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Current Events => General Discussion => Topic started by: txted on December 23, 2009, 12:04:42 AM

Title: How are we going to handle obamacare?
Post by: txted on December 23, 2009, 12:04:42 AM
I fully expect the Senate to vote the Obamacare bill out of the Senate and over to the house to restructure both bills into one. I don't have any expectations that the bill will stall in the house. I expect the Senate to rubber stamp the new house bill and send it to Obama for his signature. At that point I believe the American people are really screwed for a lot of reasons.

One immediate problem will be availability of physicians to care for the expanded patient base. I am curious how many physicians from other countries will remain in the United States with socialized medicine. I listened to the president of the American Medical Association say recently that we already have a physician shortage in the U.S. but they support Obamacare anyhow.

I am curious about how physicians operate in states other than Texas. I don't know if a uniform method or code of practice exists for all states, or does each state establish its distinct rules. In Texas, we have the option of visiting a specialist for care (primary care physicians are slowly or quickly disappearing) or visiting a "Nurse Practitioner" or "Physicians Assistant" clinic. Both professions have diagnostic and treatment authority for primary care. They practice under the professional guidance of a licensed physician, but it is not necessary for the physician to be on premises. They also write prescriptions for the physician. I live in a small town which has both a Physicians Assistant clinic and a Nurse Practitioner clinic. I know both practices have legal limitations, but I don't know what they are. In both cases the actual physicians office is probably 40 miles away. Do other states have the same type of medical clinic availability?

I believe when Obamacare is up and running, we will need to expand the authority of the practitioners and assistants to have the same treatment authority as todays primary care physician. They can redesignate them as "certified or licensed medical specialists". They will need to be able to practice medicine without the requirement that they are supervised by a physician. They should have legal limitations on the type of treatments they can provide as well as limitations on the type of prescriptions they can write. Conditions which do not fall under their allowed treatments, must by law be referred to a specialist. The exception to that rule will be dependent on the availability of a specialist for treatment.

I have no doubt that physicians groups will fight any expansion of treatment authority to the death. I simply see no other way to expand medical care to all.

What do you think?

txted
Title: Re: How are we going to handle obamacare?
Post by: GOP Congress on December 23, 2009, 01:35:34 AM
I realize you are looking for specifics, but first things first: This is, frankly, not so much a Health Care bill, but a bill that puts out the building blocks for fundamentally changing ALL aspects of Americans' lives.

To be blunt, the bill is nothing more than intentionally-produced crap. But it represents far more than just a destruction of our health care system.

If allowed to stand, this bill will represent the official death blow to American capitalism and individual rights. December 24, 2009, will be refered to as such. If July 4, 1776 is the birth day, then this Thursday will represent the final day of this country as we know it under the Declaration of Independence, and the subsequent Constitution.

However...

I don't believe that this bill will be allowed to stand. Quite simply, this is nothing but a photo-op, a signature piece to represent America's greatest lurch to the left in history. But until the 2010 elections are held, this day can go either way.

You talk about specifics in your very pertinent and precipitous questions. The problem is that the CONFUSION of the bill is PRECISELY what the democrats want. They want to be able to take all existing methods of accountability, specialist assignments, treatment authority, and other information that you present. And I've one of the few people who've actually read the bill from what sources I could obtain them from, and it's flat out IMPOSSIBLE to come up with ANY SEMBLANCE of realty.

Which cements in my mind that his has LITTLE to do with health, but MUCH to do with government control, and EVEN GREATER to do with economic theft from the producers to the thieves.

In short, this is not a Health Care bill. This is, without question, closer to being called The American Socialist Act of 2009 more than anything to do with dispensing aspirins.

Again, I know you are looking for specifics. Such specifics are impossible to ascertain. The reasoning why they are impossible to ascertain is deliberate. So I can't help you in any way there. You MAY get some semblance of new protocols, but I ddfy ANYONE to tell me what those protocols actually mean until they try to implement it.
Title: Re: How are we going to handle obamacare?
Post by: Carl on December 23, 2009, 06:40:44 AM
What will happen within a year or two is the increased burden on the states to pick up the cost of the new medicaid recipients will drive local and state taxes to the point where the middle class will be effectively reduced to poverty.
The outcry will be met with more government control to "ease" the burden with a complete takeover by the 2012 elections so that O can run against whoever by saying he/she wants to take away your health care.

Just my guess and if right as GOP just said the logistics of the bill matter little as they are only temporary.
Title: Re: How are we going to handle obamacare?
Post by: rich_t on December 23, 2009, 07:32:03 AM
Quote
Which cements in my mind that his has LITTLE to do with health, but MUCH to do with government control, and EVEN GREATER to do with economic theft from the producers to the thieves.

Folks,

Take a look at the federal legislation passed in the last 4 decades or so.  The majority of it has been about establishing more governmental control of the lives of the people. 

Hell, even the SCOTUS has lost it's freaking mind by allowing emminent domain to take private property for non-public use.

It's been going on in dribs and drabs and small nibbles.  This time they are going for a big bite and it has folks upset.  Well guess what? 

They should have been upset all along and fighting back.

But no... the American public in it's apathy has allowed the government to reach the point it has.  It is good that at least a segment of the public is starting to wake up, but I can't help but wonder if it's too litte and too late. 

As for me, I am doing the best I can to prepare for the anarchy that is sure to come unless a majority of the public wakes the hell up and starts to take their country back from the royal families in DC.

We have ourselves to blame and it's up to us to fix it.  If it's not too late.
Title: Re: How are we going to handle obamacare?
Post by: bkg on December 23, 2009, 08:07:35 AM
mark my words... you are going to see a massive increase in suicide after this goes through. it will be the only way some folks will know how to "cope" with what is happening. both those who are in pain and those who simply have lost the will to live through communist reign.
Title: Re: How are we going to handle obamacare?
Post by: IassaFTots on December 23, 2009, 08:10:15 AM
Folks,

Take a look at the federal legislation passed in the last 4 decades or so.  The majority of it has been about establishing more governmental control of the lives of the people. 

Hell, even the SCOTUS has lost it's freaking mind by allowing emminent domain to take private property for non-public use.

It's been going on in dribs and drabs and small nibbles.  This time they are going for a big bite and it has folks upset.  Well guess what? 

They should have been upset all along and fighting back.

But no... the American public in it's apathy has allowed the government to reach the point it has.  It is good that at least a segment of the public is starting to wake up, but I can't help but wonder if it's too litte and too late. 

As for me, I am doing the best I can to prepare for the anarchy that is sure to come unless a majority of the public wakes the hell up and starts to take their country back from the royal families in DC.

We have ourselves to blame and it's up to us to fix it.  If it's not too late.

I couldn't have said it better myself.   :cheersmate:
Title: Re: How are we going to handle obamacare?
Post by: DumbAss Tanker on December 23, 2009, 09:04:38 AM
Realistically, where are the foreign docs going to go to get a better deal?  Anyplace else in the West already has some kind of socialized medicine, and going back to Mumbai isn't exactly an improvement in their circumstances.
In the really short term, I think we just have to accept being screwed and regroup for Congressional turnover and repeal before the benefits start being paid out and become embedded as Democrat Voter Crack.
Elections have consequences, including the 2008 primary process that gave us McCain, and we have to accept that and knuckle down to see it doesn't happen again in 2010 and 2012.
Title: Re: How are we going to handle obamacare?
Post by: txted on December 23, 2009, 09:34:28 AM
I agree with everything that has been said in the previous posts. If the bill makes it to the presidents desk and he signs it, questions of it's constitutionality are the only hope we have of stopping it. By the time it reaches the Supreme court, the news media and the citizens will be embroiled over questions of "card check" and "cap  & trade" legislation. That should get us to the 2010 elections and the possibility they can be stopped. If SCOSUS accepts the obamacare bill, at least parts of the bill will be declared unconstitutional. I believe SCOSUS will decline to hear the suit on the bill. I sincerely hope they will hear the case.

The very size of the bureaucracy and the structures to contain it will be massive. The federal government has never established a bureaucracy that actually cost what was projected. Once built and deployed, it will be like a gigantic cancer on the health of America. The only way to remove it will be to kill the patient.

Now, back to my question; how can the American medical industry restructure itself in order to accomodate the influx of new patients? Even if many of the foreign physicians don't elect to move somewhere else to practice, the influx of new physicians from foreign countries will either stop or slow down. Many currently practicing physicians who have saved a little money will elect to retire rather than practice assembly line medicine. When obamacare is in place and the gigantic bureacracy is up and running or stumbling along, what can be done to obtain decent medical care?

txted

Title: Re: How are we going to handle obamacare?
Post by: DumbAss Tanker on December 23, 2009, 10:01:38 AM
Quote
Even if many of the foreign physicians don't elect to move somewhere else to practice, the influx of new physicians from foreign countries will either stop or slow down.

I agree completely with that, I omitted going into that aspect in my previous post for the sake of brevity. 

The ones that are already here won't have greener pastures offshore, but by the same token we won't look nearly so green to anyone looking to build a lucrative career and with the liberty to go anywhere to start.  It makes more sense for them to go someplace else that's hard-over Socialist to take care of all their own family's baseline needs, but does not have the ulimited risk of loss and corresponding astronomical malpractice insurance costs that our unreformed tort law system has.

A new practitioner has better long-term career potential elsewhere, despite the high taxes that go with the full-bore Socialism.  We're rapidly headed to a point where our tax structure will not offer any advantage to offset the massive costs pushed onto the providers by our tort law system and noncompetitive medical insurance structure (Neither one of which are touched by the so-called HCR, since due to special interest ties Congress won't be fixing the things that actually ARE broken in our system, but instead will be 'Fixting' things that aren't).   
Title: Re: How are we going to handle obamacare?
Post by: Ladywinter on December 23, 2009, 10:16:18 AM
I agree with everything that has been said in the previous posts. If the bill makes it to the presidents desk and he signs it, questions of it's constitutionality are the only hope we have of stopping it. By the time it reaches the Supreme court, the news media and the citizens will be embroiled over questions of "card check" and "cap  & trade" legislation. That should get us to the 2010 elections and the possibility they can be stopped. If SCOSUS accepts the obamacare bill, at least parts of the bill will be declared unconstitutional. I believe SCOSUS will decline to hear the suit on the bill. I sincerely hope they will hear the case.

The very size of the bureaucracy and the structures to contain it will be massive. The federal government has never established a bureaucracy that actually cost what was projected. Once built and deployed, it will be like a gigantic cancer on the health of America. The only way to remove it will be to kill the patient.

Now, back to my question; how can the American medical industry restructure itself in order to accomodate the influx of new patients? Even if many of the foreign physicians don't elect to move somewhere else to practice, the influx of new physicians from foreign countries will either stop or slow down. Many currently practicing physicians who have saved a little money will elect to retire rather than practice assembly line medicine. When obamacare is in place and the gigantic bureacracy is up and running or stumbling along, what can be done to obtain decent medical care?

txted

I don't have any answer(s) for you either txted.  All that has been written in this thread, I completely agree with.  I have talked with my own private physician about the HC reform bill and he believes this will be the first  "hit" to America.  (Cap and Trade being the "final kill shot", and that's a whole new subject.)  

He plans to retire IF this HC reform bill debacle passes because he said he simply will not be able to afford keeping his practice up and running.  His words...  We both just took a deep breath at that point.  

I visualize this:  Long, long lines.  Making an appointment to be "seen" will take weeks.  Middle class America will not be able to handle the increase in premium costs, and we'll all end up in jail for lack of paying them.  The upside to this is, in jail not only will we get free food, free dental, free internet, free work-out rooms, etc.  BUT FREE MEDICAL... gawd  


Title: Re: How are we going to handle obamacare?
Post by: txted on December 23, 2009, 11:16:16 AM
I don't have any answer(s) for you either txted.  All that has been written in this thread, I completely agree with.  I have talked with my own private physician about the HC reform bill and he believes this will be the first  "hit" to America.  (Cap and Trade being the "final kill shot", and that's a whole new subject.)  

He plans to retire IF this HC reform bill debacle passes because he said he simply will not be able to afford keeping his practice up and running.  His words...  We both just took a deep breath at that point.  

I visualize this:  Long, long lines.  Making an appointment to be "seen" will take weeks.  Middle class America will not be able to handle the increase in premium costs, and we'll all end up in jail for lack of paying them.  The upside to this is, in jail not only will we get free food, free dental, free internet, free work-out rooms, etc.  BUT FREE MEDICAL... gawd  

One good aspect of the jail option will be the fact that when all of middle America is in prison, our masters will no longer have to be concerned about the racial imbalance that currently exists in prison. :banghead:

txted
Title: Re: How are we going to handle obamacare?
Post by: DefiantSix on December 23, 2009, 11:21:33 AM
One good aspect of the jail option will be the fact that when all of middle America is in prison, our masters will no longer have to be concerned about the racial imbalance that currently exists in prison. :banghead:

txted

I really don't want to come out sounding like some rabid, foaming at the mouth revolutionary, but if Lord Ø's minions are going to drop me in prison anyway, then *******it, the least I can do is to make it worth my while, and worthy of their best efforts.  Somehow, I'm just going to have to make myself the biggest pain in the ass Big Brotha has had this week.
Title: Re: How are we going to handle obamacare?
Post by: Oceander on December 23, 2009, 11:23:06 AM
(http://i758.photobucket.com/albums/xx221/B_Oceander/Obamacare/Obama_Slamma.jpg)
Title: Re: How are we going to handle obamacare?
Post by: thundley4 on December 23, 2009, 11:23:45 AM
One good aspect of the jail option will be the fact that when all of middle America is in prison, our masters will no longer have to be concerned about the racial imbalance that currently exists in prison. :banghead:

txted

I had read somewhere that penalties over and above the 2% tax on income had been done away with.  Since the IRS is going to be the enforcement arm for mandated insurance, they didn't see a need to add on other penalties I guess.  OTOH, the IRS could still throw your ass in jail for tax evasion, it just wouldn't be tied to the HCR bill.
Title: Re: How are we going to handle obamacare?
Post by: Oceander on December 23, 2009, 11:24:07 AM
(http://i758.photobucket.com/albums/xx221/B_Oceander/Obamacare/Obamacare_or_Jail_sm.jpg)
Title: Re: How are we going to handle obamacare?
Post by: Oceander on December 23, 2009, 11:27:20 AM
I had read somewhere that penalties over and above the 2% tax on income had been done away with.  Since the IRS is going to be the enforcement arm for mandated insurance, they didn't see a need to add on other penalties I guess.  OTOH, the IRS could still throw your ass in jail for tax evasion, it just wouldn't be tied to the HCR bill.

Which suggests that, when it comes right down to it, they won't have the cojones to put their money where their mouths are, and that the best way to bring the whole b.s. crashing to the ground is for every patriotic American to simply refuse to pay the Obamatax, and refuse to settle with the IRS when they assess it as a deficiency - the IRS would end up with so many cases in the Collection Division that they would simply be swamped and unable to collect anything, and the public outcry over, e.g., seizing houses and bank accounts and businesses to pay the Obamatax would make the public outcry that got us the Taxpayer Bill of Rights back in 1998 look like a pro-IRS demonstration by comparison.
Title: Re: How are we going to handle obamacare?
Post by: txted on December 23, 2009, 11:46:29 AM
Which suggests that, when it comes right down to it, they won't have the cojones to put their money where their mouths are, and that the best way to bring the whole b.s. crashing to the ground is for every patriotic American to simply refuse to pay the Obamatax, and refuse to settle with the IRS when they assess it as a deficiency - the IRS would end up with so many cases in the Collection Division that they would simply be swamped and unable to collect anything, and the public outcry over, e.g., seizing houses and bank accounts and businesses to pay the Obamatax would make the public outcry that got us the Taxpayer Bill of Rights back in 1998 look like a pro-IRS demonstration by comparison.

And even advising your fellow Americans to not pay their taxes can get you a term in prison. You insurrectionist.

txted
Title: Re: How are we going to handle obamacare?
Post by: Carl on December 23, 2009, 12:02:22 PM
Which suggests that, when it comes right down to it, they won't have the cojones to put their money where their mouths are, and that the best way to bring the whole b.s. crashing to the ground is for every patriotic American to simply refuse to pay the Obamatax, and refuse to settle with the IRS when they assess it as a deficiency - the IRS would end up with so many cases in the Collection Division that they would simply be swamped and unable to collect anything, and the public outcry over, e.g., seizing houses and bank accounts and businesses to pay the Obamatax would make the public outcry that got us the Taxpayer Bill of Rights back in 1998 look like a pro-IRS demonstration by comparison.

Unless you are self employed you won`t have a chance...called withholding,I have no doubt an employer will be required to know your insurance status.
You can lie I guess and say you do but also have no doubt proof of such will be part of the tax return.

Not to be a wet rag on that issue but it will not be in our hands.
Title: Re: How are we going to handle obamacare?
Post by: thundley4 on December 23, 2009, 01:39:46 PM
Unless you are self employed you won`t have a chance...called withholding,I have no doubt an employer will be required to know your insurance status.
You can lie I guess and say you do but also have no doubt proof of such will be part of the tax return.

Not to be a wet rag on that issue but it will not be in our hands.

That is why I think they put the enforcement in the hands of the IRS.  The IRS already has the ability to attach liens to wages, savings and whatever else.
Title: Re: How are we going to handle obamacare?
Post by: Baruch Menachem on December 23, 2009, 03:16:14 PM
Assuming it does get to his desk.   He has only 3 votes in the house as a cushion, and there are several deal killing provisions in the senate to the house members.   It may just fail conference
Title: Re: How are we going to handle obamacare?
Post by: DumbAss Tanker on December 23, 2009, 03:26:16 PM
Assuming it does get to his desk.   He has only 3 votes in the house as a cushion, and there are several deal killing provisions in the senate to the house members.   It may just fail conference

Don't count on that, the close vote in the House was a dance of carefully-staged pageantry, with Pope Nancy passing out the indulgences from a jealously-guarded and carefully-counted supply.  If it comes to it, some of the previous Dem 'Nays' will be expected to pay up if it becomes necessary for her to call in the marker on them, and throw themselves on the spikes for the good of the Dear Leader and his Prosperity and Health Plan. 
Title: Re: How are we going to handle obamacare?
Post by: bkg on December 23, 2009, 04:13:52 PM
Don't count on that, the close vote in the House was a dance of carefully-staged pageantry, with Pope Nancy passing out the indulgences from a jealously-guarded and carefully-counted supply.  If it comes to it, some of the previous Dem 'Nays' will be expected to pay up if it becomes necessary for her to call in the marker on them, and throw themselves on the spikes for the good of the Dear Leader and his Prosperity and Health Plan. 

Agreed
Title: Re: How are we going to handle obamacare?
Post by: ColonialMarine0431 on December 23, 2009, 04:39:21 PM
Don't count on that, the close vote in the House was a dance of carefully-staged pageantry, with Pope Nancy passing out the indulgences from a jealously-guarded and carefully-counted supply.  If it comes to it, some of the previous Dem 'Nays' will be expected to pay up if it becomes necessary for her to call in the marker on them, and throw themselves on the spikes for the good of the Dear Leader and his Prosperity and Health Plan. 

So prostitution is legal in D.C. now. Whodathunkit.
Title: Re: How are we going to handle obamacare?
Post by: bkg on December 23, 2009, 04:41:04 PM
So prostitution is legal in D.C. now. Whodathunkit.

Been legal (or rather, not enforced) for years... It's a thriving industry...
Title: Re: How are we going to handle obamacare?
Post by: DefiantSix on December 23, 2009, 04:47:42 PM
So prostitution is legal in D.C. now. Whodathunkit.

What?  Are you kidding?  DC's Capitol Hill is the site of the country's oldest continuously operational whorehouse.
Title: Re: How are we going to handle obamacare?
Post by: ColonialMarine0431 on December 23, 2009, 04:51:29 PM
What?  Are you kidding?  DC's Capitol Hill is the site of the country's oldest continuously operational whorehouse.

Yes. But now it's so blatant.  :hammer: The politicians don't even PRETEND anymore that their votes aren't for sale.
Title: Re: How are we going to handle obamacare?
Post by: Oceander on December 23, 2009, 04:52:17 PM
Unless you are self employed you won`t have a chance...called withholding,I have no doubt an employer will be required to know your insurance status.
You can lie I guess and say you do but also have no doubt proof of such will be part of the tax return.

Not to be a wet rag on that issue but it will not be in our hands.

Of course it is, overstate your withholding allowances so that it balances out.  In general, you won't be questioned on the number of withholding allowances you claim unless you claim 10 or more.
Title: Re: How are we going to handle obamacare?
Post by: thundley4 on December 23, 2009, 05:04:23 PM
Of course it is, overstate your withholding allowances so that it balances out.  In general, you won't be questioned on the number of withholding allowances you claim unless you claim 10 or more.

I'm pretty sure that they can get you for that also. They'd most likely investigate why the number of dependents shot up for someone.
Title: Re: How are we going to handle obamacare?
Post by: Oceander on December 23, 2009, 05:20:07 PM
I'm pretty sure that they can get you for that also. They'd most likely investigate why the number of dependents shot up for someone.

No, not really.  I switched jobs mid-year once, back when I was earning well over the max. amount for the employment tax, and would have ended up basically paying double the payroll taxes if I hadn't used the withholding allowances to manage my total tax withholdings to avoid giving Uncle Sugar too much of a free loan.  I probably filed four or five different W-4s, and ended up claiming additional withholding allowances for a total of about 6 (back when I was single), and never heard anything from anyone.

The IRS regulations used to require employers to send in W-4s that claimed 10 or more withholding allowances to a special IRS office, and gave employers the incentive to ignore those withholding allowances (which they can do), but those regulations got dropped a while back.

That being said, claiming 20 withholding allowances will probably trigger something somewheres, but in general, most of us can probably manage to reduce income tax withholding enough to offset the Obamatax without triggering any sort of an automated red-flag.
Title: Re: How are we going to handle obamacare?
Post by: thundley4 on December 23, 2009, 05:28:38 PM
Quote
If you deliberately and knowingly make false claims on your Form W-4 in an attempt to reduce or eliminate proper tax withholding, you may have to pay a penalty of $500 if:

You make statements or claim allowances on your W-4 that reduce the amount of tax withheld.
You have no reasonable basis for the statments or allowances at the time you fill out the W-4.
There is also a criminal penalty for supplying false information on your W-4. The penalty upon conviction can be a fine of up to $1,000 or up to one year imprisonment, or both.

If the mandates are passed, I'll bet the IRS will be targeting people that change their W-4.
Title: Re: How are we going to handle obamacare?
Post by: Carl on December 23, 2009, 05:31:37 PM
Of course it is, overstate your withholding allowances so that it balances out.  In general, you won't be questioned on the number of withholding allowances you claim unless you claim 10 or more.
I am sort of pragmatic and have a notion that there will be or are more then a few redundant measures to check one.

Citizen...list your carrier and policy number.
Carrier provide a list and SS number of all insured.

Can`t imagine it is that difficult to have software to cross check and presume that is what is done now with 1099s filed on a person.
Title: Re: How are we going to handle obamacare?
Post by: Oceander on December 23, 2009, 05:34:02 PM
If the mandates are passed, I'll bet the IRS will be targeting people that change their W-4.

The regulations would have to be changed, and that won't happen for at least the first year, which is precisely when this tactic needs to be put into place.
Title: Re: How are we going to handle obamacare?
Post by: GOP Congress on December 23, 2009, 05:37:52 PM
In general, I'm not thrilled at the idea of protesting through currently illegal tax withholding. More importantly, I believe the time is right for a proper full-frontal attack on totalitarianism through the elections. More importantly, though, is for the politicians to communicate to their consituency on why such taxes are oppressive, and we have a far better chance in the upcoming cycle.

But the tax withholding scheme, while emotionally popular, will have even less effect on policy than third party political organizations, for promoting our ideals.
Title: Re: How are we going to handle obamacare?
Post by: Lacarnut on December 23, 2009, 05:40:57 PM
If the mandates are passed, I'll bet the IRS will be targeting people that change their W-4.

Plus those in business that incomes drop drastically. We could call it the Geithner effect or working shorter hours.  
Title: Re: How are we going to handle obamacare?
Post by: Oceander on December 23, 2009, 05:46:28 PM
In general, I'm not thrilled at the idea of protesting through currently illegal tax withholding. More importantly, I believe the time is right for a proper full-frontal attack on totalitarianism through the elections. More importantly, though, is for the politicians to communicate to their consituency on why such taxes are oppressive, and we have a far better chance in the upcoming cycle.

But the tax withholding scheme, while emotionally popular, will have even less effect on policy than third party political organizations, for promoting our ideals.

Possibly, possibly not.  It all depends on how many people are willing to put their necks on the line to do it - because all of the first lot, and many of the rest, will be assessed deficiencies and will have to run the whole gauntlet of collections and whatnot.  Still, it could be managed if enough people participated.  Another means to help mitigate the potential negative consequences would be to leave a deficiency in your withholding, and then to make what's called a "deposit in the nature of a cash bond" - which basically stops the interest on a deficiency running, but doesn't get counted as a payment of the tax, and doesn't permit the Treasury to just take the money and run.
Title: Re: How are we going to handle obamacare?
Post by: GOP Congress on December 23, 2009, 06:12:16 PM
Quote
It all depends on how many people are willing to put their necks on the line to do it - because all of the first lot, and many of the rest, will be assessed deficiencies and will have to run the whole gauntlet of collections and whatnot.

Well, that's a wee bit complicated for me to be honest, not to mention that the fact I would have to spend an inordinate amount of time devising my own involvement, lining up my attorneys, and ultimately risking my freedom despite our ultimate morally superior position, is not exactly a good ROI. It makes for good theater, but lousy policy.

But think of all the amount of effort it takes to do all of this tax evasion. If everyone who would consider such a scheme would instead put the same effort to finding and running candidates for office who would eliminate this nonsense in the first place, it would have a far greater effect, and frankly, more satisfying in the long run. Keep in mind that we STILL have to perform this step after the mass arrests in the first place.
Title: Re: How are we going to handle obamacare?
Post by: Carl on December 23, 2009, 06:25:57 PM
An anecdotal experience for what ever that is worth.

Back in 1992 (I think) father was still alive and I claimed him as a dependent (lifetime farmer so SS was not a lot and unable to drive in his mid 80s etc.)
I was basically providing for the finances of the home.
He sold off a 5 acre lot for not a lot of money but enough that for that year the deduction was disallowed.
I didn`t realize that but the IRS found it and told me.
Oh well..paid the amount due and was informed that the state would be calling too.

They had 3 years and 3 months if I remember correctly to notify me of tax deficiency or short of an audit the time would run out on collecting the couple hundred bucks.
Being a obstinate sort I figured what the heck,let em come looking.

Two weeks from the deadline I got the notice.
I presume their was some mechanism in place either computer or bodily to review all such issues.
Paid that bill and have gone on with life but the bottom line is that anyone that thinks they are going to beat the IRS..good luck with that.
Title: Re: How are we going to handle obamacare?
Post by: bkg on December 23, 2009, 07:09:25 PM
If the mandates are passed, I'll bet the IRS will be targeting people that change their W-4.

Didn't Obama spend $300M on additional IRS agents? Does anyone really think it was to go after the Swiss bank accounts? It was laying the foundation.
Title: Re: How are we going to handle obamacare?
Post by: thundley4 on December 23, 2009, 07:29:47 PM
Didn't Obama spend $300M on additional IRS agents? Does anyone really think it was to go after the Swiss bank accounts? It was laying the foundation.

Seems like this has been in the planning stages for months.

Quote
The IRS is reportedly facing a 25% revenue shortfall for the 2008 tax year—that's in addition to the current $345 billion tax gap. The Obama administration announced in May 2009 that it would like to hire 800 additional IRS agents and quadruple funding for tax compliance efforts over the next five years. All the facts point to a drastic increase in personnel and operating budgets aimed at collecting additional tax revenue in 2009 and beyond.
LegalZoom (http://www.legalzoom.com/legal-articles/tax-problem.html)

Then there is a recent revision to an Executive Order regarding Interpol by Lord Zero which expands their powers and authority on US soil, which could be nothing more than allowing interpol to go after tax payers that overseas shelters.
Title: Re: How are we going to handle obamacare?
Post by: Oceander on December 23, 2009, 07:36:20 PM
Just so everyone's clear on the concept, increasing your withholding allowances is not the same thing as claiming fake dependents (which I would never, ever, in a million years suggest anyone do), nor is it tax evasion.
Title: Re: How are we going to handle obamacare?
Post by: bkg on December 23, 2009, 07:39:05 PM
Just so everyone's clear on the concept, increasing your withholding allowances is not the same thing as claiming fake dependents (which I would never, ever, in a million years suggest anyone do), nor is it tax evasion.

I wish we had to write a check at the end of the year... Rather, the week before election day.
Title: Re: How are we going to handle obamacare?
Post by: Carl on December 23, 2009, 07:42:53 PM
I wish we had to write a check at the end of the year... Rather, the week before election day.

That is part of why withholding came about...never going to put that horse back in the barn.
Title: Re: How are we going to handle obamacare?
Post by: bkg on December 23, 2009, 07:44:16 PM
That is part of why withholding came about...never going to put that horse back in the barn.

I know. I agree. I weep.
Title: Re: How are we going to handle obamacare?
Post by: Oceander on December 23, 2009, 08:09:44 PM
I wish we had to write a check at the end of the year... Rather, the week before election day.

Actually, in many respects, withholding did make it easier for a lot of people; it is a sad fact of life that many people cannot budget a reserve for future expenses such as taxes.

That being said, withholding is like a firearm - a device that can be either a really useful tool, or a deadly weapon, depending solely on the intent behind the hands that use it.
Title: Re: How are we going to handle obamacare?
Post by: DefiantSix on December 24, 2009, 10:46:09 AM
Quote
Time for Drastic Measures (http://www.examiner.com/examiner/x-17412-Macon-County-Conservative-Examiner~y2009m12d24-Time-for-drastic-measures)
December 24, 7:46 AM
Macon County Conservative Examiner
Robert Moon

Now that we have been painted into a corner with the passage of this Constitution-trampling explosion of government, we have only 4 options left before things get ugly:

1) Vote them out in 2010. This option requires much patience and will not actually mean anything unless those elected actually reverse all the spending, bailouts and takeovers.

Most likely, Democrats will be punished for a few years while Republicans ride the tidal wave of public outrage into office, at which point they will throw us some symbolic scraps from the table, rather than making a serious commitment to uprooting federal tyranny. It is absolutely critical that we get actual conservatives into office and eject the RINOs in 2010.

2) Legal challenge in the courts. There is a chance that the Supreme Court could reverse this law based on the "Commerce Clause" debate (a few states being bribed and blackmailed into submission at the expense of all the others).

3) Nullification. This is where states stand up for their 10th Amendment rights and declare that, since this law is blatantly unconstitutional, they refuse to acknowledge that it was even passed.

And no, the Founders never intended for the federal government to be the sole determiner of the size and scope of its own power. State nullification was always intended as a natural check against federal encroachments.

4) Civil disobedience (the only option that requires no waiting). The politicians are now coming home to face their constituents. Escalate things by organizing a disruptive demonstration, like a sit-in.

While government creates 111 new federal bureaucracies and destroys the free market system that 84% of us are happy with, the politicians have exempted themselves from the rationed, inferior care the rest of us are left with. But they cannot exempt themselves from us.

As Thomas Jefferson wrote in the Declaration of Independence, when government becomes adversarial to the people, it is both the right and the responsibility of the people to rise up and "alter or abolish" that government. Government gets its power from us.

It is time to step up and take back what is ours.

An excellent editorial on the subject.