The Conservative Cave
Interests => Around the House & In the Garage => Topic started by: Gratiot on November 04, 2010, 06:28:03 PM
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Do tool brands even mean anything any more? Or even country of origin for that matter?
It's with great reluctance that I've come to the conclusion, at least IMO that there's no denying Taiwan and China (to some extent) can manufacture great quality tools. Especially seeing as Matco and Snap On are at least partially made there now. Germany, France, Japan, Sweden, and Italy have always had some great tool lines. But it seems everything now is just relabeled and contract produced now, sigh... at least it means there's some great bargains for quality tools now.
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Do tool brands even mean anything any more? Or even country of origin for that matter?
It's with great reluctance that I've come to the conclusion, at least IMO that there's no denying Taiwan and China (to some extent) can manufacture great quality tools. Especially seeing as Matco and Snap On are at least partially made there now. Germany, France, Japan, Sweden, and Italy have always had some great tool lines. But it seems everything now is just relabeled and contract produced now, sigh... at least it means there's some great bargains for quality tools now.
YES!! Chinese hand tools are made to very loose tolerances and cheap steel. Even Sears Craftsman Tools are crap when compared to Matco, Snap-On, MAC, etc. A Craftsman Phillips screwdriver will strip out a phillips head screw in a NY minute. The better quality tools won't. Even Craftsman wrenches will "expand" when too much torque is applied. I've watched it happen. I DO have a set of tools that was made in China that I keep in the truck for emergency repairs. Those seem to be pretty decent. I found them at a Walmart in Virginia. I haven't been able to find another set like them. (It's a "Popular Mechanics" set with just about everything one could need for vehicle maintenance.)
That said, when it comes to drills drivers, electric saws, weed eaters, and some things like that, I've had really good luck with Ryobi. HOWEVER, their drill bits are mediocre.
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Do not buy anything at Harbor Freight. This I know.
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Do not buy anything at Harbor Freight. This I know.
They sell a lot of Chinese junk. But, I got some good deals on Peltor hearing protectors there. 1/3 of the price at other places.
Vise-Grip is Taiwan produced now. You can still buy the American ones, but, they cost more. They are worth the quality. The Taiwanese ones wear out faster.
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I wouldn't mind one of the Dewalt rapid fire nail guns.
(http://toolmonger.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/07/Dewalt-16-Side-450.jpg)
http://toolmonger.com/2008/07/14/update-dewalt-16/
:-)
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Do tool brands even mean anything any more? Or even country of origin for that matter?
It's with great reluctance that I've come to the conclusion, at least IMO that there's no denying Taiwan and China (to some extent) can manufacture great quality tools. Especially seeing as Matco and Snap On are at least partially made there now. Germany, France, Japan, Sweden, and Italy have always had some great tool lines. But it seems everything now is just relabeled and contract produced now, sigh... at least it means there's some great bargains for quality tools now.
Matco and snap on are very expensive and not worth the money unless you are a mechanic. Craftsman has gone down in quality but they have a lifetime replacement. As far as power tools...I spend the money for either makita or porter cable better quality and more power! I disagree with Thor...I think Ryobis are junk along with craftsman power tools...Have burned up both in my time! :-)
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Matco and snap on are very expensive and not worth the money unless you are a mechanic. Craftsman has gone down in quality but they have a lifetime replacement. As far as power tools...I spend the money for either makita or porter cable better quality and more power! I disagree with Thor...I think Ryobis are junk along with craftsman power tools...Have burned up both in my time! :-)
I have a Ryobi Drill (18V that's four years old and still going strong) I have a Ryobi Circular saw (corded) that's 12 years old and works like new. Dollar for dollar, I'll match the Ryobi to your Makitas or Porter Cables. Hell, I used my Ryobi drill drivers on aircraft and my vehicles all of the time. The biggest problem I have with the Ryobis are dropping them from a height of over six feet. The frame didn't survive. When I was working on aircraft and vehicles (my own) Craftsmen tools were FAR inferior, especially when it came to aircraft. (sizing, fit, etc just weren't as good as snap on or other better tools) Cars, not as bad, but the wrenches or sockets would still round off bolt heads when Snap On tools wouldn't. For general around the house use, they'll get a person by.
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I bought a complete line of Craftsman tools in the early Eighties, plus inherited a few from my Dad - he probably bought those in the Sixties. I managed to wear out a 3/8 drive ratchet and had that replaced a couple months ago. OMG. The difference in quality was like night and day.
For what I do, Craftsman is still okay. Just bought a 1/2" drive ratchet and sockets (12 point - God, I hate those) and a few extensions. Like Thor said, they get me by. I am by no means any kind of mechanic - just get 'er done.
As far as power tools is concerned, I'll buy Black and Decker. It's cheap, it's not something that a real mechanic would use, but that gets me by too. I have two 3/8" drive drill drivers, 18V, and I use 'em fairly often. I have a 1/2" drive corded drill that I bought in the Seventies and it's still going strong, and I have a . A hammer drill, Ryobi compound miter saw (this is another one I use all the time) and a Makashita portable table saw round out my power tools, except for a few more drills.
One can never have too many drills.
:-)
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I bought a complete line of Craftsman tools in the early Eighties, plus inherited a few from my Dad - he probably bought those in the Sixties. I managed to wear out a 3/8 drive ratchet and had that replaced a couple months ago. OMG. The difference in quality was like night and day.
For what I do, Craftsman is still okay. Just bought a 1/2" drive ratchet and sockets (12 point - God, I hate those) and a few extensions. Like Thor said, they get me by. I am by no means any kind of mechanic - just get 'er done.
As far as power tools is concerned, I'll buy Black and Decker. It's cheap, it's not something that a real mechanic would use, but that gets me by too. I have two 3/8" drive drill drivers, 18V, and I use 'em fairly often. I have a 1/2" drive corded drill that I bought in the Seventies and it's still going strong, and I have a . A hammer drill, Ryobi compound miter saw (this is another one I use all the time) and a Makashita portable table saw round out my power tools, except for a few more drills.
One can never have too many drills.
:-)
When I was building my deck when I lived in Becker, MN, I had FOUR Ryobi battery drills, 2-12 Volt & 2-14 Volt. They worked awesomely. (I had a crew of six helping to screw the deck boards down) I had two corded drills , too. 1300 sq ft deck.
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I use alot of "cheap" tools at work, eventhough it's my livlihood. PIttsburgh Forge, CT, ect..... for over 25 years. I've had Craftsman ratchets break before Husky's ever did. I do not believe in the Mattco, Snap-on, or
any other "must buy USA made" hype. Sorry, they haven't held up as well as the chicom, chiwanese or Japanese stuff.
I don't own my soul/paycheck to the Snap-off man either.
The "Pro" stuff at HF is pretty damn good, and you won't go broke.
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I picked up an Allen wrench socket at Auto Zone on my way to the junkyard because it was convenient. The second I put any torque on it, that stupid thing shredded into a dozen pieces. I switched to the no-name forged Allen wrenches in my toolbox, which I should have done in the first place. Stupid waste of money.
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"Black & Decker"-branded household products in the Americas (but outside of Brazil) are marketed by a division of Applica, a Florida-based corporation much smaller than Black & Decker Corporation. None of Black & Decker's power tools are manufactured in the United States of America any longer.
Brands include:
* DeWalt
* Porter-Cable
* Delta Machinery
* DeVilbiss Air Power
* Kwikset
* Baldwin
* Weiser Lock
* Price Pfister
* Emhart Teknologies
* Oldham Blades
* Black and Decker Firestorm
* Vector
:whistling: FYI
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Most of my power-tools are Makita, mechanical tools like wrenches, spanners and socket sets are Bahco and non-powered carpentry tools are from Stanley.
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Hand tools I have mostly NAPA premium ones with some of their cheaper Evercraft stuff.
More specialized things are all across the board,torque wrench is an SK,dial indicators,bore gauges and calipers are various brands with some OTC specialty engine tools.
I have found MSC to be a good source of tools.
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I buy cheap tools because if they don't break, I lose them. :bawl: :bawl: :bawl: But my very favorites are some from my grandfather. I have no clue how old they are, but I started being really careful with them because they were passed down...and kept being really careful not to lay them down anywhere because they are way better than anything I've found anywhere today.
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I've filled up three toolboxes with tools so far. I've had to replace some of them that broke through my own negligence (I'm on my second vacuum gauge) and some I had to throw out because they broke during normal use (I've lost a few hand wrenches because the bolt head broke off inside and I couldn't get it back out). I couldn't really give you a brand name, but I would be willing to try Snap-On or Matco if I could find them in the stores I go to. I buy what is available, which usually suits my purposes.
I've found more often that a tool that suits its purpose will do a better job than one that does not. Task-specific tools can be a pain in the ass, but they're better than trying to bullshit your way through a job and damaging the tools you have or the machine you're working on.
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I've filled up three toolboxes with tools so far. I've had to replace some of them that broke through my own negligence (I'm on my second vacuum gauge) and some I had to throw out because they broke during normal use (I've lost a few hand wrenches because the bolt head broke off inside and I couldn't get it back out). I couldn't really give you a brand name, but I would be willing to try Snap-On or Matco if I could find them in the stores I go to. I buy what is available, which usually suits my purposes.
I've found more often that a tool that suits its purpose will do a better job than one that does not. Task-specific tools can be a pain in the ass, but they're better than trying to bullshit your way through a job and damaging the tools you have or the machine you're working on.
Snap-On, MATCO, & MAC can only be purchased from their retailers. They drive BIG tool trucks.
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Snap-On, MATCO, & MAC can only be purchased from their retailers. They drive BIG tool trucks.
Am I supposed to flag one down? Jump into traffic to get it's attention?
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Am I supposed to flag one down? Jump into traffic to get it's attention?
LOL, yep!! Jump right out in front of them !!! :-)
On the serious side, find a mechanic shop that uses them and ask when they come by or get a phone number. I will caution you, they ARE EXPENSIVE!!
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I've found more often that a tool that suits its purpose will do a better job than one that does not. Task-specific tools can be a pain in the ass, but they're better than trying to bullshit your way through a job and damaging the tools you have or the machine you're working on.
Again, I'm no mechanic, but this is absolutely spot on. Trying to improvise using a tool usually winds up with something busted (like the very thing I'm trying to fix), or something more painful like my knuckles or some other body part.
I'll go buy the damned tool and, usually what happens, forget I own it before I need it again. Then wind up buying another one. :banghead:
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That's why I have extra toolboxes. I've used my fuel pressure gauge once, but I have to keep it somewhere. Ditto for the vacuum gauge... I don't want to by another one.
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I used to haul all my shit around the Pull-a-Part in a single toolbox until I wised up and bought a small one to keep the bare minimum of tools in. Now I don't wear myself out hiking to the end of the yard.
The other boxes eventually filled up on their own.
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My tool box is 40" wide, 20" deep and about 68" tall. It doesn't transport very easily....
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Am I supposed to flag one down? Jump into traffic to get it's attention?
Chris, you can actually order Snap On and Matco tools from their websites. Supposedly, after your spending reaches a certain limit, a local dealer will call you and try and build a relationship. They often discount via a flyer or email a group of tools every month or so, offering great deals on high end tools.
Generally, attempting to buy off of the trucks though is a PITA if you're an individual, try the online route.
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YES!! Chinese hand tools are made to very loose tolerances and cheap steel. Even Sears Craftsman Tools are crap when compared to Matco, Snap-On, MAC, etc. A Craftsman Phillips screwdriver will strip out a phillips head screw in a NY minute. The better quality tools won't. Even Craftsman wrenches will "expand" when too much torque is applied. I've watched it happen. I DO have a set of tools that was made in China that I keep in the truck for emergency repairs. Those seem to be pretty decent. I found them at a Walmart in Virginia. I haven't been able to find another set like them. (It's a "Popular Mechanics" set with just about everything one could need for vehicle maintenance.)
That said, when it comes to drills drivers, electric saws, weed eaters, and some things like that, I've had really good luck with Ryobi. HOWEVER, their drill bits are mediocre.
I absolutely agree that Matco and Snap-On are spot on, for generally having the highest quality tools across their given lines. You're paying a premium, but the quality and service is phenomenal! However, it seems all of the cross-spectrum tool brands utilize contract manufacturing now and have shipped production overseas. It just seems a bit irksome to me at times, granted... with those brands you're also paying for customer service and support.
Amongst the widely considered Tier 1 brands:
Snap-On, now has one of the largest high-quality tool production facilities in... China. They produce for other brands, parts for Snap-On's internal customers (to be assembled in America), and coincidentally have now removed the "Made in the USA" stamps on their tools. Even Snap-On's website, lists more and more of not just the Blue-Point line but Snap-On as well, as having China or Taiwan listed as the country of origin. Still, Snap-On makes some of the best tools in the world, without question. Although, with some items, others makes are better.
Matco, is pretty much right beside Snap-On, for the most part, IMHO. However, Matco is getting more and more into contract and Taiwanese manufacturing. The quality IS still there, without a doubt IMO, but it's still irksome. Thankfully, most of Matco's outsourcing tends to go to Snap-On like quality manufacturers such as Knipex, Whitte, Facom, etc. Still, unless you're receiving a great discount, or are utilizing Matco's warranty, the average person can save a bundle by ordering directly from the source brands. I also tend to think Matco's boxes are, on average, higher quality than Snap-On's or at least particularly in the sub-$10k boxes.
Mac, eeks... I pretty much stay far away from, and the whole "MadeAcrossChina" jests, don't seem too far off based. Regardless, I've personally never had the best experience with Mac, and with how the whole Stanley fiasco unfolded... I'm too leery of the company.
Cornwell, I've never had much experience with. They don't, or used to not allow online ordering, seeing as it's an employee/dealer owned company. From scanning their catalogs though, it's apparent that a lot of it is contract manufactured out. Sometimes it's worth it to pay more, if you're having great service from a truck or sales rep visiting you, but if you're not...
Armstrong, which now can be found at Sears.com and local Fastenal distributors in addition to industrial supply houses are still one of the best all around professional quality brands with a balance of quality, service, and value. Danaher has been always aiming to target the brand to industrial facilities as about 10-15% below Snap-On in quality, but at upwards of a 25-30% savings. Considering distributors can often give additional discounts as loss leaders, they really can be a great buy. Plus, their hand tools at least are made here.
Of course, than again you have the Knipex, Whitte, Facom, Wiha, Wera, Beta, etc. Euro brands which without a doubt are all up there, but a bit hard to find or have serviced here.
Not that Craftsman is considered in the same quality as those listed above, but there older stuff was of much higher quality, but long ago they realized more profits were to be had making tools for the masses. Certainly they're no where near the quality of the above brands. Additionally, they're marketing their brand now, and so almost all of it is contract manufactured out. My work actually banned Craftsman, not because they're necessarily bad tools, but because depending on who made the tools at the time... the quality would have staggering levels of difference. At times though, and with Sears aggressive discounting, Craftsman Pro tools are some of the highest quality and best valued tools, period! For awhile they had Knipex producing some tongue and groove pliers, Matco adjustable wrenches, and Armstrong sockets... of course, the next production cycle can have a new lowest-cost bidder, with a quality level that falls in suit. Which of course, could be irritating when you go in to replace a high-end Armstrong socket and are given garbage.
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Matco and snap on are very expensive and not worth the money unless you are a mechanic. Craftsman has gone down in quality but they have a lifetime replacement. As far as power tools...I spend the money for either makita or porter cable better quality and more power! I disagree with Thor...I think Ryobis are junk along with craftsman power tools...Have burned up both in my time! :-)
I'm in absolute agreement, Matco and Snap-On are not worth while, unless you're able to write them off on your taxes and using them for a living. In those cases though... they often, not always, are worth the money.
Craftsman's little hassle, lifetime replacement plan, is certainly what makes them worthwhile. I have a ton of their socket sets at home, but as Thor mentions they do round off bolts and break far too frequently. For home use though, when time isn't an issue, I'll gladly take the savings and minor hassle of running to the nearest Sears for a replacement, with infrequently used socket sets.
Makita, Porter Cable, Bosch, Milwaukee (to some extent), and Dewalt all make great power tools. At least until you pick up a Hilti :o
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I use alot of "cheap" tools at work, eventhough it's my livlihood. PIttsburgh Forge, CT, ect..... for over 25 years. I've had Craftsman ratchets break before Husky's ever did. I do not believe in the Mattco, Snap-on, or
any other "must buy USA made" hype. Sorry, they haven't held up as well as the chicom, chiwanese or Japanese stuff. I don't own my soul/paycheck to the Snap-off man either.
The "Pro" stuff at HF is pretty damn good, and you won't go broke.
I agree, it's absurd that some people are practically indentured to a tool truck bill. Especially, guys just out of trade school, whom are already facing $15-20k tool loans from Snap-On... which isn't uncommon. Without a doubt there are cheaper alternatives now, which is partly what I originally was trying to discuss with this thread. While the majority of Chinese and Taiwan tools are very low end... they do have some very nice tools at quite reasonable prices, especially Taiwanese stuff like the Gearwrench brand. In most cases, they are still night and day in quality from Snap-On and Matco... but who cares (in most applications), when they're still good to great tools at a reasonable price.
At the very least though, try picking up a few nice 4-5 degree, 80+ teeth, high quality ratchets... the smoothness is amazing! Your hands will be thankful, if you're using them regularly.
I've never been a "Must Buy USA" person for anything, but I've been always inclined to lean towards locally made stuff or at the very least, from a reputable quality based country.
Craftsman and Husky are both generally designed to compete with each other now, so neither brand is going to be a particularly better quality buy, in general.
I picked up an Allen wrench socket at Auto Zone on my way to the junkyard because it was convenient. The second I put any torque on it, that stupid thing shredded into a dozen pieces. I switched to the no-name forged Allen wrenches in my toolbox, which I should have done in the first place. Stupid waste of money.
Allen tools are marketed by Danaher as their very entry level brand of tools, supposedly similar to Craftsman, but NOT Craftsman Pro.
Most of my power-tools are Makita, mechanical tools like wrenches, spanners and socket sets are Bahco and non-powered carpentry tools are from Stanley.
How do you like the Bahco tools? Since they're now a division of Snap-On, they're being marketed along side Williams in Snap-On's pseudo-industrial line. I really don't have any experience with them though.
Hand tools I have mostly NAPA premium ones with some of their cheaper Evercraft stuff.
More specialized things are all across the board,torque wrench is an SK,dial indicators,bore gauges and calipers are various brands with some OTC specialty engine tools.
I have found MSC to be a good source of tools.
NAPA premium tools are contract manufactured, at times they've been some extremely high quality tools!
S&K actually just went into liquidation, all of their factory tooling and equipment is currently up on some industrial auction sites. I think Ideal bought the brand name though, and is planning on bringing them back to some extent.
MSC's Saver fliers have phenomenal deals listed as loss leaders, always great for cherry picking! Another good one is ToolTopia.com, it focuses more on auto repair tools but has some of the best prices online. They also carry and discount many of the brand that relabel their stuff for Snap-On, Matco, Cornwell, Etc... HUGE savings, for the same tools with different colored handles :whatever:
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How do you like the Bahco tools? Since they're now a division of Snap-On, they're being marketed along side Williams in Snap-On's pseudo-industrial line. I really don't have any experience with them though.
Bahco are beautiful tools. Well made , ergonomic as is possible , precise in their fit and feel. Highly recommended if you want something that's nearly-as-good as Snap-ON but not as pricey.
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What? No Kobalt reviews?
I'm curious because they have the same warranty as Snap-on, Matco, Mac, Craftsman, ect and look to be decent tools. No one has any experience with them though?
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What? No Kobalt reviews?
I'm curious because they have the same warranty as Snap-on, Matco, Mac, Craftsman, ect and look to be decent tools. No one has any experience with them though?
I have a few of their hand tools, and my big-assed toolbox (probably close in size to Thor's mentioned upthread) works well.
No complaints from me about Kobalt.