The Conservative Cave
Current Events => The DUmpster => Topic started by: Attero Dominatus on March 06, 2008, 06:07:25 PM
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http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x2961843
Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Journal Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list Click to add this author to your Ignore list Wed Mar-05-08 10:34 AM
Original message
McCain Must Be Pressed to Explain his “Commitment†to our Imperial Occupation of Iraq
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John McCain has consistently echoed the Bush administration talking points regarding our “commitments†to continue fighting the Iraq War. First there is the idea that “If we don’t fight them over there we’ll have to fight them hereâ€. Then there is “If we cut and run we’ll show the world that we don’t honor our commitmentsâ€. And then there is simply “We need to maintain a strategic influence in that part of the worldâ€. Perhaps the main difference between McCain’s position on the war, compared to George Bush’s is that McCain has specified various lengths of times that he expects US forces to remain in Iraq – such as a hundred, a thousand, or a million years. Since McCain is almost certain to be the Republican nominee for president this year it is well worth asking several questions regarding these talking points – such as who is the “them†we’re protecting ourselves against by fighting this war, what are the commitments we’ve honored in Iraq and that McCain expects to continue honoring, and what are the costs and benefits of maintaining “influence†in the area.
Who is the “them†we are protecting ourselves against?
The Iraq Study Group Report of late 2006 contains in some respects one of the most thorough descriptions of the dynamics of the Iraq War available. The report acknowledges four sources of violence in Iraq, including the Sunni insurgency, al Qaeda, Shiite militias, and organized criminality. The most important of the four groups as a source of violence against Americans is noted by the report’s statement that “most attacks on Americans still come from the Sunni Arab insurgencyâ€. Next in importance is the Shiite militias, about which the report states: “The Mahdi Army, led by Moqtada al-Sadr, may number as many as 60,000 fighters. It has directly challenged U.S. and Iraqi government forces, and…†Third in importance is al Qaeda, about which the report estimates there to be about 1,300 foreign fighters.
So whom are we protecting ourselves against through our presence in Iraq? We’ve already gotten rid of Saddam Hussein, against whose nonexistent weapons of mass destruction provided the excuse for our initial invasion. Is the purpose of our continued presence in Iraq to protect ourselves against the 1,300 foreign fighters, who would never have had a reason to be in Iraq if not for our invasion? Far from deterring al Qaeda, as a result of the false pretenses upon which we invaded Iraq, our disregard for the international laws of war regarding treatment of prisoners, and the death and destruction we have wrought upon Iraq, the international reputation of the United States has plummeted to record lows, especially among Muslims. And consequently, the war has served as a recruiting tool for anti-American terrorists, resulting in great harm to our efforts to combat international terror.
Thus it is clear that our war is primarily fought against the Iraqi insurgents, who greatly resent our invasion and occupation of their country and our killing of their civilian population, as well as many other things that have resulted from our invasion and occupation of their country. But why should they resent that when, as George Bush says, we are there to spread democracy and to bring them freedom?
I did not bring over the whole original post because it exceeds the character limit. But it is nothing more than the usual blame America first crap.
Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Journal Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list Click to add this author to your Ignore list Wed Mar-05-08 03:36 PM
Response to Reply #1
7. Thank you EOTE -- Yes, I believe we need to go after McCain regarding his many inconsistencies,
especially regarding his ridiculous insistence on remaining an imperial occupying power in Iraq forever. What on earth is he thinking? I think that he said that in order to stop the hemorrhage of die-hard conservatives away from his candidacy. But now that he's said it, it seems highly likely that he will stick to it if elected president. That would be a disaster, which could eventually mean WW III.
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gratuitous Donating Member (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list Click to add this author to your Ignore list Wed Mar-05-08 11:23 AM
Response to Original message
3. Oh, it's just all so complicated!
We took out Saddam, isn't that enough for you libruls? It's enough for the Neanderthal Right!
The statistic that just smacks me in the face over and over is that in a country with a population of 25 million, we've created 4 million refugees, never mind the hundreds of thousands we've killed. And yet there are large segments of our country who are absolutely mystified about why Iraqis might not like us very much.
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Journal Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list Click to add this author to your Ignore list Wed Mar-05-08 09:45 PM
Response to Reply #3
11. Yep, those statistics ought to strike all Americans in the face
4 million refugees, 1.3 million dead, and most of the rest of the population living in misery, fear, and anger at the American invasion. Yet, our corporate news media never even mentions these statistics.
And so many Americans live in ignorance of all this. I really do believe that most Americans are much better people than are our corporate elite, who promote these wars and obscure the truth about them. I do believe that most Americans would be shocked and horrified if they really knew what was going on in their name (of course, they share the blame for not trying hard enough to find out).
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Are you idiots naturally that stupid, or do you have to work at it?
butlerd (570 posts) Journal Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list Click to add this author to your Ignore list Wed Mar-05-08 01:28 PM
Response to Original message
5. How are the "insurgents" a threat to anybody other than our troops (that Bush put there)? Updated at 5:25 PM
Edited on Wed Mar-05-08 01:30 PM by butlerd
Are the insurgents blowing themselves up and killing people here? Have they threatened to do so? How will they come over here to attack us (considering their lack of mobility, geographical distance, and a big ocean)? Will they keep fighting/killing our troops if we withdraw our troops from Iraq?
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The insurgents a threat to everyone there you idiot. :bird:
dougolat Donating Member (43 posts) Journal Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list Click to add this author to your Ignore list Thu Mar-06-08 11:18 AM
Response to Original message
21. Yes Yes Yes, this is their weakest spot!
The only way congress has been able to keep funding the war-crimes for profiteers has been thru ignorance maintained by the profiteer-owned media's smokescreen on the entire issue. This time we've got a six week build-up to the Penn. primary and Clinton-Obama have the media's ear: what if they campaign against McCain, and elicit some more "hundred years" statements from him? Maybe loose his famous temper?
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:whatever:
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the international reputation of the United States has plummeted to record lows, especially among Muslims.
Newsflash skippy....I don`t really give a rats ass.
And consequently, the war has served as a recruiting tool for anti-American terrorists, resulting in great harm to our efforts to combat international terror.
Second point,they were of that bent to start with so then I have no problem with our troops kiliing them.
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Yeah, the Muslims are pissed that the U.S. isn't rolling over for that universal caliphate. :whatever:
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The DUmpmonkeys are going to have a drooling foaming fit when they realize no matter who becomes the next president, the military operations in Iraq will continued unchanged.
They are also going to flip out when they are forced to realize we are not occupying Iraq. We are there at the request of the Iraqi government.
All of this will become clear to them when and if we have a democrat president.
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Thus it is clear that our war is primarily fought against the Iraqi insurgents, who greatly resent our invasion and occupation of their country and our killing of their civilian population, as well as many other things that have resulted from our invasion and occupation of their country. But why should they resent that when, as George Bush says, we are there to spread democracy and to bring them freedom?
Oh bullshit, what they resent is the fact that they weren't allowed to step in and fill the power vacuum themselves by force and set up their own little tinpot dictatorship. You really think Moqtada al-Sadr was happier with the stuation under Saddam than with what he has now - his own army and political power that he never had under the Sunni Baathist regime? Despite all the altruistic motives you asshole apologists assign to them, the only thing they "resent" is that we're standing between them and their imposition of a Medieval-like Sharia government. One of the mistakes we made in the early days of the war was not making al-Sadr a greasy spot on the wall of his mosque.
And don't even get me started on how the Sunnis are just pissed because they're no longer standing on the necks of the Shia majority.
If you DUmbasses would pull your faces out of the insurgents' crotches for a little while, you know, come up for air, get a little oxygen to your brains, you might accidentally have a coherent thought or two.
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The start date for OIF was March 20, 2003 so I will use 5 years as to our time in Iraq. Thats 1,825 days and 1,300,000 supposedly dead or 712 dead each and every day. Considering if 5 Iraqis are killed we see it above the fold I find the huge number the left uses as completley false.
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“The Mahdi Army, led by Moqtada al-Sadr, may number as many as 60,000 fighters.
Another made up number. These so called journalists write a story and then they insert numbers that fit the story some how, they have no basis in fact. You can't believe anything you read. :censored: