The Conservative Cave
Interests => Religious Discussions => Topic started by: vesta111 on November 14, 2010, 09:38:42 AM
-
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/40178937/ns/us_news-the_new_york_times
Meat Ball Annie, the woman that made lamp shades of prisoners tattoos lived for 30 years in NYC or so I was told. WTF good was she to do with helping America unless she was related to some high profile polition here.
We of the next generations of Americans have heard these storys for years.
Understanderable that we wanted the scientists, millitary and medical personal after the war, but the Evil people that guarded the camps or dropped the gas canisters into the shower rooms , this I cannot understand.
Most of these deamons have died of old age with no repercussions for their deadly deeds. Those that still live are in their 80 ies, have escaped justice and will die with no sin if they confess to a priest---Yuck---
I wonder about the gay Jews, the Jehovaa Wittnesses, the Gypsys and all that died due to these ideas.---Will they go to Hell and the Monsters that killed them go to heaven for their belief in Jesus.??
This is the very reason I question Christinity, all people about to die will repent for their sins, but the people that have never heard of Jesus will go to Hell.
I have gotten in allot of trouble for asking these questions to Christian Ministers and Priests.
How could the Protestants in Germany go to Midnight Mass to celebrate the birth of the Jews and watch as HIS people were taken out ,placed on trains for work camps--so called-- and beaten and shot.
-
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/40178937/ns/us_news-the_new_york_times
Meat Ball Annie, the woman that made lamp shades of prisoners tattoos lived for 30 years in NYC or so I was told. WTF good was she to do with helping America unless she was related to some high profile polition here.
We of the next generations of Americans have heard these storys for years.
Understanderable that we wanted the scientists, millitary and medical personal after the war, but the Evil people that guarded the camps or dropped the gas canisters into the shower rooms , this I cannot understand.
Most of these deamons have died of old age with no repercussions for their deadly deeds. Those that still live are in their 80 ies, have escaped justice and will die with no sin if they confess to a priest---Yuck---
I wonder about the gay Jews, the Jehovaa Wittnesses, the Gypsys and all that died due to these ideas.---Will they go to Hell and the Monsters that killed them go to heaven for their belief in Jesus.??
This is the very reason I question Christinity, all people about to die will repent for their sins, but the people that have never heard of Jesus will go to Hell.
I have gotten in allot of trouble for asking these questions to Christian Ministers and Priests.
How could the Protestants in Germany go to Midnight Mass to celebrate the birth of the Jews and watch as HIS people were taken out ,placed on trains for work camps--so called-- and beaten and shot.
This is an interesting challenge to Christianity. Christians like to claim that, if Christianity is true, than we live in a perfectly just universe. Yet its true, that under Christianity, the lifelong rapist, murderer or thief can pass through the pearly gates all because of one genuine moment of belief or repentance. Conversely, it could be the lifelong, morally-upstanding, Godly man who ends up in Hell for eternity, all because of one sincere moment of disbelief.
This clearly stands contrary to what most of us believe about justice and how we tend to practice it. We don't let murders off the hook because they may have genuine moments of remorse. No justice system in the world places such a high premium on an otherwise inconsequential act of belief or disbelief. So Christian "justice" just doesn't seem like any justice that I can make sense of.
So with that in mind, it always rings a little hollow when a Christian makes the claim that God ensures a just universe. God's justice seems totally bewildering and incomprehensible. If its totally bewildering and incomprehensible, why should I feel comforted by it?
-
This is an interesting challenge to Christianity. Christians like to claim that, if Christianity is true, than we live in a perfectly just universe. Yet its true, that under Christianity, the lifelong rapist, murderer or thief can pass through the pearly gates all because of one genuine moment of belief or repentance. Conversely, it could be the lifelong, morally-upstanding, Godly man who ends up in Hell for eternity, all because of one sincere moment of disbelief.
This clearly stands contrary to what most of us believe about justice and how we tend to practice it. We don't let murders off the hook because they may have genuine moments of remorse. No justice system in the world places such a high premium on an otherwise inconsequential act of belief or disbelief. So Christian "justice" just doesn't seem like any justice that I can make sense of.
So with that in mind, it always rings a little hollow when a Christian makes the claim that God ensures a just universe. God's justice seems totally bewildering and incomprehensible. If its totally bewildering and incomprehensible, why should I feel comforted by it?
So with that in mind, it always rings a little hollow when a Christian makes the claim that God ensures a just universe. God's justice seems totally bewildering and incomprehensible. If its totally bewildering and incomprehensible, why should I feel comforted by it?[quote/]
Where do you get the idea that God insures a just universe?
Where was the Justice for the Christians that put their lives on the line to hide complete stranger that were Jews from the Government. They were breaking the law you know, The penalty was death for the intire family man women and children. These good people died for their beliefs, they were Hero's.
To open a bag of worms here, Christians are willing to die for their faith, [some will]. Christianity is more of a personal faith then most, I was taught to do good for it's own sake and not to gain anything for my self be it fortune or an afterlife.
Now the Muslims, they also will die for their faith but it is conditional on " How many virgins did you say I will get when I die" ?
Here is something to think about , can you explain the act of baptism to me and why it is so important to the Christian Faith.??
We believe John the Baptist was the Cousin of Jesus, so how and why was he to Baptise a man born without original sin from a mother who was also born without sin.?
-
So with that in mind, it always rings a little hollow when a Christian makes the claim that God ensures a just universe. God's justice seems totally bewildering and incomprehensible. If its totally bewildering and incomprehensible, why should I feel comforted by it?[quote/]
Where do you get the idea that God insures a just universe?
That is generally a Christian doctrine - God has perfect justice, mercy, etc. That perfect justice obviously isn't fulfilled in this world, but will be in the next, or so it goes.
And I was really agreeing with you, that it doesn't seem like perfect justice, if murderers are getting into heaven, and mostly good people are (even some of the time) going to hell.
-
This is an interesting challenge to Christianity. Christians like to claim that, if Christianity is true, than we live in a perfectly just universe. Yet its true, that under Christianity, the lifelong rapist, murderer or thief can pass through the pearly gates all because of one genuine moment of belief or repentance. Conversely, it could be the lifelong, morally-upstanding, Godly man who ends up in Hell for eternity, all because of one sincere moment of disbelief.This clearly stands contrary to what most of us believe about justice and how we tend to practice it. We don't let murders off the hook because they may have genuine moments of remorse. No justice system in the world places such a high premium on an otherwise inconsequential act of belief or disbelief. So Christian "justice" just doesn't seem like any justice that I can make sense of.
So with that in mind, it always rings a little hollow when a Christian makes the claim that God ensures a just universe. God's justice seems totally bewildering and incomprehensible. If its totally bewildering and incomprehensible, why should I feel comforted by it?
With that you show your complete ignorance of the topic you are trying to discuss and to disparage.
It is a life long of disbelieve that condemns a person to their fate not a single one.
Not going to debate all sects of Chrstianity or beliefs,just my own and that being Salvation once gained through acceptence of Jesus as the Saviour and His willing sacrifice it can not be lost.
-
The following is based on my understanding of Christian doctrine. I am basing my eternal hope on it.
1. "...man is destined to die once, and after that to face judgment, so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many people... (Hebrews 9:27-28, excerpted)
We are all* going to die. What we have done with Christ in life will determine our eternal destiny.
++ It will not matter how we died, whether we were murdered, or had cancer, or lived to 107 and just didn't wake up from the afternoon nap.
++ It will not matter if we accepted Christ's salvation in youth, or age, or on death row.
++ What we did in life will not matter-- if we accept salvation. It may be an indicator, when examining the lives of others, whether it is likely that an individual accepted Christ. We are not competent to draw definite conclusions on the subject with regard to anyone, though a fair degree of certainty
++ Accepting Christ carries with it repentance of sin and the resolve, with God's help, to turn away from sin. Such help is always given to those who truly seek it. It does not make the person perfect; as a dieter will have a piece of cake, so a saved person will have a flash of anger, a moment of lust, a dishonest word, or worse. It is more likely for the committed Christian to be visibly punished in life for sin, because he is saved in eternity, and because the person in sinning has brought disrepute upon the Name of Jesus. (You have thought less of Christians because you knew of one who sinned, haven't you? And have the most public of those-- Swaggart, the Bakkers etc.-- not been publicly shamed and their carefully constructed empires, which served to glorify themselves rather than the Lord, brought to ruin?)
++ Human justice is all about this mortal life. Perfect justice is all about eternity, to which mortal life is a brief, transient prologue. The entire focus of the universe, its whole raison d'etre, is the Glory of God. Those who deny God suffermost-- if not here, then hereafter.
++ The moment of belief or repentance is not momentary; the change takes a moment, but lasts a lifetime (however brief the remaining life may be).
++ There is no such thing as a sincere moment of disbelief that condemns. We are born condemned**, and we either believe at some point during life, or not.
2. Baptism. While there are some, indeed whole denominations, that hold to "baptismal regeneration" (the salvific power of the act of being baptized), I'm not one.
++ The baptism of John was a Jewish rite, symbolizing repentance form sin. In one of the accounts, John, knowing Who he was dealing with, said (paraphrasing), "Lord, You don't need to be baptized by me; rather, it is I who need it from You." Jesus insisted, prefiguring the day when He would take all the sin of the world upon himself.
++ We are commanded to be baptized as a testimony of our salvation. It is a simple, easy act of obedience, and symbolizes out desire to obey the Lord in all things from then on.
++ A person who is unbaptizable for any reason is no less saved as a result.
Hope that helps. I'm always looking into CC, so if you want to discuss further...here I am, more or less.
* Various end-time theologies exist, but I think all of them add up to the fact that the last generation alive on earth will not necessarily die before entering eternity.
**Most of us believe that God in His mercy does not hold infants or mental defectives who cannot comprehend sin accountable for it.
-
When did Christians claim the universe is perfect?
On the contrary the stated mission of Christianity's namesake was to provide redemption.
Redemption presumes a very imperfect universe as there is no need to redeem that which is already perfect.
-
When did Christians claim the universe is perfect?
On the contrary the stated mission of Christianity's namesake was to provide redemption.
Redemption presumes a very imperfect universe as there is no need to redeem that which is already perfect.
To be more precise about it, Christians - unless you're dealing with some really esoteric brand - *must* believe that God *must* ultimately bring about a state of affairs where perfect justice is realized - else, He wouldnt be perfectly just. That is all I mean by 'just universe'... that it ultimately has a just purpose behind it.
Reading back, I now see that it wasnt really clear at all. Hopefully, the above makes more sense out of what I was trying to say.
-
To be more precise about it, Christians - unless you're dealing with some really esoteric brand - *must* believe that God *must* ultimately bring about a state of affairs where perfect justice is realized - else, He wouldnt be perfectly just. That is all I mean by 'just universe'... that it ultimately has a just purpose behind it.
Reading back, I now see that it wasnt really clear at all. Hopefully, the above makes more sense out of what I was trying to say.
It still shows you have no concept of the Bible or Scripture.
Read Ephesians 2:8,9 and see if you can grasp where your contrived and ignorant view of Salvation is off the tracks.
-
To be more precise about it, Christians - unless you're dealing with some really esoteric brand - *must* believe that God *must* ultimately bring about a state of affairs where perfect justice is realized - else, He wouldnt be perfectly just. That is all I mean by 'just universe'... that it ultimately has a just purpose behind it.
Reading back, I now see that it wasnt really clear at all. Hopefully, the above makes more sense out of what I was trying to say.
In a perfect world everyone would make the perfect decisions and see their lives through in perfection.
But the bible does say people are perfect or live perfectly, it says people get to decide what they want.
-
In a perfect world everyone would make the perfect decisions and see their lives through in perfection.
But the bible does say people are perfect or live perfectly, it says people get to decide what they want.
Right, I think my use of the term "universe" is confusing things. Christians don't actually think this world is perfectly just, and neither does anyone else that I know of. That's not what I'm trying to say. But they do believe its ultimate purpose is perfectly just and that perfect justice (as well as perfect mercy, among other things) will be served to everyone - if not in this life, the next. They don't believe that perfect justice will always or even ever be apparent in this lifetime.
And the issue is that many principles and facts about Christianity, as well as facts about the natural world, say something about its/God's vision of justice and they seem puzzling. They often make it seem like God isn't actually perfectly just. The OP and myself raised a couple of examples, but there are many more.
-
Distilled to it's essence the OP is asking why is evil permitted and why is it forgiven?
I must ask: at which point should evil/sin be met with the finality of Divine justice? Should the killer be dealt after the knife has plunged into the victim? In mid-stroke? When he draws the knife from his belt? When he settles his mind on the deed? When he first imagines it?
When?
-
Distilled to it's essence the OP is asking why is evil permitted and why is it forgiven?
I must ask: at which point should evil/sin be met with the finality of Divine justice? Should the killer be dealt after the knife has plunged into the victim? In mid-stroke? When he draws the knife from his belt? When he settles his mind on the deed? When he first imagines it?
When?
Evil/sin was met with the finality of Divine Justice when the sentence of Death was passed upon all mankind, thousand of years ago.
The sentence of Eternal Death has, by God's Grace and Mercy, been suspended until the end of the mortal era, and furthermore, the penalty has been paid by that same God's own sacrifice.
It is for us as individuals to accept or reject that payment on our own behalfs, or not.
I am thankful that God will not deal with me according to His Justice, but His Mercy. In His perfect Justice, I deserve no less than to be struck dead right now, and my soul consigned to Hell on the spot.
-
All well and good EGE but that's not the point being discussed here.
The discussion is about whether or not claims to Perfect Justice are merited considering the amount of observable injustice.
Vesta and wilbur want to know why injustice is permitted. I, in turn, want to know from them when it should be interdicted.
-
All well and good EGE but that's not the point being discussed here.
The discussion is about whether or not claims to Perfect Justice are merited considering the amount of observable injustice.
Vesta and wilbur want to know why injustice is permitted. I, in turn, want to know from them when it should be interdicted.
The observable is but a tiny fraction of time and space, and exactly that degree of universal justice should be inferred from it as you can infer a forest from a leaf.
Injustice seems to be permitted only because we are too impatient to see the end. It is like watching a bank robbery in progress and denouncing the society which has not already arrested, tried, and imprisoned the perpetrators.
It is permitted to take place in the first place for a multitude of reasons, all tending toward the Glory of God, and all having to do with each of us as individuals, and how we respond to God, which in turn will impact our eternal destiny.
-
All well and good EGE but that's not the point being discussed here.
The discussion is about whether or not claims to Perfect Justice are merited considering the amount of observable injustice.
Vesta and wilbur want to know why injustice is permitted. I, in turn, want to know from them when it should be interdicted.
Not so sure I'm really after that... I know most of the standard theodicies. The one ExGeeEye offers is a version of a skeptical theism (http://www.iep.utm.edu/skept-th/) class theodicy.
I guess I was just offering this opinion, and the question at the end was more rhetorical, than it was to demand an actual reply:
]
So with that in mind, it always rings a little hollow when a Christian makes the claim that God ensures a just universe. God's justice seems totally bewildering and incomprehensible. If its totally bewildering and incomprehensible, why should I feel comforted by it?
And I'll add another - if this perfect justice is totally bewildering and incomprehensible, how do we even know that it is justice at all?
-
And I'll add another - if this perfect justice is totally bewildering and incomprehensible, how do we even know that it is justice at all?
You could no more know Justice than you could know Injustice.
BOTH would require omniscience.
However, IF there was a God and he did create us then obviously we have a "sense" justice.
Would something as clever as a Creator of all Time and Space give us a sense of justice and then set about violating it?
He wouldn't be a creator, he would be a devil. But then where and why the justice we sense?
Justice would be a thing separate from our creator. It would be the thing he holds over our heads like a dastard holding a bottle tauntingly over the head of a hungry infant.
But the nourishment would still be real.
Would even such a devil be subject to that Justice? If not was there ever really such a thing as Justice? There must be because if we say, "the very notion of justice is merely a lie" the mind screams, "That's not fair!"
If there really is Justice it wouldn't matter who created the Christian it only matters who the Christian prays to: his tormenting creator or Justice.
-
The one ExGeeEye offers is a version of a skeptical theism class theodicy.
I'm trying to figure out where the ideal of skepticism has anything to do with anything I've posted.
Seems to me someone arguing against my beliefs would point out excessive credulity rather than skepticism-- seeing that I am relying on the unseen and unknown to cope with the seen and known.
-
I'm trying to figure out where the ideal of skepticism has anything to do with anything I've posted.
Seems to me someone arguing against my beliefs would point out excessive credulity rather than skepticism-- seeing that I am relying on the unseen and unknown to cope with the seen and known.
Skepticism, in this case, does not mean you are a doubter. From the link provided by wilbur:
Skeptical theism is the view that God exists but that we should be skeptical of our ability to discern God’s reasons for acting or refraining from acting in any particular instance. In particular, says the skeptical theist, we should not grant that our inability to think of a good reason for doing or allowing something is indicative of whether or not God might have a good reason for doing or allowing something. If there is a God, he knows much more than we do about the relevant facts, and thus it would not be surprising at all if he has reasons for doing or allowing something that we cannot fathom.
Now, your previous posts, IMO, are too short to draw a defined diagnosis to this extent. I will only comment on what you actually write.
I must say on the whole the conversation is going well. Unfortunately labels such as skeptical theism lend themselves to miscommunication unless every reader shares the same base of reference. Fancy terms save typing at the risk of misunderstanding.
-
That makes more sense-- in any instance where my conclusions run up against doctrinal truth -- I immediately distrust my conclusions and abandon them like so much refuse.
OK, maybe not immediately. But as soon as I recognize that holding to them is a form of rebellion against God.
An instance of this might be, "I believe that any murderer should go to hell." That's not my call to make. My preference would be that such a one should suffer death of the body at the hands of the state, but I cannot forbid God from drawing him to Himself in his final days. Only God and the individual would know whether his belief was genuine, or just a hell-avoidance ritual.
I believe that Karla Tucker (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karla_Faye_Tucker) is in Heaven today, based on her own and others' accounts. Of course, I am not competent to declare it so, any more than I am to declare that Adolf Eichmann is definitely in Hell. I can entertain an opinion, based on his and others' testimony.
-
I believe that Karla Tucker (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karla_Faye_Tucker) is in Heaven today, based on her own and others' accounts. Of course, I am not competent to declare it so, any more than I am to declare that Adolf Eichmann is definitely in Hell. I can entertain an opinion, based on his and others' testimony.
And this is what some consider to be "unjust"
Suppose, according to Christian doctrine, Ms. Tucker's victims had not "come to know Christ". Then their souls would be lost for eternity. Yet, Christian doctrine says Ms. Tucker herself has every likelihood of having been forgiven and redeemed.
Of course that only opens the dialogue to the spiritual responsibilities of the victims.
In the Talmud there is a story of a student asking his rabbi when should a man properly repent of his sins. The rabbi replied, "The day before he dies." The student replied it was impossible to know when that day would come and the rabbi smiled back at him.
-
And this is what some consider to be "unjust"
Suppose, according to Christian doctrine, Ms. Tucker's victims had not "come to know Christ". Then their souls would be lost for eternity. Yet, Christian doctrine says Ms. Tucker herself has every likelihood of having been forgiven and redeemed.
Of course that only opens the dialogue to the spiritual responsibilities of the victims.
In the Talmud there is a story of a student asking his rabbi when should a man properly repent of his sins. The rabbi replied, "The day before he dies." The student replied it was impossible to know when that day would come and the rabbi smiled back at him.
Mr. Bunny, you have asked a question that I have never thought about before.
If by murder someone who has no repentance for the crime prevents others to get into, down the line, of Gods graces, is this not a murder of the body and soul??
The murder repents later after they are caught and is saved, but those they killed have no chance to do the same.
Somethings wrong here, the killer may truly repent for what they have done, but why do they repent, is it to
be in their own interests to do so
to give themselves a relief from their conscious
to try to control God by following his rules
Are these people still without being aware of it still trying to scam, even God??
I need help here, all this makes no sense to me.
-
Mr. Bunny, you have asked a question that I have never thought about before.
If by murder someone who has no repentance for the crime prevents others to get into, down the line, of Gods graces, is this not a murder of the body and soul??
The murder repents later after they are caught and is saved, but those they killed have no chance to do the same.
Somethings wrong here, the killer may truly repent for what they have done, but why do they repent, is it to
be in their own interests to do so
to give themselves a relief from their conscious
to try to control God by following his rules
Are these people still without being aware of it still trying to scam, even God??
I need help here, all this makes no sense to me.
Vesta,you want things answered in a way that makes sense to your human mind and what you are rationalizing as fair and just.
That isn`t meant to be sarcastic either but it simply isn`t how it works.
Those people killed in this theoretical circumstance had ample time to repent on their own and did not.
It would make no difference if their deaths were the result of a tragic accident or natural causes.
If one is to accept Gods ways then it also means to know His ways may not be ours and the human mind can`t grasp it all.
It is fine to question,search Scripture and seek God for answers but one has to be open to the fact they may not come or in a manner we like.
-
...The murder repents later after they are caught and is saved, but those they killed have no chance to do the same...
...[T]he killer may truly repent for what they have done, but why do they repent, is it...in their own interests to do so...to give themselves a relief from their conscious...to try to control God by following his rules...trying to scam, even God??
Since God is omniscient and lives outside of time (which is after all His own creation), it is impossible to short-circuit His will by our actions.
This is the part that really gets the "why does evil happen" folks...
To God, everything that to us is going to happen, has effectively already happened.
If He intends that so-and-so is going to go to church in 2016 and be saved, that person cannot be murdered in 2010. It is impossible!
If on the other hand, God allows that a person exercising free will chooses to murder another, then it necessary follows that in God's plan, that victim's time was up, and any unrealized opportunity for repentance on the victim's part is his own responsibility.
Now if the murderer truly repents (your words) then it is definitely not to "control" or "scam" God. That is the very definition of a false repentance. As for your other terms, it is very much in the sinner's interest to repent. Not so much that they don't feel guilt; it is the stab of a very guilty conscience, the knowledge that one has sinned and cannot un-sin, that leads to repentance.
In my example of Karla Tucker above, she knew her guilt and went to execution willingly. I would suggest that true repentance carries with it a crushing realization of the infinite depth of one's guilt.
-
Mr. Bunny, you have asked a question that I have never thought about before.
If by murder someone who has no repentance for the crime prevents others to get into, down the line, of Gods graces, is this not a murder of the body and soul??
The murder repents later after they are caught and is saved, but those they killed have no chance to do the same.
Somethings wrong here, the killer may truly repent for what they have done, but why do they repent, is it to
be in their own interests to do so
to give themselves a relief from their conscious
to try to control God by following his rules
Are these people still without being aware of it still trying to scam, even God??
I need help here, all this makes no sense to me.
I'm gonna go out on a limb here and suppose that any being that could create a human soul could probably have wherewithall to determine if a motive was sincere and self-serving.
I doubt Heaven is populated by crooks, liars and thugs that smiled at God and said, "No, really!" and then giggle behind His back.
-
You could no more know Justice than you could know Injustice.
BOTH would require omniscience.
However, IF there was a God and he did create us then obviously we have a "sense" justice.
Would something as clever as a Creator of all Time and Space give us a sense of justice and then set about violating it?
Well, the big problem with any skeptical theist response is that once invoked, one's ability to make any sort of claim about God's reasons for action are undermined. On skeptical theism, God might have a good reason to violate our sense of justice. We simply cannot say, since our own faculties are so limited and our knowledge is so small. Heck, it may even be his moral obligation, in some instance, to violate our sense of justice, if some better or greater state of affairs is realized because of it. So it would appear that we can't actually say that God wouldn't set about violating our sense of justice, on skeptical theism.
The link touches a little on this in its "objections" section.
The same thing can occur with any other issue, like the problem of evil, or suffering, etc.
-
...since our own faculties are so limited and our knowledge is so small...
Why even rely on that?
Take into consideration that humans are lying, petty, violent, ego-obsessed herd animals and humanity's inability completely and accurately discern or apply Justice is a natural consequence.
-
I'm gonna go out on a limb here and suppose that any being that could create a human soul could probably have wherewithall to determine if a motive was sincere and self-serving.
I doubt Heaven is populated by crooks, liars and thugs that smiled at God and said, "No, really!" and then giggle behind His back.
It is said that at one time Gods crew did in fact revolt and create a mutiny in the heavens. There was a mighty war in the heavens at some time and the mutineers were cast out to find a safe place--Hell-- and allowed to carry on their evil deeds on mankind.
What was up for grabs between God and Satan are the souls of humans on this Planet and perhaps thousands of other planets with some kind of life form.
It is also written that God and Satan have some kind of relationship together as in the story of Job where he was used by both God and Satan to force this poor man to choose between them.
God allowed Satan to annihilate his family and cause great harm to befall his servant through Satan.
All this on a bet from Satan, nothing is said about the deaths of his family who were also his servants, they were pawns to be discarded.
Interesting story in the Bible, just one of many I wonder about.
-
Job is one of my favorite books. I wonder whether you have actually read it, or just been told about what's in it. I suggest finding a readable modern English text (NIV or ESV, for example-- both are available on line) and just reading it.
(This is going to be very long, and will touch just a few points of this wonderful book. Sorry.)
Historically speaking, it took place sometime between the Flood and the departure of Abram (later: Abraham) from Ur. This is interesting to me as an amateur "student of history", but not really relevant.
What is relevant is that it explores "why bad things happen to good people" (thousands of years before whatsisname wrote his book). It starts out by telling us why, which would be called today a "spoiler". It climaxes with the very Words of God spoken to Job (what a privilege, even under those circumstances!).
One of the problems people have with Job is one of focus. We humans tend to focus on this life; 70 years, 100 if we're lucky, 30 if not, and anything less than that a terrible tragedy, even if by natural causes. We want to see justice done, and injustice undone, within our lifetimes (or at least within the lifetimes of those directly involved. We cheer when Dillinger is shot down on the street, or when Saddam Hussein hangs. We grump at the fact that Josef Mengele seems to have lived to a happy old age and drowned while on holiday instead of being shot or hanged or both and stuffed into one of his own ovens.
Our lens is out of focus. It should be focused on eternity.
Dillinger is likely in hell. Saddam Hussein is likely in hell. Mengele is likely in hell. If this is true, then they are going to remain there for eternity. There is no getting out. A thousand years from now their punishment will be just beginning. Five billion years, and they will be no nearer the end of it than they are now-- because there is no end.
And here's the kicker: there is not one of us who has not sinned. You cannot name one person who hasn't (unless you know a just-born infant). St. Paul, who wrote much of the new testament, mostly under the direct inspiration of God, called himself the chief of sinners, and wrote that "everyone has sinned, and falls short of the Glory of God". We are as guilty as Dillinger, Saddam, and Mengele (guilty of different things, I'm sure!)
I deserve to be in Hell right now, and forever. Nothing personal, but I believe you do, too. And so did Paul (deserve Hell, I mean).
OK, back to Job. His grown children were killed by Satan (by means of a structural failure of the house they were in), with God's permission. "On a bet with Satan", I think you said. Some bet. God is omniscient. He knows how the dice will fall before they are made, let alone thrown. He knew what would happen before Satan even brought it up. And He knew you and I would be talking about it, thousands of years later!
Job is described as a Godly man, who acted as priest for his family. I think it likely he raised Godly children who, at death, were taken to God for eternity. Do you suppose that any of them, five seconds after they died, wished they hadn't? I think not. They arrived in Heaven's Glory, where they remain today. They've been there at least three thousand years, and their reward is just beginning. A thousand years from now their reward will still be just beginning. Five billion years, and they will be no nearer the end of it than they are now-- because there is no end. praise God!
The middle part of Job describes his friends sitting around trying to figure out why these things happened to Job. Mostly they seem to think he must have committed some great sin, even unwittingly, and until he repents, there's nothing for it.
And then we get to chapter 38. God Himself speaks!
"Brace yourself! I will ask you some questions, and you shall answer!" The questions basically boil down to "I created this. Can you?" It goes on through chapter 39, and gets to-- probably my favorite part of the Old Testament.
God says (paraphrasing) "Do you argue with Me? Will you tell Me I am wrong, and tell Me how I should do?"
Job answers (finally!) "I am unworthy—how can I reply to you? I put my hand over my mouth."
God again: "Brace yourself! I will ask you some questions, and you shall answer!" I love that! He goes on:
"Would you discredit my justice? Would you condemn me to justify yourself? "
...
We dare not do so, if we know Who we're dealing with. Job gets it:
"I know that you can do all things; no purpose of yours can be thwarted...I spoke of things I did not understand, things too wonderful for me to know. My ears had heard of you but now my eyes have seen you. Therefore I despise myself and repent in dust and ashes.â€
And when all was said and done, God rewarded Job's faithfulness, both in life and in eternity.
Long as this is, it still dissatisfies me as to completeness. May the Lord add His guidance to my words for your benefit. Amen.
If you desire anything further, you know where to find me. Be well.
-
Because the the 14th, 29th, etc posts never get read.
-
Soldiers haunted by scenes of war and victims scarred by violence may wish they could wipe the memories from their minds. Researchers at the Johns Hopkins University say that may someday be possible.
A commercial drug remains far off — and its use would be subject to many ethical and practical questions. But scientists have laid a foundation with their discovery that proteins can be removed from the brain's fear center to erase memories forever.
http://www.baltimoresun.com/health/bs-hs-erasing-memories-20101122,0,342650.story
What if Job, or any other victim, could have their memories erased? Would that in anyway diminish the evil they had previously endured?
I don't think so.
What if, instead of only erasing the memory of a rape victim they could also target the mind of the rapist and make him forget the motivators that lead him to perpetrate such acts of violence? Would that suddenly make him a good person?
Again, I don't think so. It make make him different. It make make him harmless. It might even make him pleasant.
But it would also mean he had no more moral quality than a light switch.
Job is not memorialized for enduring in spite of his suffering but because of it. Remove the suffering and the story collapses.
Now, I reject dualism. I do not believe evil (assuming it exists) is a necessary half of the same moral coin. You need not see a child murdered to know the joy of a child born. The pain of seeing a murder is not separate from the love; it could never exist if the love did not precede it. Evil cannot exist on its own it requires a basic good that it must deny or corrupt.
But in the story of Job we see much evil befalling Job. It latches on to his goodness and preys upon it and despoils it. It twists goodness into a mockery of all that creation was meant to be ("Curse God and die!).
And yet...
Just when evil seems triumphant. As if it seems to have buried goodness, a newer, fresher goodness sprang from that soil like a seed from an orchard scorched by some faceless marauder blooms after the marauder has moved on and the soil is now rich with nutrients sees the new trees bursting with fruit.
Evil cannot live without without goodness and every time it tries to destroy goodness some yet higher good emerges above it.
NOTE: Most scholars agree the story of Job is only fiction. No one should take offense at this. Far from diminishing the power of the Bible I say it speaks volumes of their philosophical depth. Like those cave paintings in France I am so enamored with, I believe it demonstrates I power of the ancients modern man ignores from his own arrogance and ignorance. It is far more beautiful and intricate a piece of art than any of the crap literature dribbling off the printing presses today.
-
Why even rely on that?
Take into consideration that humans are lying, petty, violent, ego-obsessed herd animals and humanity's inability completely and accurately discern or apply Justice is a natural consequence.
Well, what else is there to rely on, other than our own faculties? Divine inspiration? It must be similarly analyzed and interpreted through the same cognitive faculties with which we think about justice, suffering, etc.
-
Well, what else is there to rely on, other than our own faculties? Divine inspiration? It must be similarly analyzed and interpreted through the same cognitive faculties with which we think about justice, suffering, etc.
Why?
-
Well, what else is there to rely on, other than our own faculties? Divine inspiration? It must be similarly analyzed and interpreted through the same cognitive faculties with which we think about justice, suffering, etc.
If the Bible is a human invention then interpretation is meaningless as the authoring, or rather, because of it.
If the Bible is true it teaches men to pray, "Thy will be done." In other words it moves man away from his own mind (if the man be willing).
-
If the Bible is a human invention then interpretation is meaningless as the authoring, or rather, because of it.
Yes, I agree.
If the Bible is true it teaches men to pray, "Thy will be done." In other words it moves man away from his own mind (if the man be willing
Perhaps it is true, that God Himself acts as the instrument which facilities a person's genuine understanding of His revelation. However, there still is a problem here, because there is simply so much much false revelation and genuine misunderstanding of revelation in the world. In reality, sincere people who genuinely desire to know and understand God's revelation often end up in wildly contradictory and incompatible places.
Unless one is prepared to assert that others must submit to his own personal experience and understanding of revelation, because it simply must be superior to all other's in its accuracy and truth (because he says so), then we *must* reconcile or reject differing accounts of revelation using our very own biased and flawed cognitive faculties. Reason, logic, intuition, etc.
-
http://www.baltimoresun.com/health/bs-hs-erasing-memories-20101122,0,342650.story
What if Job, or any other victim, could have their memories erased? Would that in anyway diminish the evil they had previously endured?
I don't think so.
What if, instead of only erasing the memory of a rape victim they could also target the mind of the rapist and make him forget the motivators that lead him to perpetrate such acts of violence? Would that suddenly make him a good person?
Again, I don't think so. It make make him different. It make make him harmless. It might even make him pleasant.
But it would also mean he had no more moral quality than a light switch.
Meant to reply to this sooner...
What do you think makes one more 'moral' than a lightswitch?
We use all kinds of tools that don't seem all that different, in principle, to some pharmacological behavior modification. Social pressures are one such tool. We condemn or praise people based on their behaviors. Laws are another. We use punishment to deter harmful actions, using jail time, fines, spanking, etc.
Do you consider people who moderate their behaviors in response to such pressures as amoral (ie, as moral as a lightswitch)?
Most people do good for the some of the same sorts of reasons. We also use social pressures to inspire good acts by delivering praise and/or rewards. More often than not, ask a person how it feels to do good things for others, and they will tell you that it feels great. They get visceral pleasure from acts of kindness.
So again, do you consider people reacting to such pressures and desires as moral agents or as lightswitches?
-
ExGeeEye wrote some great things. I can add very little. Let me add the New Testament.
Heh. "Just universe."
Where is that promised? Look at what we did to the Son of God. If God the Father allows his only Son--sinless, guiltless--to be put to the test, then put to a horrible, painful, excrutiating death, what right do we have of expecting justice or fairness in this lifetime?
Divine Justice.
None of us can truly know the will of God. Who are we to say goes to Heaven or Hell? Not in our job description. "Judge not" and all that. Or "Vengeance is Mine." We give to God these anthropomorphic attributes. We look at a span of a hundred, a thousand, or a hundred thousand years as a long time. ExGeeEye said our lens is out of focus. I don't think we're capaple of focusing that far out.
-
ExGeeEye wrote some great things. I can add very little. Let me add the New Testament.
Heh. "Just universe."
Where is that promised? Look at what we did to the Son of God. If God the Father allows his only Son--sinless, guiltless--to be put to the test, then put to a horrible, painful, excrutiating death, what right do we have of expecting justice or fairness in this lifetime?
I clarified later that "just universe" did not mean we will receive justice in this lifetime. When the universe has served its purpose, and we've all been judged, perfect justice will have been served, allegedly.
-
Meant to reply to this sooner...
What do you think makes one more 'moral' than a lightswitch?
We use all kinds of tools that don't seem all that different, in principle, to some pharmacological behavior modification. Social pressures are one such tool. We condemn or praise people based on their behaviors. Laws are another. We use punishment to deter harmful actions, using jail time, fines, spanking, etc.
Do you consider people who moderate their behaviors in response to such pressures as amoral (ie, as moral as a lightswitch)?
Most people do good for the some of the same sorts of reasons. We also use social pressures to inspire good acts by delivering praise and/or rewards. More often than not, ask a person how it feels to do good things for others, and they will tell you that it feels great. They get visceral pleasure from acts of kindness.
So again, do you consider people reacting to such pressures and desires as moral agents or as lightswitches?
Some guy once said, "You have been told 'thou shall not commit adultery' but I say to you, whoever looks upon a woman and lusts after her in his heart commits adultery with her already in his heart. And whoever hates his brother in his heart is already guilty of murder."
You gotta admit, the dude had a point.
If the only thing holding your murderous rage in check is fear of incarceration then you aren't a moral person, you're just a *****. I suppose it can be argued that being a ***** is definitely different from being a light switch.
The flip side of that is love. Love, to have any true meaning, would require an act of will. "If you only love those that love you then you already have your reward."
It's easy to feel fondly for those who have already done you good but try loving the guy that keeps going into the office fridge and eating your peanut butter and tuna sandwiches.
Zotting out someone's memory won't cure an evil perpetrated upon them or by them, it just zotted out the memory. It will do nothing to replace the missing sandwhiches.
-
Some guy once said, "You have been told 'thou shall not commit adultery' but I say to you, whoever looks upon a woman and lusts after her in his heart commits adultery with her already in his heart. And whoever hates his brother in his heart is already guilty of murder."
You gotta admit, the dude had a point.
If the only thing holding your murderous rage in check is fear of incarceration then you aren't a moral person, you're just a *****. I suppose it can be argued that being a ***** is definitely different from being a light switch.
The flip side of that is love. Love, to have any true meaning, would require an act of will. "If you only love those that love you then you already have your reward."
It's easy to feel fondly for those who have already done you good but try loving the guy that keeps going into the office fridge and eating your peanut butter and tuna sandwiches.
Zotting out someone's memory won't cure an evil perpetrated upon them or by them, it just zotted out the memory. It will do nothing to replace the missing sandwhiches.
I think I read your example about the rapist with a little more than wiping out memories in mind. I agree that wiping out memories would be inadequate to change a rapists nature, or his desire to rape. But when you said "motivators", I considered that to roughly mean "desires". So I took it that you were suggesting the possibility of removing a rapists 'desire' to rape using a pharmacological solution. That was the context in which my questions were framed.
All the tools I mentioned are basically meant to hack our desires, to change them, to reorient them towards something better. They give us something good to desire more (hopefully) than our evil desires. The hypothetical pharmacological solution you mentioned, as I understood it, seemed to do something similar - I was just wondering if and what you saw as the major distinction between the two.
As for me, maybe I could cure most of my evil desires with some dedicated meditation and some changes of habits - but what if there were a pill or a procedure that did the same thing? Would I remain a moral agent with the former, but not the latter?
And I do agree that its much better to have desires oriented to the good, rather than to have desires oriented to the evil, that one simply resists (at least for one's own personal satisfaction).
-
Just a thought here... if god is Omnipotent and perfect, then whatever god did would be perfect. There can be no exceptions, either god is perfect or god is not.
With that in mind lets look at the conundrum.
If a man who was a devout xtain the majority of his life, then gave is soul to satan, would he go to hell? The answer almost seems too easy. Certainly a servant of hell would find himself in hell upon entering a afterlife. Really?
When a child, a good honest child gets in with the wrong group of children do we shun the child or try to help the child? If a child becomes wrought with sin do we turn our backs on him? The moral thing to do would be to help the child.
It would seem that god doesnt agree with that moral stance at all.
It is written that god died for everyone's sins. Cool! It doesnt take much to figure out the loophole. I will lead a life of sin then at some point late in my life Ill just pray to jesus for forgiveness. Boom Im off to heaven!
And BTW jesus'es dying for our sins act also forgives the sins of a murderers and pedophiles. So yes god would welcome charles manson and cast a non believing human into fire for the simple act of not believing that jesus died on a cross for our sins. Which at face value shows that god and jesus are not very moral god(s). Actually it makes em rather petty. The bible says in short: Believe jesus is god or burn in hell for eternity, oops wait not really eternity, just untill the second coming when god destroys satan and hell and all of his followers. Look there it is a imperfection! I think the many mistakes in the bible is proof enough that god did not write it.
But lets ignore that tiny problem. Lets move on to the bigger problem. Religion!
Yes i said religion. Obviously I am what many would consider a Atheist. Hold on put your nooses down! I dont usually call myself a Atheist. Its true that I dont believe in god(s), jesus, the whole shebang whether xtain, muslim or hindu or any of that new age paranormal crap or afterlifes and all those other nutty endeavors men like to undertake. But my non-belief in something should not label me as evil. After all it is the bible that uses the word 'evil'. I dont believe that evil exists. So no I am not a satanic devil worshiper. I do not believe in demons or witches either. Sorry I got side tracked. Ill continue. It is written in the bible that religions are bad. Yet there are many xtian religions, which I find bazaar. I guess gods word isnt perfect? I mean shouldnt all xtians not be in religions then?
-
A few short replies:
It is written that god died for everyone's sins. Cool! It doesnt take much to figure out the loophole. I will lead a life of sin then at some point late in my life Ill just pray to jesus for forgiveness. Boom Im off to heaven!
God replies to the man planning to live life his own way for years to come: "You fool! This very night your life will be demanded from you." (Luke 12:20) We do not know when the end will come, and it is foolishness to plan for eternity based on the expectation of living to 70 or 80 when every day's news tells of apparently healthy people dropping dead in their tracks, never mind road accidents, wars etc.
And BTW jesus'es dying for our sins act also forgives the sins of a murderers and pedophiles. So yes god would welcome charles manson and cast a non believing human into fire for the simple act of not believing that jesus died on a cross for our sins.
Sin is sin, whether murder, or hate which leads to murder; sexual sins like adultery or pedophilia, or the lust which can lead to it; Perfect Justice demands that all who sin deserve to go to Hell, and there is only One Person who never sinned; that being Jesus, who has paid the price for sin, the only cost to us being that we must surrender our pride and accept His grace.
He has given us free will, as well. We have the option to reject His grace. We can even call Him nasty names and neglect to capitalize His Name, something we wouldn't do to a fellow human. By doing so, we accept full responsibility for our sins. Those who do so will receive Perfect Justice.
Which at face value shows that god and jesus are not very moral god(s). Actually it makes em rather petty. The bible says in short: Believe jesus is god or burn in hell for eternity, oops wait not really eternity, just untill the second coming when god destroys satan and hell and all of his followers.
That last bit is incorrect. Satan, Death, and Hell will be cast into "the lake of fire" (I believe this to be a literal place) for eternity, not annihilated.
But lets ignore that tiny problem. Lets move on to the bigger problem. Religion!
God has a problem with "religion" as well. He has this to say about people who live all week like the Devil himself, and show up once a week to "worship" and expect God will be OK with that:
"Will you steal and murder, commit adultery and perjury, burn incense to Baal and follow other gods you have not known, and then come and stand before me in this house, which bears my Name, and say, “We are safeâ€â€”safe to do all these detestable things? Has this house, which bears my Name, become a den of robbers to you? But I have been watching! declares the LORD." (Jeremiah 7:9-11)
He also has something to say about real religion, and it has nothing to do with denominations, or liturgy, clergy, ecclesiastical offices, offering plates, none of it. Here are His words, though the pen of Jesus' half-brother James:
"Do not merely listen to the word, and so deceive yourselves. Do what it says. Anyone who listens to the word but does not do what it says is like someone who looks at his face in a mirror and, after looking at himself, goes away and immediately forgets what he looks like. But whoever looks intently into the perfect law that gives freedom, and continues in it—not forgetting what they have heard, but doing it—they will be blessed in what they do.
"Those who consider themselves religious and yet do not keep a tight rein on their tongues deceive themselves, and their religion is worthless. Religion that God our Father accepts as pure and faultless is this: to look after orphans and widows in their distress and to keep oneself from being polluted by the world." (James 1:22-27) (Emphases added)
Salvation by Grace, and a solid effort to live morally afterward, and to care for those in real need. That's it. I live in the hope that that is my religion as well. All else is a human invention, which has its uses, but must not be mistaken for true religion as defined; as in Jeremiah, you can attend all the rituals you like and be as lost as possible.
I dont believe that evil exists.
Yet you referenced Manson, other murderers, and pedophiles. Are these not evil to you?
May the Lord lend His power to these few word of mine.
-
Just a thought here... if god is Omnipotent and perfect, then whatever god did would be perfect. There can be no exceptions, either god is perfect or god is not.
With that in mind lets look at the conundrum.
If a man who was a devout xtain the majority of his life, then gave is soul to satan, would he go to hell? The answer almost seems too easy. Certainly a servant of hell would find himself in hell upon entering a afterlife. Really?
When a child, a good honest child gets in with the wrong group of children do we shun the child or try to help the child? If a child becomes wrought with sin do we turn our backs on him? The moral thing to do would be to help the child.
It would seem that god doesnt agree with that moral stance at all.
It is written that god died for everyone's sins. Cool! It doesnt take much to figure out the loophole. I will lead a life of sin then at some point late in my life Ill just pray to jesus for forgiveness. Boom Im off to heaven!
And BTW jesus'es dying for our sins act also forgives the sins of a murderers and pedophiles. So yes god would welcome charles manson and cast a non believing human into fire for the simple act of not believing that jesus died on a cross for our sins. Which at face value shows that god and jesus are not very moral god(s). Actually it makes em rather petty. The bible says in short: Believe jesus is god or burn in hell for eternity, oops wait not really eternity, just untill the second coming when god destroys satan and hell and all of his followers. Look there it is a imperfection! I think the many mistakes in the bible is proof enough that god did not write it.
But lets ignore that tiny problem. Lets move on to the bigger problem. Religion!
Yes i said religion. Obviously I am what many would consider a Atheist. Hold on put your nooses down! I dont usually call myself a Atheist. Its true that I dont believe in god(s), jesus, the whole shebang whether xtain, muslim or hindu or any of that new age paranormal crap or afterlifes and all those other nutty endeavors men like to undertake. But my non-belief in something should not label me as evil. After all it is the bible that uses the word 'evil'. I dont believe that evil exists. So no I am not a satanic devil worshiper. I do not believe in demons or witches either. Sorry I got side tracked. Ill continue. It is written in the bible that religions are bad. Yet there are many xtian religions, which I find bazaar. I guess gods word isnt perfect? I mean shouldnt all xtians not be in religions then?
Just a thought. Something I've always wondered. Why do you care? Athiests don't believe in God. I get it. Awesome. Why is it so important to you to work so hard to disprove God's existence? Are you trying to prove your point to me or yourself?
-
Just a thought here... if god is Omnipotent and perfect, then whatever god did would be perfect. There can be no exceptions, either god is perfect or god is not.
With that in mind lets look at the conundrum.
If a man who was a devout xtain the majority of his life, then gave is soul to satan, would he go to hell? The answer almost seems too easy. Certainly a servant of hell would find himself in hell upon entering a afterlife. Really?
When a child, a good honest child gets in with the wrong group of children do we shun the child or try to help the child? If a child becomes wrought with sin do we turn our backs on him? The moral thing to do would be to help the child.
It would seem that god doesnt agree with that moral stance at all.
It is written that god died for everyone's sins. Cool! It doesnt take much to figure out the loophole. I will lead a life of sin then at some point late in my life Ill just pray to jesus for forgiveness. Boom Im off to heaven!
And BTW jesus'es dying for our sins act also forgives the sins of a murderers and pedophiles. So yes god would welcome charles manson and cast a non believing human into fire for the simple act of not believing that jesus died on a cross for our sins. Which at face value shows that god and jesus are not very moral god(s). Actually it makes em rather petty. The bible says in short: Believe jesus is god or burn in hell for eternity, oops wait not really eternity, just untill the second coming when god destroys satan and hell and all of his followers. Look there it is a imperfection! I think the many mistakes in the bible is proof enough that god did not write it.
But lets ignore that tiny problem. Lets move on to the bigger problem. Religion!
Yes i said religion. Obviously I am what many would consider a Atheist. Hold on put your nooses down! I dont usually call myself a Atheist. Its true that I dont believe in god(s), jesus, the whole shebang whether xtain, muslim or hindu or any of that new age paranormal crap or afterlifes and all those other nutty endeavors men like to undertake. But my non-belief in something should not label me as evil. After all it is the bible that uses the word 'evil'. I dont believe that evil exists. So no I am not a satanic devil worshiper. I do not believe in demons or witches either. Sorry I got side tracked. Ill continue. It is written in the bible that religions are bad. Yet there are many xtian religions, which I find bazaar. I guess gods word isnt perfect? I mean shouldnt all xtians not be in religions then?
If you had read any of the thread you would have seen all your "questions" already addressed and answered.
Given that and your obvious desire to mock and ridicule those that don`t believe as you do one quickly arrives at the point of not considering you worth the time.
-
If you had read any of the thread you would have seen all your "questions" already addressed and answered.
Given that and your obvious desire to mock and ridicule those that don`t believe as you do one quickly arrives at the point of not considering you worth the time.
Carl , at this time of the year for many years I have wondered how on Xmas Eve Christians could go to church and worship the King of the Jews as the smell of crematoriums spewed its noxious gas's as the humans were burned, shot rounded up to die because they believed and were raised as Jesus was.
Jesus is God they cry out, then procede to attempt to distroy the people who believe in God.
The Holocaust was 80% Jews and the rest were communists or Gypsies, Jehovah Witnesses and the Gays.
At this season of Christmass I would like to present to you a story of Christian good will towards all man kind.
http://www.holocaustresearchproject.org/survivor/index.html
-
A few short replies:
God replies to the man planning to live life his own way for years to come: "You fool! This very night your life will be demanded from you." (Luke 12:20) We do not know when the end will come, and it is foolishness to plan for eternity based on the expectation of living to 70 or 80 when every day's news tells of apparently healthy people dropping dead in their tracks, never mind road accidents, wars etc.
Sin is sin, whether murder, or hate which leads to murder; sexual sins like adultery or pedophilia, or the lust which can lead to it; Perfect Justice demands that all who sin deserve to go to Hell, and there is only One Person who never sinned; that being Jesus, who has paid the price for sin, the only cost to us being that we must surrender our pride and accept His grace.
He has given us free will, as well. We have the option to reject His grace. We can even call Him nasty names and neglect to capitalize His Name, something we wouldn't do to a fellow human. By doing so, we accept full responsibility for our sins. Those who do so will receive Perfect Justice.
That last bit is incorrect. Satan, Death, and Hell will be cast into "the lake of fire" (I believe this to be a literal place) for eternity, not annihilated.
God has a problem with "religion" as well. He has this to say about people who live all week like the Devil himself, and show up once a week to "worship" and expect God will be OK with that:
"Will you steal and murder, commit adultery and perjury, burn incense to Baal and follow other gods you have not known, and then come and stand before me in this house, which bears my Name, and say, “We are safeâ€â€”safe to do all these detestable things? Has this house, which bears my Name, become a den of robbers to you? But I have been watching! declares the LORD." (Jeremiah 7:9-11)
He also has something to say about real religion, and it has nothing to do with denominations, or liturgy, clergy, ecclesiastical offices, offering plates, none of it. Here are His words, though the pen of Jesus' half-brother James:
"Do not merely listen to the word, and so deceive yourselves. Do what it says. Anyone who listens to the word but does not do what it says is like someone who looks at his face in a mirror and, after looking at himself, goes away and immediately forgets what he looks like. But whoever looks intently into the perfect law that gives freedom, and continues in it—not forgetting what they have heard, but doing it—they will be blessed in what they do.
"Those who consider themselves religious and yet do not keep a tight rein on their tongues deceive themselves, and their religion is worthless. Religion that God our Father accepts as pure and faultless is this: to look after orphans and widows in their distress and to keep oneself from being polluted by the world." (James 1:22-27) (Emphases added)
Salvation by Grace, and a solid effort to live morally afterward, and to care for those in real need. That's it. I live in the hope that that is my religion as well. All else is a human invention, which has its uses, but must not be mistaken for true religion as defined; as in Jeremiah, you can attend all the rituals you like and be as lost as possible.
Yet you referenced Manson, other murderers, and pedophiles. Are these not evil to you?
May the Lord lend His power to these few word of mine.
Thank you for your kind words.
Evil is a concept put forth by the bible and numerous other belief systems. Yes a human being has freewill, the choice to act like a idiot or worse. But it was his choice to be idiotic, nobody controlled his thoughts (excluding narcosis which in reality voices in their heads come from their own heads) . Which means that it was freewill that led those who do such heinous acts like rape, murder etc.
Evil does have more then just religious meaning. So I guess if one means morally wrong or bad; immoral when using the word, then its just another way of expressing that point. So in that context I can how my assertion that there is no evil is mistaken.
-
If you had read any of the thread you would have seen all your "questions" already addressed and answered.
Given that and your obvious desire to mock and ridicule those that don`t believe as you do one quickly arrives at the point of not considering you worth the time.
Am I? Let me point out since no one knows me yet. I completely support others belief systems if they do not discriminate against, or otherwise harm other humans.
And maybe I was satisfied with the previous answers?
-
Just a thought. Something I've always wondered. Why do you care? Athiests don't believe in God. I get it. Awesome. Why is it so important to you to work so hard to disprove God's existence? Are you trying to prove your point to me or yourself?
I am not working hard as you put it to disprove god(s). My personal beliefs do not need acceptance from anyone.
You ask why do I care? Interesting question. Since you broadly have put me into a social category rather then address me as a individual. Let me point out that I am not a Socialist nor a liberal. Im pointing this out for the fact that I wish to avoid all the cookie cutter arguments that would imply that I was.
-
Dear Unbelieving Friends,
I have endeavored to answer all questions, and it is enough.
I read my Bible and believe it to be the Word of God. Following its advice has never put me wrong.
Two pieces of advice found in it apply to me in this situation; they are found in Proverbs 26:4 and Matthew 7:6.
May you find the answers before you find yourselves in eternity.
-
I am not working hard as you put it to disprove god(s). My personal beliefs do not need acceptance from anyone.
You ask why do I care? Interesting question. Since you broadly have put me into a social category rather then address me as a individual. Let me point out that I am not a Socialist nor a liberal. I'm pointing this out for the fact that I wish to avoid all the cookie cutter arguments that would imply that I was.
Fairly stated.......and in keeping with your statement, the question is begged.......why are you here in this forum??
I certainly have not categorized you, however with all of the other forums and topics of discussion on this board, one must wonder why a new poster (without introducing him/her self in the :Welcomes and Introductions" forum) decided to resurrect a couple of old, dead threads in the "Religion" area, if your intention is not provocative, particularly in light of your choice of usernames??
Inquiring minds wish to know......and welcome to CC.
doc
-
Am I? Let me point out since no one knows me yet. I completely support others belief systems if they do not discriminate against, or otherwise harm other humans.
And maybe I was satisfied with the previous answers?
From your original statement...
ts true that I dont believe in god(s), jesus, the whole shebang whether xtain, muslim or hindu
Why is it through the whole thing you could not type out Christian yet had no problem with other religions?
You clearly have an enmity towards Christianity and are poorly trying to say otherwise.
-
From your original statement...
ts true that I dont believe in god(s), jesus, the whole shebang whether xtain, muslim or hindu
Why is it through the whole thing you could not type out Christian yet had no problem with other religions?
You clearly have an enmity towards Christianity and are poorly trying to say otherwise.
So it is your position just because I typed Xtian I am a anti-Christian? I am a Atheist, I equally ddo not believe all religions, but if we wish to compare which religions have caused humanity the most suffering I think Christianity is in the running. Notice that i said in the running.
And since your accusing me of being focused on Christianity. Please tell me what party in our two party political system promotes a belief in a higher being? How many major parties wish to make their religion the primary American religion?
Is there a say a muslim center, right or left? How about any other religion? Are we being told we are not American because we do not believe in someone elses god(s)?
I have been told by people in the religious right that I am not a real American based on my personal beliefs. That is neither American nor moral.
I am strongly supportive of the Constitution and our liberties. I am strongly opposed to Socialism and Communism.
I really dont see how my personal beliefs play a part in me being a US citizen. But I do see the similarities of why Our forefathers came to create this great nation. And I am quit sure todays religious right would make most if not all of the framers vomit, just before they dismantled the religious right.
So maybe i do have something against Christianity being forced on us Americans that are supposed to have that freedom of religion guaranteed by the Constitution.
-
So it is your position just because I typed Xtian I am a anti-Christian? I am a Atheist, I equally ddo not believe all religions, but if we wish to compare which religions have caused humanity the most suffering I think Christianity is in the running. Notice that i said in the running.
And since your accusing me of being focused on Christianity. Please tell me what party in our two party political system promotes a belief in a higher being? How many major parties wish to make their religion the primary American religion?
Is there a say a muslim center, right or left? How about any other religion? Are we being told we are not American because we do not believe in someone elses god(s)?
I have been told by people in the religious right that I am not a real American based on my personal beliefs. That is neither American nor moral.
I am strongly supportive of the Constitution and our liberties. I am strongly opposed to Socialism and Communism.
I really dont see how my personal beliefs play a part in me being a US citizen. But I do see the similarities of why Our forefathers came to create this great nation. And I am quit sure todays religious right would make most if not all of the framers vomit, just before they dismantled the religious right.
So maybe i do have something against Christianity being forced on us Americans that are supposed to have that freedom of religion guaranteed by the Constitution.
Well now,a disinterested atheist suddenly takes a huge jump into another area and direction showing just what I said...a hatred for Christianity alone because they perceive that to be a roadblock to leftist political goals.
At least be honest about it,you couldn`t care less about any other religion on earth.
You make the charge so you provide the evidence...show me where you are forced by the government to worship as a Christian.
Tell me where there has been an attempt by anyone to establish an official religion such as the the church of England.
No dude,the framers would not be the least bit riled by the Christian right simply fighting for the ability to practice their beliefs in the face of those such as you who would destroy all evidence of it to satisfy your own atheism.
Look closely at what you want and you will find IT is the exact thing you accuse Christians of and yes the framers would vomit to know someone wanted to undo the right to freely practice and believe what they wish without your ilk trying to tie a stigma to it.
-
Well now,a disinterested atheist suddenly takes a huge jump into another area and direction showing just what I said...a hatred for Christianity alone because they perceive that to be a roadblock to leftist political goals.
At least be honest about it,you couldn`t care less about any other religion on earth.
You make the charge so you provide the evidence...show me where you are forced by the government to worship as a Christian.
Tell me where there has been an attempt by anyone to establish an official religion such as the the church of England.
No dude,the framers would not be the least bit riled by the Christian right simply fighting for the ability to practice their beliefs in the face of those such as you who would destroy all evidence of it to satisfy your own atheism.
Look closely at what you want and you will find IT is the exact thing you accuse Christians of and yes the framers would vomit to know someone wanted to undo the right to freely practice and believe what they wish without your ilk trying to tie a stigma to it.
:bird: I am not a f##### leftist.
"in god we trust" "one nation under god" "place your hand on the bible and repeat after me" "so help me God"
All of which were installed well after the framers were done.
Just a little advice Atheism does not equal 'left'. And your assumptions about me and who you think i am, speaks huge volumes about yourself. I have simply spoke my opinion on a subject. You choose to personally attack myself rather then the points that i have made. Is it because you cannot return anything substantial?
I never have and never will disallow a fellow American from practicing their faith. I actually promote citizens to enjoy that Constitutional right. You are just assuming that since I said I am a Atheist that I must be against any religious proceedings.
Just listen to me rather then applying all your angst towards me, that should be applied to the actual people that your talking about.
the Christian Right is not "simply fighting for the ability to practice their beliefs"
It has been said that our laws and government are based on the bible and Christian beliefs. Yet most of the framers were deists, not Christians. Now the religious right is trying to rewrite history and impose biblical law. Which would have the same effect as imposing sharia law, it would replace the government that the framers created.
http://candst.tripod.com/tnppage/arg10a.htm
Contrary to the claims of many accommodationists, virtually nothing in the Constitution references Christian thought and morality. The only explicit mention of religion is the article VI declaration that "no religious Test shall ever be required as a Qualification to any Office or public Trust under the United States." Otherwise, the Constitution is wholly concerned with the secular issues of defining federal power, and distributing that power among the various branches of government. Quite against the practice of state constitutions, the federal Constitution does not quote or refer to the Bible, does not set up any religion above another, does not refer to God, and does not raise or rule upon religious questions. It is a remarkably secular document for its day and age.
Our e-mail correspondents have occasionally argued that that the structure of our federal government is derived from the Bible; this claim rests on little more than wishful thinking. The most important features of our federal government include (1) a separation of powers among three branches of government, (2) a bicameral legislature, (3) different modes of representation in each chamber of the legislature, (4) a limited executive, (5) and independent judiciary, and (6) a complex system of checks and balances. No model of government found in the Bible corresponds to this outline. Ancient Israel was governed first by Judges and then by Kings; in neither system was there separation of powers (i.e., the executive acted as both lawmaker and judge), nor was there any clear distinction between secular and religious law. Nowhere in the Old Testament do we find anything like a bicameral legislature, or an independent judiciary. Conversely, the New Testament does not contain a model of government; it simply does not function as a political document in the same way as, eg., the Q'uran does in Islam.
Some accommodationists claim that founders derived the principle of separation of powers from Isaiah 33:22, "For the LORD is our judge, the LORD is our lawgiver, the LORD is our King; he will save us." Apart from the fact that there is no evidence that this verse was ever referred to by the founders in this context, this argument fails on it's own assumptions: the Constitution sets up an elected executive, not a King, and the tenor of the verse is anti separation-of-powers; it says that all three branches are properly united in one person, the LORD. That the founders would read this verse and derive from it a mandate for divided powers is neither logical nor plausible.
Nor is there any relationship between the Constitution and the 10 Commandments. The Constitution fairly repudiates the first two commandments (i.e., it leaves us free to worship other Gods than the LORD, and to make graven images), and is silent on commandments three through ten. Laws against blasphemy, Sabbath breaking, dishonoring parents, murder, adultery, stealing, false witness, and coveting are left entirely to the states.
-
:bird: I am not a f##### leftist.
"in god we trust" "one nation under god" "place your hand on the bible and repeat after me" "so help me God"
All of which were installed well after the framers were done.
Just a little advice Atheism does not equal 'left'. And your assumptions about me and who you think i am, speaks huge volumes about yourself. I have simply spoke my opinion on a subject. You choose to personally attack myself rather then the points that i have made. Is it because you cannot return anything substantial?
I never have and never will disallow a fellow American from practicing their faith. I actually promote citizens to enjoy that Constitutional right. You are just assuming that since I said I am a Atheist that I must be against any religious proceedings.
Just listen to me rather then applying all your angst towards me, that should be applied to the actual people that your talking about.
the Christian Right is not "simply fighting for the ability to practice their beliefs"
It has been said that our laws and government are based on the bible and Christian beliefs. Yet most of the framers were deists, not Christians. Now the religious right is trying to rewrite history and impose biblical law. Which would have the same effect as imposing sharia law, it would replace the government that the framers created.
http://candst.tripod.com/tnppage/arg10a.htm
Your hysterics do not impress me nor change anything,by your own admission you come here from Old Elm Tree...a site for cast off DUmmies and as leftist as any could be.
Why would you have been a part of that and when banned now you land here claiming you are not a leftist.
Your first two posts here were in the Religious discussion forum,mocking God and Christianity,not exactly a hobby of conservatives.
Your attempts to paint yourself as simply wanting discussion are tripped up by the facts on the ground and the bolded part of your quote proves that you are a lunatic and or an idiot.
Please show me where anyone is attempting to do what you say...anywhere in this country...you can`t because it isn`t happening.
Want to cry about "In God we trust" on a coin...tough,if the majority of the country have a problem with it our representatives will change it.
Evidently their freedom to believe what they want is not as important as your sensitivities,but militant atheism doesn`t care.
You are the one doing all you can to impose your belief system on everyone else and the fact is what you came here to push proves it.
-
"place your hand on the bible and repeat after me" "so help me God"
All of which were installed well after the framers were done.
Completely untrue, and an attempt on your part to "rewrite history" as you accuse Christians of doing. A bit of research will teach you that George Washington, our first president, and "Father of our Country", was sworn in on a Masonic Bible that has been used to swear in many presidents since. This same Bible was used to open the Continental Congress well before our Constitution was ratified.
His final words when taking the oath were "so help me God".....
If you are interested Washington's inaugural Bible (and its history for the founders) it is on display at the George Washington Masonic Memorial in Alexandria, VA. True, many of the founders were Deists, and many were Christians, however you will find few, if any, true atheists as you define the term.
But I digress......I asked you a question above, and am still patiently awaiting your answer.
doc
-
Your hysterics do not impress me nor change anything,by your own admission you come here from Old Elm Tree...a site for cast off DUmmies and as leftist as any could be.
Why would you have been a part of that and when banned now you land here claiming you are not a leftist.
Your first two posts here were in the Religious discussion forum,mocking God and Christianity,not exactly a hobby of conservatives.
Your attempts to paint yourself as simply wanting discussion are tripped up by the facts on the ground and the bolded part of your quote proves that you are a lunatic and or an idiot.
Please show me where anyone is attempting to do what you say...anywhere in this country...you can`t because it isn`t happening.
Want to cry about "In God we trust" on a coin...tough,if the majority of the country have a problem with it our representatives will change it.
Evidently their freedom to believe what they want is not as important as your sensitivities,but militant atheism doesn`t care.
You are the one doing all you can to impose your belief system on everyone else and the fact is what you came here to push proves it.
lol ok fine use that logic believe me to be what you want. I have told you now more then once that I am not a Socialist. And I also explained why I was at OET in the first place. If you refuse to believe what i say then why should I care?
I mean no matter how many times you tell me what to think it wont make me think what you want. It would seem that this site is much like OET after all.
I say one thing then people like you say that I meant something entirely different. then when I point out that, that person is misrepresenting my own words then the accusations fly. Go ahead go with that position, feel free to call me a leftist all you want. It will not change the fact that I am not a leftist.
You my friend remind me of the reason I was leaving OET in the first place. And so far the waters are looking rather choppy here.
-
Oi. You come here from post one and seek to proselytize YOUR religion onto us, and then project the idea that some phantom "Religious Right" is seeking to impose the Christian version of Sharia law on the United States.
Isn't it funny that some atheists are bent on imposing their version of the truth on us as any doorbell ringing Jehovah's Witness?