to the extent claimed...
The question that I would ask about the increase in production of corn to 12.5 billion bushels is: 1) There is a finite amount of tillable land in the US......what crops were grown on that land that were replaced by corn for ethanol, and 2) You cannot grow corn on the same field repeatedly year after year......crops have to be rotated, or the land is depleted. I would therefore question whether that 12.5 billion bushel number is a sustainable level, or just a fluke caused by high corn prices.
Around here, (at least on our 880 acres), corn is alternated with soybeans every year, and an occasional field is used for winter wheat after the corn is harvested (if the corn is ready early enough in the fall, so that the field can be prepped and replanted)..
doc
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The question that I would ask about the increase in production of corn to 12.5 billion bushels is: 1) There is a finite amount of tillable land in the US......what crops were grown on that land that were replaced by corn for ethanol, and 2) You cannot grow corn on the same field repeatedly year after year......crops have to be rotated, or the land is depleted. I would therefore question whether that 12.5 billion bushel number is a sustainable level, or just a fluke caused by high corn prices.
Around here, (at least on our 880 acres), corn is alternated with soybeans every year, and an occasional field is used for winter wheat after the corn is harvested (if the corn is ready early enough in the fall, so that the field can be prepped and replanted)..
doc
In theory, I would agree with you DOC, however, I've witnessed corn fields being used as corn fields for several years. Most notably when I lived in Becker and hunted in Granite falls. I very rarely saw any crop rotation.
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In theory, I would agree with you DOC, however, I've witnessed corn fields being used as corn fields for several years. Most notably when I lived in Becker and hunted in Granite falls. I very rarely saw any crop rotation.
I think the new fertilizers seemed to have done away with crop rotation. There have been corn in several fields here in town that are always corn. Yes, I live in a hick town with corn fields in the city limits.
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Friday, November 5, 2010
Corn in the USA
Heather Cox Richardson
http://histsociety.blogspot.com/2010/11/corn-and-united-states.html
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Cheap corn has also changed the way we eat. It finds its way into most of the foods in American supermarkets, as high fructose corn syrup (HFCS) into soda and processed foods, of course, but also into less obvious places like beef, since corn was so cheap cattle growers began to use it to feed animals that had always fattened on grass. The raft of organizations concerned about America’s obesity epidemic have pointed to the ubiquity of cheap corn as a key ingredient in our increasing health problems.
It has also most likely changed recent demographics. Researchers speculate that heavily subsidized US corn has combined with NAFTA to disrupt rural Mexico, where small farmers can’t compete with cheap US corn. They have left rural regions to move to cities in Mexico, and while no research has been conducted on cross-border migration, it seems likely that displaced farmers are making their way to US farm operations to find work.
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Interesting take on the issue...
I have been searching for information on corn production, comparisons with other crop production, etc. Have found almost nothing, so far, and I have other things I need to do tonight, so won't search any more now. However, I ran across numerous mentions that, aside from wheat, 80% of US grain production was for animal feed. Could the ethanol push have decreased human corn? Yes, of course. But if we historically aimed 80% of our corn at animal use, and have increased production dramatically over the last several years, it's really unlikely that ethanol has had any huge effect on corn for humans. In fact, if people like Ben Nelson of Nebraska are correct, it's reduced fuel prices somewhat, so possibly lower the costs of producing and transporting human food. And since ethanol production does not reduce the amount of corn used for animal feed, the increase in production has probably kept meat prices lower than they would have been otherwise.
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In theory, I would agree with you DOC, however, I've witnessed corn fields being used as corn fields for several years. Most notably when I lived in Becker and hunted in Granite falls. I very rarely saw any crop rotation.
five years of that, and the field will be only good for pasture for at least another five.......the yield drops every year past two, by about 20%, you just can't replace everything growing corn consumes with fertilizer........there are some crops (like soybeans, a legume), that can be planted longer, but eventually the nitrogen buildup will turn the soil acidic, and you are left with pasture again.
doc
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Interesting take on the issue...
I have been searching for information on corn production, comparisons with other crop production, etc. Have found almost nothing, so far, and I have other things I need to do tonight, so won't search any more now. However, I ran across numerous mentions that, aside from wheat, 80% of US grain production was for animal feed. Could the ethanol push have decreased human corn? Yes, of course. But if we historically aimed 80% of our corn at animal use, and have increased production dramatically over the last several years, it's really unlikely that ethanol has had any huge effect on corn for humans. In fact, if people like Ben Nelson of Nebraska are correct, it's reduced fuel prices somewhat, so possibly lower the costs of producing and transporting human food. And since ethanol production does not reduce the amount of corn used for animal feed, the increase in production has probably kept meat prices lower than they would have been otherwise.
First I'd state that I wouldn't believe much that Ben Nelsen has to say about fuel efficiency and ethanol.....if anything it increases costs by reducing efficiency, and BTW.....corn ain't cheap right now......today's close on fall futures was $7.16 per bushel.
The entire concept of using grain for a petroleum substitute is STUPID.....and unsustainable. It won't work in the long term. Artificially increasing the cost of a commodity through alternative uses will increase costs somewhere else at least equally.....the "law of unintended consequences".
doc
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Corn for biofuel?
Biofuel policy is causing starvation, says Nestlé boss
By Stephen Foley in New York
Wednesday, 23 March 2011
Soaring food inflation is the result of "immoral" policies in the US which divert crops for use in the production of biofuels instead of food, according to the chairman of one of the world's largest food companies.
Peter Brabeck-Letmathe, the chairman of Nestlé, lashed out at the Obama administration for promoting the use of ethanol made from corn, at the expense of hundreds of millions of people struggling to afford everyday basics made from the crop.
Mr Brabeck-Letmathe weighed in to the increasingly acrimonious debate over food price inflation to condemn politicians around the world who seem determined to blame financial speculators instead of tackling underlying imbalances in supply and demand. And he reserved especially pointed remarks for US agriculture secretary Tom Vilsack, who he said was making "absolutely flabbergasting" claims for the country's ability to cope with rising domestic and global demand for corn.
Source (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/biofuel-policy-is-causing-starvation-says-nestl-boss-2250075.html)
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I want to turn the entire NASCAR world upside down by installing a right turn signal in one of the cars that never quits blinking.
I know you got one but you need another!
:hi5:
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Corn for biofuel?
Source (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/biofuel-policy-is-causing-starvation-says-nestl-boss-2250075.html)
Ethanol Facts:
Food vs. Fuel
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Energy costs have a much greater impact on consumer food costs as they impact every single food product on the shelf,†said Urbanchuk. “Energy is required to produce, process, package and ship each food item. Conversely, corn prices impact just a small segment of the food market as not all products rely on corn for production. While it may be more sensational to lay the blame for rising food costs on corn prices, the facts don’t support that conclusion. By a factor of two-to-one, energy prices are the chief factor determining what American families pay at the grocery store.â€
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Ethanol production does not reduce the amount of food available for human consumption. Ethanol is produced from field corn which is primarily fed to livestock and is undigestible by humans in its raw form. The ethanol production process produces not only fuel but valuable livestock feed products.
Every 56-pound bushel of corn used in the dry mill ethanol process yields 18 pounds of distillers grains, a good source of energy and protein for livestock and poultry. Similarly, a bushel of corn in the wet mill ethanol process creates 13.5 pounds of corn gluten feed and 2.6 pounds of high-protein corn gluten meal, as well as corn oil used in food processing.
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It also is important to remember the amount of field corn actually used for human food is just a small fraction of the total corn supply. For example, cereal accounted for just over one percent of total corn use in 2005.
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The overwhelming majority of U.S. corn, including exported corn, feeds livestock—not humans. There is a popular misconception that corn is exported from the U.S. to feed those in malnourished countries, and thus ethanol use will diminish exports to these countries. The truth is the majority of corn exports are used to feed livestock in developed countries.
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Ethanol production from other nontraditional sources continues to grow. An increasing amount of ethanol is produced from nontraditional feedstocks such as waste products from the beverage, food and forestry industries. In the very near future we will also produce ethanol from agricultural residues such as rice straw, sugar cane bagasse and corn stover, municipal solid waste, and energy crops such as switchgrass.
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^I'm not certain MrsSmith if you are, or are not attempting to make a case for ethanol as a fuel.....
If you are, do some research on manufactured efficiency and equivalent costs.......when you can produce ethanol without it consuming more energy to make than it yields in use......AND, when you can deliver it to the pump for 60% of the cost of gasoline (the usage efficiency loss).......come talk to us.....
Otherwise, it's just a "green" pipedream that has no basis in engineering reality.......political BS.
doc
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^I'm not certain MrsSmith if you are, or are not attempting to make a case for ethanol as a fuel.....
If you are, do some research on manufactured efficiency and equivalent costs.......when you can produce ethanol without it consuming more energy to make than it yields in use......AND, when you can deliver it to the pump for 60% of the cost of gasoline (the usage efficiency loss).......come talk to us.....
Otherwise, it's just a "green" pipedream that has no basis in engineering reality.......political BS.
doc
I am not making the case for ethanol as fuel. What I am arguing is ethanol production does not decrease overall food, not for humans and not for animals. Bad weather and high energy prices are causing food to cost more, not the production of a product that does not use the "feed" part of the grain, but rather produces high quality animal feed from the leftovers.
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Reference period: 2007
Source: NASS Crop Production
Data: Total: 403,704,443 Metric Tonnes
Barley -------------------5,229,590 Metric Tonnes 240.00
Corn for Grain ----------307,385,600 Metric Tonnes 12.00
Oats -------------------1,293,790 Metric Tonnes 89.00
Proso Millet ---------------337,470 Metric Tonnes 14.00
Rice -------------------------9,241,173 Metric Tonnes 203.00
Rye ---------------------------202,680 Metric Tonnes 7.00
Sorghum for Grain -----11,998,040 Metric Tonnes 472.00
Wheat, All ------------68,016,100 Metric Tonnes 2.00
Link: See
(Production, Crops) Oilseeds
- Reference period: 2007
Source: NASS Crop Production
Data: Total: 89,504 '000 metric tonnes
89,504,413 Metric Tonnes
Canola 655,470 Metric Tonnes 1.00
Cottonseed 3,901,167 Metric Tonnes 4,300.00
Flaxseed 145,190 Metric Tonnes 5.00
Mustard Seed 18,713 Metric Tonnes 41.00
Peanuts 2,341,626 Metric Tonnes 5.00
Rapeseed 136 Metric Tonnes 300.00
Safflower 140,810 Metric Tonnes 310.00
Soybeans for Beans---------- 80,748,727 Metric Tonnes 2.00
Sunflower 1,552,575 Metric Tonnes 3.00
2003
Source: NASS Crop Production, Field Crops Final Estimates 2002-2007
Data: Total: ---------348,179,760 Metric Tonnes
Barley -------------------6,058,900 Metric Tonnes
Corn for Grain ----------256,229,020 Metric Tonnes
Oats -------------------2,095,710 Metric Tonnes
Proso Millet ---------------259,680 Metric Tonnes
Rice ------------------------- 9,067,180 Metric Tonnes
Rye ---------------------------219,310 Metric Tonnes
Sorghum for Grain ----10,445,440 Metric Tonnes
Wheat, All ----------63,804,520 Metric Tonnes
Link: See
(Production, Crops) Oilseeds
- Reference period: 2003
Source: NASS Crop Production, Field Crops Final Estimates 2002-2007
Data: Total: 77,031 '000 metric tonnes
77,030,740 Metric Tonnes
Canola 685,950 Metric Tonnes
Cottonseed 6,046,020 Metric Tonnes
Flaxseed 267,120 Metric Tonnes
Mustard Seed 35,100 Metric Tonnes
Peanuts 1,879,750 Metric Tonnes
Rapeseed 520 Metric Tonnes
Safflower 124,630 Metric Tonnes
Soybeans for Beans -------------66,782,720 Metric Tonnes
Sunflower 1,208,930 Metric Tonnes
http://webpage.siap.gob.mx/ienglish.php
Crop productions 2003 and 2007. I haven't found any site with newer information. I do see some changes in the highlighted grains. Enough to cause world starvation?
http://www.pecad.fas.usda.gov/cropexplorer/al/usa_crop_prod.htm
Oats and soybeans are grown in the same area as corn, one has declined, the other has risen. Barley production fell despite sharing no land with corn production.
I can't see any honest way to make a case that ethanol is causing human starvation. If anything, the energy policy of our Congress and President have more to do with it. High energy costs at every stage of food production and transportation have far more to do with the final price of food than the portion of corn devoted to a "green" fuel.
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I am not making the case for ethanol as fuel. What I am arguing is ethanol production does not decrease overall food, not for humans and not for animals. Bad weather and high energy prices are causing food to cost more, not the production of a product that does not use the "feed" part of the grain, but rather produces high quality animal feed from the leftovers.
OK....now I understand, you are disputing the premise that using food crops for fuel isn't causing starvation.......I'll agree with that. I DO however, believe that production of a useless fuel like ethanol from grain distorts market prices and changes prices negatively for other commodities. The best example being that ethanol demand for corn will eventually raise the price of beef.
Overall, it is a poor use of both grain crops and productive land resources.
If anything is causing starvation in the world it is much more likely to be a function of price and distribution, not production.
doc
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Bio-diesel will cause hunger....I am living proof.
I was sitting at a stoplight Friday and I could smell the best damn onion rings smell EVER....but no eating joints anywhere close to where I was. As I drove down the road I could still smell them... damn I was getting hungry. Finally passed the fuel delivery truck in front of me and the smell went away. I dropped back behind him due to traffic and the smell was back. Then I saw it, sticker said he was burning biodiesel....America will get fatter and the world will get hungrier.... :lmao: