The Conservative Cave
Current Events => The DUmpster => The DUmping Ground => Topic started by: thundley4 on May 16, 2010, 01:41:16 PM
-
Synicus Maximus (378 posts) Sun May-16-10 09:02 AM
Original message
Venezuela's Chavez orders takeover of iron-makers
Source: AP
President Hugo Chavez announced Saturday the expropriation of a group of iron, aluminum and transportation companies in Venezuela's mining region.
Among the expropriated companies is Materiales Siderurgicos, or Matesi, which is the Venezuelan subsidiary of Luxembourg-based steel maker Tenaris SA.
Venezuela's socialist president said in a televised that his government was going to take over Matesi because "we couldn't reach an amicable and reasonable settlement with the owners."
Chavez said production at the company has been paralyzed since midway through last year, when Venezuela's president announced plans to nationalize it.
Chavez said he was also going to expropriate Venezuelan-owned Orinoco Iron and aluminum-maker Norpro de Venezuela C.A., which is an affiliate of the U.S. company Norpro in association with France's Saint Gobain, among other companies.
Read more: http://www.businessweek.com/ap/financialnews/D9FNMNMO2....
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x4383498
protocol rv (1000+ posts) Sun May-16-10 09:36 AM
Response to Reply #1
3. You do realize that industry will be ruined
The iron and aluminum industries will be ruined, and national income will suffer. The companies involved will go into arbitration, and will win their awards. In the end, all you communists are accomplishing is destruction.
protocol rv is ordering his pizza in this thread.
bread_and_roses (1000+ posts) Sun May-16-10 11:08 AM
Response to Reply #3
19. ROFL, all those private companies doing such a great job, eh?
like BP, Halleburton, that exemplary coal mine company that recently killed a few workers - no great harm, right? plenty more where they came from! Oh, and those private US companies that have managed to keep workers' wages flat for about 30 years, such marvels of fairness and equity for workers!
It takes some hubris to be singing the marvels of private corps right about now.
How many millions has communism killed?
protocol rv (1000+ posts) Sun May-16-10 12:56 PM
Response to Reply #28
88. Well, most of us know you communists make a mess out of things
And if you think it's possible not to think of profits, then you got a serious learning lesson coming ahead for you.
Cleobulus (765 posts) Sun May-16-10 12:59 PM
Response to Reply #88
91. You do realize that the Cold War is over right?
I find it really difficult to take anyone who calls anyone who disagrees with them communists seriously. And you claim to be educated!
If you walk like a duck, etc.....
protocol rv (1000+ posts) Sun May-16-10 01:09 PM
Response to Reply #91
96. I am educated, and you are indeed communists
I don't use communism as an insult. I use it to describe a political-economic system which arises out of Marxist theory. Since the Chavistas have expressly declared themselves to be marxists, and are firmly allied with a declared Marxist such as Fidel Castro, then I think the best descriptor is indeed "communist". There's nothing wrong with the name, other than it is associated with dictatorship. I happen to be an atheist, but I also think the fictional character known as "Jesus of Nazareth" was a communist character, and I don't mean it as an insult.
Regarding the cold war, that was a conflict between the US and Soviet Empires, which the US Empire won. The Soviet Empire collapsed because its economy was communist, highly inefficient, and it could not withstand the shock of lower oil prices after 1986, the Chernobyl incident, and the cost of the war in Afghanistan, while devoting so much of its economy to manufacturing weapons in a race with a much wealthier competitor.
The collapse of the Soviet Union, however, did not mean the end of history, as my dear friend Francis Fukuyama claimed. The neocons were wrong, and there's a tendency in homo sapiens to re-create a balance. Chavism is part of the response to US imperialism, which in turn was driven to a peak by the US elites thinking they had won the end game, without realizing the game is eternal.
However, Chavism is like a pimple in the US empire's arse. There are bigger players in this game, China, Russia, the European Union, India, and possibly Brazil. Venezuela in all of this is just a pawn for the great players. So no, this internal issue within Venezuela isn't really part of the cold war, it's more of a domestic fight. The US couldn't care less about Venezuela's oil, production is down, and there are other sources to replace it. And Venezuela, as it is, while it is a pain in the behind for the empire, can be shown as a useful example for other Latin American nations to behave - the Venezuelan economy is collapsing, and I don't think we're going to see an IMF rescue. And the Chinese will lend money, but they are greedy, and they, like any other imperial power, will want to set their claws on Venezuela's flesh.
Cleobulus (765 posts) Sun May-16-10 01:13 PM
Response to Reply #96
97. Uhm, you have no ****ing clue, do you?
Edited on Sun May-16-10 01:13 PM by Cleobulus
Seriously, I already stated I'm not in Venezuela. Here we use terms like communist and socialist, or I should say our right wing uses them, as insults and scare tactics. They call Obama both, regularly.
And your point is?
protocol rv (1000+ posts) Sun May-16-10 12:59 PM
Response to Reply #42
92. I do not agree
Management is usually a lot worse in a public enterprise. BP indeed showed itself to be mismanaged, but it is paying the price in a much lower stock price. The market is darwinian, if the stock price drops a bit more, BP will cease to exist, because it will be purchased and dismembered by a larger predator.
In the case of a public corporation, the government protects the mismanaged assets, and doesn't allow them to fail - public corporations do not declare bankrupcy. So the end result is to see public companies, as a general rule, be managed a lot worse. And this is seen in Venezuela, where all of the assets taken over by the government are producing a lot less now than before their takeovers.
protocol rv (1000+ posts) Sun May-16-10 10:35 AM
Response to Reply #2
12. How cartoonish
Sometimes I wonder, do they teach anything in the US nowadays?
Look at the teachers on DU and you'll know the answer.
dotymed (1000+ posts) Sun May-16-10 09:47 AM
Response to Original message
4. I guess
I'll have to research this. Of course the AP article doesn't mention how Chavez plans to help the impoverished of his country through this action. So far, he has been pretty damned successful in improving those people lives. Of course to the wealthy corporatists this just proves what a tyrant he is. I see another coup attempt.
How can a person like this have the support of the majority? In America, the vast majority are impoverished. They would never allow companies to be expropriated so they could earn living wages. Hey, it's all supposed to be about profit at the expense of the expendable. Unregulated capitalism is to be worshiped. How else can we reach total feudalism?
:mental:
It's a big ol' bonfire.
-
He also took over coffee growers a couple years back and production has plunged to the point where they now have to import coffee.
Food shortages are now common. Fresh milk is almost impossible to find and powdered milk is even rationed. Prices have skyrocketed of course as the value of their Bolivars has fallen.
-
I'll have to research this. Of course the AP article doesn't mention how Chavez plans to help the impoverished of his country through this action. So far, he has been pretty damned successful in improving those people lives
This is non-sense to the highest order. How are peoples' lives improved? Do you realize the Caracas has one of the highest crime and murder rates on Earth right now? People are afraid of riding the bus (wary even in day time) and they are just as scared of the police as they are of criminals. Property rights have become meaningless, expropriation can come at a whim, their housing shortage is about a million units now.
For hours every day there is no power and for hours every day there is no water and food is rationed and expensive. The only way to find many things is to go to the black market.
-
I wish the DUmb****s would go LIVE in Venezuela if they love Chavez's communism so much. It would be a wake up call to them, not that they would last long because they would contribute nothing to the collective (since they think communism means freebies from the government) and would be sent to forced labor camps to extract what little value they have to the collective before malnourishment and starvation get to them.
-
This bunch would never survive in Hugos country..
-
This bunch would never survive in Hugos country..
I'm thinking they'd end up in a rendering plant and the remains used as fertilizer.
-
I wish the DUmb****s would go be sent to forced labor camps to extract what little value they have to the collective before malnourishment and starvation get to them.
Hard work 12 hours a day for bowls of rice and beans and a cot for the night will be where it ends up if it lasts long enough. The DUmmies have no idea whats going on in Venezuela, they just hear a few things here and there and if it sounds good tho them they post it, if not then its just propaganda. Idiotic is no way to go through life.
-
This bunch would never survive in Hugos country..
And? :-)
-
I would highly recommend reading that entire thread. This protocol rv person is handing them their asses over the realities of nationalization. Even eferrari has been reduced to a couple of drive-by snarks. She doesn't want a piece of it. :rotf:
-
I would highly recommend reading that entire thread. This protocol rv person is handing them their asses over the realities of nationalization. Even eferrari has been reduced to a couple of drive-by snarks. She doesn't want a piece of it. :rotf:
I still think protocol rv will get a pizza for their efforts to educate the DUmmies. They have to be hitting the alert button on every one of his posts.
-
prv is trying to educate them but reality can't penetrate 4 inch thick schools to reach the 4 ounce brains.
-
Nationalizing the aluminum industry, in a country where the electrical power is already a sometime thing for anyone but the Party officials...oh, this is going to be fun to watch...
:evillaugh:
-
Nationalizing the aluminum industry, in a country where the electrical power is already a sometime thing for anyone but the Party officials...oh, this is going to be fun to watch...
:evillaugh:
Just imagine the hazards of running blast furnaces when the electricity goes out. :evillaugh:
-
One of the Venezuelan bloggers I read had a power outage last night, unscheduled, but had enough battery power to post an article on his thoughts.
-
Just imagine the hazards of running blast furnaces when the electricity goes out. :evillaugh:
I can't remember specifics, but I know that it's bad. Clue me in?
-
I can't remember specifics, but I know that it's bad. Clue me in?
Don't ask me. I was trying to imagine it, but it can't be good. I would guess most US factories would have backup generators, but Venezuela?
-
protocol rv is a hoot, Doty so got pwned on this response:
Doty:: He doesn't have the support of the majority
The polls taken since late las year show he no longer has majority support. The nationalized companies do not raise worker pay, what is seen is a change in ownership and deteriorating conditions for the workers - usually seen as spotty payments, and less safe operations. Also, since the business is under new management, and the management is designated by politicians, they tend not to perform well, so the business runs down and produces less. Finally there's the issue of compensation for the nationalized asset, the owners usually go to arbitration, and the government owes billions of US dollars in compensation it hasn't paid. Eventually, international courts will award damages to the ex-owners, and those ex-owners will take over Venezuela owned properties outside of Venezuela. Citgo, for example, is likely to fall into ExxonMobil's hands in a couple of years.
-
I would highly recommend reading that entire thread. This protocol rv person is handing them their asses over the realities of nationalization. Even eferrari has been reduced to a couple of drive-by snarks. She doesn't want a piece of it. :rotf:
I saw that. I sense a Pizza in Protocol RV's future.
-
Oh! cowman has a good comment :lmao: he sounds like me when I argue wealth redistribution with libs, except I don't swear.
cowman (1000+ posts) Sun May-16-10 12:09 PM
Response to Reply #54
60. You know
a poor man never gave me a job or paid my wages and I suspect that a poor man has never given you a job. What do you have against getting rich? I make a very good wage because I worked hard for it and now in Sept. I will be rewarded for it with a very nice retirement package that me and my wife can live very comfortably for the rest of our lives? Do you have a problem with that? Most rich people worked hard for their money, granted, their are crooks, but for the most part, the rich are rich because they worked hard and people like you want to take their money away and give it to the poor which is absolutely bull****.
-
:lmao:
protocol rv (1000+ posts) Sun May-16-10 12:32 PM
Response to Reply #64
76. Tell them all about it
I'm sure you can set the record straight, and tell them all about the glories of communism, and what it achieved in the Soviet Union and Cuba.
-
Oh! cowman has a good comment :lmao: he sounds like me when I argue wealth redistribution with libs, except I don't swear.
Cowman is going to have a couple of them to have cows. I wonder if Cowman could be induced to come over here . . .
-
I can't remember specifics, but I know that it's bad. Clue me in?
I suspect their furnaces are older gas fired monsters, so they would continue to operate - However, if there was a pot of metal in transport, that could be all sorts of fun. Imagine walking along with a ladle full of water, then coming to a sudden stop. Now replace the water with molten metal, and the ladle with something the size and shape of a dumpster hung from a bunch of chains connected to an electrically motorized cart on a track by the ceiling. Good Times, Good Times..
-
Cowman is going to have a couple of them to have cows. I wonder if Cowman could be induced to come over here . . .
LOL, he sounds like he'd be a good fit. I can't do a search over at DU, I guess because I don't donate, but I have to wonder what views of his are regressive (I refuse to say progressive because to me progress is a good thing).
-
(I refuse to say progressive because to me progress is a good thing).
I always try to say leftist rather than liberal and I use socialist instead of progressive... most of the time at any rate.
-
I always try to say leftist rather than liberal and I use socialist instead of progressive... most of the time at any rate.
For people supposedly so proud of their ideology they sure have a lot of names instead of calling it what it really is.
-
I always try to say leftist rather than liberal and I use socialist instead of progressive... most of the time at any rate.
I too prefer to call them leftist. Liberal originally meant free and free is what the left does NOT want us to be.
-
I too prefer to call them leftist. Liberal originally meant free and free is what the left does NOT want us to be.
on the money!
-
I love that the smartest people in the world fall for the old communist line about caring for the working class. The book animal farm should be required reading with special attention payed to the character boxer. The horse that gave his all the the farm, then the pigs rewarded him for all his hard work by sending him to the glue factory.
-
I just started reading the bonfire. It's still there, no pizza. I have to run now, but I brought 2 quotes I liked.
protocol rv (1000+ posts) Mon May-17-10 08:35 AM
Response to Reply #181
196. Nationalization has led to worst debacles
Ooverall, the record for nationalization is a lot worse. Think of the Soviet Union, where everything was nationalized. I don't think you will find many Russians who want to return to that sordid, ugly past called communism. You see, I observe a lot of cognitive dissonance in the pro-communists who proliferate in this website. This means the inability to process information which doesn't fit a preconceived notion.
ding! ding! ding! We have a winner!
protocol rv (1000+ posts) Sun May-16-10 12:55 PM
Response to Reply #27
86. That's not true either
You are using the wrong information. (etc. etc. long paragraph....)
You see, I am from Venezuela, so you can't sell that baloney to me.
protocol rv (1000+ posts) Sun May-16-10 10:33 AM
Response to Reply #7
11. They were rightful owners
They didn't acquire their claim from uber capitalists. They invested their cash. I see there are some very interesting romantic notions, but a lot of the money being invested by these "uber capitalists" is raised by selling stock, which is rolled into mutual funds, which sell their shares to the retirement funds for organizations such as CALPERS and the various school districts in the USA. So the "capitalist owners", in many cases, are the little guys in the USA and Europe putting their hopes on a steady retirement check. And your dear communists are trying to steal their rights to a decent retirement, you may say. So you see, it's not as clean and romantic as you think.
A painful truth. Glad somebody said it!
Here's sample of a brilliant post by Beth:
EFerrari (1000+ posts) Sun May-16-10 12:09 PM
Response to Reply #36
61. In opposition to your own fact filled thoughtful posts?
LOL
Whatever that means. LOL. Dumb.
and
EFerrari (1000+ posts) Mon May-17-10 08:38 AM
Response to Reply #142
198. No, that's not true. That's a myth promulgated by the American right wing
that was started by Ronald Reagan.
The DUmp ordering system makes it perfectly clear as mud, what the hell she's talking about.
and
EFerrari (1000+ posts) Sun May-16-10 12:11 PM
Response to Reply #29
64. Ignorance sucks harder. n/t
That's the extent of Beth's contribution, and nobody ever replied to her posts.
Union Yes (1000+ posts) Sun May-16-10 10:42 AM
Response to Original message
14. Viva La Chavez!
protocol rv (1000+ posts) Sun May-16-10 11:11 AM
Response to Reply #14
22. Learn Spanish
You just insulted the man.
:lmao: idiot.
You know what? Hannah Bell never showed up! Did she get hit by a beer truck?
I highly recommend rowing over and reading.
-
Why would protocol rv leave the wondrful workers paradice of Venezuela? [DUmmie/?]
-
I guess he had to go back after his education. He's actively looking for a visa to get the hell out.
-
22. Learn Spanish
You just insulted the man.
:rotf: :rotf: :rotf:
-
I can't remember specifics, but I know that it's bad. Clue me in?
Just a plain old actual blast furnace, for making pig iron from ore, coke, and limestone flux would still work, though all the ancillary machinery like the tip to load it is electric. I was really referring to the aluminum industry, which is totally dependent on large and reliable quantities of electrical power to work at all.
Making actual steel out of the the pig iron from an old school blast furnace also pretty much demands lots of reliable electrical power, from the melting furnaces and related processes like air compression to the materials handling and forming machinery to handle and roll the ingots into plates, sheets, rod or bar stock, and what have you.
-
I was thinking about how hard it would be to rebuild civilization after the collapse.... something as simple as aluminum foil would be very hard to remake.
-
Just a plain old actual blast furnace, for making pig iron from ore, coke, and limestone flux would still work, though all the ancillary machinery like the tip to load it is electric. I was really referring to the aluminum industry, which is totally dependent on large and reliable quantities of electrical power to work at all.
Making actual steel out of the the pig iron from an old school blast furnace also pretty much demands lots of reliable electrical power, from the melting furnaces and related processes like air compression to the materials handling and forming machinery to handle and roll the ingots into plates, sheets, rod or bar stock, and what have you.
So, then, if the electrical power was interrupted, as miskie said, it could be . . . a "hot time in Caracas" for all involved.
-
Another socialist success story!!!!!111111!!!!eleventy
-
I once worked in the synthetic fibers industry....certain types rely on a constant electric supply for heat and pressure. If the lights blinked, we sometimes had 3 to 4 hours worth of bad product to throw away after that blink.
Mod. to add....At the rate Venezuela is going with all the "progressivism", they will soon be at the point of ginning, carding, spinning and weaving cotton by hand.
-
I think we can expect a huge production drop in Venezuela
-
I was thinking about how hard it would be to rebuild civilization after the collapse.... something as simple as aluminum foil would be very hard to remake.
At least one communist dictator sought to deliberately destroy industry, and by extension technological civilization in his country. Pol Pot had all of Cambodia's cities evacuated and forced everyone onto collective farms.
http://econfaculty.gmu.edu/bcaplan/museum/cook.htm
-
Why on earth is any body still in this country?
-
Why on earth is any body still in this country?
If you can approval to travel you may only convert up to $10,000 worth of Bolivars for your trip. Assuming that is also approved by government.
So, if you have money, doubtful unless its in a Swiss account or something because of heavy inflation you won't be allowed to take it with you.
-
Why on earth is any body still in this country?
This is the true beauty of Socialism at work: Chavez controls the passports and the means (Or at least infrastructure) they would have to use to GTFO. Like the old East Germany, for instance, where it was a crime to try to get out, especially enforced against anyone with productive potential or professional skills, because the State had invested in your education and training, so it was a theft of that investment to try and flee to someplace sane.
And yep, BSS, not only hot, but having a smelting or alloying melt run fail big-time in progress can not only ruin the batch at huge cost, if it fails thoroughly enough, it can ruin the entire plant. Think like a cement truck that doesn't get rid of its load in time and ends up with a drum full of one giant rock, and then extrapolate that to a cement slurry pumper and a pipeline full of product...then imagine it's semi-purified molten metal that changes dimension as it goes above or below its melting point inside a ceramic shell instead of a slurry pipe.
-
Rank amatuers refining and smelting ore with crude means and methods...how'd that work out during The Great Leap Forward again?
-
At least one communist dictator sought to deliberately destroy industry, and by extension technological civilization in his country. Pol Pot had all of Cambodia's cities evacuated and forced everyone onto collective farms.
http://econfaculty.gmu.edu/bcaplan/museum/cook.htm
I'd say at least two. Does nobody remember Ethipoian dictator Mengistu?? Maybe you call the 1980's cause of the starving people of Ethipoia? Mengistu was the cause.
-
Is this because he saw Iron Man 2 and is very afraid?
-
Hard work 12 hours a day for bowls of rice and beans and a cot for the night will be where it ends up if it lasts long enough. The DUmmies have no idea whats going what will go on in Venezuela USA circa 2017, they just hear a few things here and there and if it sounds good tho them they post it, if not then its just propaganda. Idiotic is no way to go through life.
fixed it for you.
-
lol
-
Poor stupid Beth reminds me of a French exchange student at my high school back in the day. She claimed in no uncertain terms that the correct way to spell the word 'you' was 'U' because she read it on the back of a Prince album. This was many years before texting introduced shortcuts for words.
Don't take a citizen's word for it Beth - just keep fantasizing about a wonderful world under dear leader Chavez.
-
Nationalizing the aluminum industry, in a country where the electrical power is already a sometime thing for anyone but the Party officials...oh, this is going to be fun to watch...
:evillaugh:
Any of is that's done a 12 month stint in Iraq knows how well that worked for them.
-
Rank amatuers refining and smelting ore with crude means and methods
That reminds me of the mental picture I get whenever Hannah Bell says "sign the means of production over to me." I spent a lot of my career in paper mills. I get a picture of Hannah being handed over a mill, where I can picture her:
1) Falling into a vat of caustic soda
2) Falling into a pulper
3) Falling into a debarker
and any number of terrible things that can happen when you turn the means of production over to "the people." Well, that's enough fun for now.
-
dotymed (1000+ posts) Sun May-16-10 09:47 AM
Response to Original message
4. I guess
I'll have to research this. Of course the AP article doesn't mention how Chavez plans to help the impoverished of his country through this action.
Well, the impoverished will at least get to know they aren't suffering alone when all those ironworks' employees join them in miserable poverty. I suppose that could be viewed as help, from a democrat's viewpoint.
-
That reminds me of the mental picture I get whenever Hannah Bell says "sign the means of production over to me." I spent a lot of my career in paper mills. I get a picture of Hannah being handed over a mill, where I can picture her:
1) Falling into a vat of caustic soda
2) Falling into a pulper
3) Falling into a debarker
and any number of terrible things that can happen when you turn the means of production over to "the people." Well, that's enough fun for now.
Sounds like a DU "Workers' cooperative" running a paper mill has almost-unbounded amusement potential! Hell, with good security cameras (Have to contract those out to a real company to keep them running, I suppose...) it could provide endless footage for TrueTV, FoxReality, or Spike to run a series like "America's Funniest Fatal Industrial Accidents."
:evillaugh:
-
That reminds me of the mental picture I get whenever Hannah Bell says "sign the means of production over to me." I spent a lot of my career in paper mills. I get a picture of Hannah being handed over a mill, where I can picture her:
1) Falling into a vat of caustic soda
2) Falling into a pulper
3) Falling into a debarker
and any number of terrible things that can happen when you turn the means of production over to "the people." Well, that's enough fun for now.
And what if this "falling" were--how shall we say it?--externally initiated?
-
And what if this "falling" were--how shall we say it?--externally initiated?
I might be willing to volunteer Mr. Bunny :innocent:
-
Don't take a citizen's word for it Beth - just keep fantasizing about a wonderful world under dear leader Chavez.
Well, to be honest, she's probably not fantasizing about the world under Chavez, just one particular person.