The Conservative Cave
Current Events => The DUmpster => The DUmping Ground => Topic started by: zeitgeist on June 07, 2010, 11:32:14 AM
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Are public workers paid too much?
Well duh?? :thatsright:
One thing for sure when the Public Unions are involved the Taxpayer takes a drubbing.
This little bondfire has just started. Who knows what it will grow into but I brought everything there when it started for those who don't want to paddle over to the island.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x8503959
pscot (1000+ posts) Mon Jun-07-10 11:32 AM
Original message
Are public workers paid too much?
The average American worker has been steadily losing ground on wages, benefits and retirement security. Public sector workers have, in general, done a lot better. With government debt ballooning at all levels, Governors and mayors are going after public sector unions that were once untouchable. Most of us here are predisposed to side with the workers, but your pay is falling or you're in constant fear of being laid off, you may feel some resentment toward your neighbor, who works for the city and is still living high. This is likely to become a major political issue as the economy continues to stagger.
Spurred by state budget crunches and an angry public mood, Republican and some Democratic leaders are focusing with increasing intensity on public workers and the unions that represent them, casting them as overpaid obstacles to good government and demanding cuts in their often-generous benefits.
Unlike past battles over the high cost of labor, this time pitched battles over wages and pensions are being waged from Sacramento to Springfield to New York City and the conflict is marked by its bipartisan tone, with public employee unions emerging as an intransigent public enemy number one in cities and state capitals across the country. They're the whipping boys for a new generation of governors who, thanks to a tanking economy and an assist from editorial boards, feel freer than ever to make political targets out of what was once a protected liberal class of teachers, cops, and other public servants.
Republicans around the nation have cheered New Jersey Gov. Chris Christie, whose shouting match over budget cuts with an outraged teacher—“You don’t have to†teach, he told her without sympathy—became a YouTube sensation on the right last week.
.....
Christie is merely the most florid voice for a calculated, national effort to fundamentally reshape the debate on the labor costs that account for the bulk of government spending at every level. And at the core of the shift is a perception among many political leaders that public anger at civil servants is boiling over.
“We have a new privileged class in America,†said Indiana Gov. Mitch Daniels, who rescinded state workers' collective bargaining power on his first day in office in 2006. “We used to think of government workers as underpaid public servants. Now they are better paid than the people who pay their salaries
Read more: http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0610/38183.html#ix...
av8rdave (1000+ posts) Mon Jun-07-10 11:36 AM
Response to Original message
1. I have a hard time feeling resentment for anyone doing well via actual work
Anytime you see workers wages/benefits take a hit, you see the expectations for everyone else get lowered.
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pscot (1000+ posts) Mon Jun-07-10 11:43 AM
Response to Reply #1
3. Agreed
But if the taxpayers are being hammered by the economy with no end in sight, resentment toward government workers is pretty much a given.
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av8rdave (1000+ posts) Mon Jun-07-10 11:48 AM
Response to Reply #3
5. True that....
I feel the resentment is misdirected and based on ignorance. The resentment should be directed at those who strive to lower the wages of workers, not those who happen to be doing OK.
However, I understand it is what it is. The resentment you speak of is inevitable, unfortunately.
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Salviati (1000+ posts) Mon Jun-07-10 11:40 AM
Response to Original message
2. No, private sector workers are paid too little.
The parasite class has been siphoning off all the gains in worker productivity over the last several decades, leaving the worker with nothing to show for their increased production.
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marmar (1000+ posts) Mon Jun-07-10 11:44 AM
Response to Reply #2
4. +1000
nt
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pscot (1000+ posts) Mon Jun-07-10 11:55 AM
Response to Reply #2
9. That begs the question
If workers in general are being screwed, and they are, how long can they be expected to support public employees who have better pay and better benefits?Saying that workers need to be paid more is empty rhetoric. Meanwhile, reality is kicking our ass.
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Raineyb (1000+ posts) Mon Jun-07-10 11:57 AM
Response to Reply #9
15. So your solution is to put more people on the unemployment rolls?
That makes no sense at all.
The question isn't are public employees being paid too much. The problem is the private sector workers are being paid too little. Meanwhile without those public employees how exactly are the public services supposed to get done? By magic wand?
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arbusto_baboso (1000+ posts) Mon Jun-07-10 11:58 AM
Response to Reply #2
17. Exactly. When I started working public sector, private sector jobs were better paid.
We public sector people stayed in iur jobs for the benefits and "job security" (which no longer exists anywhere).
I've steadily watched private sector compensation drop in comparison to my job.
But then, government employees are ALWAYS the whipping boys for opportunistic politicians looking to "trim fat". Why don't they start with their own office expenses, I wonder???
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Johonny (1000+ posts) Mon Jun-07-10 11:49 AM
Response to Original message
6. It's almost like good strong unions are a benefit to workers or something
It's funny all my rethug friends want to stick it to the state workers. They are sick of hearing about all their benefits. It never occurs to them maybe if they unionized they'd have better benefits too. Instead they want to drag everyone down to their level. The race to the bottom brought to you by conservatism.
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Starry Messenger (1000+ posts) Mon Jun-07-10 11:57 AM
Response to Reply #6
16. Thank you. n/t
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RobinA (1000+ posts) Mon Jun-07-10 12:08 PM
Response to Reply #6
21. Where Are These
public sector employees who are living high? THAT'S the myth. I am a public sector employee who makes $43,000 with a Masters in a job the requires a Masters. I live in SE PA. I am NOT living high. The only advatage I have is I pay less for medical insurance than some in the private sector. I will have a decent pension - which I pay for at a way higher rate than I ever paid in the private sector. I pay for disabilty insurance completely on my own, it isn't a benefit option. I am 52 years old, have worked my entire life, and have one week vacation, far less than I ever had in the private sector. If the state government closes down for the day because of a blizzard, I still have to be at work because I am "essential." I do have above average job security and a union, so they can't completely screw us. Other than the pathetic vacation, I am not complaining, I know I have it better than a lot of other people. I took this job two years ago because it was union.
I get tired of everybody bitching and moaning about public employees. The really good perks, if they ever existed, only exist for the people who have worked the public sector for a million years. And, I might add, when those peachy benefits came about they were a pay off for truly lousy pay. It is only within the past decade or so that the public sector has been a better deal than the private sector. And for that I have one word UNION. The lesson should be not, let's screww the public sector because at this one point in time they have a moderately better deal, let's take the lesson as - join a freakin' union and have some of your rights preserved.
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City Lights (1000+ posts) Mon Jun-07-10 11:53 AM
Response to Original message
7. No. CEOs and top-level management are paid too much.
Edited on Mon Jun-07-10 12:07 PM by City Lights
If they'd take a pay cut there would be much more for the employees below them.
typo edit
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Orlandodem (429 posts) Mon Jun-07-10 11:53 AM
Response to Original message
8. Maybe those who aren't happy with their compensation in the private sector should
get a job in the public sector! Those who worship at the altar of the private sector said for decades that public employees should get a job in the private sector if they want more pay. Now the shoe is on the other foot for better or for worse. God forbid teachers, police, and the firemen be paid well! Of course, it's not like this group is getting paid well to start with.
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mariawr (145 posts) Mon Jun-07-10 11:55 AM
Response to Original message
10. Public Jobs are only good because the manufacturing jobs
that used to outpay the public jobs are gone. I started teaching in 1970 for $7K a year. My friends who went straight to a factory or manufacturing jobs used to laugh at me because they were making double or triple my pay.
Now the corp pigs want to gut the public sector jobs.
We will all be working for temp job pay and no benefits if they have their way.
Fight back. Be heard.
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Greyhound (1000+ posts) Mon Jun-07-10 11:55 AM
Response to Original message
11. This is why you don't need a lid for your bucket when you go crabbing. n/t
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jp11 (237 posts) Mon Jun-07-10 11:55 AM
Response to Original message
12. Misery loves company.
"If I can't have mine, you shouldn't have yours." GO AMERIKA!
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Dappleganger (1000+ posts) Mon Jun-07-10 11:56 AM
Response to Original message
13. They are receiving decent benefits, appropriate raises and retirement.
Please show me where this is wrong! Just because the private sector is getting away with driving down wages and eroding benefits, why does the public sector have to 'keep up'??
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kctim (1000+ posts) Mon Jun-07-10 11:56 AM
Response to Original message
14. It's all about perception
and they bring it upon themselves.
Five people standing around while one fills a pothole. Long lines with one open window while three drink coffee and laugh in the background. Tons of half work days. More holidays off. Absolute terrible attitudes. etc...
And then there is the tons and tons of fraud, waste and abuse.
I don't think they are paid too much, but they sure as hell don't do anything to change the stereotype.
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arbusto_baboso (1000+ posts) Mon Jun-07-10 12:09 PM
Response to Reply #14
22. What bullshit you spout.
I'm pretty damn sure I work more and harder than YOU do.
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bigdarryl (1000+ posts) Mon Jun-07-10 12:01 PM
Response to Original message
18. I am a State Correction Officer for NJ I'm making 80,000 a year
but its a dangerous job that 30 years ago no one wanted to do but most state workers are not highly paid my sister who works in Governor (crispy cream) Christy office as a secretary only makes 31,000 a year and thats working for the state for 9 years
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Deep13 (1000+ posts) Mon Jun-07-10 12:01 PM
Response to Original message
19. No. CEOs and trust fund brats are. nt
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David__77 (1000+ posts) Mon Jun-07-10 12:07 PM
Response to Original message
20. In many, many cases, public workers make less than their private counterparts.
The media and others try to whip up resentment against public worker pensions, etc., but the fact is that many public workers make a conscious choice to make less in wages and more in benefits in terms of compensation. It's less risk, but lower salary. For instance, a plumber or electrician working for a public agency will make relatively low wages usually, but have a great pension in many cases. Same thing with lawyers, accountants, etc.
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ejpoeta (1000+ posts) Mon Jun-07-10 12:11 PM
Response to Original message
23. i don't know but they were doing a thing this morning about teachers wages in the area...
going on an average for different districts. the problem is that an average is just that.... some make more and some less. now who are you including in this average? because the teachers are probably making less than administrators or higher ups. i think these stories do a disservice to regular public employees as well as teachers. trying to make it sound like they are making out like bandits while the rest of us are drowning. when that is not generally the case.
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YES!!!!
Our county employees get an average $26,000 in pension funding every year. That alone is more than a large percentage of the private sector gets for basic wages. Oh and at 3:59 in the afternoon, you can fire of a magazine in any county office building and have absolutely no fear of hitting anybody...none whatsoever.
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Not all public workers make enough ....at least in this state (TN) and my county.
Our emergency workers - police, fire and EMT's - most have 2, some 3, jobs in order to make ends meet. They, flat out, are not paid enough. Next county over, pays their's quite a bit more.
Our teachers aren't paid enough either, which is why so many of the good ones, quit here and go to either Georgia or Kentucky, because they are paid more.
:(
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Some very un-DUish posts there.
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Do any research and you will find gubmint employees make substantially more money for doing the same thing as in the private sector. The excuse has always been, in order to get the caliber of worker they need, they must offer as much, or more, in order to fill the position.
BULL SHIRT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1111111111111
What we end up with, is a lazy POS that does less, gets paid more, and is impossible to get rid of! Just drive by a construction job operated by the county! 5 guys standing around supervising while 1 leans on a shovel! The utmost vision of efficiency! NOT!!!!
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Do any research and you will find gubmint employees make substantially more money for doing the same thing as in the private sector. The excuse has always been, in order to get the caliber of worker they need, they must offer as much, or more, in order to fill the position.
BULL SHIRT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1111111111111
What we end up with, is a lazy POS that does less, gets paid more, and is impossible to get rid of! Just drive by a construction job operated by the county! 5 guys standing around supervising while 1 leans on a shovel! The utmost vision of efficiency! NOT!!!!
But, but....it takes 10 guys to fix a pothole.
1 to drive the truck.
2 to direct traffic.
1 to fill the hole (the new guy).
1 to supervise the hole filler (2nd to the newest guy).
5 to talk about fishing over the weekend.
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Some are and some aren't. It's really not the basic pay that is kicking the ass of the States and cities, it's the high defined benefit levels and early eligility age of their retirement programs.
The Fed system is entirely different than most of the state ones, the minimum retirement age is higher and rising, and since the mid-80s they have a very limited defined benefit (1% per year of service, slightly higher for law enforcement and firemen and with a slightly younger eligibility age, with a big chunk of the retirement payoff being in the form of payout on a contributory investment/savings plan).
There are big structural differences in how the Fed system works vs. State/local and also vs. private sector. At least in DOD, outside the trades or critical life-support stuff, overtime is almost unheard-of, so the basic pay is basically all the pay you normally expect to get, i.e. the top end is a totally-known quantity each year. State/municipal jobs generally seem to involve MUCH poorer control of overtime costs, which is a bleeding wound in their budgets, but there is also a lot more scope for buddy networks and corruption to affect approval and abuse of it in those kind of organizations; on the downside, since the Fed worker's hours don't directly generate a profit but deliver a service (Often internally to the organization) it is much more difficult to justify overtime when it really is needed than is the case in the private sector, where output and income are directly connected.
The Feds also have a rather-outdated lifetime employment model where after a certain point the job is treated as a lifetime entitlement from which you can only be removed for good cause, instead of more modern and flexible approaches like a periodically-renewable contract. This makes Fed sector employment most attractive to those who want a very stable employment but are willing to accept a pretty flat pay curve over their careers in exchange. The flat pay curve tends to over-reward the more junior and under-reward the more senior. Workforce flexibility is non-existent, since the employment model makes it impossible to lay off any significant number of employees without a very-extended notice period (And if not correctly-executed, the notice becomes void and you're back at Square One), which is why contractors are so heavily used, as they can be turned on or off very quickly.
The last attempt to make this Fed system more flexible was limited to DOD (The so-called 'NSPS' system) and was a disaster, chuck full of unresolved structural problems, inherent conflicts, and logical flaws. It was basically written for the personal advantage of the people inside the Beltway who concocted it, but at the expense of completely screwing over everyone else. On top of everything else, it actually increased the problem of cronyism and worked against the supposedly-sacrosanct merit principles by divorcing the chain of actual supervision from the chain making decisions about rewards.
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But, but....it takes 10 guys to fix a pothole.
1 to drive the truck.
2 to direct traffic.
1 to fill the hole (the new guy).
1 to supervise the hole filler (2nd to the newest guy).
5 to talk about fishing over the weekend.
This guy (http://www.omaha.com/article/20100606/NEWS01/706069904) might argue about how many people it takes to fix potholes.
Vigilante patches up his street
Smacking into the same street craters outside your home over and over can get maddening.
So Zac Handler applied a little pothole vigilantism, along with some concrete mix he picked up at a local hardware store.
“People were swerving like the slalom in the Olympics, trying to go around the potholes,†the 27-year-old medical school graduate said.
His frustration peaked the last weekend in May, after he left his apartment on 38th Avenue near Jackson Street. He was reflecting on the zigzag ritual he'd been perfecting the previous six months when he saw a Lowe's store.
“I thought ‘How hard can it be?' â€
Handler explained his peeve to experts inside. He walked out with a bag of materials and got on his computer to double-check the procedure.
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av8rdave (1000+ posts) Mon Jun-07-10 11:48 AM
5. True that....
I feel the resentment is misdirected and based on ignorance. The resentment should be directed at those who strive to lower the wages of workers, not those who happen to be doing OK.
However, I understand it is what it is. The resentment you speak of is inevitable, unfortunately.
My anger isn't because of ignorance, my anger is because my property taxes have gone from $2,200 to $8,000 in 10 years to pay for a lot of waste and to pay entire benefits for Teachers and town employees.
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Just who the hell do they think pays those public sector workers? When those paying your salary are making half as much as you there's something wrong with the system. Unions are NOT the answer (worked out real well for GM, didn't it...now the American tax payer has to pay for them too) because perks and salary eventually overtake profits. But it is kinda funny to hear them spewing sentiments that usually gets us labeled as greedy hatemongers. This thread needs to be saved for the next time one of them talks about greed on the right.
Cindie
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What did I once read? Fifty percent of government workers are employed in one fashion or the other to collect the taxes it takes to pay their wages?
Yes, I say the whole thing is broken.
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http://www.fedjobs.com/pay/pay.html
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jp11 (237 posts) Mon Jun-07-10 11:55 AM
Response to Original message
12. Misery loves company.
"If I can't have mine, you shouldn't have yours." GO AMERIKA!
Are you kidding me? That's pretty much the Leftist mantra.
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RobinA (1000+ posts) Mon Jun-07-10 12:08 PM
Response to Reply #6
21. Where Are These
public sector employees who are living high? THAT'S the myth. I am a public sector employee who makes $43,000 with a Masters in a job the requires a Masters. I live in SE PA. I am NOT living high. The only advatage I have is I pay less for medical insurance than some in the private sector. I will have a decent pension - which I pay for at a way higher rate than I ever paid in the private sector. I pay for disabilty insurance completely on my own, it isn't a benefit option. I am 52 years old, have worked my entire life, and have one week vacation, far less than I ever had in the private sector. If the state government closes down for the day because of a blizzard, I still have to be at work because I am "essential." I do have above average job security and a union, so they can't completely screw us. Other than the pathetic vacation, I am not complaining, I know I have it better than a lot of other people. I took this job two years ago because it was union.
I get tired of everybody bitching and moaning about public employees. The really good perks, if they ever existed, only exist for the people who have worked the public sector for a million years. And, I might add, when those peachy benefits came about they were a pay off for truly lousy pay. It is only within the past decade or so that the public sector has been a better deal than the private sector. And for that I have one word UNION. The lesson should be not, let's screww the public sector because at this one point in time they have a moderately better deal, let's take the lesson as - join a freakin' union and have some of your rights preserved.
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Ok, it has had a job for 2 frickin' years and how much vacation does it think it should get?!
Second point .... what the hell is the union doing for it if it has such lousy vacation.
Jeeze. I can never understand why people think they should start out in a job with 2 weeks sick pay and 4 weeks vacation. I don't give a damn if you're 52! You've still only been at the one job for 2 lousy frickin' years. Earn what you want DUmbass. Being union you should know the benefits of longevity on the job.
KC
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http://www.fedjobs.com/pay/pay.html
and then you have to add ....
Note: The following is a BASE pay scale. All U.S. locations (including Hawaii and Alaska) receive additional pay adjustments above the base pay ranging from 14.16% to 35.15%. To see the adjustment and pay scale for your location, scroll down the page and click on the location of your choice!
Location, location, location, plus other pay adds for specialties. You can make good money working for the fed.
The Boston area is one of the higher areas.
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Not all public workers make enough ....at least in this state (TN) and my county.
Our emergency workers - police, fire and EMT's - most have 2, some 3, jobs in order to make ends meet. They, flat out, are not paid enough. Next county over, pays their's quite a bit more.
Our teachers aren't paid enough either, which is why so many of the good ones, quit here and go to either Georgia or Kentucky, because they are paid more.
:(
My brother is a state trooper and runs a tire store. His wife is a teacher. My brother also was being a security guard for a local apartment complex to make ends meet. A state trooper and a teacher are very important jobs. The state trooper puts his life on the line daily and helps keep us safe, and the teacher teaches our youth. These jobs (at least in my state) do not pay enough. And these are needed jobs. We must have teachers and law enforcement, but they can't make it on that alone. That goes for firefighters and cops, and I am sure many other professions.
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Nobody is ever paid enough. We get it.
The problem is that there are too many, by far, government employees
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Nobody is ever paid enough. We get it.
The problem is that there are too many, by far, government employees
Amen! And "public education" would be a great place to start dismantling the beast.
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Amen! And "public education" would be a great place to start dismantling the beast.
and an Amen to you too. The first thing to dump is the US Dept of Education, which educates noone. Let the states run their own schools before we move on to a system of private education.
Then we can start abolishing other parts of Fedzilla.
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how many ag. private sector employees does it take to pay the salary and benefits of a single avg. fed employee?
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Nobody is ever paid enough. We get it.
The problem is that there are too many, by far, government employees
You can mock us for saying that LEO's don't make enough money all you want....
But I've sold houses to City and County officers here....they are just a step above qualifying for food stamps if they don't have second jobs and their wives work.
LEO's donot make the same salaries in every county in the state, let alone the same across the country. Teachers don't either.
And while we at it....the biggest sector of government employees who don't make enough money ....is the military!!
And no....I don't thing you do "get it"...
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You can mock us for saying that LEO's don't make enough money all you want....
But I've sold houses to City and County officers here....they are just a step above qualifying for food stamps if they don't have second jobs and their wives work.
LEO's donot make the same salaries in every county in the state, let alone the same across the country. Teachers don't either.
And while we at it....the biggest sector of government employees who don't make enough money ....is the military!!
And no....I don't thing you do "get it"...
To be fair, they CHOSE those careers knowing full well what they may/may not get paid... Just like teachers, etc. But when you have a cop paying in $120K to their retirement, and pulling out almost $4M in pension and healthcare, something's admittedly way wrong.
I also know cops who are pulling down nearly 6-figures in MN...
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To be fair, they CHOSE those careers knowing full well what they may/may not get paid... Just like teachers, etc. But when you have a cop paying in $120K to their retirement, and pulling out almost $4M in pension and healthcare, something's admittedly way wrong.
I also know cops who are pulling down nearly 6-figures in MN...
I understand that they CHOOSE their career. I just think they should be paid more for the job they do.
http://books.mongabay.com/employment/TN/TN_Knoxville_33-3051.html
Overview
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Every year U.S. Department of Labor's Bureau of Labor Statistics releases employment and wage figures. This data was released in May 2006 and covers Wages & salaries for Police and sheriff's patrol officers in Knoxville, TN
Police and sheriff's patrol officers (Occupation [OCC] code: 33-3051) in Knoxville, TN (BLS Area code: 28940 ) earned an average wage of $16.06 per hour and an average annual salary of $33,400
The BLS estimates that in Knoxville, TN there were around 1,030 employed in the field of Police and sheriff's patrol officers.
Industry Comparison
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Industry comparison
Police and sheriff's patrol officers in Knoxville, TN earned 31% less than average for Police and sheriff's patrol officers in the United States.
Region/area/city comparison
Police and sheriff's patrol officers in Knoxville, TN earned 3% less than the average worker in Knoxville, TN.
State salary comparison
Police and sheriff's patrol officers in Knoxville, TN earned 13% less than the average worker in Tennessee.
National salary comparison
Police and sheriff's patrol officers in Knoxville, TN earned 15% less than the average worker in the United States.
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I understand that they CHOOSE their career. I just think they should be paid more for the job they do.
http://books.mongabay.com/employment/TN/TN_Knoxville_33-3051.html
Overview
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Every year U.S. Department of Labor's Bureau of Labor Statistics releases employment and wage figures. This data was released in May 2006 and covers Wages & salaries for Police and sheriff's patrol officers in Knoxville, TN
Police and sheriff's patrol officers (Occupation [OCC] code: 33-3051) in Knoxville, TN (BLS Area code: 28940 ) earned an average wage of $16.06 per hour and an average annual salary of $33,400
The BLS estimates that in Knoxville, TN there were around 1,030 employed in the field of Police and sheriff's patrol officers.
Industry Comparison
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Industry comparison
Police and sheriff's patrol officers in Knoxville, TN earned 31% less than average for Police and sheriff's patrol officers in the United States.
Region/area/city comparison
Police and sheriff's patrol officers in Knoxville, TN earned 3% less than the average worker in Knoxville, TN.
State salary comparison
Police and sheriff's patrol officers in Knoxville, TN earned 13% less than the average worker in Tennessee.
National salary comparison
Police and sheriff's patrol officers in Knoxville, TN earned 15% less than the average worker in the United States.
I don't have a problem with with LEO salaries, but the bloated bureaucracy of of state and federal governments are what need cut.
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I don't have a problem with with LEO salaries, but the bloated bureaucracy of of state and federal governments are what need cut.
I agree with you. Perhaps if there weren't so many employees in those jobs, you could get the same anwer from at least two people. ::)
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I understand that they CHOOSE their career. I just think they should be paid more for the job they do.
While working, I could agree. Pension/retirement, I disagree. I'm pretty aligned with Jason Lewis on this one - pay someone while they work. Don't pay them while they don't work.
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And while we at it....the biggest sector of government employees who don't make enough money ....is the military!!
Dang the government should announce a siezure of all bank accounts and 100% of private sector wealth immediately.
Of course, next year might be a problem.
BTW, what I said was, we have too MANY public employees. Many of them are unionized and refuse to fund their own retirements and medical insurance etc
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Teachers in NJ can make a bigger salary when they retire then when they're working, and the most annoying thing is this, when they retire? they move out of state because the cost of living and taxes are so high.
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To be fair, they CHOSE those careers knowing full well what they may/may not get paid... Just like teachers, etc. But when you have a cop paying in $120K to their retirement, and pulling out almost $4M in pension and healthcare, something's admittedly way wrong.
I also know cops who are pulling down nearly 6-figures in MN...
Just remember that is not the standard. My brother has 3 jobs, and I have never heard him complain about it either. And his cop work (while knowing what it paid before hand) is crucial to our safety, just as the military is (where they also know what they are getting into). As are teachers for our country. While some teachers make a lot, most don't. We still need them, and we should still applaud good teachers for getting into a field that pays crap so that our children can be better. Instead of focusing on "they knew", we should be paying the hard necessary jobs more. Especially the ones where you risk your life for the sake of others or teach our future. I know some states do this already, but not all. Not all by a long shot.
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Look, gang, I'm a public worker in NYS. The public employee unions have to give back on this next round of contracts. Are there too many of us in NYS? You betcha. Right now, there's two different retirement incentives out there to get rid of older workers. One of our offices (covers the west of NYS) is going to lose almost its' entire staff due to one of these. Will the slots be filled? Oh, I'm sure that the unions will clamor for that, but the current lame-duck governor won't do it (even as he continues to hire people, at over $100,000/yr, for his own staff), and we're pretty sure that his designated successor (Andy Cuomo) won't, either.
There is way too much waste and abuse in NYS--and a lot of it, to be fair, comes from NYS' habit of having outside contractors do a lot of work that could be done by State employees. But, a lot of it comes from, "It's not my job title, so you need to get someone else to do the job." So, I see both sides of the argument in NYS. The unions are too powerful, and the Dem-controlled State legislature is beholden to them. The point of "I've had it!" is a lot farther down the road than in the country at large. That is why you see stories on the Tea Party, in "newspapers" such as the New York Times, written with the slants that they are. People in NYC are absolutely clueless as to what the rest of the country thinks. (I'm also thinking that people in Albany are just as clueless as to what the rest of NYS thinks, too.)
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I agree with you. Perhaps if there weren't so many employees in those jobs, you could get the same anwer from at least two people. ::)
LOL your so right. Especially a problem with the IRS. I have been hassling with them about a problem for over 4 mths. Every time I call I get a different answer about my problem.
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Well, I guess we can see that the OP question is too simplistic. A public employee should not have to be working 3 jobs just to make ends meet, such as in TN. On the other hand, blue states are so out of control. The double and triple dipping in pensions (retire at age 45, take another govt job, collect 2 pensions), is outrageous. People are really starting to get resentful.
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Well, I guess we can see that the OP question is too simplistic. A public employee should not have to be working 3 jobs just to make ends meet, such as in TN. On the other hand, blue states are so out of control. The double and triple dipping in pensions (retire at age 45, take another govt job, collect 2 pensions), is outrageous. People are really starting to get resentful.
I don't understand this. In Tennessee, a state trooper makes 35-40 thousand a year. A teacher makes 40-50 thousand a year. The benefits are great. The cost of living in Tennessee is relatively low. Why the need for a third, fourth, or fifth job? Why can't these folks just live within their means?
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Well, I guess we can see that the OP question is too simplistic.
No - It's not too simplistic at all.
A public employee should not have to be working 3 jobs just to make ends meet, such as in TN.
Public employees, on average, now make MORE than their average private sector counter parts. Don't use the one example to make it the norm. That's NOT the case. And please again, consider the benefits and job security.
On the other hand, blue states are so out of control. The double and triple dipping in pensions (retire at age 45, take another govt job, collect 2 pensions), is outrageous. People are really starting to get resentful.
Starting?
Again, I have to ask... how many average private sector employees does it take to pay the salary of one average gov't employee??????
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how many average private sector employees does it take to pay the salary of one average gov't employee??????
And that is the Billion dollar question.
Too many forget it's OUR money.
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Why can't these folks just live within their means?
Good question and maybe if they would have had some encouragment and examples of that while they were a bit younger it would have crossed their minds. /s
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and an Amen to you too. The first thing to dump is the US Dept of Education, which educates noone. Let the states run their own schools before we move on to a system of private education.
Then we can start abolishing other parts of Fedzilla.
We've gotten too dependent on other people to educate our nation's children. The result is generations that don't know their own history and are propagandized instead of educated. I hear this complaint from parents all the time who send their children to liberal indoctrinations centers every single day of their lives. Just the other day I got a link from a facebook friend of a teacher who go flak because he had a bulletin board with the nation's motto, Declaration of Independence, etc. with the God references highlighted. Doesn't matter whether the individual believes but it does matter that the FOUNDERS did. Those divine rights are at the heart of our freedom and without something greater than government, government becomes a god and the people become it's slaves.
On FR the other day a woman was saying she no longer volunteered at her sons' GRADE school because she couldn't stand it (lack of discipline, disruptive, etc.) Yet, she was willing to send her children 6 hours a day, 5 days a week to a situation that was too chaotic for an adult. I asked her about that and she just said they were "thinking about" alternatives. Homeschooling was one of their options but was concerned because one son would love it and one would absolutely hate it (of course a grade school child has no idea whether they'd like it or not). I held my tongue but I wanted to say, "It doesn't matter what your children want, YOU'RE the parent and need to do what's best for them!"
It's a good thing most of these people didn't live during the founding or even the first 100 years or so. They would've had to homeschool. Things would definitely change if even a small percentage withdrew their kids from school. Monies schools receive are based on numbers. Granted, there's a lot to consider (loss of income, etc. though many homeschool moms have home-based businesses) but we're talking about the future of America here. Our children are precious gifts and once we have them parenting (which includes education) is our...and this is going to bug the crap out of some people...especially mothers most important responsibility. Okay, done with the soapbox rant.
Cindie
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And that is the Billion dollar question.
Too many forget it's OUR money.
And no one will answer... no one likes to think about it that way. Which is why most public employees get PISSED when I tell them they don't contribute to the tax base... "But I pay taxes, dammit!" Don't care - you don't contribute to the tax base... you get paid from the tax base.
22 MILLION gov't workers... with pensions. On average getting paid (fully loaded) more than private sector now.
We know that ~52% pay taxes.
We know there are 22 M gov't employees.
So how many people are REALLY keeping the country afloat? :thatsright:
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Look, gang, I'm a public worker in NYS. The public employee unions have to give back on this next round of contracts. Are there too many of us in NYS? You betcha. Right now, there's two different retirement incentives out there to get rid of older workers. One of our offices (covers the west of NYS) is going to lose almost its' entire staff due to one of these. Will the slots be filled? Oh, I'm sure that the unions will clamor for that, but the current lame-duck governor won't do it (even as he continues to hire people, at over $100,000/yr, for his own staff), and we're pretty sure that his designated successor (Andy Cuomo) won't, either.
There is way too much waste and abuse in NYS--and a lot of it, to be fair, comes from NYS' habit of having outside contractors do a lot of work that could be done by State employees. But, a lot of it comes from, "It's not my job title, so you need to get someone else to do the job." So, I see both sides of the argument in NYS. The unions are too powerful, and the Dem-controlled State legislature is beholden to them. The point of "I've had it!" is a lot farther down the road than in the country at large. That is why you see stories on the Tea Party, in "newspapers" such as the New York Times, written with the slants that they are. People in NYC are absolutely clueless as to what the rest of the country thinks. (I'm also thinking that people in Albany are just as clueless as to what the rest of NYS thinks, too.)
My cousin and his wife work for the city and they're in a union, and his wife's office are trying to get all the older people out. And yes, there's so much waste that goes on in NYC when it comes to unions.
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The Federal retirement system change from CSRS to FERS in the eighties was a beginning. Now it is time for similar reform at the state level. State pension plans in numerous states are currently UNSUSTAINABLE. Lots of people who have been promised a pony are not going to get one at some point in the future pretty much like what will happen if nothing is done to fix Social Security. There have been a few threads in either politics or economics addressing the underlying problems.
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And no one will answer... no one likes to think about it that way. Which is why most public employees get PISSED when I tell them they don't contribute to the tax base... "But I pay taxes, dammit!" Don't care - you don't contribute to the tax base... you get paid from the tax base.
22 MILLION gov't workers... with pensions. On average getting paid (fully loaded) more than private sector now.
We know that ~52% pay taxes.
We know there are 22 M gov't employees.
So how many people are REALLY keeping the country afloat? :thatsright:
Seems to me, it's mostly those that post here!
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I was a teacher (with an MA, making ~40K) and let me tell you, teachers deserve more than what they make.
While many of them are the lefty, nutty, moonbatty Pam Dawson type, it doesn't change the fact that most teachers spend hundreds of dollars a year of their OWN money to spend in the classroom. I know I was the one who supplied my students with kleenex and supplies for crafts, but I also had to get my own supplies for the overhead (including the light bulbs!), and often had to go and PAY to have copies made of the textbooks (because not only did I not have enough textbooks for my students, our copier spent about three months without paper or toner because our principal was 'trying to save money' while he renovated his office.) Our school was so bad that not even the teacher restrooms had soap or toilet paper, so we brought our own.
Keep in mind that when the gov't doles out money to school systems, that money never, ever gets to the students. Baltimore City spends an ungodly amount of money per student, but that money stays in the administrative offices and goes to line the pockets of the corrupt people who work for the school system. School administrators make around 80K...all for doing nothing. I have yet to meet a school administrator (in the public sector) who does anything but sit around and dictate rules from On High. If you want to find out where the REAL waste is in regard to public education, start with the Superintendent and the school administrators.
I won't lie, there are MANY problems with the teachers unions, one of which is the fact that schools still use tenure, which the unions support. And I agree, nobody forces ANYONE to be a teacher. But you all have to keep in mind that teachers work very long days, and many often work a summer job or a PT job during the school year just to make ends meet. The teachers union is not entirely bad. The only way to stop bleeding money in the schools is to restructure and reorganize how schools are run to cut the unnecessary fat from both the schools and the administrative offices...and to hire competent people with an actual work ethic to do the work.
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I was a teacher (with an MA, making ~40K) and let me tell you, teachers deserve more than what they make.
We disagree.
While many of them are the lefty, nutty, moonbatty Pam Dawson type, it doesn't change the fact that most teachers spend hundreds of dollars a year of their OWN money to spend in the classroom.
But see - that's a choice that they make. And while you mention it in your last statement, we still tend to forget that.
We also forget that people are getting paid a lot of money for what effectively is a part time job. Nine months a year, plus vacation, plus holidays, plus breaks... Their hourly wage is pretty good... and their benefits are (often) quite insane.
I work 12+ hours a day year round and weekends, so I don't feel sorry for anyone else who does the same.
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I was a teacher (with an MA, making ~40K) and let me tell you, teachers deserve more than what they make.
Knowing time and location would make a difference in the strength of your argument
While many of them are the lefty, nutty, moonbatty Pam Dawson type, it doesn't change the fact that most teachers spend hundreds of dollars a year of their OWN money to spend in the classroom. I know I was the one who supplied my students with kleenex and supplies for crafts, but I also had to get my own supplies for the overhead (including the light bulbs!), and often had to go and PAY to have copies made of the textbooks (because not only did I not have enough textbooks for my students, our copier spent about three months without paper or toner because our principal was 'trying to save money' while he renovated his office.) Our school was so bad that not even the teacher restrooms had soap or toilet paper, so we brought our own.
Where was the union steward, the ombudsman? Did you get to deduct these costs on your income tax? Did everyone bring their own soap and TP if not eeeewwwwwwe !!
Keep in mind that when the gov't doles out money to school systems, that money never, ever gets to the students. Baltimore City spends an ungodly amount of money per student, but that money stays in the administrative offices and goes to line the pockets of the corrupt people who work for the school system. School administrators make around 80K...all for doing nothing. I have yet to meet a school administrator (in the public sector) who does anything but sit around and dictate rules from On High. If you want to find out where the REAL waste is in regard to public education, start with the Superintendent and the school administrators.
I have no doubt schools are over administrated. If you stay a teacher you cap out so you become an administrator. One solution to the growing ranks would be merit pay. Take that up with your union steward.
I won't lie, there are MANY problems with the teachers unions, one of which is the fact that schools still use tenure, which the unions support. And I agree, nobody forces ANYONE to be a teacher. But you all have to keep in mind that teachers work very long days, and many often work a summer job or a PT job during the school year just to make ends meet. The teachers union is not entirely bad. The only way to stop bleeding money in the schools is to restructure and reorganize how schools are run to cut the unnecessary fat from both the schools and the administrative offices...and to hire competent people with an actual work ethic to do the work.
There are lots of changes which would result in lower cost and better education but until the unions are forced to accept change it isn't going to happen. Face it they have a strangle hold on things.
It is also time to put all public employees fully into the Social Security system just like the Fed did with its employees using the FERS program.
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I was a teacher in Baltimore City from 2004-2006.
The unions could do nothing about our soap and TP issue, as it was a problem in each and every school. And yes, you could deduct some of that money on your taxes, but many teachers spent more than the allotted amount (I believe it was only up to $300, but I will have to look that up) because the schools often lacked basic necessities-like textbooks and working copiers. (And no, my department took up a collection to provide TP and soap for the faculty restroom in our wing, but I usually provided my kids with 'emergency' TP aka Kleenex.)
I have no problem with merit pay, I think it would make it easier to keep the good teachers and get rid of the bad ones. Sadly, the unions will not go for it. Make no mistake, I am NO fan of unions! I think they do far more harm than good, and this particular example proves how they are hurting our schools.
The problem with schools goes far beyond teachers. It's easy enough to blame them, but most of them are honest, hardworking people who care about the kids they teach and want to see them succeed. The problem lies with the unions, the administrators, and the school systems. Yes, there are awful teachers who are union flunkies, but not all of them are. To paint them all with a broad brush is unfair to the good ones.
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I was a teacher in Baltimore City from 2004-2006.
The unions could do nothing about our soap and TP issue, as it was a problem in each and every school. And yes, you could deduct some of that money on your taxes, but many teachers spent more than the allotted amount (I believe it was only up to $300, but I will have to look that up) because the schools often lacked basic necessities-like textbooks and working copiers. (And no, my department took up a collection to provide TP and soap for the faculty restroom in our wing, but I usually provided my kids with 'emergency' TP aka Kleenex.)
I have no problem with merit pay, I think it would make it easier to keep the good teachers and get rid of the bad ones. Sadly, the unions will not go for it. Make no mistake, I am NO fan of unions! I think they do far more harm than good, and this particular example proves how they are hurting our schools.
The problem with schools goes far beyond teachers. It's easy enough to blame them, but most of them are honest, hardworking people who care about the kids they teach and want to see them succeed. The problem lies with the unions, the administrators, and the school systems. Yes, there are awful teachers who are union flunkies, but not all of them are. To paint them all with a broad brush is unfair to the good ones.
Even years ago, when my kids were in elementary school(they graduated in '97 and '00)....at the beginning of the school year, on the list of required school supplies were kleenex, hand soap, box of bandaids, bottle of hydrogen peroxide. Plus, parents were asked to donate supplies to the clinic (I ran the clinic for a couple of years) - as each school was responsible for funding their own clinic. We didn't have school nurses, it was all parent volunteers and we took Red Cross Advanced First Aid.
The school system just flat out didn't have the money for that kind of stuff for the individual schools. There were a few things that were paid for, restroom TP paper, paper towels and soap dispenser soap.
At the elementary school, the PTA did a couple of fund raisers a year, to get money for the school. We had them in order to buy playground equipment, to replace the swingsets that had been there for decades. The school system didn't buy it.
When my kids were young, there were two separate systems here....City and County. Around the time, my oldest was in middle school, the two combined to become K--- County Schools. Since then, funding has become more even, but parents still put a lot of extra monies into their kids schools.
Several real estate agents that I know, started out as teachers. They quit for a variety of reasons, but all have complained about how much or their own money they spent for their students. For supplies, different activities for their classrooms....lunch money! for their kids who either forgot their lunch money or didn't have it to begin with. I don't know how much they are given from the school board for their classrooms now, but it used to be very low, like about $100 a school year. While it may have changed over the years, I seriously doubt it is anywhere near what is needed for the individual classroom.
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The problem with schools goes far beyond teachers. It's easy enough to blame them, but most of them are honest, hardworking people who care about the kids they teach and want to see them succeed. The problem lies with the unions, the administrators, and the school systems. Yes, there are awful teachers who are union flunkies, but not all of them are. To paint them all with a broad brush is unfair to the good ones.
Ain't that the truth! I know a bunch of teachers who are good people, and aren't part of the problem. Hell, the daycare that my daughter is in is packed with kids of teachers.
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Since then, funding has become more even, but parents still put a lot of extra monies into their kids schools.
And that's the kicker! You think public education is supposed to be 'free' because it's taxpayer supported, but it's not even close. Parents are expected to shell out money for stuff for the classrooms, support PTA bake sales and stuff to raise money for new playground equipment, on top of paying the taxes that fund the schools.
The sad part is that no matter how much the governments increase funding to the schools, the money never, ever gets to where it's needed. Pay raises for teachers isn't the problem, it's a symptom of a larger illness. Yes, the teachers need compensation for their work, but keep in mind that schools receive hundreds of thousands of dollars a year (if not more) and that the majority of it ends up in the pockets of the people who least deserve it-the administrators.
I can tell you from first-hand experience about how school administrators abuse money. Our principal (who had been prosecuted in another state for not only bullying students but also bullying teachers) extensively renovated the administrative offices in the building while we had no soap or TP in bathrooms, no janitors to clean the classrooms, a rodent problem, no paper for our sporadically-working copiers, NO BOOKS IN OUR LIBRARY, serious mold problems, and a host of other issues (including many fire-code violations.) So while my kids sometimes sat two to a desk and often had no textbooks to use, this man was having catered lunches for his cronies, playing lots of golf, and having "meetings" with other administrators in fancy restaurants.
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And that's the kicker! You think public education is supposed to be 'free' because it's taxpayer supported, but it's not even close. Parents are expected to shell out money for stuff for the classrooms, support PTA bake sales and stuff to raise money for new playground equipment, on top of paying the taxes that fund the schools.
The sad part is that no matter how much the governments increase funding to the schools, the money never, ever gets to where it's needed. Pay raises for teachers isn't the problem, it's a symptom of a larger illness. Yes, the teachers need compensation for their work, but keep in mind that schools receive hundreds of thousands of dollars a year (if not more) and that the majority of it ends up in the pockets of the people who least deserve it-the administrators.
I can tell you from first-hand experience about how school administrators abuse money. Our principal (who had been prosecuted in another state for not only bullying students but also bullying teachers) extensively renovated the administrative offices in the building while we had no soap or TP in bathrooms, no janitors to clean the classrooms, a rodent problem, no paper for our sporadically-working copiers, NO BOOKS IN OUR LIBRARY, serious mold problems, and a host of other issues (including many fire-code violations.) So while my kids sometimes sat two to a desk and often had no textbooks to use, this man was having catered lunches for his cronies, playing lots of golf, and having "meetings" with other administrators in fancy restaurants.
And you exposed all of this to the public, right? All the teachers got together, kicked ass and took names, right? You had videos of this extravagance on all the local news channels, right?
What did the local PTA have to say? Everyone inundated the school board meetings in order to express their outrage, correct? You put your Mayor on the hot-seat until he/she investigated this waste, didn't you?
I've read all your complaints but nothing of what you and your fellow teachers, turned Real estate agents, tried to do about it. Sounds like you just quit and left the broken system as is.
Sorry, but you stated you made 40 grand a year. That's a helluva lot more than the average Joe with 2 or 3 kids in your school is making. Back when my kids were in school, we got a list at the beginning of every year on what we had to furnish for our kids. That's the way it ought to be, btw. At the time the wife and I both worked and rarely made more than 40 grand a year!
Oh, and they didn't teach my kids America was the lousiest place on the planet, or hand out condoms, or teach them Danny has 2 dads!
I have a hard time feeling sorry for teachers when in NYC, child molesters hang out in some office getting full pay and benefits because they cannot be fired! Washington DC spends more per student than any other district in memory, yet have continually had the worst education value for the buck! The union is a major factor when it comes to this. I forget where, but a district wanted to extend the school day 15 frikkin' minutes a day, teachers went ballistic and threatened to strike! Their gripe was they weren't going to get a pay raise for the extra 15 minutes!
From what I have heard and seen, teachers have it a lot better than most of the parents in their districts. The system has, over the years, turned into nothing more than a huge waste of taxpayer dollars! We need the Federal Government and the unions out of education!
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And you exposed all of this to the public, right? All the teachers got together, kicked ass and took names, right? You had videos of this extravagance on all the local news channels, right?
What did the local PTA have to say? Everyone inundated the school board meetings in order to express their outrage, correct? You put your Mayor on the hot-seat until he/she investigated this waste, didn't you?
I've read all your complaints but nothing of what you and your fellow teachers, turned Real estate agents, tried to do about it. Sounds like you just quit and left the broken system as is.
Being a young teacher, inexperienced with how things work, I didn't have any leverage to do anything...and you're right, the teachers could have done something but most of us were too beaten down to even think about it. I personally left not because of the kids, but because the principal singled out several teachers (myself being one of them) who had the gall to complain about how he was running his school. Of the teachers I had the pleasure of teaching with in my department, only four remain-the ones who never made waves or complained. Of the entire faculty, 75% of the ones I knew have left, and the turnover rate appears to be somewhere in the 3-5 year range.
Our PTA was nonexistent. I taught inner-city kids, I was lucky if I could get a parent to return a phone call. Most of them treated us like babysitters-as long as their kid was showing up most of the time, they didn't want to be bothered. Parents didn't care. And they didn't have money either...every single student I had qualified for free lunch. Almost all of them had afterschool jobs because they 1) came from mostly single family homes where 2) mom's salary couldn't pay all the bills.
It's easy to criticize teachers when you haven't been one. Everyone thinks it's an easy job, but it is harder than it looks.
The system has, over the years, turned into nothing more than a huge waste of taxpayer dollars! We need the Federal Government and the unions out of education!
That we can agree on.
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And you exposed all of this to the public, right? All the teachers got together, kicked ass and took names, right? You had videos of this extravagance on all the local news channels, right?
What did the local PTA have to say? Everyone inundated the school board meetings in order to express their outrage, correct? You put your Mayor on the hot-seat until he/she investigated this waste, didn't you?
I've read all your complaints but nothing of what you and your fellow teachers, turned Real estate agents, tried to do about it. I'm the one who mentioned the real estate agents that were teachers, not Vivi.Sounds like you just quit and left the broken system as is.
Sorry, but you stated you made 40 grand a year. That's a helluva lot more than the average Joe with 2 or 3 kids in your school is making. Back when my kids were in school, we got a list at the beginning of every year on what we had to furnish for our kids. That's the way it ought to be, btw. At the time the wife and I both worked and rarely made more than 40 grand a year!
Oh, and they didn't teach my kids America was the lousiest place on the planet, or hand out condoms, or teach them Danny has 2 dads!
I have a hard time feeling sorry for teachers when in NYC, child molesters hang out in some office getting full pay and benefits because they cannot be fired! Washington DC spends more per student than any other district in memory, yet have continually had the worst education value for the buck! The union is a major factor when it comes to this. I forget where, but a district wanted to extend the school day 15 frikkin' minutes a day, teachers went ballistic and threatened to strike! Their gripe was they weren't going to get a pay raise for the extra 15 minutes!
From what I have heard and seen, teachers have it a lot better than most of the parents in their districts. The system has, over the years, turned into nothing more than a huge waste of taxpayer dollars! We need the Federal Government and the unions out of education!
I think it's important to remember that we live all over the country and that the teacher situation is different in each state and may or may not vary from county to county or city to city. All we can do is reference what we each are familiar with.
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Being a young teacher, inexperienced with how things work, I didn't have any leverage to do anything...and you're right, the teachers could have done something but most of us were too beaten down to even think about it.
I understand completely, and also understand what you are sayin'. However, until we actually get a different frame of mind and understand it has to come from the ground up, we can't expect to make change!
I really didn't mean for it to sound so personal. I realize the hurdles you would have to overcome in order to even make any sort of den in the current system. That said, if you won't do it, who will? You were in the trenches. Many of the things you speak of are completely hidden from the parents who's kids go to your schools! I believe it is actually up to teachers like you in order to educate the public! How else are they going to know?
If you look at any videoed PTA meeting broadcast over the media, all we see is the liberal point of view!
We have to start somewhere, and I can't think of a better place than from the good teachers who are feeding our children's skulls full of mush! ( to coin a Rush phrase )
I think it's important to remember that we live all over the country and that the teacher situation is different in each state and may or may not vary from county to county or city to city. All we can do is reference what we each are familiar with.
You are correct in thinking there are different situations thru-out the country, but, we need to get the feds and the unions out of every classroom in America! That will only happen if we put the pressure on the Feds! Until we hold the unions responsible for the spending and the poor performance, we can't put a dent in reform!