The Conservative Cave
Current Events => General Discussion => Topic started by: thundley4 on June 02, 2010, 01:43:53 PM
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COLUMBUS: Ohio's highest court has ruled that a person may be convicted of speeding purely if it looked to a police officer that the motorist was going too fast.
The Ohio Supreme Court ruled Wednesday that an officer's visual estimation of speed is enough to support a conviction if the officer is trained, certified by a training academy, and experienced in watching for speeders. The court's 5-1 decision says independent verification of a driver's speed is not necessary.
The court upheld a lower court's ruling against a driver who challenged a speeding conviction that had been based on testimony from police officer in Copley, 25 miles south of Cleveland. The officer said it appeared to him that the man was driving too fast.
Ohio.com (http://www.ohio.com/news/break_news/95410314.html)
Too short to excerpt.
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That is INSANE.
Mark Steyn was right "Government by whim"
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On the Officer's behalf, there was a point in my life, when I was a Reserve Police Officer, that I could estimate someone's speed and be within 1 MPH of their actual speed as verified by RADAR. I made a game of it and got very good at it. HOWEVER, I wouldn't EVER issue a speeding ticket based on my estimate, it would be based on what the RADAR read. Those judges need their asses handed to them.
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Whelp, they're looking for a whole lot of tickets being tossed and a whole lot of court time being wasted.
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Whelp, they're looking for a whole lot of tickets being tossed and a whole lot of court time being wasted.
Why? The Ohio Supremes said it was legal.
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And what, pray tell, would the speeding ticket be written for?? I seriously doubt anyone could be exact in their estimation 100% of the time and if you could prove they were off .....
Lord that is a stupid ruling.
Can they arrest someone because they look like a rapist too?
KC
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That just sucks. I live in Ohio.
I'd challange the officer's estimate in court if I am pulled over and issued a ticket.
I'd ask the court to allow an independent verification of the officer's ability to accurately "estimate" speed.
Cops all over the state are going to start abusing this ruling.
I can see the citation now:
Officer estimates that driver was driving 68 mph in a 65 mph zone.
The full ruling can be viewed here (http://www.sconet.state.oh.us/rod/docs/pdf/0/2010/2010-Ohio-2420.pdf)
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Why? The Ohio Supremes said it was legal.
I could see something like this going to the Supreme Court. Seriously.
KC
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I could see something like this going to the Supreme Court. Seriously.
KC
Based on what?
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The states are just thinking up more ways to suck up more money from us. An estimate of 3 or 4 miles plus or minus seems like a large spread ( 6 to 8 mph). I would have asked the officer what was the highest speeds that were obtained at his schooling. 90, 120, 150, 190? At speeds over a 100, his expertise would fall flat.
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The states are just thinking up more ways to suck up more money from us. An estimate of 3 or 4 miles plus or minus seems like a large spread ( 6 to 8 mph). I would have asked the officer what was the highest speeds that were obtained at his schooling. 90, 120, 150, 190? At speeds over a 100, his expertise would fall flat.
yup.
IF you can't tell me - and prove it - how fast I was going, you can't tell me I was breaking any law.
Last I checked, innocent until PROVEN guilty was still written... somewhere..
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Based on what?
Speeding fines are typically based on the amount of miles per hour over the limit. How many speeding tickets are written in Ohio in one year? How many of them are over estimated by 2 or 3 miles per hour? What are they basing their conviction on? What if I look like I'm doing 58 in a 55 when I was in fact doing 55? Just wait ... someone will get smart and have their car inspected then strap a camera in it.
As I said above .... can they now arrest someone because they look like a rapist? This has huge implications.
Maybe I'm wrong, I'm not a lawyer.
KC
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Speeding fines are typically based on the amount of miles per hour over the limit. How many speeding tickets are written in Ohio in one year? How many of them are over estimated by 2 or 3 miles per hour? What are they basing their conviction on? What if I look like I'm doing 58 in a 55 when I was in fact doing 55? Just wait ... someone will get smart and have their car inspected then strap a camera in it.
As I said above .... can they now arrest someone because they look like a rapist? This has huge implications.
Maybe I'm wrong, I'm not a lawyer.
KC
I already carry GPS in my truck and a digital camera on my cell phone. It's no problem for me to snap a pic with a date stamp of the GPS screen before letting off on the accelerator to pull over, if the state-run extortion racket wants to play things this way.
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I already carry GPS in my truck and a digital camera on my cell phone. It's no problem for me to snap a pic with a date stamp of the GPS screen before letting off on the accelerator to pull over, if the state-run extortion racket wants to play things this way.
if I tried to do that...
I'd end up in a ditch
I'd get a ticket for "texting"...
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Speeding fines are typically based on the amount of miles per hour over the limit. How many speeding tickets are written in Ohio in one year? How many of them are over estimated by 2 or 3 miles per hour? What are they basing their conviction on? What if I look like I'm doing 58 in a 55 when I was in fact doing 55? Just wait ... someone will get smart and have their car inspected then strap a camera in it.
As I said above .... can they now arrest someone because they look like a rapist? This has huge implications.
Maybe I'm wrong, I'm not a lawyer.
KC
A friend of my Dads was driving from Maine to Fla. and was stopped for speeding.He had a bran new car and had the cruse controll engaged.
He asked the officer to follow him and when he got to the speed limit to blink his lights. Sure enough when the speedometer was 10 mph less then the limit the Officer put on his lights.
Fortunately the Officer had Dads friend follow him to a local dealership. When the Friend and wife arrived with the Officer in tow they were taken in right away. To insure the work after they all left the dealership they repeated the test and darn it still was off by 5 mph.
The couple had to spend the night in a motel but the Officer and wife gave them a tour of the local area and by the next day the dealership finally got things corrected.
Last I heard this was the beginning of a 20 year friendship and Dads friend and wife wrote letters of commendation to the Chief of Police.
We have that Radar to catch speeders but when the speedometer in the car is not checked----very expensive for the driver.
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Why? The Ohio Supremes said it was legal.
Yeah, who gives a shit about the Fourth Amendment, right? **** reasonable suspicion, rules of evidence, little shit like that.
This serves only to boost revenue, not serve the greater interests of justice or the rule of law.
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So, um... How did cops catch speeders before radar guns?
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So, um... How did cops catch speeders before radar guns?
Timing their travel between two known points and calculating their speed?
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Timing their travel between two known points and calculating their speed?
They STILL do that is some places and in particular, those pesky airplanes that radio the ground units. Pay attention to a couple of broad white stripes on the edge of the highway that are perpendicular to the direction of travel. They are usually an eighth mile apart or something.
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They STILL do that is some places and in particular, those pesky airplanes that radio the ground units. Pay attention to a couple of broad white stripes on the edge of the highway that are perpendicular to the direction of travel. They are usually an eighth mile apart or something.
I know. I remember going through Pennsylvania and seeing the warning signs along the interstates.
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I know. I remember going through Pennsylvania and seeing the warning signs along the interstates.
The warning signs are one thing. You know you are a screwed dude when you can see the mast mounted sight poking through the trees.
(http://forthokie.files.wordpress.com/2008/10/funny-picture-speed-limit-enforced-by-aircraft-apache-attack-helicopter.jpg)
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I know. I remember going through Pennsylvania and seeing the warning signs along the interstates.
There are plenty of places that still use aircraft. I-15 between Barstow and the Nevada state line is crawling with them, both SB County sheriffs and CHP. But herein lies the difference--they're MEASURING your speed against a known standard, not going by the "we THINK you're going fast"...they're actually proving it.
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Gotta love it, Moonbat law enforcement.
It made me feeeeel like he was speeding.
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I can't wait for this exchange in court:
Do you plead guilty or not guilty to speeding?
Not guilty, Your Honor. However, I'd like to charge the officer who cited me with murder.
MURDER? Are you serious?
Absolutely. I can tell just by looking.
And what EVIDENCE do you have that this officer committed any crime?
The same evidence he has against me, Your Honor--absolutely none.
Now while I fully expect the first person to try this will likely get slapped with a contempt citation, the point will be made. How far a stretch is it to charge a person with a traffic offense with no evidence to a capital crime with no evidence?
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I can't wait for this exchange in court:
Do you plead guilty or not guilty to speeding?
Not guilty, Your Honor. However, I'd like to charge the officer who cited me with murder.
MURDER? Are you serious?
Absolutely. I can tell just by looking.
And what EVIDENCE do you have that this officer committed any crime?
The same evidence he has against me, Your Honor--absolutely none.
Now while I fully expect the first person to try this will likely get slapped with a contempt citation, the point will be made. How far a stretch is it to charge a person with a traffic offense with no evidence to a capital crime with no evidence?
It'd be fun to watch!
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I'm reminded of the time the father of a high school buddy of mine was pulled over and cited by Bremerton PD for doing - no shit - 1,100 MPH in a 55 zone. Turned out the cop wasn't banking on this guy being able to talk to the Base Administration office at PSNS, find out which ship was doing radar testing at such and such a time on so and so date, and have a letter from the office of the Base Commander to that effect in hand when he walked into the courtroom.
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I'm reminded of the time the father of a high school buddy of mine was pulled over and cited by Bremerton PD for doing - no shit - 1,100 MPH in a 55 zone.
You would think the cop would have figured 1,100 MPH was a tad unrealistic
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On the Officer's behalf, there was a point in my life, when I was a Reserve Police Officer, that I could estimate someone's speed and be within 1 MPH of their actual speed as verified by RADAR. I made a game of it and got very good at it. HOWEVER, I wouldn't EVER issue a speeding ticket based on my estimate, it would be based on what the RADAR read. Those judges need their asses handed to them.
When I took High School Physics, our teacher had a couple of the county Sherrifs come out and show us the radar and everything. We also did a test to see how well they could judge speeds by the eye. Every car they hit with the radar they were within 1 mph.
I'm certified to judge distance without the use of any markers. Those calls are officially transmitted worldwide and are used for all air traffic. I don't see that big of a differance here.
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You would think the cop would have figured 1,100 MPH was a tad unrealistic
One would hope; but apparently the officer thought all he needed was to testify that this is what his radar gun reported to him. The state - sponsored extortion racket never much impressed me after that.
My understanding, is that in court, the judge actually asked the officer, "If he was doing 1,100 MPH, how the hell did YOU catch 'im?
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When I took High School Physics, our teacher had a couple of the county Sherrifs come out and show us the radar and everything. We also did a test to see how well they could judge speeds by the eye. Every car they hit with the radar they were within 1 mph.
I'm certified to judge distance without the use of any markers. Those calls are officially transmitted worldwide and are used for all air traffic. I don't see that big of a differance here.
That's all well and good, but until they come up with a calibration standard/ISO 9001 certification for the human eyeball, they better have something else to back it up.
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That's all well and good, but until they come up with a calibration standard/ISO 9001 certification for the human eyeball, they better have something else to back it up.
Agreed.
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When I took High School Physics, our teacher had a couple of the county Sherrifs come out and show us the radar and everything. We also did a test to see how well they could judge speeds by the eye. Every car they hit with the radar they were within 1 mph.
I'm certified to judge distance without the use of any markers. Those calls are officially transmitted worldwide and are used for all air traffic. I don't see that big of a differance here.
Without SOLID evidence, it's just a guess. That why weather people are often referred to as "Weather Guessers" Hell, even radar units have been beat in court. At a minimum, the radar or laser unit is pretty exact when calibrated properly. I would calibrate my radar unit at the beginning of every shift I ran speed control and sometimes a couple of times throughout the shift, depending on what was going on.
I find Def6s story a little far fetched because many radar units maxed out at 199 mph., especially the ones used on military installations.
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Without SOLID evidence, it's just a guess. That why weather people are often referred to as "Weather Guessers" Hell, even radar units have been beat in court. At a minimum, the radar or laser unit is pretty exact when calibrated properly. I would calibrate my radar unit at the beginning of every shift I ran speed control and sometimes a couple of times throughout the shift, depending on what was going on.
I find Def6s story a little far fetched because many radar units maxed out at 199 mph., especially the ones used on military installations.
Guesses that million/billion dollar decisions are made on.
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Guesses that million/billion dollar decisions are made on.
Such as?
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Guesses that million/billion dollar decisions are made on.
That's scary!! If I recall, the weather people, such as yourself, predicted good weather for Iranian hostage recuse attempt back in 1979. An UNPREDICTED sandstorm caused the deaths of quite a few people and a failed rescue attempt. The weather folks screwed the pooch on that one. So, yeah, keep making those guesses.......
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Such as?
Any time an aircraft takes off. How major operations are planned. Troop movements. Humanitarian efforts. Etc... It's all done off of our "guesses".
Hell, our "guesses" a few days ago allowed leadership at AMC to begin planning humanitarian efforts for Karachi which is about to get smashed by a super typhoon.
At a smaller scale, my "guess" at when a thunderstorm would strike Misawa Air Base gave the Wing Commander enough time to land his F-16 and taxi into a hanger 1 minute before lightning struck the airfield.
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That's scary!! If I recall, the weather people, such as yourself, predicted good weather for Iranian hostage recuse attempt back in 1979. An UNPREDICTED sandstorm caused the deaths of quite a few people and a failed rescue attempt. The weather folks screwed the pooch on that one. So, yeah, keep making those guesses.......
Thanks for just pissing all over me for something that happened 31 years ago. :whatever: It's not like we haven't gotten better at forecasting since then.
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Any time an aircraft takes off. How major operations are planned. Troop movements. Humanitarian efforts. Etc... It's all done off of our "guesses".
Hell, our "guesses" a few days ago allowed leadership at AMC to begin planning humanitarian efforts for Karachi which is about to get smashed by a super typhoon.
At a smaller scale, my "guess" at when a thunderstorm would strike Misawa Air Base gave the Wing Commander enough time to land his F-16 and taxi into a hanger 1 minute before lightning struck the airfield.
Uh huh. I guess that the F-16 isn't all that prone to lightening damge to begin with. They call it an all weather craft for a reason would be my guess.
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But what the hell DJ.
A guess is good enough for you.
Personally I don't want to pay a fine, have my insurance go up, or possibly even lose my job over somebodies "guess".
But maybe that is just me.
I'm sure you would have no problem with it if it were you being accussed right?
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Don't take it personally, Jonesy. I'm not really picking on YOU, I'm merely pointing out that guesses are as good as a mile. Let's not forget what weather was initially predicted for D-Day......... that didn't work out so well, either.
Back to the original topic, I would go to court on any speeding ticket issued by a guess. I still say that without PROOF, an officer's estimate, no matter how good they think they might be, should NOT be used as "evidence".
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Don't take it personally, Jonesy. I'm not really picking on YOU, I'm merely pointing out that guesses are as good as a mile. Let's not forget what weather was initially predicted for D-Day......... that didn't work out so well, either.
Back to the original topic, I would go to court on any speeding ticket issued by a guess. I still say that without PROOF, an officer's estimate, no matter how good they think they might be, should NOT be used as "evidence".
Well... for those driving in or through the state of Ohio, the Ohio Supreme Court has decided otherwise.
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Well... for those driving in or through the state of Ohio, the Ohio Supreme Court has decided otherwise.
and I STILL would say that their opinion is flawed.
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and I STILL would say that their opinion is flawed.
I agree with you.