The Conservative Cave
Current Events => The DUmpster => Topic started by: franksolich on November 06, 2009, 07:25:38 AM
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http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=287x8051
Oh my.
We all know what the primitives are jibber-jabbering about at the moment; in fact, I'm so familiar with Skins's island and the primitives that I could probably write a script of what they're saying, and there wouldn't be but a dime's worth of difference between my script and what the primitives are saying.
So no point in loading up the boat with predictable bonfires.
Anyway, this, from the grouchy old primitive:
NNN0LHI (1000+ posts) Thu Nov-05-09 05:05 PM
Original message
Is there an electrician in the house?
I need to know if I were to "properly" hook up this battery:
http://www.amazon.com/MK-Cycle-Battery-Backup-Pumps/dp/...
after which the grouchy old primitive lists the specifications
First will it work? Second if it will work about how long would the battery last in this application?
If it helps I called Zoeller and they told me when the pump first starts it requires about an 1800 Watt initial surge and then uses about 1080 Watts to run normally after that so I think I am OK there?
Wash. state Desk Jet (1000+ posts) Thu Nov-05-09 05:40 PM
Response to Original message
1. Why don't you just invest in a gas fuled generator and have a power back up for your intire house?
Those generators can put out both 110v and 220v. cost between $800.00 and $1,200.00.
As to how long the battery would last will depend on how often the pump kicks on and off.
Simply put if you left your lights on in your car,given your car doesn't have a auto shut off ,how long would your battery put out juice without the motar running ? It's just a battery.
NNN0LHI (1000+ posts) Thu Nov-05-09 08:07 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. I am not looking for a solution that lasts a long time with this system
I have a gasoline generator with a switch box for my six essential circuits including the sump pump for extended outages. But it is not automatic I need to be home first of all. Then I have to drag it out of the garage and hook it up to the switch box. Then I need to go out to the shed to get gas to put into the generator because I won't keep gas in the generators gas tank because I heat my attached garage with a vent-less heater with an open flame for a pilot. If it wasn't attached to the house it wouldn't be so bad. But I don't want any tragedies.
Then usually after going through all that the power comes back on about ten minutes later. Most of the power outages here last a few hours or so.
So I am looking for a temporary fix here. A stop gap measure. Something to get me through the night if possible without my crawlspace flooding. Then in the morning if the power is still out I will get the gas generator going.
I have checked into the automatic generators but I can't afford one.
So I need a cheaper way for some peace of mind.
I was of looking for the total numbers of minutes or hours this pump would run continuously on battery power? I can take the cycle rate and divide that into that number. But I do know it comes on for 4 or 5 seconds about every ten minutes when I get the heaviest of rains.
Kolesar (1000+ posts) Thu Nov-05-09 08:28 PM
Response to Original message
3. If the battery had 94 Amp*hours, and the load was 9.4 Amps, it would last 10 hours
If there were no "conversion losses". I am sure that the inverter is at least 50% efficient, so you would have at least five hours at that efficiency.
Our house's sump pump does not run continuously when it is raining. If your pump ran 50/50, the battery could run it for 10 hours.
The power required by the pump is 9.4A x 120V => 1128 Watts. Your 1250 Watt inverter has enough power.
NNN0LHI (1000+ posts) Thu Nov-05-09 09:10 PM
Response to Reply #3
5. Well I think that is amazing
That is all I should ever need here. My pump usually cycles on about every five minutes for 4 or 5 seconds during the heaviest rains I have experienced here. So this thing could keep my crawl dry for days at that rate.
The Inefficiency rating for the inverter is 1.2 according to the owners manual.
Here is an equation the manual gives to estimate the battery amp-hours required:
45 DC Amps X 5 Hrs. Run time X 1.2 Inefficiency Rating = 270 Amp-Hours
Thank you for the information.
This will save me some sleepless nights.
The Bayer aspirin primitive:
cbayer (1000+ posts) Thu Nov-05-09 08:28 PM
Response to Original message
4. I think your initial surge is what's going to be the problem.
The pump will come on intermittently and require that surge every time it comes on, right? And the battery has no way to recharge between cycles. And every time it comes on, the inverter has to come on as well and has it's own energy drain on the battery.
I think it would work but for how long or how many cycles is the question.
I am not an electrician, but I live off of battery power and an inverter system for anything not 12 volt.
cbayer (1000+ posts) Thu Nov-05-09 09:44 PM
Response to Reply #4
6. One last thought. 12 volt pumps are widely available. Why not just run straight off the battery and skip the inverter?
NNN0LHI (1000+ posts) Thu Nov-05-09 09:50 PM
Response to Reply #6
7. The 12 Volt pumps all look made cheap to me
Usually low GPM too.
I am kind of sold on the Zoeller M98 Sump Pump. Great design. Last forever. Built like a tank. Half a HP. No drawbacks really.
That is my reasoning.
cbayer (1000+ posts) Thu Nov-05-09 10:03 PM
Response to Reply #7
8. Have you looked at marine pumps?
We have an on-demand pump in our bilge connected directly to our battery system. It is very reliable. Many a boat has been saved by these pumps.
I don't know much about the the other specs you are looking at, I just hate to put another piece of electrical equipment in a system where it's not needed. Just one more thing that can fail, in my experience.
And you need to factor in the energy needs of the inverter when you figure out how long it will work, which will require the services of poster above.
The defrocked warped primitive:
Warpy (1000+ posts) Thu Nov-05-09 10:22 PM
Response to Reply #8
9. Bilge and flooded basements are two different animals
I'd go for the hefty sump pump, the backup battery, and an inverter. Shoot, I'd go for the pump and a generator in case the power conks out because of whatever is causing the flooding. Batteries often have too short a useful life to get the water out of that basement if something drastic is happening.
cbayer (1000+ posts) Thu Nov-05-09 10:26 PM
Response to Reply #9
10. I'm curious as to how bilges and basements are different.
You got water, it needs to go.
Warpy (1000+ posts) Thu Nov-05-09 10:31 PM
Response to Reply #10
11. Sheer quantity of water.
Unless you've got a big hole in your bottom, you're not going to see the type of flooding that a big storm can cause in a basement.
The best fix is the permanent one, to figure out where the flooding is coming from and correct it. Since that's not always possible, you do need the hefty pump.
cbayer (1000+ posts) Thu Nov-05-09 10:47 PM
Response to Reply #11
12. I am seeing a lot of pumps at the westmarine site that have GPM ratings significantly higher than what he is looking at - some over 100 gals minute.
The question here seems to be what powers the pump, not anything else. A pump is a pump. My question is, why put an expensive, energy sapping piece of electronic equipment between the source of the power and what it needs to power?
The advantage to a marine system is that it is a 12 volt system. Or maybe I am missing something here.
Warpy (1000+ posts) Fri Nov-06-09 12:34 AM
Response to Reply #12
13. That's exactly why I'd go with an AC system and buy a backup generator if the area was prone to flooding.
Okay, which of the primitives are right?
Personally, given his nature, his negativity, his Hate, I wouldn't care if the grouchy old primitive's house got flooded clear up to the attic.
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This person lives in a house that is constantly flooding?
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He needs two damn good 8-D batteries wired parallel to have enough amps. .....better he should take a deep breathe when the water is over head deep.
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This person lives in a house that is constantly flooding?
Yeah, just south of Chicago, past the suburbs out into the small-town country of Illinois.
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They seem to have not taken into account that this pump uses more power at initial start-up in their estimate of how long it will last.
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I would get two golf cart batteries, a 12 VDC pump, and a solar charger. Put a double pole relay to switch systems when the AC power goes out. Pretty freaking easy and far more efficient.
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Why do the primitives make things so difficult? Just get something like this, and as above, a really good deep cycle battery. It's only for backup purposes, and the dummie is going out of his way to make things complicated. You can get a charger that will keep the battery up without overcharging.
http://www.northerntool.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/product_6970_4866_4866
More money, but even less complicated, is the automatic backup generator. You get a good large auto-start generator tied into the house with the automatic circuit switchers. When power is lost, it will automatically start and switch your house off the grid and onto the generator. We've had them in propane, so there's no mixing dummies and liquid fuel around pilot lights. You also remove the dummie plugging in cords while standing in a couple of inches of water.
The dummie wouldn't have to do anything after that, except make sure he keeps his backup fuel filled.
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Why are we giving so much sensible advice? It would be much preferable, in the event of a power outage, if the DUmmy were to simply lie down in his basement and drown.
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Why are we giving so much sensible advice? It would be much preferable, in the event of a power outage, if the DUmmy were to simply lie down in his basement and drown.
Well now, do you think for a minute a primitive's going to take honest and sincere advice from decent and civilized people?
I dunno.
The grouchy old primitive will probably do the exact opposite of what we suggest.
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I would get two golf cart batteries, a 12 VDC pump, and a solar charger. Put a double pole relay to switch systems when the AC power goes out. Pretty freaking easy and far more efficient.
:cheersmate: Exactly what I was thinking.