The Conservative Cave
Current Events => The DUmpster => Topic started by: SSG Snuggle Bunny on September 29, 2010, 11:21:10 AM
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DainBramaged (1000+ posts) Wed Sep-29-10 02:32 PM
Original message
GM prepares to shut Indianapolis plant after workers reject concessions
General Motors Co. has started the wind-down of its Indianapolis stamping plant after UAW-represented workers yesterday overwhelmingly rejected a proposed 50 percent pay cut that was sought by a potential new owner of the plant.
GM spokeswoman Kim Carpenter said GM has ended its search for a potential buyer.
“We are disappointed that UAW Local 23 was not able to ratify the proposed labor agreement,†Carpenter said in an e-mail.
“As previously announced, we will continue steps to wind down the facility, which will cease production in mid-2011 and close by December 2011.â€
Gregory Clark, UAW Local 23 shop chairman, said last week that the cuts were too deep and the plant's 650 workers would take their chances transferring to another GM plant should jobs open. He said about one-third of the hourly work force is eligible to retire.
Clark was critical of the intervention by the UAW International into the issue. In May, the workers overwhelmingly said they did not want to initiate concession talks with the potential new owner, stamper J.D. Norman Industries.
http://www.autonews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/2010...
The potential new owner was Chinese. They wanted SKILLED lifelong machinists to work for $14 an hour and cut benefits to the bone. Of course many here will whine, that $14 is a lot of money. Bullshit. $14 an hour is $28,000 a year gross. Support a family and pay a mortgage on that.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x9221517
Bunnies have never been strong at math but I'm going to say: $14/hr. > $0/hr.
Now dig this little gem:
blindpig (1000+ posts) Wed Sep-29-10 02:41 PM
Response to Original message
1. Repeal Taft-Hartley
By banning 'sympathy strikes' this odious legislation removed one of labor's chief weapons from the game. A bunch of sympathy strikes would would give GM pause, to say the least.
Why has the Democratic party not revisited this reactionary law? Whose side are they on?
Is it not ironic that "this reactionary law" stands in the way of striking against a ChiCom buy-out offer? He wants all this Marxist ideology to govern worker comnpensation but it is a Marxist government that deems the worker to be overly compensated and not worth subsidizing.
DainBramaged (1000+ posts) Wed Sep-29-10 03:17 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. Whose side are they on? Follow the money.....
Yesterday the opportunity to roll back the law rewarding companies for outsourcing was defeated by four DemoRATS who sided with the Pukes to kill the bill.
http://www.mlive.com/michigan-job-search/index.ssf/2010...
An anti-outsourcing bill introduced by Senate Democrats was defeated in a cloture vote today on a vote of 53-45. Four Democrats joined all Republicans and Connecticut Independent Joe Lieberman to defeat the bill.
The bill would have ended certain tax credits, deductions and deferrals for U.S. companies expanding or moving overseas and given companies a two-year payroll tax holiday for any worker who was hired in the U.S. as a result of bringing jobs back from overseas.
The Senate Democrats voting against the bill’s advancement were Max Baucus and Jon Tester of Montana; Mark Warner of Virginia, and Ben Nelson of Nebraska. Lieberman, who also voted no, caucuses with Democrats.
What the **** do they have to worry about in Montana and Nebraska. And I AM SICK of these small state Senators deciding for the rest of us how our government is run.
I'm confused. The OP clearly states this is not a matter of outsourcing--where a US company sends jobs overseas--but of foreign company bringing capital into the US. Now that the union voted itself out of a job I suppose GM will have to seek stamped parts elsewhere and I suppose there is a significant possibility that such a manufacturer will be foreign but GM obvisouly made a good faith effort to hand-off control to another party and thereby keep the jobs in the US.
Even then the fault rests solely with the union who cast the ballot that decided their fate.
Even then still GM is owned by Obama.
Methinks this poster just wanted to find a reason to post this article as a slam against that meddlesome Jew from Connecticut, context be damned.
blindpig (1000+ posts) Wed Sep-29-10 03:31 PM
Response to Reply #2
5. Kinda my point
What you point out, the lack of party discipline, is a set piece which lets the Party have it both ways, "oh we're for this but these few won't play..." This guarantees the status quo and I think they like it that way.
The Senate is an anti-democratic institution.
The senate ensures NY and CA aren't the only states to gain their legislative will.
Sinistrous (1000+ posts) Wed Sep-29-10 03:28 PM
Response to Original message
4. "Concessions"?
My ass. Those terms were unconditional surrender.
Sucks that the plant will probably close.
And they have traded unconditional surrender for utter annihilation.
Brickbat (1000+ posts) Wed Sep-29-10 03:32 PM
Response to Original message
6. Better to die on your feet than live on your knees.
I respect the hell out of these brothers and sisters. I know that some people wouldn't make their choice and will say they should have taken the terrible cuts...but I'm not one of them.
Choose carefully the hill you want to die on.
Die? Oh who are we kidding. Obama will take leftover money that he extorted from BP and pay those union workers a hefty severance.
DainBramaged (1000+ posts) Wed Sep-29-10 03:56 PM
Response to Reply #6
9. At least a quarter of them (about 175) are OLD enough to retire
these are SKILLED machinists, physically fit to handle the rigors of a HUGE stamping plant, whose experience is invaluable. Now because of short term profit shortsightedness, they are out of the work force.
Damn those profit-seeking communists in China!!!
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Strikes by unions are almost always worthless. When you consider the amount of wages lost during a strike, they are never recovered by the eventual settlement. Those workers should have accepted the contract and then worked to better it over time.
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Why don't they sell the plant to the UAW? Let the union try to run it if they're so smart.
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So the UAW that controls GM, is going to do what GM management never had the balls to do to the UAW.
:popcorn:
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My heart bleeds. The ones that can retire could have retired anyway, all they are doing is screwing the ones who can't, but with one third who can retire, and probably another third that think they have the seniority to transfer, that leaves the youngest third completely hosed.
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My heart bleeds. The ones that can retire could have retired anyway, all they are doing is screwing the ones who can't, but with one third who can retire, and probably another third that think they have the seniority to transfer, that leaves the youngest third completely hosed.
The youngest of them, the apprentices, weren't makin' much more than $14/hr anyway! This is the "Good Ol' Boy" network screwin' everybody else!
Hell, how do ya expect them to make the payments on their Corvettes, BMW's, Mercedes, or their 38 foot Bayliners for cripes sake?? Give 'em a break! Who cares about those that can't afford those high dollar toys?
I think they ought to close the place down for two weeks and then re-hire outa the private sector. I'll lay odds they'll get four times as many applicants as they need to run the plant! It will just bust the frikkin' union! Which IMHO should be done across the US! It's exactly what needs to be done in order to bring manufacturing back to this country!
It's pretty simple economics! Ya just can't pay more for your product in expenses than ya can get outa sellin' the damn thing on the market! Why is it these union thugs don't understand this?????????
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From what I've heard, they wanted the union to concede to cutting wages for NEW HIRES to $14/hr, down from the $28-29/hr they are getting now, and to cut/limit their benefits until they have worked for a year. Union said "NYET", so now NONE of the SOB's will have a job. Smooth move, Ex-lax! :hammer:
DainBramaged (1000+ posts) Wed Sep-29-10 02:32 PM
Original message
Of course many here will whine, that $14 is a lot of money. Bullshit. $14 an hour is $28,000 a year gross. Support a family and pay a mortgage on that.
I did, and still do. BTW, Mr. Braindamaged Wizard, $14/hr comes out to $29,120/yr., before overtime.
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And they wonder why we call them DUmmies or stupid.
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And they wonder why we call them DUmmies or stupid.
But they are soooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo smart, doncha know!
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Happened to a paper mill right here. Same number, 650 employees, hosed by the union. Slam the gate, sorry fellas, go home. Where did they go? They were $17-$30 per hour jobs, with benefits. Guys could pull down $60K in a year with OT. There's no other place to go. Walmart greeter, and call-center operator.
That "better to die on your feet than live on your knees" is so easy to say, isn't it? Until reality smacks you in the face. And your family's face.
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From what I've heard, they wanted the union to concede to cutting wages for NEW HIRES to $14/hr, down from the $28-29/hr they are getting now, and to cut/limit their benefits until they have worked for a year. Union said "NYET", so now NONE of the SOB's will have a job. Smooth move, Ex-lax! :hammer:
I did, and still do. BTW, Mr. Braindamaged Wizard, $14/hr comes out to $29,120/yr., before overtime.
Not counting the benefits that they would have received. Health care bennies alone are worth several thousand, even more if the family is allowed on the policy.
So instead, they get to collect unemployment for 3+ years. Sure hope that unemployment check is enough to pay the mortgage, car and boat payments. :uhsure:
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Not counting the benefits that they would have received. Health care bennies alone are worth several thousand, even more if the family is allowed on the policy.
So instead, they get to collect unemployment for 3+ years. Sure hope that unemployment check is enough to pay the mortgage, car and boat payments. :uhsure:
I don't.
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I don't.
I was being sarcastic...because the check won't be enough to pay the mortgage, let alone anything else.
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UAW + GM = Self Correcting Problem
**** a union.
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Hell, now they can fire up some doobies and beer bongs not just on their breaks, but all day.
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Yes a 50 cent an hour cut may suck but, I would much rather lose that $20 a week than lose my job.
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I was being sarcastic...because the check won't be enough to pay the mortgage, let alone anything else.
I know, but I was being sincere. I truly hope they have to live in the real world without the umbrella of union protection, surviving on their skills and merits, not whether or not the belong to some "union".
The dumbasses knew what was at stake when they voted the union line instead of the bottom line. I have no pity for any of them, or their families.
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I know, but I was being sincere. I truly hope they have to live in the real world without the umbrella of union protection, surviving on their skills and merits, not whether or not the belong to some "union".
The dumbasses knew what was at stake when they voted the union line instead of the bottom line. I have no pity for any of them, or their families.
They vote for whatever they get...good or bad. This time, they are going to find out what it means "to cut off one's nose to spite one's face". It will be one thing to have to sell/or lose a ski boat or a couple of ski-dos.....it will be quite another when they lose their homes.
Dumb Dumb Dumb!!!!
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They vote for whatever they get...good or bad. This time, they are going to find out what it means "to cut off one's nose to spite one's face". It will be one thing to have to sell/or lose a ski boat or a couple of ski-dos.....it will be quite another when they lose their homes.
Dumb Dumb Dumb!!!!
Here, here! :clap:
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While I will say that 50% does suck big time, it's better than losing/voting yourself out of a job. Believe me, I've been there, not at 50% cut, but a cut none the less. I've had days shorten and have been laid off. None of that is fun. BUT,....if you have a choice to keep your job, even though you are getting a 50% pay cut, I say stay with it and see if things change in the future. If not, keep the job, while you have a job and benefits and look for another job somewhere else.
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While I will say that 50% does suck big time, it's better than losing/voting yourself out of a job. Believe me, I've been there, not at 50% cut, but a cut none the less. I've had days shorten and have been laid off. None of that is fun. BUT,....if you have a choice to keep your job, even though you are getting a 50% pay cut, I say stay with it and see if things change in the future. If not, keep the job, while you have a job and benefits and look for another job somewhere else.
Oops I read it wrong I thought it said a 50 cent an hour cut. :doh:
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This is what I don't understand, with a $14 hr beginning wage, they would take home more than they would have as a Union worker, at that rate. Notice they don't mention what they lose in Union dues.
At one time I looked at a mech. job in a lumber mill (Union). Swing paid 13.50 hr. However, after the dues, it ammounted to 8.75 hr. I asked why the Union took so much of a workers money. I got the usual "They fight for you against unfair, blah, blah.........."
The plant was sold (non profitable/gee wiz :whatever:) and the new owners did just what the Chi-coms would have done. Shut down the plant, and 2 weeks later reopened, and hired back anyone that wanted a job (non Union), at slightly less than Union wage, which turned out to be a RAISE.
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Wineslob, no kidding? I had no idea it was that steep!
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While I will say that 50% does suck big time, it's better than losing/voting yourself out of a job. Believe me, I've been there, not at 50% cut, but a cut none the less. I've had days shorten and have been laid off. None of that is fun. BUT,....if you have a choice to keep your job, even though you are getting a 50% pay cut, I say stay with it and see if things change in the future. If not, keep the job, while you have a job and benefits and look for another job somewhere else.
I got laid off from a pretty lucrative oilfield job. Worked my ass 70+ hours a week.
My leadership in the NG clued me in on a tech job down at state HQ. It was easily $10k/year less than I was making.
I took it because I have bunlets to support. I all but drained my savings making up the pay difference vs my bills.
I did my new job and I did it well. I did things far beyond my job description designing web pages etc.
When I wasn't working I was home studying to bring newer, shinier stuff to my job.
Last month they got me a new job scripted just for me in the same directorate doing mostly web design work. I'm pretty much left to my own devises.
I have recouped the pay gap plus a little more on top...and I'm working 4 10-hr days instead of the 70+ hour beast weeks I was before...in a nice warm, dry office. Now I've got skills, experience and no place to go but UP.
The only down side is I put on 10 lbs. sitting behind a desk.
These union idiots only saw the losses, not the opportunities.
I can't even get my pity meter to register on this one.
This is what I don't understand, with a $14 hr beginning wage, they would take home more than they would have as a Union worker, at that rate. Notice they don't mention what they lose in Union dues.
At one time I looked at a mech. job in a lumber mill (Union). Swing paid 13.50 hr. However, after the dues, it ammounted to 8.75 hr. I asked why the Union took so much of a workers money. I got the usual "They fight for you against unfair, blah, blah.........."
The plant was sold (non profitable/gee wiz :whatever:) and the new owners did just what the Chi-coms would have done. Shut down the plant, and 2 weeks later reopened, and hired back anyone that wanted a job (non Union), at slightly less than Union wage, which turned out to be a RAISE.
word
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From what I've heard, they wanted the union to concede to cutting wages for NEW HIRES to $14/hr, down from the $28-29/hr they are getting now, and to cut/limit their benefits until they have worked for a year. Union said "NYET", so now NONE of the SOB's will have a job. Smooth move, Ex-lax!
I have no problem with the wage cut or even limiting benefits....but a year seems a bit extreme yes? That doesn't even happen in a non union shop. Am i misunderstanding something? Most private companies i've worked for benefits kick in at 90 days!
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Seriously, how are these union members any different from someone who quits their job? they vote down a contract which insures they'll lose their job, than they shouldn't be eligible for unemployment at all, just like a person who quits their job isn't eligible for unemployment.
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I got laid off from a pretty lucrative oilfield job. Worked my ass 70+ hours a week.
My leadership in the NG clued me in on a tech job down at state HQ. It was easily $10k/year less than I was making.
I took it because I have bunlets to support. I all but drained my savings making up the pay difference vs my bills.
I did my new job and I did it well. I did things far beyond my job description designing web pages etc.
When I wasn't working I was home studying to bring newer, shinier stuff to my job.
Last month they got me a new job scripted just for me in the same directorate doing mostly web design work. I'm pretty much left to my own devises.
I have recouped the pay gap plus a little more on top...and I'm working 4 10-hr days instead of the 70+ hour beast weeks I was before...in a nice warm, dry office. Now I've got skills, experience and no place to go but UP.
The only down side is I put on 10 lbs. sitting behind a desk.
These union idiots only saw the losses, not the opportunities.
I can't even get my pity meter to register on this one.
I totally agree with you Bunny.
That's what people with motivation do, they get that drive to succeed or do better and attack it. Glad everything worked out for you. Good for you man! :cheersmate: :cheersmate:
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I've seen this happen up close and personal.
I was the engineer for a small agricultural implement manufacturer in the early '80s in a small town with just a couple of significant employers. Our work force, primarily welders and machine operators, were Teamsters for whatever reason. The average worker there made about double of what the average town resident made. The union floor sweeper made almost double my engineer salary.
It was a terrible time for farm related businesses, and the company owner called in the union reps to tell them that he needed for them to take a 50 cent/hr pay cut for a year or he would have to close the doors. They countered by saying that they would "submit" by agreeing to a 50 cent pay raise instead. The doors closed three weeks later, never to open again. After the fact, the rank and file were left wondering how they managed to let the union management convince them to screw themselves so completely.
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Wineslob, no kidding? I had no idea it was that steep!
Either did I. I asked what the net pay per hour was, considering that I was making about 8 at the time. I was shocked at just how much the Union confiscated. I declined to apply for the job.
The funny part was the guy showing me around the plant didn't think they would have any "problems" with the new owners, because that particular Union felt that they did not make too many demands and were "quiet".
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I've seen this happen up close and personal.
I was the engineer for a small agricultural implement manufacturer in the early '80s in a small town with just a couple of significant employers. Our work force, primarily welders and machine operators, were Teamsters for whatever reason. The average worker there made about double of what the average town resident made. The union floor sweeper made almost double my engineer salary.
It was a terrible time for farm related businesses, and the company owner called in the union reps to tell them that he needed for them to take a 50 cent/hr pay cut for a year or he would have to close the doors. They countered by saying that they would "submit" by agreeing to a 50 cent pay raise instead. The doors closed three weeks later, never to open again. After the fact, the rank and file were left wondering how they managed to let the union management convince them to screw themselves so completely.
Same thing happened to the Kaiser Aluminum plant over in Spokane about 20 years ago. It got downright dangerous when they started hirin' Scabs to finish their current contracts. They too shut it down! All of them ****ers took it in the shorts big time because they wouldn't listen to economic reality!
The union ingrains these people to think if they just hold out long enough they will get what the union hierarchy wants! Never mind the guy who actually does the work! It's the principal of the thing, according to their reps!
Who cares if ya have to go on Food Stamps! As long as the union bosses keep their money tree by you sendin' them 30% of your paycheck, they're allowed to gamble with your families future!
Unions used to serve a purpose in the days when it was downright dangerous to work for a livin'! Nowadays, all they want to do is keep the status quot for those in charge! To hell with the typical dues payer!!! He/she's expendable! After all, it's for the "common" cause! ( read communist )