The Conservative Cave
Current Events => General Discussion => Topic started by: lastparker on March 13, 2008, 12:41:59 PM
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That's what I wish someone would do to Dr. Laura Schlessinger. She's gone from condemning women who have spawned a child or two and have the nerve to work to help support them (yeah, I know I'm a horrible selfish bitch because I don't want to move my kids to the ghetto), to condemning us ALL.
The hell fires won't be hot enough.
Dr. Laura: Women share blame for cheating men
Syndicated radio talk show host stirs controversy with remarks about wives
By Mike Celizic
TODAYShow.com contributor
updated 11:37 a.m. ET, Tues., March. 11, 2008
Dr. Laura Schlessinger has never been one to shrink from controversy, and she leaped headlong into one on Monday when she said that if a husband cheats, his wife may share some of the blame.
“When the wife does not focus in on the needs and the feelings, sexually, personally, to make him feel like a man, to make him feel like a success, to make him feel like her hero, he’s very susceptible to the charm of some other woman making him feel what he needs,†the popular psychologist and radio personality said.
more at link: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/23575221/ (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/23575221/)
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“When the wife does not focus in on the needs and the feelings, sexually, personally, to make him feel like a man, to make him feel like a success, to make him feel like her hero, he’s very susceptible to the charm of some other woman making him feel what he needs,†the popular psychologist and radio personality said.
(http://www.codemonkeyramblings.com/files/ATT4952161.jpg)
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She is right in SOME instances. Not all, but definitely some. My father has a history of cheating. It led to the divorce of my parents. It led to the divorce of his second wife. And it very nearly broke up the relationship of his current fiance.
Everytime he did it though, it was because distance grew between them, and he needed to find elsewhere what he couldn't find at home. It doesn't completely excuse his actions, but had they not "pulled" away from him, he never would have felt the need to find companionship elsewhere.
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ALL three wives "pulled away"? Not to offend - I don't know your father - but don't you see a pattern?
More often than not, when a wife "pulls away" sexually, it isn't because she's unhappy with the thread count of the sheets..... it's because of deeper, emotional needs that aren't being met by the husband.
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ALL three wives "pulled away"? Not to offend - I don't know your father - but don't you see a pattern?
More often than not, when a wife "pulls away" sexually, it isn't because she's unhappy with the thread count of the sheets..... it's because of deeper, emotional needs that aren't being met by the husband.
I'm speaking in terms of more then just sexuality.
And I could spend several days typing out what happened with the relationships, and not cover the whole story. So in the effort of keeping it brief, just take my word when I say that in all 3 situations, the women DID hold a share of blame for what occured.
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She's more right than wrong.
Kids should be brought up by their parents, not strangers and/or warehouses. The 2 income household requirement is more myth than not.
I don't think pushing a spouse into someone else's arms is unique to women, but men and women bring different things into the relationship.
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I'm stunned that two of my three responses are pro-Dr. Laura. Really.
I guess I'll quit my job, undo my tubal ligation so I can get pregnant again and give away all my shoes. The kitchen, I have.
And one other point:
Kids should be brought up by their parents, not strangers and/or warehouses.
You mean PARENT, because unless you're both on welfare, ONE of you is working. And my guess is you don't mean Dad.
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She's more right than wrong.
I think she's half right in this instance.
“When the wife does not focus in on the needs and the feelings, sexually, personally, to make him feel like a man, to make him feel like a success, to make him feel like her hero, he’s very susceptible to the charm of some other woman making him feel what he needs,†the popular psychologist and radio personality said.
Women have needs as well, and the meeting of the needs by each other keeps the relationship alive. Things start going downhill when needs are not met, causes the recipient to not want to meet needs, and downward it spirals. Who's to say who's at fault in the Spitzer's relationship. Still not an excuse to cheat, but it happens - both men and women cheat.
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I'm stunned that two of my three responses are pro-Dr. Laura. Really.
I guess I'll quit my job, undo my tubal ligation so I can get pregnant again and give away all my shoes. The kitchen, I have.
And one other point:
Kids should be brought up by their parents, not strangers and/or warehouses.
You mean PARENT, because unless you're both on welfare, ONE of you is working. And my guess is you don't mean Dad.
A working parent does not mean they don't or shouldn't get a hand in raising their child, and I honestly hope you don't think like that.
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I'm stunned that two of my three responses are pro-Dr. Laura. Really.
I guess I'll quit my job, undo my tubal ligation so I can get pregnant again and give away all my shoes. The kitchen, I have.
And one other point:
Kids should be brought up by their parents, not strangers and/or warehouses.
You mean PARENT, because unless you're both on welfare, ONE of you is working. And my guess is you don't mean Dad.
Early development requires the mother figure. Later it doesn't matter as much.
I didn't make biology -- it just is.
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She's more right than wrong.
I think she's half right in this instance.
“When the wife does not focus in on the needs and the feelings, sexually, personally, to make him feel like a man, to make him feel like a success, to make him feel like her hero, he’s very susceptible to the charm of some other woman making him feel what he needs,†the popular psychologist and radio personality said.
Women have needs as well, and the meeting of the needs by each other keeps the relationship alive. Things start going downhill when needs are not met, causes the recipient to not want to meet needs, and downward it spirals. Who's to say who's at fault in the Spitzer's relationship. Still not an excuse to cheat, but it happens - both men and women cheat.
Ditto. Takes two to make a marriage work. That's not to say that fault is always equally distributed because if one partner is determined to step outside of the marriage, they will. It won't matter how much the other partner does. Almost always, when someone strays, there are deep seated problems in the marriage that need to be addressed. I say "almost always" because there are some folks who will step out on their spouse no matter what. These people should never take vows but I digress....my point is that you do have to look inward and both be willing to ask some tough questions and be willing to repair the relationship.
I do think Dr. Laura is right with regards to how much the Feminist movement has killed the traditional family. Men and women are wired differently and have different needs and desires when it comes to the opposite sex. I personally think that men are very visual creatures and that if a wife has become cold and distant, he will be more prone to let his eyes wander. Sorry, if that puts me in the corner. I believe that no matter how "equal" we women think we are, we're still inherently different when it comes to matters of the heart and sex.
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I personally think that men are very visual creatures and that if a wife has become cold and distant, he will be more prone to let his eyes wander.
I'm sorry honey, did you say something? :bolt:
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I personally think that men are very visual creatures and that if a wife has become cold and distant, he will be more prone to let his eyes wander.
I'm sorry honey, did you say something? :bolt:
TEE HEE!!!!
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You mean PARENT, because unless you're both on welfare, ONE of you is working. And my guess is you don't mean Dad.
THIS has been a REAL hot button with me, personally, as of late.
The bottom line is that the spouse who makes the money is really the one who holds the "power" in the relationship. And, it is also why there are MANY women who stay in unhappy marriages, which is not a good environment for children to be brought up in.
Jones, your father is a serial cheater who needs some deep psychological therapy, period. His wives taking their share of the blame is just as sorry as someone saying, "But, I drove him to drink", because the problem is that the alcoholic is well, an alcoholic, not the person in his life.
It's the same thing for a man/woman who cheats on their spouse, regardless of the fact that men are more "visual" or not. If something is missing in his marriage, then it is up to HIM to try to resolve that with his wife and take the responsibility to do so. Saying that the wife shares some of the blame is a copout, period.
On that note, I agree with Parker that Dr. Laura is full of shit on this subject. With her logic, any criminal could rationalize and justify his way out of it. Wrongdoing is wrongdoing, and it is NOBODY'S fault except their own.
And Freedumb, your argument for women staying home to raise the children is weak where schooling is concerned, because when these kids go to school, they are there for 8 hours of the day, the same amount of time that most are in a daycare. That is unless you genuinely feel that the wife/mother/parent is also a teacher and homeschools her X amount of children.
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(http://www.codemonkeyramblings.com/files/ATT4952161.jpg)
Wha? Is there something wrong with this? Looks okay to me. :bolt:
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Wha? Is there something wrong with this? Looks okay to me. :bolt:
Isn't it OBVIOUS? Look at the picture! She's still in her apron, cooking! Dinner should be READY, warming in the oven! And the kids are pawing through his briefcase, making a mess! She should have arranged for the neighbor's teenaged daughter to be playing quietly in the yard with the kids so she could be waiting in bed, with her legs back behind her head. Silly Carlos.
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1. I think if someone cheats instead of just getting divorced that they are a piece of crap. No one deserves to be cheated on. If you can't get any love or affection at home get divorced and leave. Don't drag your family through that kind of nastiness.
2. I think kids should be raised by their moms and dads too. However I do understand situations when people have to work. I am very blessed to not have to work right now, but we sacrifice a lot so I can stay home. That being said I know stay at home moms that are total pieces of crap and should have never had kids and I know working moms who are super moms and make me feel like I should call CPS on myself.
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Wha? Is there something wrong with this? Looks okay to me. :bolt:
Isn't it OBVIOUS? Look at the picture! She's still in her apron, cooking! Dinner should be READY, warming in the oven! And the kids are pawing through his briefcase, making a mess! She should have arranged for the neighbor's teenaged daughter to be playing quietly in the yard with the kids so she could be waiting in bed, with her legs back behind her head. Silly Carlos.
:rotf: touche!
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Dr Laura never hesitates to tell a wife to leave a cheating spouse.
But conversely she has asked wives that refuse to have sex with their husbands: do you want him to divorce you, masturbate or get a girlfriend?
I see no harm in asking why a spouse refusing sex is no longer entitled to expectations of fidelity. Getting married does not entitle a person to compel another person into abstinence; and it is more than just abstinence as years of rejection amount to little more than cruelty, control and emotional abuse.
Don't believe me? Have your husband reject you night after night;, year after year and see how your self-image looks. You'll be depressed wondering if you aren't attractive, if your love making skills are inadequate, are you a bad person. Then, in the middle of all this, have someone start complimenting you on how nice you look, laughing at your jokes, etc.
Go ahead try it for a decade.
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Dr Laura never hesitates to tell a wife to leave a cheating spouse.
But conversely she has asked wives that refuse to have sex with their husbands: do you want him to divorce you, masturbate or get a girlfriend?
I see no harm in asking why a spouse refusing sex is no longer entitled to expectations of fidelity. Getting married does not entitle a person to compel another person into abstinence; and it is more than just abstinence as years of rejection amount to little more than cruelty, control and emotional abuse.
Don't believe me? Have your husband reject you night after night;, year after year and see how your self-image looks. You'll be depressed wondering if you aren't attractive, if your love making skills are inadequate, are you a bad person. Then, in the middle of all this, have someone start complimenting you on how nice you look, laughing at your jokes, etc.
Go ahead try it for a decade.
Thank you! You expanded on what I was trying to say earlier.
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1. I think if someone cheats instead of just getting divorced that they are a piece of crap. No one deserves to be cheated on. If you can't get any love or affection at home get divorced and leave. Don't drag your family through that kind of nastiness.
Why not lay the blame at the feet of the sex-refusing spouse? After all, it is just as easy--and more appropriate--to say: if you will not remain true to your vows than you should seek relief from those vows, i.e. making yourself the sole object of your spouse's sexual attentions. Infidelity come in more than one flavor. Fidelity means to be faithful to an oath of behavioral expectation; unless the oath clearly stated an intention to celibacy the INfidelity came with the refusal of sex.
The very essence of marriage is about sex; the declared intention to deny oneself of all sexual involvement with all other persons with the intent of channelling one's sexual attentions to the given partner. Granted, this is done for practical social reasons, i.e. the care of any resulting children, but the sweaty thigh-slapping comes first and young couples in love aren't thinking of offspring.
Hell, even the St Paul told couples not to forbid one another lest the opposite member be lead into temptation.
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Eeeesh... I'm frustrated and happy at the same time......
Dr Laura never hesitates to tell a wife to leave a cheating spouse.
But conversely she has asked wives that refuse to have sex with their husbands: do you want him to divorce you, masturbate or get a girlfriend?
I see no harm in asking why a spouse refusing sex is no longer entitled to expectations of fidelity. Getting married does not entitle a person to compel another person into abstinence; and it is more than just abstinence as years of rejection amount to little more than cruelty, control and emotional abuse.
Don't believe me? Have your husband reject you night after night;, year after year and see how your self-image looks. You'll be depressed wondering if you aren't attractive, if your love making skills are inadequate, are you a bad person. Then, in the middle of all this, have someone start complimenting you on how nice you look, laughing at your jokes, etc.
Go ahead try it for a decade.
Thank you! You expanded on what I was trying to say earlier.
I'm with you both up until the part where you actually forgive the cheating......... GET A DIVORCE, then get your needs met elsewhere! Like this:
1. I think if someone cheats instead of just getting divorced that they are a piece of crap. No one deserves to be cheated on. If you can't get any love or affection at home get divorced and leave. Don't drag your family through that kind of nastiness.
2. I think kids should be raised by their moms and dads too. However I do understand situations when people have to work. I am very blessed to not have to work right now, but we sacrifice a lot so I can stay home. That being said I know stay at home moms that are total pieces of crap and should have never had kids and I know working moms who are super moms and make me feel like I should call CPS on myself.
I agree 100%.... I have working friends and stay-at-home friends, and some of them from BOTH categories need serious parenting classes......
and then regarding the "Doctor" herself:
Dr Laura never hesitates to tell a wife to leave a cheating spouse.
But conversely she has asked wives that refuse to have sex with their husbands: do you want him to divorce you, masturbate or get a girlfriend?
She become increasingly more contradictory, so how can anyone take her seriously? I have heard her, over the span of a few years, answer the same situation with two completely different answers. As fior her "advice", I've listened to her contradict herself too many tmes to take her seriously. She used to beat up the male callers equally with the women, but for the last few years (oddly about the time her son left home for his failed attempt at college, and then the military) she has been utterly horrible to the women callers, backing the men nearly 100% of the time. That's why I can't listen to her anymore. It makes me want to see her and Gloria Steinem in Celebrity Death Match, and a little part of me wants Gloria to win. I just don't know which of them I loathe more.
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Huh? This didn't make any sense to me:
"I'm with you both up until the part where you actually forgive the cheating......... GET A DIVORCE, then get your needs met elsewhere!"
What part of my earlier post didn't you agree with?
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Snuggle Bunny, if a spouse just refuses to have sex...and I agree, that after a while, it IS emotional abuse, then it is up to the one being abused to leave the marriage. I can understand why someone in that circumstance would cheat, but it just doesn't justify it at all. Wrong is wrong. The spouse refraining from having sex is also wrong, and if marital counseling isn't sought to try to rectify the problem and the other spouse is contemplating cheating, the marriage really needs to be finalized.
You can't control what someone else does (i.e., the spouse who withholds sex), you can only control yourself.
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Huh? This didn't make any sense to me:
"I'm with you both up until the part where you actually forgive the cheating......... GET A DIVORCE, then get your needs met elsewhere!"
What part of my earlier post didn't you agree with?
IMO, what she is saying is that when you justify cheating on your spouse by saying that you aren't getting your needs met, it is time to get a divorce so that you can get your needs met elsewhere, legitimately, where no wrongdoing will occur.
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It's a question of who is to blame.
If a spouse is kind, loving, available, diligent, etc does she deserve to be cheated on?
No.
If a spouse is kind, loving, available, diligent, etc does she deserve to be denied sex?
No.
See...no contradiction.
If a person doesn't want to be sexually available for a spouse who is kind, loving, available, diligent, etc THEY should seek the divorce and not act so damned naive if they get cheated on.
Imagine entering into a business contract where you and your partner agree to never make a decision without consulting each other. A standard, everyday business decision comes along and your partner is not available for you to consult. They won't return calls, answer email, answer the door when you knock.
You can try to ignore the needs of your business, but it won't go away it just keeps backing up.
You can try and dissolve the partnership but the courts will penalize you.
So what do you do?
Should the business partner act surpised if you unilaterally make a decision?
Who is the first person to break the covenant?
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Snuggle Bunny, if a spouse just refuses to have sex...and I agree, that after a while, it IS emotional abuse, then it is up to the one being abused to leave the marriage. I can understand why someone in that circumstance would cheat, but it just doesn't justify it at all. Wrong is wrong. The spouse refraining from having sex is also wrong, and if marital counseling isn't sought to try to rectify the problem and the other spouse is contemplating cheating, the marriage really needs to be finalized.
You can't control what someone else does (i.e., the spouse who withholds sex), you can only control yourself.
I don't think he was jusitfying cheating. Snuggles can come along and clarify himself but I'm pretty sure he was just trying to give some context....
And I agree with him because it expanded on my earlier comments about agreeing with Dr. Laura (in essence) because marriage (and the sexual aspect) takes work and commitment. It isn't a black and white scenario.
IMO, what she is saying is that when you justify cheating on your spouse by saying that you aren't getting your needs met, it is time to get a divorce so that you can get your needs met elsewhere, legitimately, where no wrongdoing will occur.
lastparker made a huge leap in logic then because I never said cheating was okay. I can see how my agreement of Snuggles comments could be misconstrued though.
People are flawed and messy. In a perfect world, spouses would never stray, problems would be worked on, issues resolved, third parties would never enter the picture, etc..that is not the case though. My comments and agreement with Snuggles was to expand a bit on the "whys". Not to make excuses.
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If a person doesn't want to be sexually available for a spouse who is kind, loving, available, diligent, etc THEY should seek the divorce and not act so damned naive if they get cheated on.
There is the justification for cheating, right here.
Again, you can only control what YOU do.
The spouse withholding their love and affection is wrong.
Cheating is wrong.
You can't control the other person's wrongdoing. You can only control yours.
So, if they are withholding their love and affection and they are resistant to counseling and/or trying to work through it, then get out of the marriage and find someone who can meet these needs in a legitimate way.
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Dixie, of course people are flawed and messy. But, in the end, right is right and wrong is wrong, and again, I can see why someone would cheat, but it just doesn't make it right, regardless of what the other spouse did to "make" you do it. That is what I am hearing here, "She MADE me do it!" Get the hell out of the marriage if they aren't being loving, etc. and if they aren't even willing to work on it. The person who isn't getting their needs met has a RESPONSIBILITY. If the spouse withholding isn't giving their part of the marriage, then it IS up to the other spouse to try to do all that they can to salvage things. Cheating won't accomplish that or fix anything, it will only complicate things even more. That marriage will be just as mucked up as it was before, even more so.
And again, any drunk can say, "She DROVE me to drink!" They are still at fault for being an alcoholic.
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I will also say this, if a spouse withholds their love and affection, there is probably a reason for that. I know women do it out of utter resentment. There is usually a long, complicated history involved, which is why counseling is the way to go.
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LL, it's not cheating if the covenant is already broken.
The refuser is the one that cheated the "adulterer" merely reacted. Try and take the refuser to court and you will lose your property, your children and your money just to enable, encourage and facilitate the act of the refuser in breaking that covenant. It's only sensible and practical that someone would seek to avoid those legal penalties. It is unreasonable to say to someone, "you must have your finances taken, life's work shredded and your children ruined by ugly lawyers or you must give up sex, comfort and companionship for the next 30 years" and not expect them to seek a "middle road."
(And no, I hve not been divorced over adultery, in case you're--fairly and understandably--wondering if I'm projecting.)
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LL, it's not cheating if the covenant is already broken.
That is a convenient way to justify it, one that surely would wax someone's conscience.
I will leave this argument with I am the type of person who takes FULL responsibility for my wrongdoings, and I also refuse to take responsibility for someone else's.
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LL, it's not cheating if the covenant is already broken.
That is a convenient way to justify it...
Especially since it's true.
edit--
QUERY: If a spouse sat before your court and begged relief from the marriage because the other spouse repeatedly refused sex would you grant the divorce?
What if the refusing spouse agreed but demanded the legal prescription entitling them to the family home, half the finances, custody of the children, alimony and child support?
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Dixie, of course people are flawed and messy. But, in the end, right is right and wrong is wrong, and again, I can see why someone would cheat, but it just doesn't make it right, regardless of what the other spouse did to "make" you do it. That is what I am hearing here, "She MADE me do it!" Get the hell out of the marriage if they aren't being loving, etc. and if they aren't even willing to work on it. The person who isn't getting their needs met has a RESPONSIBILITY. If the spouse withholding isn't giving their part of the marriage, then it IS up to the other spouse to try to do all that they can to salvage things. Cheating won't accomplish that or fix anything, it will only complicate things even more. That marriage will be just as mucked up as it was before, even more so.
And again, any drunk can say, "She DROVE me to drink!" They are still at fault for being an alcoholic.
I wasn't hearing that in what Snuggles posted. I do think a couple in crisis should exhaust all means of counseling before throwing in the towel or complicating things by involving a third party. That's the best way to handle it. But that's not the way it usually gets handled. We could sit here all day and point fingers at one hypothetical spouse or another. Bottom line: every marriage is different and every relationship is complicated in ways an outsider can't possibly understand. At least that's my take on it as a divorced and re-married person. :innocent:
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Dixie, of course people are flawed and messy. But, in the end, right is right and wrong is wrong, and again, I can see why someone would cheat, but it just doesn't make it right, regardless of what the other spouse did to "make" you do it. That is what I am hearing here, "She MADE me do it!" Get the hell out of the marriage if they aren't being loving, etc. and if they aren't even willing to work on it. The person who isn't getting their needs met has a RESPONSIBILITY. If the spouse withholding isn't giving their part of the marriage, then it IS up to the other spouse to try to do all that they can to salvage things. Cheating won't accomplish that or fix anything, it will only complicate things even more. That marriage will be just as mucked up as it was before, even more so.
And again, any drunk can say, "She DROVE me to drink!" They are still at fault for being an alcoholic.
I wasn't hearing that in what Snuggles posted. I do think a couple in crisis should exhaust all means of counseling before throwing in the towel or complicating things by involving a third party. That's the best way to handle it. But that's not the way it usually gets handled. We could sit here all day and point fingers at one hypothetical spouse or another. Bottom line: every marriage is different and every relationship is complicated in ways an outsider can't possibly understand. At least that's my take on it as a divorced and re-married person. :innocent:
Well put ma'am.
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Dixie, of course people are flawed and messy. But, in the end, right is right and wrong is wrong, and again, I can see why someone would cheat, but it just doesn't make it right, regardless of what the other spouse did to "make" you do it. That is what I am hearing here, "She MADE me do it!" Get the hell out of the marriage if they aren't being loving, etc. and if they aren't even willing to work on it. The person who isn't getting their needs met has a RESPONSIBILITY. If the spouse withholding isn't giving their part of the marriage, then it IS up to the other spouse to try to do all that they can to salvage things. Cheating won't accomplish that or fix anything, it will only complicate things even more. That marriage will be just as mucked up as it was before, even more so.
And again, any drunk can say, "She DROVE me to drink!" They are still at fault for being an alcoholic.
The thing is it is so easy to blame the other person when you are that situation. Instead of looking at what you could have done you focus on what the spouse should have done. Then you actually can convince yourself that you were driven to do it.
Cheating is never the answer, relationships are hard enough to keep in tact without having to deal with that.