The Conservative Cave
Current Events => The DUmpster => Topic started by: Revolution on August 08, 2010, 11:12:22 PM
-
defendandprotect (1000+ posts) Sat Aug-07-10 07:37 PM
Original message
Resolved: Eating Animals Is Indefensible
Resolved: Eating Animals Is Indefensible
Bruce Friedrich.Vice President, Policy
Posted: August 5, 2010 11:25 AM
EXCERPTS --
The topic is a hot one on college campuses, and the teams that have accepted have been rewarded by what they have consistently told us to be their largest event audiences ever. You can watch many of the debates online, if you're so inclined, but here is the crux of my argument:
Cruelty to animals is where I focus in these debates, because it's the issue that is most obvious: We are a nation of animal lovers -- according to a Gallup Poll last May, fully 97 percent of us support laws to protect animals from abuse -- and yet the animals with whom we come into contact most frequently are the animals we pay other people to abuse and kill for us.
Second, if we're eating meat, we are paying people to abuse animals in myriad ways that would violate anti-cruelty laws if these were dogs or cats rather than chickens and pigs. Animals are deprived of everything that is natural and important to them; they never breathe fresh air, raise their young, develop normal relationships with other animals, explore their surroundings, or do anything else they would do in nature. Artificial breeding practices are used so that animals will grow far more quickly than they would naturally, and their organs and limbs simply can't keep up. For example, chickens' upper bodies grow seven times as quickly as they did just 30 years ago, so these factory-farmed animals who live for fewer than two months (they're still chirping like infants when they're sent to slaughter) suffer from lung collapse, heart failure, and crippling leg deformities.
Similarly hideous conditions exist for all animals raised for food; rather than further detailing the horrid details, I will ask that you if you eat meat, you watch "Meet Your Meat," which is narrated by Alec Baldwin, and "Glass Walls," which is narrated by Sir Paul McCartney -- I generally show the opening two minutes of Meet Your Meat as a part of my 10 minute opening statement in college debates. Both videos offer a gruesome window into what we're supporting if we choose to eat chickens, pigs and other farmed animals. If we eat meat, we should at least ensure that we know what we're paying for.
Put another way: If we believe that people should try to protect the environment, OR we believe that we should try not to cause people to starve OR we oppose cruelty to animals, the only ethical diet is a vegetarian one.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/bruce-friedrich/resolved-...
You can watch some of the debates here . . .
http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=%22bruce+fr...
.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x8899693
:thatsright: Oh my...Oh me oh my!
-
(http://a.imageshack.us/img508/4452/pyramidg.png)
-
Friday I invited a contractor (temp worker) to go fishing with family and I. She was going to be stuck in town for the day. She accepted then told me she was a vegetarian. I warned her we wouldn't be releasing anything caught, and I would cook them. Still wanted to come along. She caught three and decided it would be disrespectful to the fish to not eat them. So she did.
Must be the mountain air, or maybe the water. I dunno.
Animal rights crap makes me sick. I am caring toward my cows. And I don't take hunting or fishing lightly. I always make a good shot and never take a chance if the set up is iffy.
-
Friday I invited a contractor (temp worker) to go fishing with family and I. She was going to be stuck in town for the day. She accepted then told me she was a vegetarian. I warned her we wouldn't be releasing anything caught, and I would cook them. Still wanted to come along. She caught three and decided it would be disrespectful to the fish to not eat them. So she did.
Must be the mountain air, or maybe the water. I dunno.
Animal rights crap makes me sick. I am caring toward my cows. And I don't take hunting or fishing lightly. I always make a good shot and never take a chance if the set up is iffy.
I happen to be a card-carrying member of PETA:
People
Eating
Tasty
Animals
I believe that man didn't evolve to the top of the food chain just to eat salads, that "vegetarian" is another word for "bad hunter", and if God didn't want us to eat animals, he wouldn't have made them out of meat. :-)
-
Friday I invited a contractor (temp worker) to go fishing with family and I. She was going to be stuck in town for the day. She accepted then told me she was a vegetarian. I warned her we wouldn't be releasing anything caught, and I would cook them. Still wanted to come along. She caught three and decided it would be disrespectful to the fish to not eat them. So she did.
Must be the mountain air, or maybe the water. I dunno.
Animal rights crap makes me sick. I am caring toward my cows. And I don't take hunting or fishing lightly. I always make a good shot and never take a chance if the set up is iffy.
Yep. These people a ridiculous. Was it indefensible when we'd round up an entire herd of deer/buffallo/mammoth and forcibly drive them off a cliff? Young and all? Of course not. It's how we existed. Dennis Leary said it best IMO. "Not eating meat is a decision. Eating meat is an instinct." He's dead right, and **** those hippies who tell me otherwise.
-
Next time I run into one of those self-righteous, holier-than-thou vegan types, I think I'll just make them watch this clip a few hundred times:
[youtube=425,350]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gRTIkj5HF90[/youtube]
-
More for me.
-
Resolved: Eating Animals is Delicious.
:-)
**** you pushy vagitarians.
My girlfriends sister is a vegetarian, but she's not pushy about it. You can eat meat in front of her and she doesn't care nor give you some big sermon about how you're a murderer. Big difference there.
-
(http://www.seriouseats.com/images/20090416-foodchain.jpg)
-
(http://www.seriouseats.com/images/20090416-foodchain.jpg)
Not so sure I'd eat some of those things on that, HFB . . . unless I'd want bats in my belfrey . . . :tongue:
-
So they would deprive humane, organic, free range envirowacko farmers of their livelihood just so they can feel self-righteous. And a good number of eggs not eaten would go to waste. If one were to let every single egg layed to be sat on, not only would there be an unsustainable amount of chickens (half of which would be roosters) and the world would be full of rotten, smelly eggs from the ones that weren't fertilized and spend their life under a very warm hen, getting "ripe" rather quickly. What about those poor meat birds? They grow so large so fast (I even let mine free range...or free waddle as the case may be and they still grow at a rapid pace) their legs can't support their weight. Think how cruel it is to allow them to live in pain with broken or sprained limbs because some stupid hippie wants to stroke his/her ego thinking they're saving the planet and Gaia's precious creatures.
Cindie
-
(http://a.imageshack.us/img508/4452/pyramidg.png)
THIS IS EPIC!!! Love it. :hi5:
I like how the DUmmies try to throw global warming in there as well. Get over it,....IT DOESN'T EXIST YOU DUMMIES!!! :censored:
-
Cruelty to animals? Gimme a frikkin' break! My cows live like kings and queens around here! They get over 100 acres of some of the finest pasture and forest any animal could ask for! A 5 acre pond in order to cool off and have a cool drink, plus 5 lbs of grain/day! They hate me so much for my cruelty, that all I have to do is whistle and they come a runnin' to give me slobbery kisses!
Then after they get a enough weight on 'em, I grain 'em solid for 100 days with some of the finest grain mix they could ever hope to chow down on! They then get sent to a butcher that ends their life with shotgun slug right between the eyes so they never even know what happened! The only thing they could possibly remember before the lights go out is what a great life they have led in bovine heaven!
I then praise them for the entire next year for bein' the tastiest beef ever to exist on the planet!
What more could they ask for?
-
defendandprotect (1000+ posts) Sat Aug-07-10 07:37 PM
Original message
Resolved: Eating Animals Is Indefensible
Resolved: Eating Animals Is Indefensible
Bruce Friedrich.Vice President, Policy
Posted: August 5, 2010 11:25 AM
*MY* ancestors, tens of thousands of years ago, were hunting AND eating animals long before your ancestors were reproducing by bearing flipper-babies let along walking upright.
*I* am at the top of the food chain for a reason. When you grow an opposing thumb, get back with me and I'll `splain it to you.
-
Cruelty to animals? Gimme a frikkin' break! My cows live like kings and queens around here! They get over 100 acres of some of the finest pasture and forest any animal could ask for! A 5 acre pond in order to cool off and have a cool drink, plus 5 lbs of grain/day! They hate me so much for my cruelty, that all I have to do is whistle and they come a runnin' to give me slobbery kisses!
Then after they get a enough weight on 'em, I grain 'em solid for 100 days with some of the finest grain mix they could ever hope to chow down on! They then get sent to a butcher that ends their life with shotgun slug right between the eyes so they never even know what happened! The only thing they could possibly remember before the lights go out is what a great life they have led in bovine heaven!
I then praise them for the entire next year for bein' the tastiest beef ever to exist on the planet!
What more could they ask for?
Have you told them about the 72 cow virgins they receive in cow heaven for being a tasty steak? :-)
-
Have you told them about the 72 cow virgins they receive in cow heaven for being a tasty steak? :-)
Naw, after the bull has taught them the nasty, there ain't no virgins and the steers wouldn't know what to do with 'em anyway!
-
Cruelty to animals is where I focus in these debates, because it's the issue that is most obvious: We are a nation of animal lovers -- according to a Gallup Poll last May, fully 97 percent of us support laws to protect animals from abuse -- and yet the animals with whom we come into contact most frequently are the animals we pay other people to abuse and kill for us.
Second, if we're eating meat, we are paying people to abuse animals in myriad ways that would violate anti-cruelty laws if these were dogs or cats rather than chickens and pigs.
This guy makes a valid point here! There is actually one small creature that we allow to be torn limb-from-limb in some of the most extreme cruelty imagined, truly horrific torture. If that happened to a dog or cat, it would certainly be illegal...but as it stands, the persons performing this cruelty not only make huge profits, they even receive taxpayer money in one form or another! "Rather than further detailing the horrid details," I would direct all those interested to the video on this site. (http://www.silentscream.org/)
-
This guy makes a valid point here! There is actually one small creature that we allow to be torn limb-from-limb in some of the most extreme cruelty imagined, truly horrific torture. If that happened to a dog or cat, it would certainly be illegal...but as it stands, the persons performing this cruelty not only make huge profits, they even receive taxpayer money in one form or another! "Rather than further detailing the horrid details," I would direct all those interested to the video on this site. (http://www.silentscream.org/)
Good Point!
But, of course you know, "it's" not actually a creature until it takes a breath, right?
Frikkin' scum of humanity these people are!
-
Good Point!
But, of course you know, "it's" not actually a creature until it takes a breath, right?
Frikkin' scum of humanity these people are!
Yeah...try that same thing on a pregnant cow and see how PETA reacts. Or just mention "veal" to one of them... :banghead:
-
This guy makes a valid point here! There is actually one small creature that we allow to be torn limb-from-limb in some of the most extreme cruelty imagined, truly horrific torture. If that happened to a dog or cat, it would certainly be illegal...but as it stands, the persons performing this cruelty not only make huge profits, they even receive taxpayer money in one form or another! "Rather than further detailing the horrid details," I would direct all those interested to the video on this site. (http://www.silentscream.org/)
I didn't even have to click on the link. Great point. :hi5:
-
I just watched my cat torture, kill and eat a mouse. Guess I should send her to GITMO rather than patting her on her head.
I could do without the mouse farts though. She looks at me when she does it like I did it. :lmao:
-
I just watched my cat torture, kill and eat a mouse. Guess I should send her to GITMO rather than patting her on her head.
I could do without the mouse farts though. She looks at me when she does it like I did it. :lmao:
Before we got Oreo, she used to decapitate a small rodent every night and leave it on my sister's back porch. We don't let her out now that we have her, but she'd be Hell on the chipmunk and squirrel population here. She did size up a Canada goose once, then she got on ground level . . . :o
-
Before we got Oreo, she used to decapitate a small rodent every night and leave it on my sister's back porch. We don't let her out now that we have her, but she'd be Hell on the chipmunk and squirrel population here. She did size up a Canada goose once, then she got on ground level . . . :o
We had a barn cat that was hell on mice. She moved in and we never saw a mouse again even with one of my mares that seemed to like to share her grain. But she liked to chase the chickens. Never tried to kill one just liked to chase them. She was still pretty young at that point and getting the hang of this barn cat thing.
Well one day she chased a few hens around the corner of the barn and a split second later she came hauling furry butt back around the corner with 2 of the white geese hot on her tail.
She would leave the area if a chicken walked in after that.
-
I don't think eating meat is cruel. However, there are some cruel places out there for animals. I try my best to buy from local farmers. Even though the end result is death for the animal, they don't have to live a cruel life before that time comes. Know what you are buying.
-
*MY* ancestors, tens of thousands of years ago, were hunting AND eating animals long before your ancestors were reproducing by bearing flipper-babies let along walking upright.
*I* am at the top of the food chain for a reason. When you grow an opposing thumb, get back with me and I'll `splain it to you.
BINGO!!! God, (religious or not), created MAN to be on top of the food chain for a reason! :hi5:
-
I don't think eating meat is cruel. However, there are some cruel places out there for animals. I try my best to buy from local farmers. Even though the end result is death for the animal, they don't have to live a cruel life before that time comes. Know what you are buying.
Give me a freaking break here, if mankind was developed to just eat vegetables and grains, we would all have teeth like cows and sheep.
Why is it PETA is not denouncing the animals of the world that eat meat, dogs, cats and birds.------Worms are meat and crows swoop in on road kill, Buzzards and sea gulls also.
Our human body's are made to eat most anything for survival, the very reason we have Canine teeth to shred meat and molars to crunch grains and nuts.
These PETA people remind me of the Flat Earth Society.
-
Without meat we would never have dropped outa the trees or walked upright! It takes protein to develop the brain, not lettuce!
-
Give me a freaking break here, if mankind was developed to just eat vegetables and grains, we would all have teeth like cows and sheep.
Why is it PETA is not denouncing the animals of the world that eat meat, dogs, cats and birds.------Worms are meat and crows swoop in on road kill, Buzzards and sea gulls also.
Our human body's are made to eat most anything for survival, the very reason we have Canine teeth to shred meat and molars to crunch grains and nuts.
These PETA people remind me of the Flat Earth Society.
The founder of PETA has an interesting view of animals...she truly believes that animals are completely equal to humans. They should all be set free to choose their own lives, just as humans are. (never mind the fact that most of them will starve, be hit by a car, or be eaten by a bigger critter in short order.)
She also believes that an animal life is worth exactly as much as a human life...therefore, it is just as permissible for a pig to kill and eat a human boy as for that boy to eat pork.
-
The founder of PETA has an interesting view of animals...she truly believes that animals are completely equal to humans. They should all be set free to choose their own lives, just as humans are. (never mind the fact that most of them will starve, be hit by a car, or be eaten by a bigger critter in short order.)
She also believes that an animal life is worth exactly as much as a human life...therefore, it is just as permissible for a pig to kill and eat a human boy as for that boy to eat pork.
Now there's a real loony tune!
-
Naw, after the bull has taught them the nasty, there ain't no virgins and the steers wouldn't know what to do with 'em anyway!
Man...bulls, steers, cows...being an Idaho city boy, I don't understand any of it - it's all just hamburger to me. Of course, I never spent "barn-time" with a cow...down on the ranch...alone...on a cold winter night...looking over my shoulder... :-) :bolt:
-
Give me a freaking break here, if mankind was developed to just eat vegetables and grains, we would all have teeth like cows and sheep.
Why is it PETA is not denouncing the animals of the world that eat meat, dogs, cats and birds.------Worms are meat and crows swoop in on road kill, Buzzards and sea gulls also.
Our human body's are made to eat most anything for survival, the very reason we have Canine teeth to shred meat and molars to crunch grains and nuts.
These PETA people remind me of the Flat Earth Society.
Um, since I don't speak for PETA nor am I a member, I can't answer that. However, I stand by what I wrote. Did you read it?
-
This guy makes a valid point here! There is actually one small creature that we allow to be torn limb-from-limb in some of the most extreme cruelty imagined, truly horrific torture. If that happened to a dog or cat, it would certainly be illegal...but as it stands, the persons performing this cruelty not only make huge profits, they even receive taxpayer money in one form or another! "Rather than further detailing the horrid details," I would direct all those interested to the video on this site. (http://www.silentscream.org/)
I cannot EVEN go there - not now. If I did, I would be banned from here...the things I would say.
Thank you!
-
I just watched my cat torture, kill and eat a mouse. Guess I should send her to GITMO rather than patting her on her head.
I could do without the mouse farts though. She looks at me when she does it like I did it. :lmao:
Yea - that is what you tell the good company when they are visiting - the cat farted, not me! :-)
-
Man...bulls, steers, cows...being an Idaho city boy, I don't understand any of it - it's all just hamburger to me. Of course, I never spent "barn-time" with a cow...down on the ranch...alone...on a cold winter night...looking over my shoulder... :-) :bolt:
Heh, heh! With my bull it would be a good idea to keep lookin' over yer shoulder! He's a Bison/Angus cross!
-
Heh, heh! With my bull it would be a good idea to keep lookin' over yer shoulder! He's a Bison/Angus cross!
To each his own - Huckleberry... :-) :fuelfire:
-
So they would deprive humane, organic, free range envirowacko farmers of their livelihood just so they can feel self-righteous. And a good number of eggs not eaten would go to waste. If one were to let every single egg layed to be sat on, not only would there be an unsustainable amount of chickens (half of which would be roosters) and the world would be full of rotten, smelly eggs from the ones that weren't fertilized and spend their life under a very warm hen, getting "ripe" rather quickly. What about those poor meat birds? They grow so large so fast (I even let mine free range...or free waddle as the case may be and they still grow at a rapid pace) their legs can't support their weight. Think how cruel it is to allow them to live in pain with broken or sprained limbs because some stupid hippie wants to stroke his/her ego thinking they're saving the planet and Gaia's precious creatures.
Cindie
It's been my argument for years against PETA that IF their warped view of animals' rights were carried to the extent they profess, ALL domestic farm animals as we know them would become extinct. They need us for their survival as much as we need them for food and clothing.
-
Give me a freaking break here, if mankind was developed to just eat vegetables and grains, we would all have teeth like cows and sheep.
Why is it PETA is not denouncing the animals of the world that eat meat, dogs, cats and birds.------Worms are meat and crows swoop in on road kill, Buzzards and sea gulls also.
Our human body's are made to eat most anything for survival, the very reason we have Canine teeth to shred meat and molars to crunch grains and nuts.
These PETA people remind me of the Flat Earth Society.
I listen to a syndicated morning radio show out of Charlotte, NC, and one of the cast members professed this:
He said he bought a bag of Krystal burgers, sat down on the sidewalk in front of PETA HQ in Norfork, and started eating them and handing them out to people just passing by. This fellow is not small, he's over 6 feet tall and almost 400 pounds, and when the PETA folks came outside and told him he'd have to leave, he told them, "Move me!" They left him alone the rest of the day. :rotf:
-
I don't think eating meat is cruel. However, there are some cruel places out there for animals. I try my best to buy from local farmers. Even though the end result is death for the animal, they don't have to live a cruel life before that time comes. Know what you are buying.
I try to do the same thing. I don't see that there is any reason to treat the animals cruelly.
-
Heh, heh! With my bull it would be a good idea to keep lookin' over yer shoulder! He's a Bison/Angus cross!
P.S.
I love ya man...!!!111
-
Dead cow...cooked over hickory coals....hmmmmm good.
Dead chicken/turkey.....deep fried in dead hog lard.....hmmmmm good.
Dead hog....cooked any kindda way.....hmmmmm good.
To the guys at PETA.....eat mo' PETA
To the wymins at PETA.....lick mo' fish
Leave the meat eating to professionals.
-
Before we got Oreo, she used to decapitate a small rodent every night and leave it on my sister's back porch. We don't let her out now that we have her, but she'd be Hell on the chipmunk and squirrel population here. She did size up a Canada goose once, then she got on ground level . . . :o
My Oreo chased everything. She can't do that much now cause of her failing eyesight :( but she would bark and chase everything at my old place where we had a big backyard. Even got a rabbit once before I knew what she'd done.
-
Heh, heh! With my bull it would be a good idea to keep lookin' over yer shoulder! He's a Bison/Angus cross!
Big question here, what does the meat from such a cross become.?
Is it marbled with fat as the Angus or very lean as the Bison.
Is the bull sterile, if not what do you breed him with, another BIGUS.?
-
Big question here, what does the meat from such a cross become.?
Is it marbled with fat as the Angus or very lean as the Bison.
Is the bull sterile, if not what do you breed him with, another BIGUS.?
Yeah....Michelle Obama....another BIGUS.
-
I listen to a syndicated morning radio show out of Charlotte, NC, and one of the cast members professed this:
He said he bought a bag of Krystal burgers, sat down on the sidewalk in front of PETA HQ in Norfork, and started eating them and handing them out to people just passing by. This fellow is not small, he's over 6 feet tall and almost 400 pounds, and when the PETA folks came outside and told him he'd have to leave, he told them, "Move me!" They left him alone the rest of the day. :rotf:
I split a rotisserie chicken with a friend across the street. :-)
There was a radio station here that sponsored a bass fishing tournament and bull roast right in front of their headquarters. :lmao:
-
To each his own - Huckleberry... :-) :fuelfire:
Maybe I need to tell the bull to be weary of a Patriot, huh? heheh!
-
Big question here, what does the meat from such a cross become.?
Is it marbled with fat as the Angus or very lean as the Bison.
Is the bull sterile, if not what do you breed him with, another BIGUS.?
Lean like Bison. Bred with Angus and Hereford cows. He is definitely not sterile!!!
-
Dead cow...cooked over hickory coals....hmmmmm good.
Dead chicken/turkey.....deep fried in dead hog lard.....hmmmmm good.
Dead hog....cooked any kindda way.....hmmmmm good.
To the guys at PETA.....eat mo' PETA
To the wymins at PETA.....lick mo' fish
Leave the meat eating to professionals.
HA HA!!! :cheersmate:
-
Heh, heh! With my bull it would be a good idea to keep lookin' over yer shoulder! He's a Bison/Angus cross!
Would that be a Bang-us?
Cindie
-
Lean like Bison. Bred with Angus and Hereford cows. He is definitely not sterile!!!
With apologies to Frank, beef needs the fat to give it that smell and taste that drives the neighbors crazy when you BBQ.
We eat occasionally Bison, local raised and I have to marinate it in oil for 12 + hours and it still can't hold a candle to a rib eye steak.
Quick story here.
back in the late 1800" when we were exploring the north pole one explorer went BLIND. His native guides forced him to eat raw blubber from a seal. This explorer had been eating Pemmican for 6 months, lack of fat darn near killed him.
-
With apologies to Frank, beef needs the fat to give it that smell and taste that drives the neighbors crazy when you BBQ.
We eat occasionally Bison, local raised and I have to marinate it in oil for 12 + hours and it still can't hold a candle to a rib eye steak.
Quick story here.
back in the late 1800" when we were exploring the north pole one explorer went BLIND. His native guides forced him to eat raw blubber from a seal. This explorer had been eating Pemmican for 6 months, lack of fat darn near killed him.
They end up being 1/4 bison.
That's the reason for the cow! We get enough fat with the cross. The thing we don't get is 60 to 80 lbs of fat ending up on the cuttin' room floor, like most beef ya buy outa the market or butcher shop!
We occasionally add fat to the hamburger if I get one exceptionally lean. The steaks and roasts are marbled just like the finest restaurant beef on the market! The $30/lb stuff!
ETA:
Trust me, I been doin' it for a while!
-
Vesta--the reason your bison ends up tasting like ass is because you probably burn the living shit out of it.
Bison is so low in fat it's not meant to be cooked higher than medium rare.
I've had bison burgers cooked to that level that are as good as anything I've ever eaten. Steaks too.
-
^ NY Strip Steak...Rare.... :drool:
And a Manhattan. :-)
-
I don't think eating meat is cruel. However, there are some cruel places out there for animals. I try my best to buy from local farmers. Even though the end result is death for the animal, they don't have to live a cruel life before that time comes. Know what you are buying.
I buy local to keep the farmers in business and I usually buy from a butcher shop.
Interesting take, though, soleil.
-
Vegetarian= Native American word for "lousy hunter"......... :-)
-
I buy local to keep the farmers in business and I usually buy from a butcher shop.
Interesting take, though, soleil.
I like to buy local for that reason as well. However, I like to know the animals were treated well and as natural as possible before being slaughtered.
-
Next time I run into one of those self-righteous, holier-than-thou vegan types, I think I'll just make them watch this clip a few hundred times:
[youtube=425,350]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gRTIkj5HF90[/youtube]
Nawwww that ain't shit, THIS is bad ass.
[youtube=425,350]6vlEavUH9ng[/youtube]
You have to be one crazy tough MoFo to do this. He also did it with some Camel shit in one show. Me? I'd rather ****in die of thirst.
-
Nasty! Looks like a great way to poison yourself.
-
Nasty! Looks like a great way to poison yourself.
Nothin' like a little E-coli!
-
I'd rather watch people stab themselves through, and stuff in the SAW series than watch that again. I have a pretty strong stomach, but yuck, freaking yuck!!
Remind me NEVER to get stranded ANYWHERE!