The Conservative Cave
Current Events => General Discussion => Topic started by: debk on June 23, 2010, 03:36:27 PM
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I have been thinking about this all day, and think it would make an interesting discussion....however...please let's keep it a discussion and not turn it into derogatory mud-slinging towards Liberals. While easy to do, that is not the point of why I decided to post this, but because I heard a different viewpoint this morning that made me go...."hmmmmm......"
This morning, I was in the car and was listening to Neal Bootz. He and a caller were discussing - debating - whether or not to sympathize or empathize with Black (only) voters who had voted for Obama.
The caller, who was relatively young....which is important....said anybody who voted for Obama ...got what they deserved....regardless of their skin color.
Boortz, on the other hand, made what I thought....were several good points that I really hadn't considered.
The point about the caller being young....the caller - a man - was young enough to have only read about the civil rights changes in the 60's, in history books or in movies, or television, or what he had heard.
These were Boortz's points...I'm para-phrasing.
1. Black people, who not all that long ago....could not vote. In many places..they had restrooms and water fountains that were for "Negro" only. They had to sit at the back of the bus, couldn't purchase homes, could not get high-paying jobs, could not get into "white" colleges, weren't even equal in the military.
2. To many, who were children or adults, prior to the Civil Rights marches...never thought their lives would change. A Negro becoming President of the United States? Not "NO" ....but "NOT POSSIBLE".
3. Along comes a Black Man....who not only decides he's going to be a Senator, decides he's going to try run for the Presidency....a job that 50 years ago, would be a fantasy.
4. He gets on the ballot...FOR PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES!!
5. Black vote for him....thinking the impossible will never happen. And Obama wins.
Cheers of joy and happiness...a Black Man has become the President of the United States.
History is made....sing Alleluia!
Only to become a dismal failure.
Wringing of hands and gnashing of teeth.....
6. How do we (the blacks who voted for him) overcome the embarassment he has turned out to be?
7. How will we ever get another Black Man - who REALLY is qualified - to ever be taken seriously as a candidate
for President....let alone ever get elected?
8. How could we have been so blinded by his color....how could we have been so taken in?
The guy on the phone did not give a "rat's patoot" as he felt that ALL Blacks should have known what they were getting with Obama, and the only thing to care about is how to get him out of office and get someone in there who knows what they are doing.
He did not care, or think, the historical aspect was relative nor important.
What I got out of Boortz's comments was that he felt there should be empathy and sympathy for the average Black person....particularly the older ones who lived through the civil rights changes.
Not that it was an excuse....but to empathize....as they were taken in.....just as many were. (after all the guy DID get elected)
Also, that just because Obama has been a dismal failure....that it should be that he is a dismal failure as a PERSON president....not as a BLACK person president.
And that just because Obama has failed....that there is nothing to stop another black person from trying to be president and that ALL people should consider the person....not the person's COLOR when making a judgement (vote).
I've thought about this a lot today.
MY questions for discussion....
Just because Obama, is black (yeah...I know he's white too, not the point here)....will that keep you from considering another black person for president?
Is Obama a failure because he is black?
Because this black person failed at being qualified....should all black people automatically be judged not qualified, competent, or taken seriously ... to be President of the United States?
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I have more sympathy for the older blacks that voted for him for those reasons, than I do for the young blacks that saw it as a way of getting free stuff from a brother, or for the white people that voted for him out of "white guilt".
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Whether to sympathize or empathize with black voters who vote for Obama?
Am I understanding this correctly, Deb?
I neither sympathize nor empathize with black voters. Those voters, as far as I'm concerned, couldn't see past Lord Zero's half-white, half-black countenance - all they saw was "black". Never mind the message, never mind the lies, never mind the impossible statements that spewed out of his mouth. Those people couldn't see it then and most of them can't see it now.
White guilt put Obama in office. Nothing more, nothing less, except for the entitlement crowd which is becoming more and more of an issue.
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Whether to sympathize or empathize with black voters who vote for Obama?
Am I understanding this correctly, Deb?
I neither sympathize nor empathize with black voters. Those voters, as far as I'm concerned, couldn't see past Lord Zero's half-white, half-black countenance - all they saw was "black". Never mind the message, never mind the lies, never mind the impossible statements that spewed out of his mouth. Those people couldn't see it then and most of them can't see it now.
White guilt put Obama in office. Nothing more, nothing less, except for the entitlement crowd which is becoming more and more of an issue.
I do not empathize or sympathize for anyone who voted for anyone based on their color. That would be like me voting for Roseanne because she is female.
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Sorry....I thought the whole thing got zapped...and then I had a phone call.
Let me add the rest of Boortz'a points, and I would appreciate you all re-reading....I'm sorry.
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I appreciate what you are trying to say, but I have to vote no on this one. Many minorities want to claim the words of MLK but they don't always want to put them into action. How can we vote for the most important office in our country based on color alone? As VP Bite Me would say, this is a big $%#@ deal!
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Whether to sympathize or empathize with black voters who vote for Obama?
Am I understanding this correctly, Deb?
I neither sympathize nor empathize with black voters. Those voters, as far as I'm concerned, couldn't see past Lord Zero's half-white, half-black countenance - all they saw was "black". Never mind the message, never mind the lies, never mind the impossible statements that spewed out of his mouth. Those people couldn't see it then and most of them can't see it now.
White guilt put Obama in office. Nothing more, nothing less, except for the entitlement crowd which is becoming more and more of an issue.
Boortz made the comment that he thought black voters are "too embarrassed" to admit they were wrong.
I took his reference to black people as blacks in general....not a specific segment of them....just as an average.
I think those who go out day after day, work, provide for their families, go about their daily life....just as any other "average" American -regardless of color....if they voted for Obama...are extremely disappointed.
And you are right, Euph....I think they were dazzled. Not just that he was black.....but when he was campaigning...he was very charismatic.
I heard some of his speeches.....and I must admit.....some of his ideas sounded great.
Too great.
And I guess I'm old enough and been disillusioned enough, that I didn't believe what he said for more than about 15 seconds...or however long it took to process his words. They sounded to "pretty" to be true and he reminded me too much of Nicholai in the Left Behind Series.
To me, the fact that he is black....or half black...is irrelevant to whether or not he is capable of being President.
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I appreciate what you are trying to say, but I have to vote no on this one. Many minorities want to claim the words of MLK but they don't always want to put them into action. How can we vote for the most important office in our country based on color alone? As VP Bite Me would say, this is a big $%#@ deal!
I'm not asking for a vote....otherwise I would have done a poll.
Boortz was the one who was asking if there was empathy or sympathy for the blacks who voted Obama....and I wasn't creative enough to come up with a better title to get people into the discussion. :thatsright:
I guess what I'm wondering ..... do you think the average blacks are embarrassed, ashamed, disappointed in Obama?
And is Obama a failure because of his skin color?
Will the average voter hold Obama's failures against any other black person - man or woman - who seeks to be President?
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If Condi Rice ran, I would not only vote for her but donate money, if that answers your question.
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I don't have any sympathy or empathy for any blacks who voted for Obama simply because he was black. Just like no one had any sympathy for me when Giuliani, who is italian, didn't win the primary. I would vote for a black conservative, no question about it.
I understand the whole black person making history and all that...but still doesn't sway my sympathy away or towards a black person.
We still haven't had a woman president....I wouldn't vote for a woman lib just so we can have the first woman president.
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Boortz made the comment that he thought black voters are "too embarrassed" to admit they were wrong.
I took his reference to black people as blacks in general....not a specific segment of them....just as an average.
I think those who go out day after day, work, provide for their families, go about their daily life....just as any other "average" American -regardless of color....if they voted for Obama...are extremely disappointed.
And you are right, Euph....I think they were dazzled. Not just that he was black.....but when he was campaigning...he was very charismatic.
I heard some of his speeches.....and I must admit.....some of his ideas sounded great.
Too great.
And I guess I'm old enough and been disillusioned enough, that I didn't believe what he said for more than about 15 seconds...or however long it took to process his words. They sounded to "pretty" to be true and he reminded me too much of Nicholai in the Left Behind Series.
To me, the fact that he is black....or half black...is irrelevant to whether or not he is capable of being President.
Thanks for the follow-up. Makes more sense now.
I have to quibble with you concerning your choice of one word - charismatic.
I took a look at him when he gave his 2004 Hope & Change speech at the DNC, and I could not have been more put off.
I likened him to a snake -- immediately, totally, and without need for further analysis.
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And of course - his skin color makes absolutely no difference whether or not he can execute the office. But try convincing blacks of that -- at least most of those who were idolizing every word that came out of his mouth.
To be fair, there were a shitload of whites who did the same thing. And the white guilt that they brought to the party is what put LZ in the White House.
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Thanks for the follow-up. Makes more sense now.
I have to quibble with you concerning your choice of one word - charismatic.
I took a look at him when he gave his 2004 Hope & Change speech at the DNC, and I could not have been more put off.
I likened him to a snake -- immediately, totally, and without need for further analysis.
Snake oil salesmen and some of those mega-church Evangelicals are "charismatic".
Whether or not, they are to you or me....doesn't mean that they aren't to others....which is why I used the word.
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Bullshit on the "older blacks did not know any better"!
As the courts have stated for many, many years - "ignorance of the law is no excuse"!
Every voter has a RESPONSIBILITY to THEIR voting RIGHTS to personally vet the candidate they are considering and that is much more than the one hour nightly broadcast of Chris "I wet myself" Mathews and 15 minutes of NPR radio on the way to work in the morning.
Remember the Nazi's after the end of WWII saying "I was just taking orders"?
They got hung for that and rightly so.
Blacks ONLY excuse could possibility be because they are racist in that they ONLY voted for 0bama was because he was black.
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I can empathize to a point.
I can understand that blacks who either lived through the civil Rights era or have living relatives who did would rush headlong into voting for Obama to rpvoe they could and that a black man could be elected.
OK, I get it.
But where were they when Clarence Thomas, Dr. Condi Rice, Janice Rogers Brown and other black conservatives were being politically lynched in the media?
We were told conservatives were not authentic blacks.
We can only do so much to free a man. There is only so much blood to be spilled, so many court cases to be won, so many laws to be passed and local bigots with firehoses and police dogs to be stared down. There comes a time where you have to stand up for your own freedom or you will only sell yourself back into your own chains.
7. How will we ever get another Black Man - who REALLY is qualified - to ever be taken seriously as a candidate
for President....let alone ever get elected?
That isn't even a concern. You give the American people a solid candidate and they'll vote for him/her.
The only threat is that candidate will be shredded as a race traitor because real blacks have to be commies or some such stupid shit.
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I don't feel sympathy...though I do feel some empathy....for the older blacks who did live through the civil rights.
Maybe because of growing up where I did, I didn't go to school with black kids until HS, and then they were jocks, cheerleaders, on student council - there weren't many of them, either. And this was during the '60's. While I was aware of the civil rights protests...they weren't happening in my little world because the blacks weren't "oppressed".
It wasn't until I moved to the South in the late '70's that I became so aware of the difference in how the midwestern blacks lived compared with those in VA and NC.
Thinking of the people I met in the late 70's, early 80's - I can see many of them voting for a black man. "Praise God....one of our own has made it out of the past and moved into the future!"
I can also see them, being terribly disappointed in the man Obama is.
It's very easy for us Conservatives, to sit here and say...."Oh I knew he was going to be bad, because he's an effin' Liberal and they are all bad!"
But really.....just how many of us.....really, really, REALLY anticipated him being this bad?
Yes, we knew he didn't know much about the military...
But, hey, wasn't he supposed to be a Constitutional scholar?
Yes, he voted "present"....
But, but, but.....seriously....this bad?
I do have empathy for people who thought ....it was going to be their time to shine (vicariously)....only to find out that it was nothing more than a trick of the sun.
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We can only do so much to free a man. There is only so much blood to be spilled, so many court cases to be won, so many laws to be passed and local bigots with firehoses and police dogs to be stared down. There comes a time where you have to stand up for your own freedom or you will only sell yourself back into your own chains.
Words of extreme wisdom, MSB, which we would all do well to heed.
My take on this is that it is unlikely that "white guilt" will play much of a role in the next presidential cycle.......it was largely independent voters that created this mess, and unfortunately, they will be the ones to get us out of it.......
So far as the black vote is concerned, one only has to look at any major population center, where blacks form the voting majority to determine the effects of their political attitudes on the body politic. It is generally not a pretty sight.
All of us have a responsibility to cast an informed vote.......and voting for skin color is not "informed"......it is simply bigoted. Do I have empathy for those who did, unfortunately no......they made their bed, and I could care less about their exposure to racial discrimination in the past......if they are black, would I expect them to learn from this experience the next time......again, no. I'm not at all confident that the majority of the black population will see through the race issue, and vote with an honest appraisal of the candidate's qualifications.
History simply has not shown me that they are capable of it......
doc
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No sympathy or empathy from me. O'bama only got 2 votes. The racist vote and the entitlement vote. I can't have sympathy for racists nor can I have empathy for the entitled of this country.
As to would I vote for a black .... what the hell does that mean? I seriously don't look at the color of anyone's skin when I'm hiring them. I want to know if they can do the job I'm hiring for. O'bama couldn't do it so I didn't hire him. Unfortunately I was out voted. I'm only one vote of the board of directors and now I have to live with their mistake but you can damn sure bet I'm making sure the stock holders know who hired this dumbass.
KC
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Not sure what to call it. I can't imagine what it must feel like to have ever been so oppressed. I also can't imagine voting someone just for their race. I can see wanting so badly for a black person to be POTUS if I were a black person and the thought were unimaginable at one time. That would be and is historic. But we should never vote for a person because of their color or sex. That is ridiculous. On the other hand, I can see being proud that a black person was elected POTUS. Especially if I grew up in a time when it was an impossible thought.
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It's very easy for us Conservatives, to sit here and say...."Oh I knew he was going to be bad, because he's an effin' Liberal and they are all bad!"
But really.....just how many of us.....really, really, REALLY anticipated him being this bad?
Yes, we knew he didn't know much about the military...
But, hey, wasn't he supposed to be a Constitutional scholar?
Yes, he voted "present"....
But, but, but.....seriously....this bad?
From my recollection, I think mostly everyone here knew he was going to be bad. A junior senator voting Present for most of his votes.....his liberal and radical associations...it's not shocker to many of us.
You can't plant a weed and expect to get a rose....stupid analogy.. but you know what I mean.
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From my recollection, I think mostly everyone here knew he was going to be bad. A junior senator voting Present for most of his votes.....his liberal and radical associations...it's not shocker to many of us.
You can't plant a weed and expect to get a rose....stupid analogy.. but you know what I mean.
I know what you mean.
I agree, I think that most of us knew he was going to be bad.
But I have to admit....I could not imagine him being this bad.
I was in my late 20's-early 30's when Carter was president. I thought he was awful. But I don't think he holds a candle to Obama.
I thought Hillary would have been disastrous for this country.
I never thought I would say....I would rather have had Hillary.
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I know what you mean.
I agree, I think that most of us knew he was going to be bad.
But I have to admit....I could not imagine him being this bad.
I was in my late 20's-early 30's when Carter was president. I thought he was awful. But I don't think he holds a candle to Obama.
I thought Hillary would have been disastrous for this country.
I never thought I would say....I would rather have had Hillary.
What's scary is I expected much worse and he still has time.
There were many around here saying he'd be worse than Carter, had no experience, was clueless ect. He's done all that and more. There were those saying he would destroy the country, stick us with 20 million more mexicans, drag us into socialism, get us nuked or bio attacked ect. They are seeing it happening too. zero's dance card has been full so far but he's working his way around the room to it and that's the scariest part of it all.
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Not sure what to call it. I can't imagine what it must feel like to have ever been so oppressed. I also can't imagine voting someone just for their race. I can see wanting so badly for a black person to be POTUS if I were a black person and the thought were unimaginable at one time. That would be and is historic. But we should never vote for a person because of their color or sex. That is ridiculous. On the other hand, I can see being proud that a black person was elected POTUS. Especially if I grew up in a time when it was an impossible thought.
Soleil, I remember a time when few people believed that Kennedy could be elected President because he was Catholic. The thinking at that time was if Kennedy became POTUS he would be taking orders from the Pope.
What is this White Guilt I keep hearing about.?? Living in the south for years I find no guilt among the whites down there, in fact they are proud of their heritage and family roots. Most small towns have cemetery's with a small plank at each grave site with CSA Confederate States of America.
White guilt in the north would be kind of strange when one looks at the thousands and thousands of whites that died to free the slaves. Anyone whose family was here in the early 1880's with a male child over the age of 14-15 sent them off to save the lives of the slaves.
White guilt cannot be attached to any of the whites that emigrated here after the war, they had nothing to do with American slavery.
So where is this so called white guilt coming from.?? Where are the millions of whites in this country that feel guilt for things that happend either before they arrived here, who lost family to free the slaves and fought and died in the 1960's on their freedom rides to push again for the rights of the blacks.
White guilt simply does not exist, this is a made up excuse that people buy into.
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vesta:
What is this White Guilt I keep hearing about.?? Living in the south for years I find no guilt among the whites down there, in fact they are proud of their heritage and family roots. Most small towns have cemetery's with a small plank at each grave site with CSA Confederate States of America.
I guess I'd define "white guilt" as that quality that many whites feel (broad brush stroke here) in reaction to, and in opposition to, the Jim Crow laws of old and the oppression that for years characterized the treatment of blacks.
Instead of acknowledging those sins and pledging to remove those conditions, many whites felt compelled to "level the playing field" by employing quotas, adopting cute little programs like "Affirmative Action" (which is simply another form of bigotry and even racism), and otherwise ensuring that blacks understood that government will fix the problem.
That kind of philosophy is partially the reason why many blacks today look toward anywhere else but themselves to solve their problems. The message from those whites is, "It's okay - you don't have the wherewithal to address your neighborhood's blight, your inner city violence and drug problems, and the family center that has been destroyed. But we (meaning whites) do." But I digress.
"White guilt" is simply an overreaction by whites in a frenzied attempt to make things equal between the races, but more often than not, such attitudes wind up insulting blacks and confirming to them that they're incapable of making things happen for themselves.
In the case of Lord Zero, many whites looked upon him as being the creme de la creme - this is the man that will ultimately spell that we, as a nation, have arrived vis a vis civil rights. Electing a black man (even a partially black man) to the highest office in the land vindicates whites and the centuries of oppression that blacks have suffered.
In short, Obama is the crowning jewel of how far we've come insofar as civil rights is concerned. Qualifications, experience, and other "niceties" like a clear and well-documented past aren't required. Just a reasonably articulate black man with a law degree.
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What's scary is I expected much worse and he still has time.
There were many around here saying he'd be worse than Carter, had no experience, was clueless ect. He's done all that and more. There were those saying he would destroy the country, stick us with 20 million more mexicans, drag us into socialism, get us nuked or bio attacked ect. They are seeing it happening too. zero's dance card has been full so far but he's working his way around the room to it and that's the scariest part of it all.
Word. That's pretty close to my own thoughts. As much as he's screwed up so far, he still has boundless opportunities for disaster creation, which he seems to be energetically pursuing.
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I don't care who you are......
Voting for someone based wholly or even in part due to the color of their skin, ain't nothing but
PURE STUPID!!!!!!!
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I don't care who you are......
Voting for someone based wholly or even in part due to the color of their skin, ain't nothing but
PURE STUPID RACIST!!!!!!!
I fixed it for you. There is no other word for voting (or hiring or anything else) based on a skin tone or an ethnicity of any kind. Even if it was just a little bit. It's like being a little bit pregnant ... it's either all or nothing in that spectrum.
KC
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I fixed it for you. There is no other word for voting (or hiring or anything else) based on a skin tone or an ethnicity of any kind. Even if it was just a little bit. It's like being a little bit pregnant ... it's either all or nothing in that spectrum.
KC
:hi5: :II:
I need to use this one more :II:
I'd use this for 2 thumbs up :thumbs: but it suffers from :2muchgay:
:-)
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I'm just MAD at EVERYONE who voted for him. Uninformed voters seem to be the greatest threat to our country, so I only have empathy with those of us who tried to tell them of the impending disaster of an Obama presidency.
"I'm not a racist, I can't stand his white half either" :cheersmate:
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I'm just MAD at EVERYONE who voted for him. Uninformed voters seem to be the greatest threat to our country, so I only have empathy with those of us who tried to tell them of the impending disaster of an Obama presidency.
"I'm not a racist, I can't stand his white half either" :cheersmate:
Oh Seabelle, how you made me laugh.
I look at my Hubby who is half Italian and half Irish and notice that he does carry more of his Mothers identity, the Italian side then the Irish fathers side. Perhaps this is because the Italian side had had a bigger role in his upbringing then his Dads.
This may explain how Obama was raised, well meaning mothers family with no father around, then the step dad, trying to keep a connection between his fathers heritage and not giving him as much connection with his mothers heritage. They may have figured being raised in a white home, he would somehow pull all this together by himself. He really had some problems growing up, raised and educated for a few years as a Muslim, with a black Kenyon father with 2-3 other wives.
Like all of us Mutts, at some time we have to identify with either the mothers or the fathers heritage. His choice was easy, he looked black, others identified him as black, his dad was from Africa, so his self identification is and was black.
His genetics and DNA are half white, but the mental part of him is black. I can find nothing of the education or upbringing to make me believe he has any respect for his mothers heritage. I full well remember him calling his fathers 2nd. wife grandmother. This is tradition he said--- Certainly not any white tradition I have yet to hear of.
Now about his Aunt who lives here in this country, who the Hell is she really, is she the daughter of his fathers 3rd. wife ?? His so called half brother , could he be the child of his Dads 2nd. wife that existed before his Dad married her.??
On to his wife, we tend to ignore her past, who and where is she from, while we concentrate on Obama we forget that the most important influence in his life is his wife. What are her roots, who influenced her as a young adult.??
Rant over--for now.