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Current Events => The DUmpster => Topic started by: Tess Anderson on February 02, 2011, 02:24:50 PM

Title: "Millions of Americans Live Without Running Water, Believe It or Not " (Tsiyu)
Post by: Tess Anderson on February 02, 2011, 02:24:50 PM
long thread: link (http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=439x324359)

Poorer than thou, she owns the property and horses:

Quote
Tsiyu  (1000+ posts)        Tue Feb-01-11 04:55 PM
Original message
Millions of Americans Live Without Running Water, Believe It or Not
 Edited on Tue Feb-01-11 05:07 PM by Tsiyu
I know, because I'm one of them. And so are other DUers

I'm not writing this to claim I have it as bad as the poor living on the streets in America (rates of indoor plumbing are a moot point for them, since they have no "indoors") or the poor in Third World countries.

I have heat, a roof over my head, no TV but a Shortwave/AM/FM radio and Dialup internet (which made researching this post take a looooong time.) I don't always have enough to eat, but there are people who feed me when that happens.

I am writing this because there seems to be such a denial of reality among many DUers about the lives of the poor in this nation.

Currently, around 2 million Americans are living without running water or with insufficient running water.

Here is a story about one community struggling (bold mine)
 


 <snip>

My point is, if you're going to discuss "poverty in America" on DU, please do some research.

You don't have to care. That's your call. But real poverty in America is a fact that you would do well to study if you wish to truly understand the issues facing the poor.



Title: Re: "Millions of Americans Live Without Running Water, Believe It or Not " (Tsiyu)
Post by: Rebel on February 02, 2011, 02:26:52 PM
I can guarantee you those numbers come from the difference between county population and county water customers. My wife's grandfather would fall into that category. He has two wells and a pond stocked full of catfish.

Never trust a liberal to do a "study".
Title: Re: "Millions of Americans Live Without Running Water, Believe It or Not " (Tsiyu)
Post by: ExGeeEye on February 02, 2011, 02:42:28 PM
By that standard, I went without running water frm 1978-1983, and since my Mom still lives in that house, she's been going without it for (gasp) 32 years!  In America!

Horrors!

Of course, sitting atop a flowing well (the pump exists only to boost the pressure so we can take showers and fill the kitchen sink in less than 5 minutes), residents of that house have had literal "running water" since before the city was incorporated, let along installed the mains.

Another example of the liberal or statist attitude "if Mommy Government doesn't do it, it isn't being done."
Title: Re: "Millions of Americans Live Without Running Water, Believe It or Not " (Tsiyu)
Post by: Rebel on February 02, 2011, 02:45:14 PM
By that standard, I went without running water frm 1978-1983, and since my Mom still lives in that house, she's been going without it for (gasp) 32 years!  In America!

Horrors!

Of course, sitting atop a flowing well (the pump exists only to boost the pressure so we can take showers and fill the kitchen sink in less than 5 minutes), residents of that house have had literal "running water" since before the city was incorporated, let along installed the mains.

Another example of the liberal or statist attitude "if Mommy Government doesn't do it, it isn't being done."

Liberals are useless. When Pop's last well slowed, and started to age, he capped it off with one of these for novelty purposes and for the grandkids:

(http://www.antiquemystique.com/images/6178_jpg.jpg)



..and had another one drilled. No government involvement whatsoever. "Maybe" a county inspector.
Title: Re: "Millions of Americans Live Without Running Water, Believe It or Not " (Tsiyu)
Post by: DefiantSix on February 02, 2011, 02:54:21 PM
Quote
Tsiyu  (1000+ posts)        Tue Feb-01-11 04:55 PM
Original message
Millions of Americans Live Without Running Water, Believe It or Not
 Edited on Tue Feb-01-11 05:07 PM by Tsiyu
I know, because I'm one of them. And so are other DUers blah... blah... blah... more blathering drivel...

Wait until Bobo the Hobo finds this thread.  She can one-up the hell out of you, bitch:  Not only does she not have running water in her Buick, but she's [GASP!!] homeless, too.
Title: Re: "Millions of Americans Live Without Running Water, Believe It or Not " (Tsiyu)
Post by: GOBUCKS on February 02, 2011, 02:56:40 PM
The DUmbass has made the mistake that most DUmbass democrats would make. He confuses "running water" with "city water". I lived for nearly 20 years in a development of fine homes much nicer than anything an DUmp democrat would have, none of which had city water or sewer. Submersible pumps and septic systems worked perfectly, and we never paid one penny for water or sewer, beyond electricity for the pump. In DUmp terms, we were living without running water, but DUmp democrats live in urban hellholes, and so have no conception of how the real world lives.
Title: Re: "Millions of Americans Live Without Running Water, Believe It or Not " (Tsiyu)
Post by: Rebel on February 02, 2011, 03:01:08 PM
Just saw the article. It's about a place on "Ruleville to Drew Road". This is between Ruleville and Drew, Mississippi, about 3 miles apart. Archie Manning is from Drew, and a TON of my family is from Drew and Ruleville. They had no county water. They all had wells (We're talking the delta of Mississippi here.)

Hey DUmbasses, how the hell do you think Americans made it without a government tit to suck?
Title: Re: "Millions of Americans Live Without Running Water, Believe It or Not " (Tsiyu)
Post by: BlueStateSaint on February 02, 2011, 03:15:15 PM
Hey DUmbasses, how the hell do you think Americans made it without a government tit to suck?

Kev, that's one thing they haven't a snowball's chance in Hell of getting.
Title: Re: "Millions of Americans Live Without Running Water, Believe It or Not " (Tsiyu)
Post by: Karin on February 02, 2011, 03:20:08 PM
I recall another liberal study, which came to the conclusion that some alarmingly enormous number of children were homeless in America.  Turns out they didn't "count" mobile homes in trailer parks as a "home."   Can you imagine this mindset?  Oh, and I think they didn't "count" grandkids living with their grandparents. 

Title: Re: "Millions of Americans Live Without Running Water, Believe It or Not " (Tsiyu)
Post by: jukin on February 02, 2011, 04:00:28 PM
The arrogance of ignorance is strong in this DUmbass.
Title: Re: "Millions of Americans Live Without Running Water, Believe It or Not " (Tsiyu)
Post by: JohnnyReb on February 02, 2011, 04:13:15 PM
Daddy made sure we had running water, "Hey boy. Take this bucket and run get your Momma some water."
Title: Re: "Millions of Americans Live Without Running Water, Believe It or Not " (Tsiyu)
Post by: DumbAss Tanker on February 02, 2011, 04:17:45 PM
Hey, I grew up without it from about age 10 until my late teens.  The details are involved and boring, but it really isn't that big a deal.  If you have shelter and heat, not being able to get potable water on tap is a relatively minor inconvenience that isn't tough to work around at all.
Title: Re: "Millions of Americans Live Without Running Water, Believe It or Not " (Tsiyu)
Post by: seahorse513 on February 02, 2011, 04:22:27 PM
When I think of no running water, I think of a person getting the butt up off the couch(gasp) going to well or another waterway outside their home(lack of indoor plumbing), filling a pail with water and bringing it inside. How many people still do this in this country?
Title: Re: "Millions of Americans Live Without Running Water, Believe It or Not " (Tsiyu)
Post by: GOBUCKS on February 02, 2011, 05:06:20 PM
Oh, and I think they didn't "count" grandkids living with their grandparents.
So virtually all black kids are homeless.
But I thought homeless people went back to being winos as soon as President Bush left office. Homeless people only exist during Republican administrations. Except bobo the hobo. She remains homeless.
Title: Re: "Millions of Americans Live Without Running Water, Believe It or Not " (Tsiyu)
Post by: Rebel on February 02, 2011, 05:47:05 PM
When I think of no running water, I think of a person getting the butt up off the couch(gasp) going to well or another waterway outside their home(lack of indoor plumbing), filling a pail with water and bringing it inside. How many people still do this in this country?

Wells these days use a pumping system that connects to a home's internal plumbing. There's very little difference between city water, and well water...other than quality. Well is better. Problem is, it takes an individual money to purchase the pump and have the well drilled. DUmmies can't fathom that. They want the government doing everything for them. ...then again, guess what the wife's Pop's water bill is per month, disregarding the small amount of electricity used.  :wink:
Title: Re: "Millions of Americans Live Without Running Water, Believe It or Not " (Tsiyu)
Post by: MrsSmith on February 02, 2011, 06:05:01 PM
When I think of no running water, I think of a person getting the butt up off the couch(gasp) going to well or another waterway outside their home(lack of indoor plumbing), filling a pail with water and bringing it inside. How many people still do this in this country?
Even those without wells have "running" water.  The usual method is to haul a good-sized tank somewhere and fill it, then park it uphill from the house (or trailer, which I guess doesn't count as a house), and hook the pipe or hose back up. 

Back when my great-grandparents homesteaded the place my brother lives, they dug a well, built a (cistern, I think it was called), and piped water to the house.  The overflow of the cistern was used to water trees, they had a nice orchard full of fruit and nut trees.  Of course, this was 100 years ago, way before Uncle Sam was responsible for making sure we all ate correctly, had hot and cold running water, wore our seatbelts, bought our health insurance, and wiped our butts.   ::)
Title: Re: "Millions of Americans Live Without Running Water, Believe It or Not " (Tsiyu)
Post by: NHSparky on February 02, 2011, 06:20:21 PM
Count me among those without "running water".  Well.  Septic.  And once it goes through the filter, it's better than any town water I've ever had.
Title: Re: "Millions of Americans Live Without Running Water, Believe It or Not " (Tsiyu)
Post by: Vagabond on February 02, 2011, 06:49:27 PM
Geez, every time I used to go hiking in the mountains I lacked running water, sometimes for days.  How was I supposed to know the government had to provide water at my remote campsite for me?
Title: Re: "Millions of Americans Live Without Running Water, Believe It or Not " (Tsiyu)
Post by: true_blood on February 02, 2011, 07:00:20 PM
So,...what does the primitive want? Free running water?
Sure, just add that to the free cell phones, welfare checks and soon to be free health care for all. I'm all over it. ::) :whatever:
Title: Re: "Millions of Americans Live Without Running Water, Believe It or Not " (Tsiyu)
Post by: seahorse513 on February 02, 2011, 07:42:08 PM
one thing between a helping hand, and an expected handout, is how can people live with themselves when they expect the government to provide everything???
Title: Re: "Millions of Americans Live Without Running Water, Believe It or Not " (Tsiyu)
Post by: Rebel on February 02, 2011, 09:37:34 PM
Even those without wells have "running" water.  The usual method is to haul a good-sized tank somewhere and fill it, then park it uphill from the house (or trailer, which I guess doesn't count as a house), and hook the pipe or hose back up. 

That's how they do it on the mountains directly north of Fairbanks, Ak. ....but, oh the horror, it takes work. DUmmies don't do work.
Title: Re: "Millions of Americans Live Without Running Water, Believe It or Not " (Tsiyu)
Post by: longview on February 02, 2011, 09:45:32 PM
What's the big deal?

It's just part of life to haul water in many, many places here in the west.  Really, we don't mind.  Keep your damn government regs and interference and taxes.

And we're not poor.  The DUmmy can keep her judgments, too.
Title: Re: "Millions of Americans Live Without Running Water, Believe It or Not " (Tsiyu)
Post by: diesel driver on February 03, 2011, 06:56:55 AM
Count me among those without "running water".  Well.  Septic.  And once it goes through the filter, it's better than any town water I've ever had.

Same here.  How about that, I was "poor" and didn't know it.  Sheet far!

The last link the DUmmie posted in the OP had a study about the poverty level in McDowell County, WV.  My wife is from there, so I've seen this so-called "poverty".  The greatest thing that could be done for these fine folks is DEREGULATE COAL MINING!  Coal is the lifeblood of McDowell County.  There are very few mines operating today there because it's not cost effective to go after some of the more marginal deposits of coal.    


Another link states that although they are "poor", almost 8 in 10 own their home.  Well, DUH!  They probably built it themselves!  Or else, it's the "family home", built by Grandpa back in the 1900's when he and Grandma married and started their lives together.  I'm not talking cardboard, duct tape, and baling wire either.  They are very well built, all without the aid of "building codes", etc.  Go figure. 

" Sixty seven percent of the households have no wastewater treatment..."

Yes they do.  It's called a SEPTIC TANK.  Look it up, DUmbass!

 :thatsright:  

DAMN, the stupid is strong in these "people" (and I use that term loosely).
Title: Re: "Millions of Americans Live Without Running Water, Believe It or Not " (Tsiyu)
Post by: diesel driver on February 03, 2011, 07:11:01 AM
Even those without wells have "running" water.  The usual method is to haul a good-sized tank somewhere and fill it, then park it uphill from the house (or trailer, which I guess doesn't count as a house), and hook the pipe or hose back up. 


If you lived near a stream or a brook with enough water flow, you could use a "ram pump" to pump water into the tank.  I have one here I used to use to water cows from a nearby stream.  It takes about 20 gallons of waterflow to pump a gallon, but it's simple, maintence free, requires no electricity.

I wouldn't use my stream water to drink, however.  Neighbor has too many "bovines" upstream.   :naughty:
Title: Re: "Millions of Americans Live Without Running Water, Believe It or Not " (Tsiyu)
Post by: whiffleball on February 03, 2011, 07:13:36 AM
The DUmbass has made the mistake that most DUmbass democrats would make. He confuses "running water" with "city water".

I've lived near homes within the last 6 years in quite nice areas that would qualify under the terms this DUmmie set out.  There were at least 4 homes near me on the downhill slope of the mountain whose water was underground springfed.  Without an electric pump their pressure was nothing to write home about, but they still had water. 

There were a few smaller places around whose owners were doing the off grid thing and used handpumps to access the closest aquifer.  They wanted to live that way.
Title: Re: "Millions of Americans Live Without Running Water, Believe It or Not " (Tsiyu)
Post by: JohnnyReb on February 03, 2011, 07:21:18 AM
If you lived near a stream or a brook with enough water flow, you could use a "ram pump" to pump water into the tank.  I have one here I used to use to water cows from a nearby stream.  It takes about 20 gallons of waterflow to pump a gallon, but it's simple, maintence free, requires no electricity.

I wouldn't use my stream water to drink, however.  Neighbor has too many "bovines" upstream.   :naughty:

There used to be a lot of those old "ram pumps" around here. They were used to pump water into a tank in the upper part of old homes for kitchen/bath water.

I wouldn't drink the city water in my high school building because I knew what had been in it. The stream that furnished the city water ran thru our pasture.... :-)

Title: Re: "Millions of Americans Live Without Running Water, Believe It or Not " (Tsiyu)
Post by: diesel driver on February 03, 2011, 07:21:31 AM
I've lived near homes within the last 6 years in quite nice areas that would qualify under the terms this DUmmie set out.  There were at least 4 homes near me on the downhill slope of the mountain whose water was underground springfed.  Without an electric pump their pressure was nothing to write home about, but they still had water. 

There were a few smaller places around whose owners were doing the off grid thing and used handpumps to access the closest aquifer.  They wanted to live that way.

That is how the DUmmies want the rest of us to live as well.  They call it "living green" or "being one with nature" or some such shit as that.  Now, it's "living in poverty". 

I wish DUmmies would either make up their minds, or aquire a mind to make up.  Their stupidity is giving me a headache.
Title: Re: "Millions of Americans Live Without Running Water, Believe It or Not " (Tsiyu)
Post by: diesel driver on February 03, 2011, 07:25:07 AM
There used to be a lot of those old "ram pumps" around here. They were used to pump water into a tank in the upper part of old homes for kitchen/bath water.

I wouldn't drink the city water in my high school building because I knew what had been in it. The stream that furnished the city water ran thru our pasture.... :-)



 :rotf:  I know what you mean.  I've always had spring/well water all my life, still do. 

My uncle owned the land upstream from the town's water treatment plant, and he had a significant number of beef cattle pastured there.   :naughty:
Title: Re: "Millions of Americans Live Without Running Water, Believe It or Not " (Tsiyu)
Post by: Karin on February 03, 2011, 07:45:24 AM
Quote
They call it "living green" or "being one with nature" or some such shit as that.  Now, it's "living in poverty". 

Good point, and only one of the millions of contradictions surrounding the leftie libs. 

Around here, one only has to drive 15 minutes and you'll encounter people still using outhouses.  They're called The Amish.  (Non-Amish still do, too for that matter, we've got some strange birds). 
Title: Re: "Millions of Americans Live Without Running Water, Believe It or Not " (Tsiyu)
Post by: Rebel on February 03, 2011, 07:48:47 AM
Good point, and only one of the millions of contradictions surrounding the leftie libs. 

Around here, one only has to drive 15 minutes and you'll encounter people still using outhouses.  They're called The Amish.  (Non-Amish still do, too for that matter, we've got some strange birds). 

We have Mennonites here right outside of Augusta. They can build a damn good home.

....then to counter the good, you have the Irish Travelers (Gypsies) right across the river in South Carolina. They can pour you a 2" thick driveway and tell you not to drive on it for 3 days (enough for them to leave town). Once you drive on it, it cracks like peanut brittle. Bunch of freaks.
Title: Re: "Millions of Americans Live Without Running Water, Believe It or Not " (Tsiyu)
Post by: JohnnyReb on February 03, 2011, 07:59:38 AM
We have Mennonites here right outside of Augusta. They can build a damn good home.

....then to counter the good, you have the Irish Travelers (Gypsies) right across the river in South Carolina. They can pour you a 2" thick driveway and tell you not to drive on it for 3 days (enough for them to leave town). Once you drive on it, it cracks like peanut brittle. Bunch of freaks.

....or paint your tin top with silver seal coat cut with diesel fuel. First good rain and it's gone....or do you an asphalt drive with some left over from another drive(uh huh, sure)....same thing with shingling your roof....all while their women and children are robbing WAL-MART blind.

I know spring is near when they pass thru here heading out to fleece the world.
Title: Re: "Millions of Americans Live Without Running Water, Believe It or Not " (Tsiyu)
Post by: Karin on February 03, 2011, 08:12:11 AM
Wow!  We don't have any of those, I've never encountered one in my life.  On occasion, the DUmmies over there will lament the plight of the "Romas."  They've brought every trouble in the world down on themselves. 
Title: Re: "Millions of Americans Live Without Running Water, Believe It or Not " (Tsiyu)
Post by: Rebel on February 03, 2011, 08:18:55 AM
....or paint your tin top with silver seal coat cut with diesel fuel. First good rain and it's gone....or do you an asphalt drive with some left over from another drive(uh huh, sure)....same thing with shingling your roof....all while their women and children are robbing WAL-MART blind.

I know spring is near when they pass thru here heading out to fleece the world.

Hell, they live 5 miles outside of Augusta in Edgefield County at Murphy's Estates, SC.

This little girl:

(http://www.popcrunch.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/07/jonben-1.jpg)


Looks plain to their 5 year olds.
Title: Re: "Millions of Americans Live Without Running Water, Believe It or Not " (Tsiyu)
Post by: JohnnyReb on February 03, 2011, 08:24:34 AM
Hell, they live 5 miles outside of Augusta in Edgefield County at Murphy's Estates, SC.

This little girl:

(http://www.popcrunch.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/07/jonben-1.jpg)


Looks plain to their 5 year olds.

Yeah, they parade them around for marriage at 12 years old.... only 3 to 6 years above Muslim standards.
Title: Re: "Millions of Americans Live Without Running Water, Believe It or Not " (Tsiyu)
Post by: NHSparky on February 03, 2011, 10:23:15 AM
....or paint your tin top with silver seal coat cut with diesel fuel. First good rain and it's gone....or do you an asphalt drive with some left over from another drive(uh huh, sure)....same thing with shingling your roof....all while their women and children are robbing WAL-MART blind.

I know spring is near when they pass thru here heading out to fleece the world.

Yup--we get those up here with the offers to reseal driveways.  That's always good for a laugh when someone can't get their garage doors open after they're done and skipped town.
Title: Re: "Millions of Americans Live Without Running Water, Believe It or Not " (Tsiyu)
Post by: Karin on February 03, 2011, 10:52:57 AM
Who is the hell is taking them up on their offers? 
Title: Re: "Millions of Americans Live Without Running Water, Believe It or Not " (Tsiyu)
Post by: NHSparky on February 03, 2011, 10:57:36 AM
Who is the hell is taking them up on their offers? 

In a lot of cases it's the elderly who get duped.  Another common scam around here is the, "Oh, the bank didn't take your check, can you write me another one" bit.  It's amazing the number of people who fall for it.
Title: Re: "Millions of Americans Live Without Running Water, Believe It or Not " (Tsiyu)
Post by: Rebel on February 03, 2011, 10:59:45 AM
I think it's a damn shame that I have to keep taking my grill' propane bottle and exchanging it for a new one. That's a travesty. I have to actually do it myself? Screw that. The government needs to come in and install a gas line directly to my grill. I demand it. GAS PIPE NOW!
Title: Re: "Millions of Americans Live Without Running Water, Believe It or Not " (Tsiyu)
Post by: GOBUCKS on February 03, 2011, 12:10:22 PM
Yup--we get those up here with the offers to reseal driveways.  That's always good for a laugh when someone can't get their garage doors open after they're done and skipped town.
When I was a kid, most summers a long caravan of gypsies would come through town. They drove big Cadillacs, pulling little hump-backed camping trailers, like the one poor, stupid Beth lives in. The police would meet them at the edge of town, and escort them to the other side, not allowing them to stop. Sometimes they would camp outside of town, but they were closely watched by the police and I never saw one of them in town "on the hoof". The grownups told us they would steal babies, and that they ate robins, so they were pretty scary. Then the first time I was in Europe, I found out they were as bad as advertised the first time a bunch of gypsy kids tried to swarm me in Rome. They really are vermin.
Title: Re: "Millions of Americans Live Without Running Water, Believe It or Not " (Tsiyu)
Post by: AllosaursRus on February 03, 2011, 12:18:08 PM
When I think of no running water, I think of a person getting the butt up off the couch(gasp) going to well or another waterway outside their home(lack of indoor plumbing), filling a pail with water and bringing it inside. How many people still do this in this country?

I do it every time I go campin' or huntin'! I'll bet they count all us hunters in that "study"! I'm depraved and downtrodden! Whoda thunk?
Title: Re: "Millions of Americans Live Without Running Water, Believe It or Not " (Tsiyu)
Post by: AllosaursRus on February 03, 2011, 12:33:13 PM
Wells these days use a pumping system that connects to a home's internal plumbing. There's very little difference between city water, and well water...other than quality. Well is better. Problem is, it takes an individual money to purchase the pump and have the well drilled. DUmmies can't fathom that. They want the government doing everything for them. ...then again, guess what the wife's Pop's water bill is per month, disregarding the small amount of electricity used.  :wink:

I had a tank in the ground that I hauled water into about once every two weeks about 10 years ago, but once we started to increase the livestock, we drilled a well.

Stuff was okay for the livestock, but had way to much iron in it for the house. Had to put a water softner in.

I was on well water until about 5 years ago when the local Co Op came by with artiesian from about 4 miles away.

Just replaced my old iron septic tank for one of those new fangled concrete jobs two years ago.

Guess I'm only half way there from livin' in poverty!
Title: Re: "Millions of Americans Live Without Running Water, Believe It or Not " (Tsiyu)
Post by: seahorse513 on February 03, 2011, 06:27:21 PM
I do it every time I go campin' or huntin'! I'll bet they count all us hunters in that "study"! I'm depraved and downtrodden! Whoda thunk?

Hey that's fun to rough it!!! pitchin a tent, digging a toilet, washing up in the creek. Builds character!!!

however, IMHO people with large campers(nothing wrong with these if one can afford it) that is not roughing it.... :-)
Title: Re: "Millions of Americans Live Without Running Water, Believe It or Not " (Tsiyu)
Post by: MrsSmith on February 03, 2011, 06:43:55 PM
If you lived near a stream or a brook with enough water flow, you could use a "ram pump" to pump water into the tank.  I have one here I used to use to water cows from a nearby stream.  It takes about 20 gallons of waterflow to pump a gallon, but it's simple, maintence free, requires no electricity.

I wouldn't use my stream water to drink, however.  Neighbor has too many "bovines" upstream.   :naughty:
Above-ground water in Kansas is seldom potable these days, too many critters and too much nitrogen in the fertilizers.  The well water at my brother's house is absolutely the best water in the world.  I'm sure Uncle Sam will have to find a way to outlaw people pumping water out of the ground though...just like he'll replace petroleum taxes with a tax on the amount of sun that falls on your house/property. 
Title: Re: "Millions of Americans Live Without Running Water, Believe It or Not " (Tsiyu)
Post by: MrsSmith on February 03, 2011, 06:54:45 PM
That is how the DUmmies want the rest of us to live as well.  They call it "living green" or "being one with nature" or some such shit as that.  Now, it's "living in poverty". 

I wish DUmmies would either make up their minds, or aquire a mind to make up.  Their stupidity is giving me a headache.
Oh, the difference is easy to tell...if you're doing it on your own dollar, you're living in horrible poverty.  If you're doing it with government money, you're living green.  :rotf: :rotf: