The Conservative Cave
Current Events => The DUmpster => Topic started by: Toastedturningtidelegs on April 10, 2008, 05:48:29 AM
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This could get good :-)
[ForrestGump (1000+ posts) Thu Apr-10-08 06:36 AM
Original message
When do we stop apologizing for slavery?
I happened to glance at DU tonight and, in LBN, saw a thread about how Nebraska (not a slave state) was not going to apologize for slavery. Some of the responses within kinda boggled my mind and set me to wondering...
Specifically, I began to wonder when a nation should -- if ever -- basically "get over" (yes, I hate the term, but it works) a legacy of slavery. The country I'm thinking about first and foremost is the USA. One poster in the aforementioned thread basically insisted that all Americans owe an apology and that the underpinnings of The American Way were thanks to the legal exploitation of slave labor up 'til the latter part of the nineteenth century. I can't say I especially begrudge an apology, really, even if only collectively as humans, not necessarily as just Americans. Even in its most restrained forms, slavery was (and is) brutality, and we all know that the brutality was often absolutely unrestrained here and abroad.
And what of me, born and raised outside the US and only becoming a US citizen as an adult? I was naturalized in 1993...my ancestry is British (Scottish and English) and so what did I have to do with American slavery? I suppose you could stretch and say that, in trading with the South and backing the CSA during the Civil War, Britain benefited from American slavery, and they certainly did before that, including before 1776 when what is now the eastern USA was a colony. But, still, it's not only a bit of a reach but is not something that I hear people talking much about -- in discussions of apologies and reparations, and similar, it's seemingly always the US that's indicted. And, along the same lines, what of American children who were born in that same year, 1993? American children born any time since slavery, really...for that matter, American children born outside of states that permitted slavery even before the Civil War, and their progeny.
This, of course, does not even begin to consider the thorny issue of racism. For one, though the racism was institutionalized in the South right up through living memory, it was certainly not endemic to the South but was simply harder to discern up north.
Then again, there's that British heritage of mine. The English side of my family tree's very well documented because they were all gentry and nobility (the Scots were decidedly the opposite, wild Highlanders who are barely documented but who I imagine were not likely to be major players in the African slave trade) and there're no slave profiteers there. Colonial adventurers and, further back, Knights of the Crusades, sure -- by this I mean that I'm sure they took part in some dirty deeds for King and Country -- but no slavers in the Americas, Asia, or the Caribbean that I've been able to identify. But, still, the Brits were the ones who brought slavery to the New World, at least slavery that involved captured Africans. And slavery was also practiced by locals in the parts of Africa from which unfortunate Americas-bound slaves originated, and many Africans were active participants in the slave trade. For that matter, slavery was traditionally practiced by at least some native tribes in the Americas.
All this just kind of makes me wonder when a nation or an ethnicity can forgive itself, or be forgiven, for a history of slavery. Is it just a matter of time, with white Americans (mostly of the South) being among the most recent and large-scale overt slaveholders in industrialized nations? And, yes, I say 'overt' because many in this country and in this country's corporations' overseas facilities are essentially slaves, even now, as are many people in other countries around the world (look to the diamond trade for one example, and then there's the worldwide sex-trade slaving industry).
If this sounds very confusing, it's because trying to get all this straight is confusing me terribly, and not just because I haven't had much sleep lately. I'm hoping that someone else will write something here that seems to place it in a sane perspective. Perhaps the best I can come up with right now is that we all, regardless of race, religion, nationality, or age, need to apologize for the existence of slavery, in all its forms. And, better yet, we need to do something concrete to stamp out the remaining vestiges of that despicable practice...
/quote]Hope you're wearing asbestos Gump.There's an explosion coming :-)http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x3136579 (http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x3136579)
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You know, this apology stuff is really stupid.
As a white male, I apologize for slavery. I'm sorry slavery happened, and that people were hurt.
Okay, is that enough? Can everyone sit down and shut up?
The first census in Nebraska was in 1854, and there were 13 slaves in the whole state.
In 1860, the Nebraska territorial government abolished slavery, but it made hardly a ripple, what with just a few hundred people, mostly of mixed French-Indian derivation, in 77,000 square miles. It was a moot issue anyway, as even those 13 slaves from six years earlier were no longer around, or were no longer slaves.
(Native Americans were not counted in the censuses; there were probably 10-20,000 Sioux, Cheyenne, Omaha, Pawnee, Otoe, whatnot around at the time.)
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There too much "white guilt" among Liberals to ever stop the Mea Culpa's.
:whatever:
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Two responses stuck out to me. First off, a sign of ignorance from a DUmmie:
Sadie4629 (826 posts)
Thu Apr-10-08 06:50 AM
Response to Original message
3. One of my cousins did some geneology research
and discovered that we have an ancestor who fought to free the slaves in the Civil War. He was wounded and discharged, but later went back into the Army to continue the fight. Do you think I should be exempt from having to apologize?
...um, that's not why the war was fought.
The other a truly logical post that probably has the alert buttons going off everywhere (There are others that fit into this category.):
DangerDave921 (1000+ posts)
Thu Apr-10-08 07:01 AM
Response to Original message
10. Apology
An apology by a nation is a meaningless, feel-good gesture that does nothing. The current government does not engage in slavery, and there are no slaves anymore to apologize to. So an apology is an exercise in empty rhetoric.
Slavery still goes on today around the world, yet no one seems to want to discuss it. Is that because it's not white americans doing it?
Slavery was an ugly brutal time in America. But at the same time, it was white America - largely Christians - that ended slavery.
:o
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Apologizing isn't going to change anything. Liberals and Blacks that hate whites will say "Well, that's a start". Reparations will be next. Anything that even looks like Blacks haven't pulled even or ahead of whites will be addressed, for the next thousand years. Only complete Crucifixion of whites will appease the White haters out there. The only thing you can do is loose your guilt, don't let white hating blacks intimidate you.
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He loses me on shit like this:
All this just kind of makes me wonder when a nation or an ethnicity can forgive itself, or be forgiven, for a history of slavery. Is it just a matter of time, with white Americans (mostly of the South) being among the most recent and large-scale overt slaveholders in industrialized nations? And, yes, I say 'overt' because many in this country and in this country's corporations' overseas facilities are essentially slaves, even now, as are many people in other countries around the world (look to the diamond trade for one example, and then there's the worldwide sex-trade slaving industry).
Tiptoeing around the fact that there is still 'OVERT' slavery in the African nations that originally had a hand in enslaving other Africans. You want a teeny bit more subtle slavery, what of women in Islamic nations? What goes on with liberals is essentially a lot of wasted energy while people are still suffering in brutality in other nations in the world. And why is that? Because hating the US is easy. Hating whites is easy. The hard and brave thing to do would be to admit that minorities are not angels and confront those issues like present day slavery(happening mostly in nations currently with people of color in them BY people of color) head on. Of course, the brutality they can expect to meet at an individual who will enslave someone today is something they run like beaten dogs from. Their kind of 'bravery' is easy.
The US, industrialized? Not at slavery's introduction here it wasn't. It was an agricultural nation...the industrial revolution was a big point of change to help make slavery obsolete. We'll put aside the abysmal conditions at the start of it, but the inventions that came with it, certainly helped eliminate the need for labor of that kind.
At least he acknowledges Europe's hand in slavery. We are indeed at our very roots their brethren and we learned the use of slave labor and indentured servitude from our forefathers in Europe.
All that aside, context is also very important. To make todays people sensitive to the human rights issues apologize for slavery in a time when it was acceptable not only to the master, but to many slaves ie it was a way of life and even security for some...context is just so important in everything that is discussed historically. My forefathers came over as indentured servants to George Washington--this is how things were at that time. 17th century, 18th century, even 60 years ago were different times with different values. I will not apologize for the behavior of my 18th century forefathers anymore then I will apologize for the behavior of Jewish ancestry that took Jesus to the cross 2000 years ago. I ask for forgiveness for my own sins, not for those of my forefathers.
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Reparations will be next
I'm still waiting for my casino :therock: :-)
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Reparations will be next
I'm still waiting for my casino :therock: :-)
You get like a half or quarter casino right? :tongue: :fuelfire:
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DangerDave921 (1000+ posts)
Thu Apr-10-08 07:01 AM
Response to Original message
10. Apology
An apology by a nation is a meaningless, feel-good gesture that does nothing. The current government does not engage in slavery, and there are no slaves anymore to apologize to. So an apology is an exercise in empty rhetoric.
Slavery still goes on today around the world, yet no one seems to want to discuss it. Is that because it's not white americans doing it?
Slavery was an ugly brutal time in America. But at the same time, it was white America - largely Christians - that ended slavery.
Burn, baby burn.
I shall now go and look at the responses that this brave sould received after throwing water on their bonfire :rotf:
On edit, looks like that comment got ignored :o
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Reparations will be next
I'm still waiting for my casino :therock: :-)
You get like a half or quarter casino right? :tongue: :fuelfire:
Matters not! I still want my full casino share.You white eyes oppressed me for far too long! :hammer: :-)
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jty - you rock! Totally agree with your statement.
I always say, why should I apologize for something that someone else did over a hundred years ago. Is it just because I look like those people? How silly is that? No one alive today owned a slave or was a slave. It's silly and pointless. And it just feeds into the liberal mentality of suffering and victimhood and making someone else pay for something instead of doing an honest day's work and being held accountable for your own success.
Go sell crazy someplace else DUmmies.
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jty - you rock! Totally agree with your statement.
I always say, why should I apologize for something that someone else did over a hundred years ago. Is it just because I look like those people? How silly is that? No one alive today owned a slave or was a slave. It's silly and pointless. And it just feeds into the liberal mentality of suffering and victimhood and making someone else pay for something instead of doing an honest day's work and being held accountable for your own success.
Go sell crazy someplace else DUmmies.
I believe this is (another) way for libtards to shame and bash America.
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jty - you rock! Totally agree with your statement.
I always say, why should I apologize for something that someone else did over a hundred years ago. Is it just because I look like those people? How silly is that? No one alive today owned a slave or was a slave. It's silly and pointless. And it just feeds into the liberal mentality of suffering and victimhood and making someone else pay for something instead of doing an honest day's work and being held accountable for your own success.
Go sell crazy someplace else DUmmies.
I believe this is (another) way for libtards to shame and bash America.
Ding ding ding! Totally agree.
Liberal politicians do everything they can to whip the masses into a frenzy (for their own political gain) and telling people they are "owed" something and are being cheated is just one more way to assure that people rely on the govt for everything. God, they are such communists!! Grrrrrr.....
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I don't apologize for slavery in early America. I had nothing to do with it.
If by chance I am today enjoying some residual benefits from slavery, oh well. My black neighbors are enjoying it too.
Everything in history has lead us to where we are today. If I was a black man living in the God Blessed USA, I would be thankful for whatever circumstances got me here. If it took my ancestors sweat and sacrifice to get me out of a bleak life in a mud hut in Africa, so be it. I would forever be grateful.
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Reparations will be next
I'm still waiting for my casino :therock: :-)
You get like a half or quarter casino right? :tongue: :fuelfire:
Matters not! I still want my full casino share.You white eyes oppressed me for far too long! :hammer: :-)
That's me...the oppressor...all nearly 5'3" of me :lmao:
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jty - you rock! Totally agree with your statement.
I always say, why should I apologize for something that someone else did over a hundred years ago. Is it just because I look like those people? How silly is that? No one alive today owned a slave or was a slave. It's silly and pointless. And it just feeds into the liberal mentality of suffering and victimhood and making someone else pay for something instead of doing an honest day's work and being held accountable for your own success.
Go sell crazy someplace else DUmmies.
Certainly is a judgement born of skin color only isn't it? Funny, I thought judging someone based on the color of their skin was *gasp* racism. :evillaugh:
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^No, see it's okay to judge by skin color when it's taking away from evil whitey and giving to the opressed. :-)
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^No, see it's okay to judge by skin color when it's taking away from evil whitey and giving to the opressed. :-)
I wonder since one of my namesakes was mixed if I can give back to myself? I'm feeling very confused. :evillaugh: :fuelfire:
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Unfortunately, we aren't going to stop hearing about this shit until after the election in November :yawn:....
...as the DUmmies want us to "apologize" all the way to the polls for B.O....
We shall call this the "white guilt card".
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The more pertinent question is: "When should we ever start?"
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I don't apologize for slavery in early America. I had nothing to do with it.
If by chance I am today enjoying some residual benefits from slavery, oh well. My black neighbors are enjoying it too.
Everything in history has lead us to where we are today. If I was a black man living in the God Blessed USA, I would be thankful for whatever circumstances got me here. If it took my ancestors sweat and sacrifice to get me out of a bleak life in a mud hut in Africa, so be it. I would forever be grateful.
Those idiots at DU think everyone white had a silo filled with gold and a pony in every yard. You know what the difference was between an indentured servant and a slave? The slave was more valuable. A slave cost the equivalent of 25K in todays dollars. Are you going to abuse something that cost you 25K? Sure, it happened, but no way do I believe that was the norm. An indentured servant could fall over dead by noon. It wouldn't matter. There would be another "cracker" to step up to the plate so he could feed his family. Another thing people don't realize. Most slave-owners owned no more than 5 slaves. They had to work in the fields WITH the slaves. This plantation BS as the norm, where you had some rich white guy owning 1000 slaves was BS. It was not the norm. I would venture to say that approximately 85% of anyone in this country suffered during it's infancy. Sure, slaves had no choice in the matter when they were forced here. They were, however, given a choice to leave and were given their own country in the process. That country being Liberia. If this country was so f'n bad, they couldn't build enough ships for them to leave because they'd be leaving in droves.
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This always throws them for a loop. :-)
Come to my hometown in the South and you'll see stuff like this -
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v674/kademan/gossip%20and%20celebs/black_confederates2.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v674/kademan/gossip%20and%20celebs/black_confederates.jpg)
Are there racists and assholes? Yep. But they are everywhere and come from all walks of life. The majority of people have GOTTEN OVER IT and live, work, play together.
http://www.blackconfederates.com/
http://www.stonewallbrigade.com/articles_black_confeds.html
http://www.usgennet.org/usa/mo/county/stlouis/blackcs.htm
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I apologize for the 100 Year War. And the Spanish Inquisition (no one ever expected it). And for the Aztec sacrificing. Oh, and African tribal slavery.
I am as responsible for those as much as I am for Western European slavery.
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^No, see it's okay to judge by skin color when it's taking away from evil whitey and giving to the opressed. :-)
I wonder since one of my namesakes was mixed if I can give back to myself? I'm feeling very confused. :evillaugh: :fuelfire:
You're confused! I have ancestors that fought on both sides...I don't know whether to apologize or expect a thank you note.
Cindie
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^No, see it's okay to judge by skin color when it's taking away from evil whitey and giving to the opressed. :-)
I wonder since one of my namesakes was mixed if I can give back to myself? I'm feeling very confused. :evillaugh: :fuelfire:
You're confused! I have ancestors that fought on both sides...I don't know whether to apologize or expect a thank you note.
Cindie
Should we apologize to ourselves? :devious: :therock: :clueless: Maybe I'll just by the colored portion a coffee or something, but what if I say to make the coffee light, is that wrong :thatsright: Ugh, the confusion... :naughty:
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^No, see it's okay to judge by skin color when it's taking away from evil whitey and giving to the opressed. :-)
I wonder since one of my namesakes was mixed if I can give back to myself? I'm feeling very confused. :evillaugh: :fuelfire:
You're confused! I have ancestors that fought on both sides...I don't know whether to apologize or expect a thank you note.
Cindie
Should we apologize to ourselves? :devious: :therock: :clueless: Maybe I'll just by the colored portion a coffee or something, but what if I say to make the coffee light, is that wrong :thatsright: Ugh, the confusion... :naughty:
Blacks would be apologizing to other blacks, too, since many were fathered by white slave owners.
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^No, see it's okay to judge by skin color when it's taking away from evil whitey and giving to the opressed. :-)
I wonder since one of my namesakes was mixed if I can give back to myself? I'm feeling very confused. :evillaugh: :fuelfire:
You're confused! I have ancestors that fought on both sides...I don't know whether to apologize or expect a thank you note.
Cindie
Should we apologize to ourselves? :devious: :therock: :clueless: Maybe I'll just by the colored portion a coffee or something, but what if I say to make the coffee light, is that wrong :thatsright: Ugh, the confusion... :naughty:
Blacks would be apologizing to other blacks, too, since many were fathered by white slave owners.
Not to mention the forefathers of the remaining tribes in Africa...oh this is so confusing...Did the Romans apologize to the Jews yet for enslaving them thousands of years ago? I think Italians need to pay..just sayin' :fuelfire: :fuelfire:
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Obama should apologize to himself, on national TV... :lmao:
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Obama should apologize to himself, on national TV... :lmao:
That's what I'm talking about! :lmao: