The Conservative Cave
Current Events => The DUmpster => Topic started by: SSG Snuggle Bunny on November 11, 2010, 08:15:30 AM
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howard112211 (857 posts) Journal Click to send private message to this author Click to add this author to your buddy list Click to add this author to your Ignore list Thu Nov-11-10 01:41 PM
Original message
Does one have to reject the notion of free will completely to be a liberal?
Edited on Thu Nov-11-10 01:43 PM by howard112211
I wonder, because it seems like this is how liberalism vs. conservatism is traditionally framed: The conservative emphasizes the importance of individual choices, while the liberal emphasizes the conditions under which those decisions were made.
I am torn on this because I consider myself a liberal, but I do have a strong belief in the free will of the individual. I consider myself liberal because I think society should work to ensure that making the right choices as easy as possible. I believe in free (in the sense of taxpayer funded) health care from craddle to grave, free education all the way through grad school, a decent safety net for the case of unemployment, labor unions, freedom to marry whoever one wants and freedom to make reproductive choices.
At the same time, I do believe that we carry the full burden of responsibility for the choices we make, and should not expect a free pass for any of them. I also believe that choices of some sort always exist, even under extreme circumstances. Take for instance a case where one is in a situation where one thinks one has to steal to survive or feed ones family. There are choices: Do I rob a store in the middle of the night when I expect no people to be present or do I rob it in the middle of the day where uninvolved people may be around? Do I bring a gun when I break into the store or do I not? Likewise, consider a case where factory workers are going on strike. An individual might think "well, I have to feed my family so I am going to work anyway". However, others are in the same situation as well, so ultimately, siding with the union or breaking the strike is a choice. A strong union would ensure that everyone's family gets fed. Likewise, if it is only about ones own survival, some people choose to perish rather than kill to survive.
I believe in free will philosophically (quantum theory and yadda yadda), but also from a pragmatic point of view: I think when people believe they don't have a free will but rather are the victim of circumstance, they are more likely to behave as if they didn't have a free will, and rely on getting a free pass due to circumstance.
So, is my view of things inconsistent with standard liberalism or marxist materialism or what?
That's actually pretty fair coming from their side.
I applaud him.
It's the jackasses that follow that are irksome:
Sherman A1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Journal Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list Click to add this author to your Ignore list Thu Nov-11-10 01:45 PM
Response to Original message
1. I think the reverse it more true
one needs to reject free will to become a conservative... They know what is good for all of us and are more than will[ing] to tell us, we just need to do what we are told. :banghead:
Which side has all but criminalized salt, sugar, incandescent light bulbs, tobacco, trans fat, health insurance, schools, retirement planning...
...And not because it's what best for the individual but because the individual is supposed to be sacrificing for the ephemerally defined "greater good."
Conservatives, at their worst say, "Giving condoms to people not old enough to have a credit card is a bad idea."
ananda Donating Member (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list Click to add this author to your Ignore list Thu Nov-11-10 01:52 PM
Response to Original message
2. You bought the twisted conservative lie.
Good grief.
It's conservatives who don't believe in freedom for individuals; it's liberals
who have historically favored freedom and rights for all individuals.
When conservatives gain power, just look at what happens to institutional
oppression with regard to targeted groups whose individuals suffer much
greater loss of freedom and rights. Reproductive choice is compromised
for women, for example, along with wage and right to work laws for
workers and unions. The idea is that women should basically be slaves,
not owning their own bodies; and workers should also basically be either
wage slaves or unemployed.
Conservatives want to control people's bodies and lives to the nth degree.
Liberals want to see people actually able to pursue life, liberty, and happiness
on their own terms. Sometimes that means that government has to intervene
in order to provide a more level playing field and more equal distribution of
wealth, and this is needed in a society where the rich elites and corporations
want so much control over people in order to move money upwards.
Abortion no more protected the rights of women than slavery protected the economic freedom of plantation owners. Whatever "freedom" these institutions purchase is done at the expensive far beyond its worth.
BzaDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Journal Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list Click to add this author to your Ignore list Thu Nov-11-10 01:55 PM
Response to Reply #2
4. The difference is how both sides perceive freedom. Conservatives believe in economic freedom
where people should keep "the fruits of their own labor" as defined by how much the fruits of their labor are worth to others.
Liberals believe that we have a responsibility to help those in need. Not just because that is the morally correct thing to do, but also because one's wealth is determined significantly by outside circumstances in addition to one's own labor.
1. Gimme the power over all your money and every economic freedom and tell me how easily you can live your life as you see fit.
2. Your belief in helping others invariably leads you to tell a separate party how they must act and you do so against their consent.
Swede Donating Member (1000+ posts) Journal Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list Click to add this author to your Ignore list Thu Nov-11-10 01:56 PM
Response to Original message
5. Conservatives believe in a strong leader.
They want to be led by this strong leader. Being a leader of liberals is like herding cats. ,
We want a Patton.
You want a Mussolini.
Patton was for winning wars.
Mussolini wanted to run every aspect of people's lives.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x9534859
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Like many DUmmy posts, they forgot something:
(http://files.turbosquid.com/Preview/Content_2009_07_14__07_36_29/projector_3ds_01.jpg467d760d-7aa6-4aee-8079-c36f0964f10eLarge.jpg)
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That guy will never make 1000 posts.
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I am torn on this because I consider myself a liberal, but I do have a strong belief in the free will of the individual. I consider myself liberal because I think society should work to ensure that making the right choices as easy as possible. I believe in free (in the sense of taxpayer funded) health care from craddle to grave, free education all the way through grad school, a decent safety net for the case of unemployment, labor unions, freedom to marry whoever one wants and freedom to make reproductive choices.
You deceive yourself DUmmy into thinking you want some individual liberty...you wish for a fantasy utopia where no choices,decisions or responsibility needs to exist.