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Current Events => Breaking News => Topic started by: bijou on December 23, 2009, 11:49:14 AM

Title: Obama plans for health care delay, new jobs bill
Post by: bijou on December 23, 2009, 11:49:14 AM
The White House privately anticipates health care talks to slip into February — past President Barack Obama’s first State of the Union address — and then plans to make a “very hard pivot” to a new jobs bill, according to senior administration officials.

Obama has been told that disputes over abortion and the tight schedule are highly likely to delay a final deal, a blow to the president, who had hoped to trumpet a health care victory in his big speech to the nation. But he has also been told that House Democratic leaders seem inclined, at least for now, to largely accept the compromise worked out in the Senate, virtually ensuring he will eventually get a deal.

Internally, White House aides are plunging into a 2010 plan calling for an early focus on creating jobs, especially in the energy sector, along with starting a conversation about deficit reduction measures, the administration officials said. ... http://www.politico.com/news/stories/1209/30925.html
Also check out the commentary at HotAir. Obamacare may yet die?  (http://hotair.com/archives/2009/12/23/wh-putting-health-care-off-until-february/comment-page-1/#comments)

Title: Re: Obama plans for health care delay, new jobs bill
Post by: NHSparky on December 23, 2009, 12:01:42 PM
Energy jobs--this oughta be good.
Title: Re: Obama plans for health care delay, new jobs bill
Post by: DefiantSix on December 23, 2009, 12:16:14 PM
Energy jobs--this oughta be good.

From the same assholes who promised they were gonna close down the entire coal industry.  I'm curious how much energy you can generate from dissidents on treadmills in FEMA gulags, or the burned bodies of "untermenchen" (Christians, Republicans, and the like).
Title: Re: Obama plans for health care delay, new jobs bill
Post by: Happy Fun Ball on December 23, 2009, 12:19:51 PM
Energy jobs--this oughta be good.
I hear the hamster suit and giant wheel stocks are going to skyrocket soon...
Title: Re: Obama plans for health care delay, new jobs bill
Post by: Carl on December 23, 2009, 12:21:42 PM
It will be more subsidized,make work crap funneling money into certain states as payoffs.
They will likely be required to give non productive "jobs" to union ranks.
Title: Re: Obama plans for health care delay, new jobs bill
Post by: Patriot Lady on December 23, 2009, 12:56:29 PM
It will be more subsidized,make work crap funneling money into certain states as payoffs.
They will likely be required to give non productive "jobs" to union ranks.
Jobs, flobs- it will be another fiasco.
His healthcare is deadmeat just like he is-- same smell    :loser:
Title: Re: Obama plans for health care delay, new jobs bill
Post by: Oceander on December 23, 2009, 01:48:58 PM
Jobs, flobs- it will be another fiasco.
His healthcare is deadmeat just like he is-- same smell    :loser:

Yeah, shit.
Title: Re: Obama plans for health care delay, new jobs bill
Post by: NHSparky on December 23, 2009, 01:49:26 PM
It will be more subsidized,make work crap funneling money into certain states as payoffs.
They will likely be required to give non productive "jobs" to union ranks.

Well, considering he's already paid off the SEIU, UAW, and Teamsters, this is another payoff to the IBEW and other "energy" unions.
Title: Re: Obama plans for health care delay, new jobs bill
Post by: Oceander on December 23, 2009, 01:50:32 PM
Meanwhile, we already flipped one Representative; let's see how many more we can flip, starting now.  That means ramping up the telephone calls, the letters, the faxes, the emails, the personal visits, the Tea Party demonstrations, townhalls, whatever it takes to make it clear to every member of the Democrat party that the only correct side of history is the right side, our side.
Title: Re: Obama plans for health care delay, new jobs bill
Post by: bkg on December 23, 2009, 01:52:15 PM
Meanwhile, we already flipped one Representative; let's see how many more we can flip, starting now.  That means ramping up the telephone calls, the letters, the faxes, the emails, the personal visits, the Tea Party demonstrations, townhalls, whatever it takes to make it clear to every member of the Democrat party that the only correct side of history is the right side, our side.

No... we did NOT flip anyone. Changing the three letters after your name does not make you a conservative... He's still a lib.
Title: Re: Obama plans for health care delay, new jobs bill
Post by: Oceander on December 23, 2009, 02:17:09 PM
No... we did NOT flip anyone. Changing the three letters after your name does not make you a conservative... He's still a lib.

No, he's not. 
Title: Re: Obama plans for health care delay, new jobs bill
Post by: Karin on December 23, 2009, 03:09:26 PM
I don't think he's a lib, either.  I saw an interview with him today.  He seems sincere in being repelled by the hard left turn the D's have taken. 
Title: Re: Obama plans for health care delay, new jobs bill
Post by: Texacon on December 23, 2009, 03:30:16 PM
The closer this gets to the 2010 elections the farther these bills will be from ever becoming reality.  We win on 2 counts.  I'm kinda liking this.

KC
Title: Re: Obama plans for health care delay, new jobs bill
Post by: bkg on December 23, 2009, 04:27:00 PM
No, he's not. 

You're honestly going to tell me that a life-long (or however long) Dem who suddently decides to switch sides is NOT a lib based on a small handful of votes?

Why was he a dem in the first place?
Title: Re: Obama plans for health care delay, new jobs bill
Post by: zeitgeist on December 23, 2009, 04:50:10 PM
Energy jobs--this oughta be good.

Hey Sailor, lookin for a good deal on a used windmill?  You can check it out at the Kittery dump, low hours, seldom used.  Producer went bankrupt before issuing refund.  This unit can be yours CHEAP !! Town fathers (and a mother or two) will be eternally grateful for the bailout. 

Don Quixote, RA
Cervantes Equipment Sales, LLC

 :lmao:


Title: Re: Obama plans for health care delay, new jobs bill
Post by: The Village Idiot on December 23, 2009, 05:30:39 PM
The first one worked so well.

ha

Another trillion in monopoly money coming right up! up ours....
Title: Re: Obama plans for health care delay, new jobs bill
Post by: Oceander on December 23, 2009, 05:35:54 PM
The first one worked so well.

ha

Another trillion in monopoly money coming right up! up ours....


(http://tylerandalyssa.files.wordpress.com/2009/08/monopoly-money1.jpg)
Title: Re: Obama plans for health care delay, new jobs bill
Post by: bkg on December 23, 2009, 07:28:02 PM
The first one worked so well.

ha

Another trillion in monopoly money coming right up! up ours....

unfortunately, they all worship at the alter of Keynes.

A tax bill could be written in one paragrap: the new corporate tax rate is now 10% with the capital gains tax rates being adjusted to 10% as well. Permanently. Healthcare will now be duductable to the employee rather than the employer and FICA taxes will be cut from ~15% to 5%.

Done.
Title: Re: Obama plans for health care delay, new jobs bill
Post by: Rockriver15 on December 23, 2009, 07:37:25 PM
Yeah, shit.
I double that dear sir as long as you mean at the next presidential election. The man has done nothing and I use the term man lightly for I was taught by father that a man is only as good as his word and this elected official is nothing more than a liar so what kind of man is that. Not a man by any definition I know of. :bow:
Title: Re: Obama plans for health care delay, new jobs bill
Post by: Oceander on December 23, 2009, 07:39:56 PM
unfortunately, they all worship at the alter of Keynes.

A tax bill could be written in one paragrap: the new corporate tax rate is now 10% with the capital gains tax rates being adjusted to 10% as well. Permanently. Healthcare will now be duductable to the employee rather than the employer and FICA taxes will be cut from ~15% to 5%.

Done.


Ok, and what does the tax apply to?
Title: Re: Obama plans for health care delay, new jobs bill
Post by: bkg on December 23, 2009, 07:43:45 PM
Ok, and what does the tax apply to?

should have said "corp income tax." oops. Hey - it's a draft!  :lmao:

The only way to get people to invest in this country again is if it's more profitable to invest here than overseas. Right now, it's not.
Title: Re: Obama plans for health care delay, new jobs bill
Post by: docstew on December 24, 2009, 12:26:21 AM
why have a corp income tax rate above 0%?  any taxes the corps pay come in the form of "embedded taxes" the consumers pay in the form of higher prices.

here's my proposal, although i would still prefer the fairtax, but within the system we have now, here it is.

corp income tax:0%
personal income tax: 0-36k: 1%, graduated in 4 brackets up to a top bracket of 15%.  no marriage, death, or other hidden penalty.  no withholding from paychecks, all taxes must be paid in one lump sum the friday before election day.
Title: Re: Obama plans for health care delay, new jobs bill
Post by: bkg on December 24, 2009, 12:33:11 AM
why have a corp income tax rate above 0%?  any taxes the corps pay come in the form of "embedded taxes" the consumers pay in the form of higher prices.

Since SCOTUS allotted the (or some of) rights of the individual to the corporation. Therefore it makes a certain amount of sense to tax them as such. Drop taxes alltogether (which, BTW, I AM in favor of doing), then we must treat all corporations as we (are supposed to) treat non-profits today: no political interaction/posturing/etc.

Does that though make sense? I'm still kind of workign through it.
Title: Re: Obama plans for health care delay, new jobs bill
Post by: Oceander on December 24, 2009, 12:42:46 AM
Since SCOTUS allotted the (or some of) rights of the individual to the corporation. Therefore it makes a certain amount of sense to tax them as such. Drop taxes alltogether (which, BTW, I AM in favor of doing), then we must treat all corporations as we (are supposed to) treat non-profits today: no political interaction/posturing/etc.

Does that though make sense? I'm still kind of workign through it.

Not really.  That's sort of mixing apples and oranges.  Notwithstanding that a corporation has certain "rights" just like individuals do, a corporation does not bear the economic burden of any taxes that are nominally imposed upon it; those taxes are borne by either (a) the corporation's business counterparties (e.g., the vendors it buys from or the buyers it sells to), (b) the corporation's employees and managers, or (c) the corporation's equity owners.  This occurs, of course, because a corporation, being intangible, and not alive, does not consume wealth, it is merely a device for the aggregation and consumption of wealth by groups of individuals.  As such, there is a certain theoretical propinquity in taxing the individuals who do the ultimate consuming, and not the corporation, which is, after all, a mere intermediary.

On the other hand, there are arguments to be made that the corporation should continue to nominally bear a tax precisely because that tax tends to get passed along to those who ultimately enjoy the fruits of the corporation's "labors" in much the same way that a withholding agent (e.g., everyone's employer) is nominally subjected to a tax that is ultimately supposed to be borne economically by the employees, not the employer.  Others have argued that imposing a tax on corporations is a useful tool for controlling corporate management (I can't remember the argument in any detail to summarize it here, but I'll find a cite to the paper and its author if anyone's really interested).

Of course, the fly in that ointment is that taxing the corporation in that manner - treating it as some sort of withholding or pass-through agent - doesn't really work well because there is no way to say with any great degree of confidence prospectively who, precisely, will end up bearing the economic burden of a tax imposed on the corporation - for all we know, the corporate tax could end up being economically borne by its rank-and-file employees, most of whom would otherwise be taxed at a marginal rate far below that of the current corporate income tax rate.
Title: Re: Obama plans for health care delay, new jobs bill
Post by: The Village Idiot on December 24, 2009, 11:48:41 AM
The only fairtax is a flat tax without all the crap around it. The "prebate" is the most retarded thing I ever hear.

Fairtax is still progressive, those who pay nothing still get "refunds" blah blah .... pointless to switch to that, IMO.

But thats off topic.

0% taxes for everybody is a better idea, or at least as low as possible.

Cut the spending.
Title: Re: Obama plans for health care delay, new jobs bill
Post by: NHSparky on December 24, 2009, 12:22:15 PM
No... we did NOT flip anyone. Changing the three letters after your name does not make you a conservative... He's still a lib.

By your reasoning, Reagan was/is also a lib.
Title: Re: Obama plans for health care delay, new jobs bill
Post by: NHSparky on December 24, 2009, 12:26:24 PM
Hey Sailor, lookin for a good deal on a used windmill?  You can check it out at the Kittery dump, low hours, seldom used.  Producer went bankrupt before issuing refund.  This unit can be yours CHEAP !! Town fathers (and a mother or two) will be eternally grateful for the bailout. 

Don Quixote, RA
Cervantes Equipment Sales, LLC

 :lmao:




Yeah, I saw that story--for those who are not familiar with the goings on:

LINK (http://pressherald.mainetoday.com/story.php?id=297526&ac=PHnws)

More hopey-changey going on in a town near you.
Title: Re: Obama plans for health care delay, new jobs bill
Post by: Oceander on December 24, 2009, 12:36:02 PM
The only fairtax is a flat tax without all the crap around it. The "prebate" is the most retarded thing I ever hear.

Fairtax is still progressive, those who pay nothing still get "refunds" blah blah .... pointless to switch to that, IMO.

But thats off topic.

0% taxes for everybody is a better idea, or at least as low as possible.

Cut the spending.

Not necessarily.  The diminishing marginal utility of wealth provides a good philosophical foundation for a progressive income tax (keep in mind, it only provides an existence-type justification, it doesn't provide much help in determining how progressive the income tax should be).  To see this, consider Bill Gates, whom we'll assume earns $100 million/year, and Joe Shmo, whom we'll assume earns $30,000 a year.  The utility of Bill Gates' 100 millionth dollar is, I think all will agree, substantially less than the utility of Joe's thirty thousandth dollar.

Now, if we add to our philosophical tools the rule that the distribution of the tax burden ought to cause as little pain as possible (which is different from something like distributing the burden on the basis of benefits received from the system, which just leads to indeterminacy), then we arrive at the conclusion that Bill Gates should be taxed more heavily than Joe Schmo because it causes Bill less pain than it does Joe.

If we push this to the extreme, however, we reach the point at which we might be inclined to say that Bill should be the only one taxed until the total tax burden has reached $99,970,000, at which point one is tempted to argue that Bill and Joe are now equal inasmuch as they arguably now have the same marginal utility.

However, the theoretical framework won't get us there, and reality will break it long before we even get close, because as we all know, Bill would start engaging in tax evasion long before he paid $99,970,000 in taxes (notwithstanding his liberal b.s.).  So, in the absence of a theoretically satisfactory limit on the degree of progressivity, I would suggest the following empirical limit - progressivity should stop at or before the point at which high income earners begin to engage in tax evasion to any significant degree (and, by "tax evasion" here I would include such "innocuous" things as overstating your charitable contributions, your deductions, shaving a little bit off of cash receipts not subject to 1099 reporting, and the like, as well as the more classic forms of tax evasion).

So, without doing too much heavy-duty academic slogging, you can derive a reasonable argument in favor of a progressive income tax, and although you cannot a priori what the maximally efficient rate of progressivity is, you can discover that limitation with a little trial and error.  Most likely, you'd reach a degree of progressivity that is reasonably close to what we have right now (i.e., b/f the Democrat excesses kick in), provided that you included all of the federal taxes, such as the payroll taxes, in your progressivity computations.
Title: Re: Obama plans for health care delay, new jobs bill
Post by: The Village Idiot on December 24, 2009, 12:46:56 PM
 To see this, consider Bill Gates, whom we'll assume earns $100 million/year, and Joe Shmo, whom we'll assume earns $30,000 a year.  The utility of Bill Gates' 100 millionth dollar is, I think all will agree, substantially less than the utility of Joe's thirty thousandth dollar.

No, I cannot determine that. Bill Gates could employ thousands, Shmo ain't giving nobody a job. Bill Gates could fund pioneering research on newer and cheaper sources of energy, underwrite a private mission to Mars or any number of things. It is not the governments job to determine whose dollar is more useful.

I think we need to get back to basics.

Money belongs to him/her that earns it. Not to government. I don't think government should own anything, I really don't. Definitely not a portion of future earnings. Obviously this is all my opinion and all that, I'm not saying we'll ever have the kind of government we should have.
Title: Re: Obama plans for health care delay, new jobs bill
Post by: Oceander on December 24, 2009, 01:11:14 PM
No, I cannot determine that. Bill Gates could employ thousands, Shmo ain't giving nobody a job. Bill Gates could fund pioneering research on newer and cheaper sources of energy, underwrite a private mission to Mars or any number of things. It is not the governments job to determine whose dollar is more useful.

I think we need to get back to basics.

Money belongs to him/her that earns it. Not to government. I don't think government should own anything, I really don't. Definitely not a portion of future earnings. Obviously this is all my opinion and all that, I'm not saying we'll ever have the kind of government we should have.

First off, you're mixing apples and oranges - besides which, what do you think Joe Schmo does when he buys something for consumption purposes?  He's basically employing someone to make something for him that he then consumes.

Second, I said nothing about the "usefulness" of any particular expenditure - my analysis works just as well for a barebones, nightwatchman type of government (i.e., basically laissez faire) as well as on a bloated nanny-state such as the Democrats wish to enshrine in the Statutes at Large.  My discussion was, simply put, about how to distribute a given tax burden amongst multiple taxpayers with different income levels, which dicussion necessarily assumed arguendo that the level of required revenue was both (a) fixed, and (b) noncontroversial.

Third, my argument starts precisely from the premise that that income belongs to s/he who earns it, not the government.  Given that assumption, however, you still have to figure out how to pay for the costs of government, unless you're going to simply go with complete anarchy and not have any government whatsoever.  Instead of gadding about with the old, worn-out theories of ability-to-pay and benefit theory and whatnot, I decided to approach it from the basis that, as we all know, paying taxes hurts, no matter how reasonable the tax in question.  That gives one a fair, efficient basis on which to distribute the hurt - as equally as possible.  We then throw in the marginal utility of income point - which is generally not a particularly controversial concept - which implies that an equal distribution of the pain caused by any given level of taxation will be progressive in proportion to income.  Finally, because we're talking economics here, we want our tax system to be as efficient as possible - that is, we want it to create as few wedges and transaction costs as possible, because those just represent wasted value.  One simple measure of the efficiency of a tax system is the degree to which it does, or does not, incentivize taxpayers to engage in tax evasion.  Tax evasion is another form of inefficiency because it results in taxpayers expending valuable resources - time and money - to engage in non-economic activities in order to lower their tax burden.  Not something most of us (Democrats excepted, of course) want.  Thus, that basic view of economic efficiency argues that the upper limit for the progressivity of any income tax system is that point at which taxpayers in general begin to engage in significant levels of tax evasion (as I defined in my last post).
Title: Re: Obama plans for health care delay, new jobs bill
Post by: docstew on December 24, 2009, 02:12:46 PM
The only fairtax is a flat tax without all the crap around it. The "prebate" is the most retarded thing I ever hear.

Fairtax is still progressive, those who pay nothing still get "refunds" blah blah .... pointless to switch to that, IMO.

But thats off topic.

0% taxes for everybody is a better idea, or at least as low as possible.

Cut the spending.

Under the Fairtax, the only way to pay nothing is to buy nothing that is new, not even food.  Kinda difficult to eat used food.  The "prebate" is meant to cover basic living expenses.  Is it progressive?  Yes, in a sense: those who have more money can spend more money to buy stuff, therefore they will spend more money on the tax on that stuff.  But it would allow people to decide what their tax burden would be, rather than being told what they have to pay.
Title: Re: Obama plans for health care delay, new jobs bill
Post by: Patriot Lady on December 24, 2009, 02:54:08 PM
The word Fairtax is an oxymoron! They are always trying to get us with semantics.
Title: Re: Obama plans for health care delay, new jobs bill
Post by: Oceander on December 24, 2009, 02:57:36 PM
Do we really want to get into this discussion tonight?
Title: Re: Obama plans for health care delay, new jobs bill
Post by: franksolich on December 24, 2009, 03:00:05 PM
Do we really want to get into this discussion tonight?

This is one of Rebel's favorite topics.

It's a great topic, but a fair tax is only fair if there aren't special-interest exceptions.
Title: Re: Obama plans for health care delay, new jobs bill
Post by: Oceander on December 24, 2009, 03:01:39 PM
This is one of Rebel's favorite topics.

It's a great topic, but a fair tax is only fair if there aren't special-interest exceptions.

Well, it's certainly less fair the more special-interest exceptions there are in it, but I'm still not convinced that a flat tax is fairer than a judiciously progressive tax.
Title: Re: Obama plans for health care delay, new jobs bill
Post by: The Village Idiot on December 24, 2009, 03:16:33 PM
Under the Fairtax, the only way to pay nothing is to buy nothing that is new, not even food.  Kinda difficult to eat used food.  The "prebate" is meant to cover basic living expenses.  Is it progressive?  Yes, in a sense: those who have more money can spend more money to buy stuff, therefore they will spend more money on the tax on that stuff.  But it would allow people to decide what their tax burden would be, rather than being told what they have to pay.

the prebate is a leftists dream

Democrats promise to triple the prebate for the poor! Greedy GOP opposes plan! film at 11.
Title: Re: Obama plans for health care delay, new jobs bill
Post by: bkg on December 24, 2009, 05:27:20 PM
The word Fairtax is an oxymoron! They are always trying to get us with semantics.

I'm assuming you're going to explain this position. So I'll wait for you to back it up.
Title: Re: Obama plans for health care delay, new jobs bill
Post by: bkg on December 24, 2009, 05:28:28 PM
The only fairtax is a flat tax without all the crap around it. The "prebate" is the most retarded thing I ever hear.

Fairtax is still progressive, those who pay nothing still get "refunds" blah blah .... pointless to switch to that, IMO.

But thats off topic.

0% taxes for everybody is a better idea, or at least as low as possible.

Cut the spending.

Agreed. Spot on. All the prebates do is help keep the IRS in charge.
Title: Re: Obama plans for health care delay, new jobs bill
Post by: Texacon on December 24, 2009, 05:29:17 PM
I love the fairtax.  We can't get it in place quick enough to suit me.

KC
Title: Re: Obama plans for health care delay, new jobs bill
Post by: bkg on December 24, 2009, 05:30:57 PM
No, I cannot determine that. Bill Gates could employ thousands, Shmo ain't giving nobody a job. Bill Gates could fund pioneering research on newer and cheaper sources of energy, underwrite a private mission to Mars or any number of things. It is not the ANYONES right to determine whose dollar is more useful.
I think we need to get back to basics.

Money belongs to him/her that earns it. Not to government. I don't think government should own anything, I really don't. Definitely not a portion of future earnings. Obviously this is all my opinion and all that, I'm not saying we'll ever have the kind of government we should have.

Gates is technically retired. He also has one of the largest charities in the world. I hope he makes MORE than $100M a year, frankly. MSFT employs over 93K people. Anyone who stands on the sidelines and says "xxx doesn't need that much money" is FOS, hence my edit.
Title: Re: Obama plans for health care delay, new jobs bill
Post by: docstew on December 24, 2009, 11:54:51 PM
Agreed. Spot on. All the prebates do is help keep the IRS in charge.

The Fairtax would eliminate the IRS, as it would not be needed.  The prebates would be distributed via EFT by direct deposit, and would be tied to the cost of living.  Dems may try to increase the prebate, but the effect of that would be lower net tax revenues, since everyone gets the same amount.  For those of you who have questions about it, read "The Fairtax Book (http://www.amazon.com/FairTax-Book-Saying-Goodbye-Income/dp/B000UENRO2/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1261720073&sr=1-2)" or "Fairtax: Answering the Critics (http://www.amazon.com/FairTax-Answering-Critics-Neal-Boortz/dp/B0027CSNOO/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1261720073&sr=1-1)".
Title: Re: Obama plans for health care delay, new jobs bill
Post by: Hawkgirl on December 25, 2009, 12:43:57 PM
Huckabee was a proponent of the fair tax....Revenue for the country would be made up with a federal sales tax on everything but food....Is that what he was endorsing??? I honestly forgot the specifics of his plan....

Title: Re: Obama plans for health care delay, new jobs bill
Post by: bkg on December 25, 2009, 04:12:28 PM
The Fairtax would eliminate the IRS, as it would not be needed.  The prebates would be distributed via EFT by direct deposit, and would be tied to the cost of living.  Dems may try to increase the prebate, but the effect of that would be lower net tax revenues, since everyone gets the same amount.  For those of you who have questions about it, read "The Fairtax Book (http://www.amazon.com/FairTax-Book-Saying-Goodbye-Income/dp/B000UENRO2/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1261720073&sr=1-2)" or "Fairtax: Answering the Critics (http://www.amazon.com/FairTax-Answering-Critics-Neal-Boortz/dp/B0027CSNOO/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1261720073&sr=1-1)".

No offense, but the prebate by definition, keeps gov't control. I don't care what the book says (I've read it), the IRS would, at best, be replaced by another agency that does effectively the same thing. More likely, it would remain with adjusted duties. The fairtax is a good idea with poor execution.
Title: Re: Obama plans for health care delay, new jobs bill
Post by: crockspot on December 26, 2009, 01:32:55 AM
Energy jobs--this oughta be good.

And deficit reduction... which is just a code word for more taxes.
Title: Re: Obama plans for health care delay, new jobs bill
Post by: Patriot Lady on December 26, 2009, 10:26:50 AM
I'm assuming you're going to explain this position. So I'll wait for you to back it up.
The term "fair" is subjective!
How about zero tax?  That's my resolution.  The government ran before 1913 without any income tax.  How about they put out bonds that people want to invest in because they will yield a legitimate return.  How about the government run itself like a business that profits from intelligent choices.  
IMHO-Any Taxation is theft. If the Fair Tax is implemented, we would still have the income tax. We would then have both…. if the national government eliminated all income taxes it would still be taking in way too much money, enough for a very bloated government.
The 16th Amendment needs to be repealed along with any income taxes.
The answer is simply, excise taxes, tariffs, duties, import fees, and etc. The income tax only accounts for about 40% of revenues, and if we reduced spending to 1997 levels, we could eliminate the income tax and replace it with nothing. That's how much the Federal Gov't has grown, 40% over the last 11 or so years. If we got the gov't back to Constitutional limits, they'd have a fabulous surplus just on the excise, tariffs, duties, and fees.
Any direct tax is an attack on the sovereignty of the individual, if we are taxed a % of income, by implication; the citizen is obligated to disclose his income to the government, thereby making it public information. Even a poll tax leads to abominations like mandatory federal ID, which is the same as personal registration.
My basic premise if that I do not trust the government one iota and do not trust what they label fair. Nothing that they do is fair, it only becomes suspicious to me.
PS- most of these posts show me how people are pre-conditioned to accepting taxation. What is scaring me here- is that some of you are getting all excited over any tax..... No matter what they decide to call it    :banghead:
Title: Re: Obama plans for health care delay, new jobs bill
Post by: Texacon on December 26, 2009, 12:09:49 PM
The term "fair" is subjective!
How about zero tax?  That's my resolution.  The government ran before 1913 without any income tax.  How about they put out bonds that people want to invest in because they will yield a legitimate return.  How about the government run itself like a business that profits from intelligent choices. 
IMHO-Any Taxation is theft. If the Fair Tax is implemented, we would still have the income tax. We would then have both…. if the national government eliminated all income taxes it would still be taking in way too much money, enough for a very bloated government.
The 16th Amendment needs to be repealed along with any income taxes.
The answer is simply, excise taxes, tariffs, duties, import fees, and etc. The income tax only accounts for about 40% of revenues, and if we reduced spending to 1997 levels, we could eliminate the income tax and replace it with nothing. That's how much the Federal Gov't has grown, 40% over the last 11 or so years. If we got the gov't back to Constitutional limits, they'd have a fabulous surplus just on the excise, tariffs, duties, and fees.
Any direct tax is an attack on the sovereignty of the individual, if we are taxed a % of income, by implication; the citizen is obligated to disclose his income to the government, thereby making it public information. Even a poll tax leads to abominations like mandatory federal ID, which is the same as personal registration.
My basic premise if that I do not trust the government one iota and do not trust what they label fair. Nothing that they do is fair, it only becomes suspicious to me.
PS- most of these posts show me how people are pre-conditioned to accepting taxation. What is scaring me here- is that some of you are getting all excited over any tax..... No matter what they decide to call it    :banghead:


Good post.

KC
Title: Re: Obama plans for health care delay, new jobs bill
Post by: bkg on December 26, 2009, 01:11:45 PM
Except the premise that the "fair tax" is such labeled by the gov't is completely inaccurate.
Title: Re: Obama plans for health care delay, new jobs bill
Post by: docstew on December 26, 2009, 02:37:00 PM
Except the premise that the "fair tax" is such labeled by the gov't is completely inaccurate.

Ok, this will be my last post on this in this thread.  If someone wishes to discuss further, we can start a thread in economics.

The Fairtax is not now, nor has it ever been, something that the Federal gov't has proposed.  It is a proposal that was developed by a group of private citizens who hired several leading economists and told them "If you could start a taxation system from a blank sheet of paper, how would you do it?"  It has been endorsed as better for the economy in terms of incentivizing work and disincentivizing illegal activity by over 200 economists at many different institutions.  Part of the legislation to enact the Fairtax abolishes income taxes, although an amendment to repeal the 16th would be necessary to keep it from coming back.
Title: Re: Obama plans for health care delay, new jobs bill
Post by: Carl on December 26, 2009, 02:48:56 PM
Talking about changing the tax system is one of those fun to do but never going to happen things.

As long as everyone realizes that then it is cool but if anyone thinks politicians are going to kill the golden goose they are not realistic.
Title: Re: Obama plans for health care delay, new jobs bill
Post by: bkg on December 26, 2009, 03:12:24 PM
Ok, this will be my last post on this in this thread.  If someone wishes to discuss further, we can start a thread in economics.

The Fairtax is not now, nor has it ever been, something that the Federal gov't has proposed.  It is a proposal that was developed by a group of private citizens who hired several leading economists and told them "If you could start a taxation system from a blank sheet of paper, how would you do it?"  It has been endorsed as better for the economy in terms of incentivizing work and disincentivizing illegal activity by over 200 economists at many different institutions.  Part of the legislation to enact the Fairtax abolishes income taxes, although an amendment to repeal the 16th would be necessary to keep it from coming back.

Exactly correct. Which is why PL is, once again, completely incorrect in her statement.
Title: Re: Obama plans for health care delay, new jobs bill
Post by: Patriot Lady on December 26, 2009, 06:25:05 PM
Except the premise that the "fair tax" is such labeled by the gov't is completely inaccurate.
I reread my post over and over and I cannot find the part that you are alluding to. I never said who the author of the fairtax was. I know that it is Americans for Fair Taxation. That was not my point. Actually, it is not the point at all.