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Current Events => Politics => Topic started by: rich_t on November 01, 2009, 12:03:14 PM

Title: Is the Republic of United States Doomed?
Post by: rich_t on November 01, 2009, 12:03:14 PM
I ran across a Heinlein quote while rereading one of his books recently.  He says it better than I ever could:

Quote
"The America of today is a laboratory example if what can happen to democracies, what has eventually happened to all perfect democracies throughout history.  A perfect democracy, a 'warm body' democracy in which every adult may vote and all votes count equally, has no internal feedback for self-correction.  It depends solely on the wisdom and self-restaint of citizens... which is opposed by the folly and lack of  self-restraint of other citizens.  What is supposed to happen in a democracy is that each soveriegn citizen will always vote in public interest for the safety and welfare of all.  But what does happen is that he votes his own self-interest as he sees it... which for the majority translates as 'Bread and Circuses'.

Bread and Circuses is the cancer of democracy, the fatal disease for which there is no cure.  Democracy often works beautifully at first.  But once the state extends the franchise to every warm body, be he producer or parasite, that day marks the beginning of the end of the state.  For when the plebs discover that they can vote themselves bread and circuses without limit and that the productive members of the body politic cannot stop them, they will do so, until the state bleeds to death, or in it's weakened condition the state succums to an invader - the barbarians enter Rome."
[/b]

Heinlein published this particular book in 1985.

Do you folks agree or disagree with the above quote?  I agree with the quote, particularly the portion I bolded.

I am intersted in seeing what others think of the quote and the concepts it mentions.

Title: Re: Is the Republic of United States Doomed?
Post by: Mustang on November 01, 2009, 12:29:11 PM
Quote
For when the plebs discover that they can vote themselves bread and circuses without limit and that the productive members of the body politic cannot stop them, they will do so, until the state bleeds to death, or in it's weakened condition the state succums to an invader - the barbarians enter Rome."

As far as I am concerned we have two major enemies. Both Foreign and Domestic, equally as dangerous in its potential. Islamic terrorists and the Lord President Obamer.

If we don't defeat both enemies, by seriously bolstering our efforts on the WOT and defeating Obama, we will see the fall of Rome by barbarians again.

This is the reason I started my "the shit may hit the fan within 50 years" thread. Although it may come much sooner than expected.
Title: Re: Is the Republic of United States Doomed?
Post by: Rick on November 01, 2009, 01:20:40 PM
Do I believe Heinlein as quoted, yes. Do I believe the Republic is doomed, no. I see a glimmer of hope, an awaking of the masses. Which could be affirmed in next weeks elections, and can only grow next year.
Title: Re: Is the Republic of United States Doomed?
Post by: rich_t on November 01, 2009, 01:34:15 PM
Do I believe Heinlein as quoted, yes. Do I believe the Republic is doomed, no. I see a glimmer of hope, an awaking of the masses. Which could be affirmed in next weeks elections, and can only grow next year.

I don't share your optimism.  The current type of elected Republicans have proven that they aren't fit to lead either.  They controlled both Houses of Congress and the WH not too many years back.

What did they do with it? 

Did they repeal any liberal laws?  Nope.

Did they fix Social Security?  Nope.

Did they fix medicare/medicade?  Nope.

Did they pass any laws to help protect and defend citizen's liberties?  Not that I can recall.

Did they secure the borders agains the invasion of illegal immigrants?  Nope.

Both of the current major parties are merely opposite sides of the same coin.  Ultimately they are both about controlling the people instead of serving them.  They merely go about it using differetn tactics.  IMO.
Title: Re: Is the Republic of United States Doomed?
Post by: LC EFA on November 01, 2009, 03:24:15 PM
I don't share your optimism.  The current type of elected Republicans have proven that they aren't fit to lead either.  They controlled both Houses of Congress and the WH not too many years back.

What did they do with it? 

Did they repeal any liberal laws?  Nope.

Did they fix Social Security?  Nope.

Did they fix medicare/medicade?  Nope.

Did they pass any laws to help protect and defend citizen's liberties?  Not that I can recall.

Did they secure the borders agains the invasion of illegal immigrants?  Nope.

Both of the current major parties are merely opposite sides of the same coin.  Ultimately they are both about controlling the people instead of serving them.  They merely go about it using differetn tactics.  IMO.

Just IMO - but passing laws is not the way to defend liberties. Repealing laws is.

The republic in its present form may be in danger - because it has strayed so far from the initial design, but America will survive.

Four or even 8 years of totally incompetent leadership won't be the death bell. It will mean hardship and lots of work to get back on track.
Title: Re: Is the Republic of United States Doomed?
Post by: Mustang on November 01, 2009, 03:39:31 PM
Four or even 8 years of totally incompetent leadership won't be the death bell.

I don't believe Obama is incompetent.
He and his administration have a deliberate radical socialist agenda, with him being the fascist narcissist head in toe.
What may appear to be incompetent or nitivete actions is actually someone who has a socialist vision of his narcissistic image and hope that has never tested this policy in any shape or form in a executive position. Obama was given the most powerful executive position in the world, he never did anything with his life except graduate Harvard and run for president and write 2 autobiographies before he was even in his mid 40's (narcissist much?). In his mind, he cares about making America in his own image, so that he may be immortalized. Ego and worship is to this guy as interns was for Bill.

Healthcare is the first wedge, it's a gateway of the oppressive future.
Title: Re: Is the Republic of United States Doomed?
Post by: Rick on November 01, 2009, 05:38:37 PM
I don't share your optimism.  The current type of elected Republicans have proven that they aren't fit to lead either.  They controlled both Houses of Congress and the WH not too many years back.

What did they do with it?  

Did they repeal any liberal laws?  Nope.

Did they fix Social Security?  Nope.

Did they fix medicare/medicade?  Nope.

Did they pass any laws to help protect and defend citizen's liberties?  Not that I can recall.

Did they secure the borders agains the invasion of illegal immigrants?  Nope.

Both of the current major parties are merely opposite sides of the same coin.  Ultimately they are both about controlling the people instead of serving them.  They merely go about it using differetn tactics.  IMO.

Ah, but with people like Hoffman we are not getting the the same Rino type. The man talks the talk, we need to let him walk the walk.

 
Title: Re: Is the Republic of United States Doomed?
Post by: nakedliberty on November 01, 2009, 09:24:22 PM
I agree.  Even the hard working, tax paying members of society tend to vote for politicians that will grant them something that must be taken from someone else.  I don't know if it is inevitable, but in our multicultural, fractured society, gaining a consensus to stop the madness will be difficult at best.  I believe we are destined to eventually be a European style socialist state.  Not without some personal freedoms, but a shadow of what we once were.  Maybe we will be different in that most of Europe never had the level of freedom we once enjoyed (Heck, most of Europe never had the diminished freedom and liberty we enjoy today) and the genie is out of the bottle, so to speak and we will reverse course.  It will take a major change in direction and attitude and probably a leader on par with our greatest.
Title: Re: Is the Republic of United States Doomed?
Post by: deportliberals on November 02, 2009, 10:37:07 AM
The founders were well aware of that reality and tried to warn us.  The father of our constitution(Madison) warned about congress consolidating power to build a welfare state and Ben Franklin gave the same warning you just posted above...quoting:

 "I agree to this Constitution ... and I believe, further, that this is likely to be well administered for a course of years, and can only end in despotism, as other forms have done before it, when the people shall become so corrupted as to need despotic government, being incapable of any other."

Thanks to 76 years of unchecked lib-fascism(democrats), we have arrived at Franklin's warning.
Title: Re: Is the Republic of United States Doomed?
Post by: BadCat on November 02, 2009, 11:20:12 AM
This country is indeed doomed.

The current Communist in Chief is just the beginning, the real end of the country is coming as thousands of kids who were "educated" under No Child Left Behind hit the workforce.

There is an entire generation of complete idiots headed towards us and nothing can be done to stop it.
Title: Re: Is the Republic of United States Doomed?
Post by: nakedliberty on November 02, 2009, 02:34:47 PM
This country is indeed doomed.

The current Communist in Chief is just the beginning, the real end of the country is coming as thousands of kids who were "educated" under No Child Left Behind hit the workforce.

There is an entire generation of complete idiots headed towards us and nothing can be done to stop it.

I'm not as concerned about compete idiots as much as I am the intelligent ones that indoctrinated into the Liberal way of thinking in our public schools. They are the ones that will do us in.
Title: Re: Is the Republic of United States Doomed?
Post by: BadCat on November 02, 2009, 02:36:42 PM
I'm not as concerned about compete idiots as much as I am the intelligent ones that indoctrinated into the Liberal way of thinking in our public schools. They are the ones that will do us in.

They are indoctrinated...all of them.
And, there will be no engineers and scientists, no doctors...just a bunch of barely literate kids who thinks the world owes them everything.
Title: Re: Is the Republic of United States Doomed?
Post by: ColonialMarine0431 on November 02, 2009, 03:04:35 PM
What scares me is that most people believe we live in a democracy. WRONG. We live in a Republic. Major difference. A democracy is a system of mob rule. A Republic is a system of laws. Why aren't schools teaching this? Oh who am I kidding. The schools are run by libTURDs. Private school or military academy for my kids when I have them.
Title: Re: Is the Republic of United States Doomed?
Post by: Eupher on November 02, 2009, 03:13:14 PM
I think we're approaching the beginning of the end. Lord Zero won't actually sound the death knell for our country, but his antics will definitely have a hand in it.

I also think we didn't learn a damn thing from the folly of the bailouts and porkulus. That, and the further bailouts of GMAC and other corporations sucking at the public teat, will further complicate matters.

Despite the financial systems and safeguards that have been built into smoldering pile of shit called the Fed, I think our financial doom is closer than we think. The country, as we knew it, will gradually disappear.

In its place will be a country and bureaucracy very much akin to the Europeans.

It won't take long once that occurs. Complacency, laziness, and "what's in it for me?" are our watchwords and they will also spell our demise.
Title: Re: Is the Republic of United States Doomed?
Post by: ColonialMarine0431 on November 02, 2009, 03:17:32 PM
Well said Eupher. I will remain optimistic, but prepared for the worst.
Title: Re: Is the Republic of United States Doomed?
Post by: Chump on November 02, 2009, 03:32:31 PM
Never underestimate the social upheaval resulting from financial collapse.  For all intents and purposes, the financial destruction occurring at the end of the Weimar Republic brought us Hitler.  This is not to make the daft argument that, "ZOMG HITLER IZ COMMING," but one could argue that he never would have had even the smallest foothold had Germany's economy not collapsed.

I'm of the Doom and Gloom crowd, personally.  We are in desperate financial straits in this country.  Witness the fact that since TARP's inception and the first bailouts, we've pumped (either through direct lending, balance sheet transfers, or outright printing) roughly 2.7 trillion dollars into credit and private financial markets...to maintain the status quo.  Consider that.  Ponder it.

It cannot continue, folks, no matter how much anyone would like it to.  You think we're angry over the current state of things?  Wait until the entitlement class stops getting their checks and gubmint cheese...

As for my family, we're heavily invested in lead, lead delivery systems, rice, beans, and jerky.  To each his own, but if you're not prepared for a major disruption in civil services and outright civil unrest, you're not doing yourself any favors.
Title: Re: Is the Republic of United States Doomed?
Post by: BadCat on November 02, 2009, 03:34:55 PM
What scares me is that most people believe we live in a democracy. WRONG. We live in a Republic. Major difference. A democracy is a system of mob rule. A Republic is a system of laws. Why aren't schools teaching this? Oh who am I kidding. The schools are run by libTURDs. Private school or military academy for my kids when I have them.

Reminds me of this quote...incorrectly attributed to Ben Franklin, but good nonetheless.

Quote
Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote.
Title: Re: Is the Republic of United States Doomed?
Post by: Mustang on November 02, 2009, 04:37:21 PM
Never underestimate the social upheaval resulting from financial collapse.  For all intents and purposes, the financial destruction occurring at the end of the Weimar Republic brought us Hitler.  This is not to make the daft argument that, "ZOMG HITLER IZ COMMING," but one could argue that he never would have had even the smallest foothold had Germany's economy not collapsed.

We are headed towards that way until we got some serious fiscal responsible people in power. This country can easily become a third world country if left unchecked for awhile leading to global instability, mass poverty always leads to violence and war.

The stimilus package was the worst thing that ever happened to the United States domestic policy. That stimilus money created a lot of government jobs, when the stimilus money runs out, those jobs are still there and there will be only 3 choices:
1. cut the jobs (not likely)
2. go into deeper deficit
3. raise taxes

Creating an endless spiral of debt and/or taxation until you get rid of those positions.
And that "job growth" Obama keeps bragging about is all government jobs while the private sector continues to go down.
Obama is an ***hole who screwed this country in the worst way possible. I can't believe his job approval rating is 49%.
49% of Americans are obviously morons.
Title: Re: Is the Republic of United States Doomed?
Post by: bkg on November 02, 2009, 04:52:04 PM
And that "job growth" Obama keeps bragging about is all government . I can't believe his job approval rating is 49%.
49% of Americans are obviously morons.

You sound like Bill Maher...
Title: Re: Is the Republic of United States Doomed?
Post by: Thor on November 02, 2009, 05:04:56 PM
I've been watching a re-run of an 80s series, "V- The Visitors". I can see many parallels to today's America. I KNOW which side I'll be on.
Title: Re: Is the Republic of United States Doomed?
Post by: Rebel on November 02, 2009, 08:05:54 PM
Just IMO - but passing laws is not the way to defend liberties. Repealing laws is.

Amazing how much you know more about this country, as it was intended, than the DUmbasses.

You're on the wrong side of the Pacific, bro. We need to get you on the voter rolls.  :cheersmate:
Title: Re: Is the Republic of United States Doomed?
Post by: Thor on November 03, 2009, 05:00:38 PM
Just IMO - but passing laws is not the way to defend liberties. Repealing laws is.

Amazing how much you know more about this country, as it was intended, than the DUmbasses.

You're on the wrong side of the Pacific, bro. We need to get you on the voter rolls.  :cheersmate:

My sentiments exactly. :cheersmate:  There are others around here that would pass a law just because it didn't suit their particular beliefs. One can't just simply legislate morality or common sense. They DO try, though.......  :hammer:
Title: Re: Is the Republic of United States Doomed?
Post by: Crazy Horse on November 03, 2009, 05:41:44 PM
I've been watching a re-run of an 80s series, "V- The Visitors". I can see many parallels to today's America. I KNOW which side I'll be on.

Tonight is a series premier of V (2009)
Title: Re: Is the Republic of United States Doomed?
Post by: vesta111 on November 04, 2009, 10:02:46 AM
We are headed towards that way until we got some serious fiscal responsible people in power. This country can easily become a third world country if left unchecked for awhile leading to global instability, mass poverty always leads to violence and war.

The stimilus package was the worst thing that ever happened to the United States domestic policy. That stimilus money created a lot of government jobs, when the stimilus money runs out, those jobs are still there and there will be only 3 choices:
1. cut the jobs (not likely)
2. go into deeper deficit
3. raise taxes

Creating an endless spiral of debt and/or taxation until you get rid of those positions.
And that "job growth" Obama keeps bragging about is all government jobs while the private sector continues to go down.
Obama is an ***hole who screwed this country in the worst way possible. I can't believe his job approval rating is 49%.
49% of Americans are obviously morons.

Think about this very seriously Mustang.  If America does in fact take steps backward to European life or become a 3 rd. world country, have you made any long range plans for you and your family.?

In case we missed it the world has shrunk, you know most if not all of us are not native Americans, Some may be decedents of those blacks, Chinese, or even white indentured servants brought here against their will.

For those that voluntary fled the home of their birth our ancestors, life must have been intolerable and they chose to run from their leaders into what they found was a world of freedom.

If God forbids and America changes to the point of that of what our ancestors fled from---Where do Americans go to start over.?

I tell you this gets spooky, a man arrives with no documentation to his former life.  He Wows the populace and becomes head honcho over us all.   Within a few  months he begins to ignore the law of the land, our Constitution and in some cases over rides our rights. From the wealthiest to the poorest.  I had no idea the President could fire at will people in the private sector. No idea he could intrude on my private health plan.

I believe we all love America for the freedom we have--we can make it or break it on our own. 

When or if America no longer stands for freedom and the right of choice, I will have to fight it out here, there is no other place I want to live, so far, but when my grandchildren get old enough to recite chapter and verse about any other way of life learned in Government run schools, then I may as my ancestors did, grab the family and find another life somewhere else. 

Some where there will be a push from the Government that goes too far.  I hate blood shed but it could possibly come to that.

Obama is like Samson who pulled down the pillars of his society.  He may actually believe in what he is doing, he may think he is the second Abraham Lincoln or Jesus, who knows.

It is us the people that have to pay for his mistakes, US who has to live with his decisions, his place in history has been made, Frankly I don't think he gives a damn what we and history will say about him, it is his way or no way---Classic sociopath.

Rant over, darn you guys get me a-going.



Title: Re: Is the Republic of United States Doomed?
Post by: rich_t on January 02, 2010, 11:48:40 PM
What scares me is that most people believe we live in a democracy. WRONG. We live in a Republic. Major difference. A democracy is a system of mob rule. A Republic is a system of laws. Why aren't schools teaching this? Oh who am I kidding. The schools are run by libTURDs. Private school or military academy for my kids when I have them.

Ummm...  You might want to take a good look at how things have been in this country for the past few decades.

It resembles a democracy more than it does a republic IMO.

 :fuelfire:
Title: Re: Is the Republic of United States Doomed?
Post by: thundley4 on January 03, 2010, 04:49:51 AM
Ummm...  You might want to take a good look at how things have been in this country for the past few decades.

It resembles a democracy more than it does a republic IMO.

 :fuelfire:

I would beg to differ, at least as far as the Stimulus bill and HCR go.  The Dimrats are not voting the majority will, they are voting their personal ideology.
Title: Re: Is the Republic of United States Doomed?
Post by: rich_t on January 03, 2010, 09:23:47 AM
I would beg to differ, at least as far as the Stimulus bill and HCR go.  The Dimrats are not voting the majority will, they are voting their personal ideology.

True.
Title: Re: Is the Republic of United States Doomed?
Post by: TheSarge on January 03, 2010, 09:26:15 AM
I would beg to differ, at least as far as the Stimulus bill and HCR go.  The Dimrats are not voting the majority will, they are voting their personal ideology.

Which really is nothing new for the last 30+ years going all the way back to Roe v Wade



Title: Re: Is the Republic of United States Doomed?
Post by: DumbAss Tanker on January 03, 2010, 10:16:14 AM
Are we staring doom right in the face, no.  Are things slowly sliding into the abyss, with no prospect of a move back onto safe ground even glowing on the horizon, yes.
Title: Re: Is the Republic of United States Doomed?
Post by: Javelin on January 03, 2010, 03:49:27 PM
People look at this topic in a linear manner when it is far more dynamic than anyone can imagine.  For example, the concept of the Republic failing from internal political means speaks nothing to the trans nationalization which is taking place at an alarming rate.  Furthermore it does not take into account that this system was designed to be used by people of good moral fiber and the words of our founding fathers stated this fact in many places.  This is a far cry from the Carter years, today we have a communist as president.  The ideology of the nation is changing within the school system from grade school to college levels in a way most do not understand.

Furthermore, and I believe the most immediate threat is the economy.  Many people do not even understand what is taking place.  There are so many angles alone within the moves being made economically that it is beyond the ability for any single person to fully comprehend.  We see bond sales to foreign government being repurchased by our government just days later and banks preferring to lend to the federal government rather than small business, we have a major problem.  Lets not forget that this housing crisis is not even over.  As of Jan 2010 a new round of foreclosures will begin which Fannie and Freddie plan on backing and lets not forget that more than 90% of home loans now going through are purchased by Freddie and Fannie.   Also when we take into account that when the government stepped into the economy we lost any fail safe that we had.  With unfunded liabilities being the worst nightmare ever imagined, a currency crisis which we are quickly headed to will destroy us. 

Once the government lent money to the banks they decided to hold this money on their books.  While some have decided to "repay" this money, in truth its not repaid.  Most banks have sold many of their holdings to the government to cover this debt so further intrusion by the government into the banking sector has taken place.  When all of this money gains velocity from going from the banks books out into the public sector, the game is over.  This must happen at some point, it simply does not disappear.  The government is in a catch 22.  Any attempt to recover this money would have to take place via raised interest rates.  Yet if they raise rates they also will find this will accelerate the currency crisis for the government also owes so much money they would in the end be borrowing to repay interest alone.  Yet without raising rates inflation will continue beyond control and international rates on lending to the USA would go up therefore forcing the national rates to increase. 

There is no way out.

In my mind, its not a matter of if, but time.  Some time lines I have heard quoted by economists given as to the beginning of the final collapse of our economy is two to five years.  To any attempt made by the people to affect our future politically is in practical terms, futile.  When the currency collapses we have two choices.  Do as Germany did and use land as backing for a new currency and this alone opens a whole new can of worms especially since Fannie and Freddie own so much and confiscation of land becomes imminent.  The other option is to defer our debt and nation to the UN forming the largest global alliance in world history, that is, if they will have us for they too will have their own problems to deal with.

From where I sit, based upon my understanding and education of the political climate and the economic climate, we are preparing for what could be the last days of our Republic.  I never try to become one of the tin foil hat people, but when mathematics dictates that failure is imminent, how can one argue?  If the problems were only political I would say our chance of survival is high.  Yet when coupled with the economic issues that still have yet to be played out and those that have not even arrived yet, I see no hope whatsoever.
Title: Re: Is the Republic of United States Doomed?
Post by: Carl on January 03, 2010, 04:47:15 PM
Off topic a bit here but as long as economics is in discussion...

What happens the day Iran announces they have a functioning nuclear device(s)?
Where does the commodity price of oil futures and pump prices go and what is the result on our economy?
Title: Re: Is the Republic of United States Doomed?
Post by: Javelin on January 03, 2010, 05:32:21 PM
Off topic a bit here but as long as economics is in discussion...

What happens the day Iran announces they have a functioning nuclear device(s)?
Where does the commodity price of oil futures and pump prices go and what is the result on our economy?

Good question.  Iran as a possible issue is no new thing and has been debated many times in the past.  Yet it has never been looked at from the point of view we are in now due to our economic issues.  I get the feeling we would be forced into war, I really do not see any other way. 

As to the economics, it could become a nightmare.  I believe we would see oil prices spike to levels unthought of and make the Katrina problems look like a slow drive on a Sunday afternoon.  Gold an obvious hedge and the effects on the dollar could be dangerous. 

See for me thats the major issue right now.  People are looking at this so called "economic recovery" in best case scenarios.  People forget that we do not exist alone in this world and the terrorist realize how much damage they can do to us now just via screwing with our economics.  We are wounded deeply and exactly how much more would it take to tip us over the edge?

Consider this too.  We know that Iran considers other Arab states that have supported the US as nothing but traitors and the right hand of Washington.  What if tensions grew and Iran sent terrorists to attack the largest refinery in Saudi? 
Title: Re: Is the Republic of United States Doomed?
Post by: Otiger on January 04, 2010, 08:11:54 PM
Is the Republic of United States Doomed?

In a word, yes.

I would love to believe differently, but all signs point to destruction.  We have a completely corrupt and unaccountable government, with a population that either refuses to do something about it, or is too stupid to see there is a problem.
Title: Re: Is the Republic of United States Doomed?
Post by: Oceander on January 04, 2010, 11:35:12 PM
(http://i758.photobucket.com/albums/xx221/B_Oceander/Obamacare/Totalitarianism_01.jpg)




How many people will Obamacare kill for political purposes?