The Conservative Cave
Interests => Religious Discussions => Topic started by: the_christian_left on September 11, 2010, 03:15:38 PM
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What We're All About:
What We're All About:
We're not about Dogma here. We're just Christians who think the political and Christian right-wing have their priorities wrong.
Wikipedia says it pretty well in the following 5 paragraphs:
The Christian left is a term originating in the United States, used to describe a spectrum of left-wing Christian political and social movements which largely embraces social justice.
The most common religious viewpoint which might be described as 'left wing' is social justice, or care for the poor and the oppressed (see Minority groups). Supporters of this might encourage universal health care, welfare provision, subsidized education, foreign aid, and Affirmative Action for improving the conditions of the disadvantaged. Stemming from egalitarian values (and what Jesus Himself said), adherents of the Christian left consider it part of their religious duty to take actions on behalf of the oppressed.
The Christian Left holds that social justice, renunciation of power, humility, forgiveness, and private observation of prayer (as opposed to publicly mandated prayer), are mandated by the Gospel (Matthew 6:5-6). The Bible contains accounts of Jesus repeatedly advocating for the poor and outcast over the wealthy, powerful, and religious. The Christian Left maintains that such a stance is relevant and important. Adhering to the standard of "turning the other cheek," which they believe supersedes the Old Testament law of "an eye for an eye," the Christian Left often hearkens towards pacifism in opposition to policies advancing militarism.
Many passages in the Bible illustrate the example set by Jesus regarding violence:
Luke 22: 49-51 When Jesus' followers saw what was going to happen, they said, "Lord, should we strike with our swords?" And one of them struck the servant of the high priest, cutting off his right ear. But Jesus answered, "No more of this!" And he touched the man's ear and healed him.
Luke 9:53-56 And the town did not receive him, because he was headed to Jerusalem. And when his disciples James and John saw this, they said, Lord, wilt thou that we command fire to come down from heaven, and consume them, even as Elisha did? But he turned, and rebuked them, and said, "Ye know not what manner of spirit ye are of." For the Son of man is not come to destroy men's lives, but to save them. And they went to another village.
While non-religious socialists sometimes find support for socialism in the Gospels (for example Mikhail Gorbachev citing Jesus as "the first socialist"), The Christian Left does not find that socialism alone is an adequate end or means. Christian faith is the core of their belief which in turn demands social justice.
The Christian Left sometimes differs from other Christian political groups on issues including homosexuality. This is often not a matter of different religious ideas, but one of focus — viewing the prohibitions against killing, or the criticism of concentrations of wealth, as far more important than social issues emphasized by the religious right, such as opposition to active homosexuality. In this case, similar to philosophies expressed by writers such as C.S. Lewis, these members of the Christian Left believe homosexual sex to be immoral but largely overemphasized when compared with issues relating to social justice, or even matters of sexual morality involving heterosexual sex. [In other words, a sin is a sin, is a sin. We're all sinners. The constant right-wing focus on Homosexuality and Abortion is a focus on nothing but wedge issues.] -- End of Wikipedia content.
The Christian Left doesn't get as "uptight" about the same things as their right-wing Brothers and Sisters. Lefties tend to accept that we're all trapped in the human condition, that we all struggle, and that we're all sinners. They tend to focus on behaviors that Jesus focused on while he was here in body -- things like hypocrisy, organized oppression, exorbitant greed, self-righteousness, judgmentalism, selfishness, abuse of power, violence, etc.
Paul defined the Human Condition well: (Romans 7: 14-25) "We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. For what I do is not the good I want to do; no, the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing. Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it. So I find this law at work: When I want to do good, evil is right there with me. For in my inner being I delight in God's law; but I see another law at work in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within my members. What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death? Thanks be to God—through Jesus Christ our Lord!"
Many Christians live under a deeply ingrained code of written and unwritten expectations and rules that shame them and drain them of spiritual strength. The Christian Left focuses on a message to help people unmask the lies that keep them on a works-righteousness treadmill; a message to help people discover the liberation of the gospel, the grace in Jesus Christ, and the rest that comes from what Christ has done on the cross. Salvation is a free gift. It cannot be earned. Does this mean we can just do whatever we want? Of course not. Because of what Jesus has done for us, we should always do our best to live up to what he asks from us (to follow his commandments).
Here's what Jesus had to say regarding his commandments:
Matthew 22:34-40 Hearing that Jesus had silenced the Sadducees, the Pharisees got together. One of them, an expert in the law, tested him with this question: "Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?" Jesus replied: "'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.' This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments."
Another Christian Lefty, Marilyn Chandler McEntyre, Professor of English at Westmont College, Santa Barbara, California, put it this way in her article "A Voice from the Christian Left."
"Many on the Christian Right are fond of posing the question WWJD?-- What would Jesus do? I'd like to remind them what Jesus DID do: he cared for the poor. He did not condemn the woman caught in adultery. He prayed alone. He commanded us to love our enemies. He preached peace. He ate, drank, and lived with 'tax collectors and sinners' -- the lowlifes and outcasts of his day, while reserving his condemnation for the religious leaders who, from a place of privilege, imposed their legalism and literalism on the people they were responsible for leading. He told his disciples not to oppose the healing work of those outside the ranks of his followers. And again and again he reminded us to care for the poor. (That moral issue gets more air time than any other in the gospels: 1 verse in 9.) If Christians concerned about how to respond to the grave global issues facing us all were to reread the Gospels for guidance, I think we'd find some pretty clear indications there about what Jesus would do ... and what he wouldn't. (One of the few bumper stickers I've been tempted to affix to my still undecorated car in recent months reads 'Who would Jesus bomb?')
Whatever Jesus would do, given what he did do, and has promised he will do, I don't think it looks much like what the insulated, self-congratulatory Fox News fans on the 'Christian Right' are doing." [End of Marilyn Chandler McEntyre Quote]
Based on the Word, The Christian Left believes it's obvious that the primary message of Jesus was Love -- Love for God, and Love for our fellow men and women.
(Matthew 22:37-40) You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind.' This is the great and foremost commandment. And a second is like it, 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' On these two commandments depend the whole Law and the Prophets.
(John 13:34-35) A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another, even as I have loved you, that you also love one another. By this all men will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another.
(Matthew 7:12) Whatever you want others to do for you, do so for them, for this is the Law and the Prophets.
(Luke 6:35) But love your enemies, and do good, and lend, expecting nothing in return; and your reward in heaven will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High; for He Himself is kind to ungrateful and evil men.
(Mark 10:43-45) Whoever wishes to become great among you shall be your servant; and whoever wishes to be first among you shall be slave of all. For even the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve and to give His life a ransom for many.
(John 13:14-15) If I then, the Lord and the Teacher, washed your feet, you also ought to wash one another's feet. For I gave you an example that you also should do as I did to you.
Love God and love people. Forgive people over and over again, as you have been forgiven by God over and over again. Show mercy, as you have been shown mercy by God. Help the weak, the sick, the depressed, the poor, the jailed, the oppressed, for one day you could be weak, sick, depressed, poor, jailed, oppressed. This is what being a Christian is all about.
Finally, The Christian Left doesn't tend to march in lockstep. All of the above statements may not speak for all members of this group. The Christian Left is a spectrum, just as The Christian Right is one.
"It’s easier to bow down and shout constant hallelujahs than to get our own hands dirty by following him [Jesus] out into the world of brokenness and mess." -- Mark Townsend
"Sometimes I would like to ask God why He allows poverty, suffering, and injustice when He could do something about it. But I'm afraid He would ask me the same question." -- Anonymous
-- The Christian Left
Does The Bible Mix Religion and Politics?
Both the Old and New Testaments stress the importance of government for protection and for maintaining order.
In the Bible, kings or other rulers were expected to rule with wisdom and justice. The Old Testament contains story after story of wicked, greedy and oppressive rulers who brought disaster on themselves and their people. Many of the Old Testament prophets, such as Elijah, Elisha and Daniel, delivered their messages of reform to Israel's kings.
Those of us who live under democracy elect our own "rulers." Our votes decide whether our government will be benevolent and just or harsh and oppressive. The Bible's advice and reproaches to the ancient rulers provide us wisdom to help us make wise choices in our own times.
A recurring theme in the Bible is that we should provide equal justice for all, not favoring the rich or powerful. Also, because all the peoples of the world are God's creation, we should not discriminate against foreigners:
He who oppresses the poor reproaches his maker, but he who is gracious to the needy honors Him. (NAS, Proverbs 14:31)
Do not deny justice to your poor people in their lawsuits. Have nothing to do with a false charge and do not put an innocent or honest person to death, for I will not acquit the guilty. Do not accept a bribe, for a bribe blinds those who see and twists the words of the righteous. Do not oppress a foreigner; you yourselves know how it feels to be foreigners, because you were foreigners in Egypt. (TNIV, Exodus 23:6-9)
Woe to those who enact evil statutes, and to those who constantly record unjust decisions, So as to deprive the needy of justice, and rob the poor of My people of their rights, in order that widows may be their spoil, and that they may plunder the orphans. Now what will you do in the day of punishment, and in the devastation which will come from afar? To whom will you flee for help? And where will you leave your wealth? (NAS, Isaiah 10:1-3)
The Bible often speaks of charity as an individual-to-individual act of generosity. The law of Moses and the Hebrews, though, provided an institutional way of providing for the poor that did not depend on the good will of any individual. Not only was individual generosity encouraged, but, as a matter of law, part of everyone's produce or income was to be set aside to aid the poor:
"And you shall sow your land for six years and gather in its yield, but on the seventh year you shall let it rest and lie fallow, so that the needy of your people may eat; and whatever they leave the beast of the field may eat. You are to do the same with your vineyard and your olive grove. (NAS, Exodus 23:10-11)
"When you have finished paying all the tithe of your increase in the third year, the year of tithing, then you shall give it to the Levite, to the stranger, to the orphan and to the widow, that they may eat in your towns, and be satisfied. (NAS, Deuteronomy 26:12)
Let's also recall the celebrated story of Joseph, son of Jacob:
Genesis 41:25-42 And Joseph said unto Pharaoh, "The dreams of Pharaoh are one. God hath shown Pharaoh what He is about to do. The seven good cows are seven years, and the seven good ears are seven years: the dreams are one. And the seven thin and illfavored cows that came up after them are seven years, and the seven empty ears blasted with the east wind shall be seven years of famine. This is the thing which I have spoken unto Pharaoh: what God is about to do He showeth unto Pharaoh. Behold, there come seven years of great plenty throughout all the land of Egypt. And there shall arise after them seven years of famine; and all the plenty shall be forgotten in the land of Egypt, and the famine shall consume the land. And the plenty shall not be known in the land by reason of that famine following, for it shall be very grievous. And for that the dream was repeated unto Pharaoh twice; it is because the thing is established by God, and God will shortly bring it to pass. Now therefore let Pharaoh seek out a man discreet and wise, and set him over the land of Egypt. Let Pharaoh do this, and let him appoint overseers over the land, and take up a fifth part of the land of Egypt in the seven plenteous years. And let them gather all the food of those good years that come, and lay up corn under the hand of Pharaoh, and let them keep food in the cities. And that food shall be for store for the land against the seven years of famine which shall be in the land of Egypt, that the land perish not through the famine." And the counsel was good in the eyes of Pharaoh and in the eyes of all his servants. And Pharaoh said unto his servants, "Can we find such a one as this is, a man in whom the Spirit of God is?" And Pharaoh said unto Joseph, "Inasmuch as God hath shown thee all this, there is none so discreet and wise as thou art. Thou shalt be over my house, and according unto thy word shall all my people be ruled. Only in the throne will I be greater than thou." And Pharaoh said unto Joseph, "See, I have set thee over all the land of Egypt." And Pharaoh took off his ring from his hand and put it upon Joseph's hand, and arrayed him in vestures of fine linen, and put a gold chain about his neck.
In above story of Joseph, "The Government" set aside the bounties of 7 years of plenty to be "redistributed" during 7 years of famine. Enough said?
One doesn't have to dig very deep to learn the spoken sentiments of Jesus related to these matters:
Matthew 25:31-46 "When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on the throne of his glory. All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats, and he will put the sheep at his right hand and the goats at the left. Then the king will say to those at his right hand, 'Come, you that are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world; for I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, I was naked and you gave me clothing, I was sick and you took care of me, I was in prison and you visited me.' Then the righteous will answer him, 'Lord, when was it that we saw you hungry and gave you food, or thirsty and gave you something to drink? And when was it that we saw you a stranger and welcomed you, or naked and gave you clothing? And when was it that we saw you sick or in prison and visited you?' And the king will answer them, 'Truly I tell you, just as you did it to one of the least of these who are members of my family, you did it to me.' Then he will say to those at his left hand, 'You that are accursed, depart from me into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels; for I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not give me clothing, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.' Then they also will answer, 'Lord, when was it that we saw you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not take care of you?' Then he will answer them, 'Truly I tell you, just as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.' And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."
The ancient Hebrews lived in extended families or clans and could generally take care of their own. In modern industrial societies, though, families are often fragmented and many have nowhere to turn except to "The Government," which is really We The People. In Jeremiah 22, when the prophet delivers a scorching sermon about the treatment of workers, aliens and the poor, he specifically addresses both rulers (government) AND individuals.
Jeremiah 22
Judgment Against Evil Kings
1 This is what the LORD says: "Go down to the palace of the king of Judah and proclaim this message there: 2 'Hear the word of the LORD, O king of Judah, you who sit on David's throne—you, your officials and your people who come through these gates. 3 This is what the LORD says: Do what is just and right. Rescue from the hand of his oppressor the one who has been robbed. Do no wrong or violence to the alien, the fatherless or the widow, and do not shed innocent blood in this place. 4 For if you are careful to carry out these commands, then kings who sit on David's throne will come through the gates of this palace, riding in chariots and on horses, accompanied by their officials and their people. 5 But if you do not obey these commands, declares the LORD, I swear by myself that this palace will become a ruin.' " 
13 "Woe to him who builds his palace by unrighteousness, his upper rooms by injustice, making his countrymen work for nothing, not paying them for their labor.
14 He says, 'I will build myself a great palace with spacious upper rooms.' So he makes large windows in it, panels it with cedar and decorates it in red.
15 "Does it make you a king to have more and more cedar? Did not your father have food and drink? He did what was right and just, so all went well with him.
16 He defended the cause of the poor and needy, and so all went well. Is that not what it means to know me?" declares the LORD.
17 "But your eyes and your heart are set only on dishonest gain, on shedding innocent blood and on oppression and extortion."
Everyone, both rich and poor, benefits when a government respects the rights of all and provides for the needy. Crime and drug abuse breed in areas of poverty and unemployment, where people may feel they have nothing to lose. Likewise, apathy and violence breed where people perceive injustice and feel excluded from the benefits of society. To the extent every individual feels empowered as a valuable, productive member of society, then society becomes healthier and more secure for everyone.
Amos 5: 11-12 You trample on the poor and force him to give you grain. Therefore, though you have built stone mansions, you will not live in them; though you have planted lush vineyards, you will not drink their wine. For I know how many are your offenses and how great your sins. You oppress the righteous and take bribes and you deprive the poor of justice in the courts.
Courts? That would be "Government."
Sources:
http://www.twopaths.com/govern.htm
Copyright © by Cliff Leitch
The Christian Bible Reference Site
www.ChristianBibleReference.org
Used by permission.
http://www.biblegateway.com/
Scripture taken from
the HOLY BIBLE, NEW INTERNATIONAL
VERSION®. Copyright © 1973, 1978, 1984 Biblica.
Used by permission of Zondervan.
All rights reserved.
Some Scripture quotations taken from
the New American Standard Bible®, Copyright © 1960, 1962, 1963, 1968, 1971, 1972, 1973,1975, 1977, 1995 by The Lockman Foundation
Used by permission. (www.Lockman.org)
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And the point of this religious "lecture" is...................... ?
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"christian" and "left" are two words that just don't go together.
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Mods -- please cut that back. Copyright infringement. :uhsure:
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And the point of this religious "lecture" is...................... ?
The point would be to tell us we're wrong.
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I started to read and got to this......
We're not about Dogma here. We're just Christians who think the political and Christian right-wing have their priorities wrong.
That is all I will read.. next!
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A couple questions...exactly when did Jesus tell His people to take care of the poor by causing government to take money by threat of imprisonment?
Jesus came to bring salvation to the world, not solve world hunger and poverty. He even told us that we would always have the poor with us, but that we were to take the Good News into all the world. How can the Christian left take the Good News into all the world by voting for heavy taxation and government programs? What is the point to caring for people in this world if they have no eternal future? Is it more loving to vote for government taxation and aid programs, or to send your own money on a mission trip to give someone both aid AND the Good News?
Exactly WHO was it that told the woman caught in sin to "go, and sin no more?" Who was it that said repeatedly that He was here to save sinners? When He said things like this, did He give them money, or tell them how to apply for welfare?
And a statement: True Christians live a life in which we constantly strive to please our Savior by giving of our own money, our own time, our own labor, and we do so not under a burden of rules but with hearts gladden, contented and in peace from the presence of the Holy Spirit...something that the "Christian" left seems to have missed in the Good News. But then again, many of the Christian Left have never actually read the entire Gospel, let alone the Bible, instead depending upon a few verses taken out of context...
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Just so y'all know, this screed is a "cut and paste" job from a FaceBook page that can be found by a Google search of the username.......I would not anticipate any "discussion".......
doc
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Interesting that for all the verses cited none speak to His work of salvation on the cross.
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Interesting that for all the verses cited none speak to His work of salvation on the cross.
Who will rescue me from this body of death? Thanks be to God—through Jesus Christ our Lord!"
Just so y'all know, this screed is a "cut and paste" job from a FaceBook page that can be found by a Google search of the username.......I would not anticipate any "discussion".......
doc
Take or leave it. There's nothing to discuss. If you don't buy it, that's your choice. ;>)
Mods -- please cut that back. Copyright infringement. :uhsure:
All sources used by permission.
And he was wise to tell her to sin no more. Sin brings problems, but we all do it. It's a constant lifelong struggle.
We've read the entire Bible BTW, several times.
Peace.
A couple questions...exactly when did Jesus tell His people to take care of the poor by causing government to take money by threat of imprisonment?
Jesus came to bring salvation to the world, not solve world hunger and poverty. He even told us that we would always have the poor with us, but that we were to take the Good News into all the world. How can the Christian left take the Good News into all the world by voting for heavy taxation and government programs? What is the point to caring for people in this world if they have no eternal future? Is it more loving to vote for government taxation and aid programs, or to send your own money on a mission trip to give someone both aid AND the Good News?
Exactly WHO was it that told the woman caught in sin to "go, and sin no more?" Who was it that said repeatedly that He was here to save sinners? When He said things like this, did He give them money, or tell them how to apply for welfare?
And a statement: True Christians live a life in which we constantly strive to please our Savior by giving of our own money, our own time, our own labor, and we do so not under a burden of rules but with hearts gladden, contented and in peace from the presence of the Holy Spirit...something that the "Christian" left seems to have missed in the Good News. But then again, many of the Christian Left have never actually read the entire Gospel, let alone the Bible, instead depending upon a few verses taken out of context...
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All sources used by permission.
Really? post the permission emails.
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James 2:2-6 (New International Version)
2Suppose a man comes into your meeting wearing a gold ring and fine clothes, and a poor man in shabby clothes also comes in. 3If you show special attention to the man wearing fine clothes and say, "Here's a good seat for you," but say to the poor man, "You stand there" or "Sit on the floor by my feet," 4have you not discriminated among yourselves and become judges with evil thoughts?
5Listen, my dear brothers: Has not God chosen those who are poor in the eyes of the world to be rich in faith and to inherit the kingdom he promised those who love him? 6But you have insulted the poor. Is it not the rich who are exploiting you? Are they not the ones who are dragging you into court?
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Do you accept Jesus death on the cross as paying the price of human sin?
If yes then how can you suggest that this was not the reason for Christ to be made a man.
If no then how do you throw all that part out yet claim a Biblical mandate to your political beliefs?
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Do you accept Jesus death on the cross as paying the price of human sin?
If yes then how can you suggest that this was not the reason for Christ to be made a man.
If no then how do you throw all that part out yet claim a Biblical mandate to your political beliefs?
John 3:16 "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life." ... Price Paid.
We look at what he said and did while he was alive as well. ;>)
Deuteronomy 15:11 There will always be poor people in the land. Therefore I command you to be openhanded toward your brothers and toward the poor and needy in your land.
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Take or leave it. There's nothing to discuss. If you don't buy it, that's your choice. ;>)
Hmm... Last I checked, this was a DISCUSSION board.
That's a pretty neat position for a n00b to take.
:bs:
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Mark 12:38-40 As he taught, Jesus said, "Watch out for the teachers of the law. They like to walk around in flowing robes and be greeted in the marketplaces, and have the most important seats in the synagogues and the places of honor at banquets. They devour widows' houses and for a show make lengthy prayers. Such men will be punished most severely."
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Mark 12:38-40 As he taught, Jesus said, "Watch out for the teachers of the law. They like to walk around in flowing robes and be greeted in the marketplaces, and have the most important seats in the synagogues and the places of honor at banquets. They devour widows' houses and for a show make lengthy prayers. Such men will be punished most severely."
Well for the last 2,000 years this teaching in Christianity has been completely IGNORED.
Why I ask--Stupid question I know.
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John 3:16 "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life." ... Price Paid.
We look at what he said and did while he was alive as well. ;>)
Deuteronomy 15:11 There will always be poor people in the land. Therefore I command you to be openhanded toward your brothers and toward the poor and needy in your land.
Exactly. Nowhere did He say, "I command you to get your government to take money from those that work or earn more, and give a portion of that tax money to the poor." He commanded YOU and me to give OUR money to the needy. Social-justice "Christians" that believe in the government should be in charge of charity are NOT following Christ's word, they're political socialists using Christ to make their gluttony look good to the world.
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Exactly. Nowhere did He say, "I command you to get your government to take money from those that work or earn more, and give a portion of that tax money to the poor." He commanded YOU and me to give OUR money to the needy. Social-justice "Christians" that believe in the government should be in charge of charity are NOT following Christ's word, they're political socialists using Christ to make their gluttony look good to the world.
You didn't read the initial post in this thread (the long one). If you did, you ignored it. That's OK. We know that's what many do. They ignore most of the Bible.
Peace Out
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You didn't read the initial post in this thread (the long one). If you did, you ignored it. That's OK. We know that's what many do. They ignore most of the Bible.
Peace Out
Great reply. :rotf: :rotf: :rotf:
I suppose I should give you a break, though...leftists are normally far to fond of their own money to give it away. This is why they're so much in favor of taxing it away from "The Rich." It's so much easier to be charitable with someone else's money.
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We don't agree with everything in this PDF, but we agree with most of it.
We don't send anyone "to hell." We're not qualified to make that judgment. Only God is.
If you want to step out of your own views for a moment, and evaluate another view (something we should all do from time to time), read this. And BTW, we're not "Marxist" at all. ;>)
http://www.esa-online.org/Images/mmDocument/Speeches%20&%20Sermons/Are%20Evangelicals%20Going%20to%20Hell.pdf
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We don't agree with everything in this PDF, but we agree with most of it.
We don't send anyone "to hell." We're not qualified to make that judgment. Only God is.
If you want to step out of your own views for a moment, and evaluate another view (something we should all do from time to time), read this. And BTW, we're not "Marxist" at all. ;>)
http://www.esa-online.org/Images/mmDocument/Speeches%20&%20Sermons/Are%20Evangelicals%20Going%20to%20Hell.pdf
So, you're fine with having the government steal money from others to do your charity work. OK. But you did manage to get far enough in the Bible to figure out that we don't send people to Hell...but I guess you've sort of missed the fact that God doesn't, either...He merely gives us the free will to choose to go there instead of choosing Him. So you really are qualified to make that judgment...for yourself. :-)
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"He merely gives us the free will to choose to go there instead of choosing Him. So you really are qualified to make that judgment...for yourself."
Well said. We agree with this part.
Like we said, read the original post, which you either haven't done or ignored.
Read the PDF too.
We're not going to play one-upmanship games. Take it or leave it. ;>)
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You didn't read the initial post in this thread (the long one). If you did, you ignored it. That's OK. We know that's what many do. They ignore most of the Bible.
Peace Out
Given what the Bible clearly states regarding homosexuality...
Romans 1:26-27 (New International Version)
26 Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. 27 In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion.
it would seem the "christian" left does plenty of ignoring on their own.
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"He merely gives us the free will to choose to go there instead of choosing Him. So you really are qualified to make that judgment...for yourself."
Well said. We agree with this part.
Like we said, read the original post, which you either haven't done or ignored.
Read the PDF too.
We're not going to play one-upmanship games. Take it or leave it. ;>)
So, you are OK with the government stealing money to do your charity work, and you're not going to discuss it. It seems strange that you come to a discussion board with your warped theology. It also seems strange that a self-proclaimed "Christian" would call theological discussions a "game." I guess that open-minded thing only goes one way, huh? :lmao:
Actually, it seems that we have an accurate view of the Christian left...no misconceptions at all.
The misconceptions all seem to come when the left "reads" the Bible...and when the left believes they understand conservatives. :-)
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"He merely gives us the free will to choose to go there instead of choosing Him. So you really are qualified to make that judgment...for yourself."
Well said. We agree with this part.
Like we said, read the original post, which you either haven't done or ignored.
Read the PDF too.
We're not going to play one-upmanship games. Take it or leave it. ;>)
Who exactly is "WE".......(bolded above) Whom do you porport to speak for?
Just for the record, it is customary for new members to post an introduction to the membership in the "Welcomes and Introductions" forum, to allow the existing posters to get to know something about you, prior to launching into a abysmally long copied dissertation in another forum. You origionally posted this in "Politics" which was inappropriate, and it was moved here by a member of the staff.
You, therefore, rather got off on the "wrong foot" so to speak..........
You were asked specific questions here:
And the point of this religious "lecture" is...................... ?
And here:
Given what the Bible clearly states regarding homosexuality...
Romans 1:26-27 (New International Version)
26 Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. 27 In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion.
it would seem the "christian" left does plenty of ignoring on their own.
And here:
Exactly WHO was it that told the woman caught in sin to "go, and sin no more?" Who was it that said repeatedly that He was here to save sinners? When He said things like this, did He give them money, or tell them how to apply for welfare?
And here:
So, you are OK with the government stealing money to do your charity work, and you're not going to discuss it. It seems strange that you come to a discussion board with your warped theology. It also seems strange that a self-proclaimed "Christian" would call theological discussions a "game." I guess that open-minded thing only goes one way, huh?
And again here:
So, you're fine with having the government steal money from others to do your charity work. OK. But you did manage to get far enough in the Bible to figure out that we don't send people to Hell...but I guess you've sort of missed the fact that God doesn't, either...He merely gives us the free will to choose to go there instead of choosing Him. So you really are qualified to make that judgment...for yourself
To which you respond with this..........
Read the PDF too.
We're not going to play one-upmanship games. Take it or leave it.
You therefore "support" your position by posting another screed (in PDF foremat no less) as a defense of your initial "cut and paste" job, and expect the membership to take you seriously?
It doesn't work that way here.......you are free to post your opinions, however, you will be expected to personally defend them......"Take it or leave it" (posted twice by you) is veering you dangerously close to what we refer to as "religious trolling", and a violation of the board rules. As moderator here, you can consider this your first and only warning.......either defend your position, answer the questions, or take your "Misconceptions" somewhere else.......
The forum and board rules are your friend, read tham and use them wisely.......I hope that I've made that clear enough for you to understand.
BTW, welcome to CC, enjoy your stay........
doc
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You therefore "support" your position by posting another screed (in PDF foremat no less) as a defense of your initial "cut and paste" job, and expect the membership to take you seriously?
It doesn't work that way here.......you are free to post your opinions, however, you will be expected to personally defend them......"Take it or leave it" (posted twice by you) is veering you dangerously close to what we refer to as "religious trolling", and a violation of the board rules. As moderator here, you can consider this your first and only warning.......either defend your position, answer the questions, or take your "Misconceptions" somewhere else.......
The forum and board rules are your friend, read tham and use them wisely.......I hope that I've made that clear enough for you to understand.
BTW, welcome to CC, enjoy your stay........
doc
Good work, doc, although I would've just told the sanctimonious little prick to go **** himself.
I'm sure Jesus loves him. Everyone else here thinks he's an asshole.
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And the point of this religious "lecture" is...................... ?
Our religion is better than your religion /DU
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You didn't read the initial post in this thread (the long one). If you did, you ignored it. That's OK. We know that's what many do. They ignore most of the Bible.
Peace Out
Wow. Arrogant much? You obviously know Bible passages but you don't understand them.
That passage it saying that you should do things out of your own heart and the kindness of your spirit...not because you've had a gun put to your head by the Federal government.
You're using bible passages to justify Socialism...which in itself is a Godless religion free political theory.
Which just tells me you have ZERO comprehension of the teaching beyond how you can use them politically.
Which is pathetic.
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Good work, doc, although I would've just told the sanctimonious little prick to go **** himself.
I'm sure Jesus loves him. Everyone else here thinks he's an asshole.
So typical of your kind. This is exactly why it's pointless to debate or discuss anything with right-wingers.
Later
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So typical of your kind. This is exactly why it's pointless to debate or discuss anything with right-wingers.
Later
I'm smelling a fals prophet here. A slimy Liberal troll trying to hide behind the Bible to justify Governmental thievery.
Hey troll what does the bible say about false prophets?
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So typical of your kind. This is exactly why it's pointless to debate or discuss anything with right-wingers.
Later
Come back when you can actually discuss things...until then riddance.
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So typical of your kind. This is exactly why it's pointless to debate or discuss anything with right-wingers.
Later
So far I haven't seen you debate or discuss anything.......just throw up verbal wallpaper, and expect us to swallow it.......
I'm going to ask one more time.......answer the questions that have been posed to you......
doc
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So typical of your kind. This is exactly why it's pointless to debate or discuss anything with right-wingers.
Later
What's that??? Passing judgments are we???
Not only are you a sanctimonious little prick, you're quite the hypocrite too.
Go sniff a bus seat, asshole. :loser:
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So typical of your kind. This is exactly why it's pointless to debate or discuss anything with right-wingers.
Later
Ha Ha....you lost. :lmao:
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Amazing how this troll comes here...talks down to us...acts all arrogant and stuff...yet would be banned on it's own webpage for the same kind of behavior.
How "tolerant".
:whatever:
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Hey t_c_l...if you're gonna hang out here...at least have the guts to sign back in...quit just lurking as a guest and watching.
Whats the matter...afraid to engage people in debate?
Would you prefer we all just STFU and accept your garbage posing as religious "thought"?
What are you scare of?
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So typical of your kind. This is exactly why it's pointless to debate or discuss anything with right-wingers.
Later
It's pointless to preach at right-wingers, especially when you can't support your opinion. You never tried either debating or discussing anything. Your words:
Take it or leave it. ;>)
I'll "leave it," and stick with the entire Bible instead of your cherry-picked selections. Let us know if you ever bother learning enough to be able to hold your end up in a discussion. :owned:
Oh, but, Thanks for stopping by and confirming that we have no misconceptions about the left, Christian or otherwise. :-)
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Whats the matter...afraid to engage people in debate?
Rhetorical question, right? :-)
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How does the Christian Left feel about abortion? Did I miss that in one his ultra long C&P posts? I don't see how anyone can claim to be Christian and pro-abortion. Murdering the innocent unborn children, in my view is one of the most heinous of sins.
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I started to read and got to this...... That is all I will read.. next!
The same spot where I stopped reading too.
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I sent the little troll packing. What a f'n hypocrite.
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I know this is a dead topic, but I would like to make one more point...the OP was full of lies and half truths. For instance, the line that 1 of 9 verses deals with the poor. I don't have any idea which 9 verses they cherry-picked to get that statistic, but I do know that the majority of time, when Jesus mentioned the poor, He said, "the poor have the gospel preached to them," or "Blessed [are] the poor in spirit." Sorry, but I just can't stand lies.
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So typical of your kind. This is exactly why it's pointless to debate or discuss anything with right-wingers.
Later
meh
Already sent away.
This is a load of hypocritical bullshit.
He says it's pointless to debate but he refuses to answer questions he only points you towards these massive lectures and tells you to take it or leave, just don't ask for clarification or post counter-arguments.
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I just now bumped into this: I dissected the christian left on my blog in 2009.
I repeat the whole thing here. No need to hit the blog and scroll back a year.
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Liberalism ruins everything it touches. The auto-bailout did not save the industry. No, it ensured that the great American institutions went bankrupt just a few months later. The great liberal trillion-dollar stimulus did absolutely nothing to help the economy. It’s the same when you mix liberalism with religion. Such a marriage does NOT result in enlightenment, but rather the abandonment of faith in order to worship its new God: the Liberal political agenda.
The intolerance of liberalism allows for no competition. Liberals are the first to clamp down on free speech that does not agree with them. The free exercise of religion is tolerated only when liberals control everything that is said. Conservative Christians, Fundamentalists (Christians who believe that the Bible is the Word of God) are feared and despised by the left. Liberals believe in so much that goes against the grain of the church that the two doctrines cannot coexist.
As a consequence, the liberal church must exalt the liberal agenda in place of the Word of God. The murder of babies, the gay agenda, sexual perversions and immorality, every darkness that liberals embrace must take precedence over the Word of God.
So how can the Christian Left accommodate two such opposing doctrines? It doesn’t. The Christian Left and the Emergent church abandons the Word, and denies Jesus in favor of its new God, Liberalism. Any conversation with Liberal worshipers will reveal this. To them, nothing in the Bible is trustworthy, its all fables or the original meaning has been lost in time.
(Fact: the Word of God IS true. It has been preserved by Divine providence. All documents and translation we have today match exactly-word for word what existed in historical texts. For reference I post the book: Evidence That Demands a Verdict, by Josh McDowell.)
Back to the topic. The Emergent church and the Liberals must by necessity discount the Word of God because it conflicts with their earthly man-made doctrine. The Emergents reduce God to a simple force of love, with no concern over such trivial things as sin. They deny Jesus when He says:
John 14:6 Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me.
Through this verse and others Jesus makes the claim that there is NO salvation apart from Him.
--- The Christian Left/Emergent Church turn must their backs on Jesus in order to be all-inclusive. To them, all paths lead to God. In order to embrace the Liberal agenda, they must utterly reject the Word of God.
I spoke to an emergent about this.
I asked, “Do you believe that God is powerful enough to ensure the Word He revealed stays pure?â€
The Emergent explained. “Yes, I believe He is powerful enough. But God chooses not to.â€
And he knows this…How? Certainly the left has no divine revelation that this is so.
The question is, “Why would such an uncaring God send His only Son to die for us?â€
And if all paths lead to heaven, was the sacrifice of Christ even necessary?
The Emergents have no answer for their heresy. Liberal doctrine doesn’t allow for such deep thought.
The denial of Christ and the rejection of the Bible leaves the Liberal church an empty, morally vacuous place. They don’t even believe in sin. Deny the light of truth, and every evil will creep in with the darkness.
Isaiah 29:13 The Lord says: "These people come near to me with their mouth and honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me. Their worship of me is made up only of rules taught by men.
The Bottom Line:The Emergent Church and the Christian Left are simply NOT Christian. They are a cult that worships a political agenda. The Jesus they present is False. They embrace the murder of babies, the perversion of homosexuality, and the doctrines of demons. They hold the Bible, sing the old tunes, play at church, but they are wolves in sheep’s clothing. Nothing good will come from this perversion of faith.
Galatians 1:6-9 "I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you by the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel— which is really no gospel at all. Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ. But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned! As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let him be eternally condemned!
Rev 3: 14-16
"To the angel of the church in Laodicea write: The Amen, the faithful and true Witness, the Beginning of the creation of God, says this:
I know your deeds, that you are neither cold nor hot; I wish that you were cold or hot.
So because you are lukewarm, and neither hot nor cold, I will spit you out of My mouth.
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There's no such thing as "liberal Christianity" and "conservative Christianity." You can't find it anywhere in the scriptures. One is either obedient to Jesus Christ and a follower of His, or they aren't. Those that are obedient are Christains, and those who don't are not. That's it. No liberal or conservative or any other label involved.
In keeping with the topic of "liberal Christian," I agree with Mr Mann that those who refer to themselves as such are "a cult that worships a political agenda." I would say the same thing about any group who allow their political beliefs to supercede what the scriptures teach rather than allowing what the scriptures teach influence how they may view certain political topics of the day.
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