The Conservative Cave
Interests => Around the House & In the Garage => Topic started by: crockspot on October 19, 2009, 09:05:18 PM
-
I think it's finally time to get a portable generator for power outages. I'm told that during the ice storm about ten years ago, my island had no power for a week. I just packed my chest freezer to the brim, and I have a shallow well, so I depend on power for water and water pressure. I also have two Monitor type vented kerosene heaters for my primary heat, and they won't kick on without power.
So the things I need to power in an outage are:
Refrigerator
Chest freezer
Two heaters (pretty minimal draw I'm guessing, they each have a fan and ignitor)
1/2 hp jet pump that runs for a minute every five gallons of water.
And if the power is out for an extended period, like a week, I will need to run a 1/4 hp sump pump to keep the basement from flooding.
I'm hoping not to spend more than about 400 bucks.
Suggestions? Comments?
-
The items you've mentioned will have a lot of amerage draw, especially if they all hit at the same time. I don't think you're going to find a QUALITY generator that will meet the needs you've mentioned for < $1200.
I had ordered a Honda 5500, but it never came in. So I picked up TWO Onan/Cummin's generators (6500 and a 3500) plus a transfer switch for less than the Honda. I think I paid $2100 total.
-
I did find this one, it is highly rated on a consumer site:
Generac 5724 (3200 watt)
http://www.globalindustrial.com/gcs/prod/30196371/i/1/productInfo.web
I'm not above unplugging the fridge when I have to flush the toilet or pump out the basement, especially if it will save me $1500. Hopefully, this thing would never get used at all.
-
Like bkg said, even with a 5000-watt generator, you'd be looking at enough amps for only about half the things you listed.
I have a Coleman 5000 that I paid $450 for last April and that was a post-winter sale price.
-
Quite honestly, I had been contemplating the same thing with the house that I had that was custom built. I was seriously considering one of those Generac generators that would run off of Natural Gas or Propane. (Preferably natural gas, propane in a gas emergency) The entire setup would have been a significant expenditure, but the generator would not be easily stolen, has automatic monthly "test" times, and seemed like it would have been the right thing. During a severe power outage in St Paul, MN, the cable company got generators to keep the cable system running. I mounted one of them on a utility pole, above the CATV power supply, chained and locked, and it "disappeared". It turns out that not only was the cable company getting generators stolen, but also many homeowners.
This is one like I was looking at: (http://www.usa-generator.com/categories/photo_c1/homestandby1.gif)
-
Do some reading here:
http://www.generatorjoe.net/html/wattageguide.html
http://www.generatorjoe.net/html/calculations.html
Bear in mind that most generators are listed as PEAK power. I would guess you'll need at least 6500 continuous to run your list.
Don't buy less than you need. It's wasted money.
Thor is spot on WRT to propane/Nat gas conversions. It's on the list for my 6500... someday.
-
The heaters suck a great deal of watts. We had an ice storm last winter where we were out of power for 8 days. We have a 5,500 generator with 8,000+ starting watts that we could plug the boiler, fridge, tv and some lamps to. I had to unplug the fridge to run the coffee maker. You would be surprised how much watts your everyday appliances use.
You will have to go really big to run all the things you have listed.
-
So the things I need to power in an outage are:
Refrigerator
Chest freezer
Two heaters (pretty minimal draw I'm guessing, they each have a fan and ignitor)
1/2 hp jet pump that runs for a minute every five gallons of water.
And if the power is out for an extended period, like a week, I will need to run a 1/4 hp sump pump to keep the basement from flooding.
I'm hoping not to spend more than about 400 bucks.
Suggestions? Comments?
How close are your neighbors, will obscene noise levels be an issue?
With all that you have listed, a $400 generator wouldn't even be in the ball park. You're easily looking at spending 2-3x that. Sorry.
-
Quite honestly, I had been contemplating the same thing with the house that I had that was custom built. I was seriously considering one of those Generac generators that would run off of Natural Gas or Propane.
....During a severe power outage in St Paul, MN, the cable company got generators to keep the cable system running. I mounted one of them on a utility pole, above the CATV power supply, chained and locked, and it "disappeared". It turns out that not only was the cable company getting generators stolen, but also many homeowners.
Residential automatic standby generators are a marvelous blessing :cheersmate: But if someone was hopefully looking at only a $400 expense, they might be a little out of the price range... I think since i installed one at my grandfathers a few years ago, he still goes outside to watch it run it's self-diagnostic start up on saturday mornings :lmao:
Spot on about generators being a beckoning call for thieves. People do cruise neighborhoods just listening for generators to come back and steal, and regularly do so.
-
Check Craig's List.
Also check in your local/area paper for auctions for manufacturing companies (small businesses) that are going out of business.
The other half is a facilitator between manufacturing businesses and a auction company that specializes in manufacturing business liquidation.
He did one last week that I helped him with. It was a family owned business, and the owners are either past retirement age or close, and none of the next generation wanted to continue to run the business. A forklift sold for just a couple of hundred dollars! When it's a total business liquidation, like this one was....all items are sold...regardless of how low the bids are.
You just never know what you can pick up at those things....most of the buyers will turn around and sell what they bought and make money.
-
I've got a Coleman--6500 watts normal load, 8000 watts starting surge. Cost me $800.
HOWEVER...
I would HIGHLY recommend a transfer switch. You can pretty easily do it yourself, including the mounting and wiring. Those go for about $150-200. Beats having an electrician come in and disconnect your main and reconnect when power comes back. And if you think of backfeeding, you will NOT like what happens. Do NOT be one of those assholes who backfeeds into your dryer plug and forgets to open the main breaker while someone is trying to work on the line.
-
I've got a Coleman--6500 watts normal load, 8000 watts starting surge. Cost me $800.
HOWEVER...
I would HIGHLY recommend a transfer switch. You can pretty easily do it yourself, including the mounting and wiring. Those go for about $150-200. Beats having an electrician come in and disconnect your main and reconnect when power comes back. And if you think of backfeeding, you will NOT like what happens. Do NOT be one of those assholes who backfeeds into your dryer plug and forgets to open the main breaker while someone is trying to work on the line.
Ditto the transfer switch. I don't do electricity so I had mine wired. It was cheap peace of mind. I have a 5k Coleman which I can switch circuits on depending on season. In winter I switch to the boiler, summer to the freezer. Other than that there is enough reserve to run a few lights and the fridge. Finding a good used unit should be no challenge on craigslist or the classified guides like Uncle Henry's. People who buy them tend to have short memories and sell them when they 'get in the way'.
That said I would make a couple observations: I did put a wheel kit on the beast. Unless you plan on building a storage shack outside it is a bit of a pain to move. When we had a transient outage this sumer I pulled it out to the patio and fired it up. Yes, there is noise, however, even though I run the unit a couple times a year, this time I had a puddle of oil on the patio. It appears a seal has gone bad. Now the question, fix or farm the repair out?? Anyone ever do a seal job on a 10 hp Tecumseh without the proper pullers?
-
Find a reputable small engine repair shop near you and have it done. You know there are plenty of places up here that do that kind of stuff, but of course you don't need me to tell you to do it now and avoid the rush.
-
Try Small Engine Warehouse. An example:
http://www.smallenginewarehouse.com/product.asp?PN=CTG5000&desc=Coleman-Powermate%20Generator%20%205000/6250%20watt%2010hp%20Tecumseh,%20Cast%20Iron%20Sleeve,%20LOS
Here's another at Overstock:
http://www.overstock.com/Auto-Parts/PowerMax-8500-watt-16-Hp-Electric-Start-Generator/3572929/product.html
-
Find a reputable small engine repair shop near you and have it done. You know there are plenty of places up here that do that kind of stuff, but of course you don't need me to tell you to do it now and avoid the rush.
Probably right Sparky. I have been avoiding it for a while so I need to get it resolved, in the event of a real emergency keeping it supplied with oil would be a greater challenge than filling the gas. :uhsure:
As an aside, last spring I wanted to have the blower tuned and belts changed. I had used this place on Route One before for the lawn tractor, it was always free pick up and delivery, well sir, not any more, they quoted me $60.00 pick up and delivery. I have yet to contact the other place further down to see what their policy is, they have only recently changed ownership and I have never had to have them pick up and deliver.
Again, there is more to a generator than sometimes meets the eye. As I mentioned earlier I have a 5k Coleman which I put wheels on (check Wineslob's link to see what it looks like without wheels, although mine is an older model without the twist plug option ( 220V ). Then note the weight about 135 lb, which, in my book, makes it a two man lift if you want to get it into a non lift truck for service. A bike or snowmobile trailer with gate is far preferred to a honkin' four wheel drive pick up ( not that there is anything wrong with that ) when you have to move stuff unless you are built like Gorilla Monsoon with large friends. :-)
Also one needs to factor in the cost of good patch cord, weather head and hard line ( mine was a 4 wire 220V, at about fifty feet long 'cause it had to go across the house....) to the transfer switch. Copper ain't cheap. These costs do mount up fast. My patch cord is about twenty feet so I can get the unit a ways away from the house. (Noise and smell).
-
Talking about generator thieves ...
During hurricane Ike we were all on generators (Rita too but that is beside the point). In a town not far from here some thieving bastards were driving around at night looking for generators to steal and they found one running in a garage and it wasn't chained up.
To keep from waking the home owner they started the lawn mower sitting there then unplugged and stole the generator! The home owner woke up a couple of times thinking his 'generator' didn't sound right but blew it off until he tried to turn on a light.
If a thief is smart enough to do that they should get a job, I'm sure they are management material! LOL
KC
-
We have an old Honda EX 5500, which is a model that is not built in its current configuration any longer, and it is great........it will actually produce over 6500 watts at constant load, and is so quiet that if it is running in the garage you can't hear it in the house with the door closed. It will run for about 10 hours on a tank of gas, is liquid cooled, and portable to the extent that it is on wheels (It weighs around 500 pounds).
During the big ice storm here in Kansas City in 2001, we were without power for close to two weeks, and it ran the following:
Refrigerator
Forced air gas furnace
Freezer
TV, stereo, all the lights in the house
Microwave
Sump pump.
It would also run one surface burner on the electric range if we turned the furnace off for a while.
We were the only house in the area with power and heat, and we had the neighbors over to keep warm, and prepare meals, etc.
The problem that we encountered was getting gasoline for it during the outage, as the power was off over such a wide area, I had to drive at times over thirty miles to get my gas cans filled........
Back in the late 80s when this model was made, it sold for around $2199, so I would suppose that a similiar capacity model by Honda would probably run twice that much today, but you might find a used one somewhere, and if it needed repair, parts are readily available (but expensive).
Needless to say, I doubt that you will find anything with the capacity that you need for $400, unless you locate one that needs repair, and do it yourself.
doc
-
As an aside, last spring I wanted to have the blower tuned and belts changed. I had used this place on Route One before for the lawn tractor, it was always free pick up and delivery, well sir, not any more, they quoted me $60.00 pick up and delivery. I have yet to contact the other place further down to see what their policy is, they have only recently changed ownership and I have never had to have them pick up and deliver.
Not Philbricks (or are they 179 Seacoast Power), by any chance? Stay the hell away from them.
-
Not Philbricks (or are they 179 Seacoast Power), by any chance? Stay the hell away from them.
You are correct, they are 179 Seacoast Power now. What is the skinny on them? I have dealt with them when they were Philly in the past. Never had a problem with them.
-
You are correct, they are 179 Seacoast Power now. What is the skinny on them? I have dealt with them when they were Philly in the past. Never had a problem with them.
A co-worker of mine was badly ripped off by them.
-
A co-worker of mine was badly ripped off by them.
Repair work or buying? I bought a new mower this spring and when I checked with them I kept on going to the Homeless despot where I got the same unit for a couple bills less .......
Come to think of it one of the BIL bought a snowblower from them which seezed the first time he used it and all they would do was provide a short block ( but they might have still been Philly's). BTW oil is a great lubricant. :-)
-
I did find this one, it is highly rated on a consumer site:
Generac 5724 (3200 watt)
http://www.globalindustrial.com/gcs/prod/30196371/i/1/productInfo.web
I'm not above unplugging the fridge when I have to flush the toilet or pump out the basement, especially if it will save me $1500. Hopefully, this thing would never get used at all.
Generac is a highly popular (translation - there's a huge distribution network) generator, but you have to be careful about a couple things. First, Generac offers a cabinet made of aluminum in certain areas of the country, namely close to the sea. They do that because their steel cabinet has nasty tendency to rust out.
The engine in the Generac has valves that have to be manually adjusted. For that reason, I favor the Kohler 12RES, which has hydraulic lifters - no need to pony up those bucks to have someone do that.
My Kohler is a 12KW model, but I wanted something that was going to power the heat, the lights, garage door openers, water heater, sump pump, oven, two freezers, a refrigerator, and lots of other things that are nice-to-haves. The transfer switch was a requirement.
The big money comes when you have to hire a licensed electrician to wire all this stuff. But I've got peace of mind knowing that when the lights go out, they go out for a fraction of a second before the generator kicks on.
ETA: My Kohler is powered by LP gas. Can't get natural gas out here because we live in the boonies, but I have a big-assed 500 gallon LP tank that the Kohler just sips from. :-)
-
Repair work or buying? I bought a new mower this spring and when I checked with them I kept on going to the Homeless despot where I got the same unit for a couple bills less .......
Come to think of it one of the BIL bought a snowblower from them which seezed the first time he used it and all they would do was provide a short block ( but they might have still been Philly's). BTW oil is a great lubricant. :-)
Repair. For starters, they tried to charge him over $200 to "tune up" his snowthrower.
-
knowing that when the lights go out, they go out for a fraction of a second before the generator kicks on.
ETA: My Kohler is powered by LP gas. Can't get natural gas out here because we live in the boonies, but I have a big-assed 500 gallon LP tank that the Kohler just sips from. :-)
Minor nitpick......the fastest genset/transfer switch combination takes an absolute minimum of 8 seconds to come on line after an outage (hospital rated units)........the average is around fifteen to twenty seconds.
By the time that the transfer switch senses that an outage has occurred (usually 2 seconds), and the generator engine starts and comes up to proper RPM (usually about 4 seconds at the very best), and the transfer switch "syncs" the voltage and 60 cycle current, you have the eight second minimum. Anything less and you run the risk of powering your load with lower than necessary voltage (bad), something other than 60 cycle AC (even worse), and unless the governor has stabilized the engine speed, your output in both voltage and frequency will vary all over the map (disastrous).......
doc
On edit: If I were going to buy a "full power" genset for my home that was the absolute best in reliability and efficiency, Cummins-Onan would be what I would recommend. They ain't cheap, but they are the best........
-
Repair. For starters, they tried to charge him over $200 to "tune up" his snowthrower.
I just checked them out.
They are getting $75.00 / hour labor. I don't think the Benz dealer gets much more than that!! :-)
( their pick up and delivery is only $40.00 ) and they have a $40.00 fee for an estimate..........
Bottom line ladies and gentleman, skip sending the kids to college, enroll them in Small Engine Repair at the local voc tech. :rotf: ( The seal is $8.00 )
-
Minor nitpick......the fastest genset/transfer switch combination takes an absolute minimum of 8 seconds to come on line after an outage (hospital rated units)........the average is around fifteen to twenty seconds.
By the time that the transfer switch senses that an outage has occurred (usually 2 seconds), and the generator engine starts and comes up to proper RPM (usually about 4 seconds at the very best), and the transfer switch "syncs" the voltage and 60 cycle current, you have the eight second minimum. Anything less and you run the risk of powering your load with lower than necessary voltage (bad), something other than 60 cycle AC (even worse), and unless the governor has stabilized the engine speed, your output in both voltage and frequency will vary all over the map (disastrous).......
doc
I can't argue your technical expertise, doc, but I've seen it happen. Power went out (or seemed to go out) with a flicker, I hear the generator kick on, and lights are on. Couple seconds, tops.
-
quote: I can't argue your technical expertise, doc, but I've seen it happen. Power went out (or seemed to go out) with a flicker, I hear the generator kick on, and lights are on. Couple seconds, tops. end quote:
The only way that would be possible is if the mains power was doing strange things before the actual outage occurred, that caused the transfer switch to start the generator in advance of the actual failure (which is possible, depending on the sophistication of your transfer switch)......in that case, when the mains power finally went to zero, all the systen had to do was switch......the generator was already running before the actual outage.
I have seen this happen a few times with the very large commercial gensets that I have worked with, but it is pretty rare.........in these cases the transfer switch logic circuitry monitors the incoming voltage and frequency, and if it drifts outside of preset parameters, the system starts the generator.......in essence preparing itself for an imminent failure......that may be what you have experienced with your system. I would be surprised at that level of sophistication in a "home" system......
Easy way to find out.......go over to your service panel with a watch, kill the main breaker, and time how long it takes for the genset to take over......downside.....you will have all of your clocks flashing "12:00" until you reset the damn things......
doc
-
quote: I can't argue your technical expertise, doc, but I've seen it happen. Power went out (or seemed to go out) with a flicker, I hear the generator kick on, and lights are on. Couple seconds, tops. end quote:
The only way that would be possible is if the mains power was doing strange things before the actual outage occurred, that caused the transfer switch to start the generator in advance of the actual failure (which is possible, depending on the sophistication of your transfer switch)......in that case, when the mains power finally went to zero, all the systen had to do was switch......the generator was already running before the actual outage.
I have seen this happen a few times with the very large commercial gensets that I have worked with, but it is pretty rare.........in these cases the transfer switch logic circuitry monitors the incoming voltage and frequency, and if it drifts outside of preset parameters, the system starts the generator.......in essence preparing itself for an imminent failure......that may be what you have experienced with your system. I would be surprised at that level of sophistication in a "home" system......
Easy way to find out.......go over to your service panel with a watch, kill the main breaker, and time how long it takes for the genset to take over......downside.....you will have all of your clocks flashing "12:00" until you reset the damn things......
doc
:bow: Again, I understand only about a third of what you've said. It's possible that I didn't really have an outage - just a stumble enough to kick the generator on. It ran a few seconds with the lights on, then stopped. All was well.
I paid some pretty good coin for this Kohler and I'm not disappointed. Granted, it is a home unit but in testing the thing after installation, I had just about every damn electrical light, circuit, and thing going. The only point that the system didn't like was when I turned the second oven on to 500 deg. F. along with everything else including a 3.5 ton A/C unit. The unit complained about that one! :rotf:
We have combo above/below ground electrical power and despite some pretty strong winds I've not had a significant outage. But I'll be damned if I go through another one like I had in Salt Lake City. We went six days without power. That one sucked donkey ass. :bawl:
-
:bow: Again, I understand only about a third of what you've said. It's possible that I didn't really have an outage - just a stumble enough to kick the generator on. It ran a few seconds with the lights on, then stopped. All was well.
I paid some pretty good coin for this Kohler and I'm not disappointed. Granted, it is a home unit but in testing the thing after installation, I had just about every damn electrical light, circuit, and thing going. The only point that the system didn't like was when I turned the second oven on to 500 deg. F. along with everything else including a 3.5 ton A/C unit. The unit complained about that one! :rotf:
We have combo above/below ground electrical power and despite some pretty strong winds I've not had a significant outage. But I'll be damned if I go through another one like I had in Salt Lake City. We went six days without power. That one sucked donkey ass. :bawl:
The challenges of rural living......I've seen the incoming voltage at our farm in central MO vary from a low of 180 to a high of 275 volts coming from our local coop.......and my mother-in law complains that lightbulbs only last a few months......no wonder.
Something else that I've noticed with generators.......unless you have a very good one, they do not produce a pure "sine wave" output, and some electronics don't appreciate it at all. In my case, I have our TV, and my rather expensive antique McIntosh stereo equipment, as well as a couple of computers running on UPS's of various sizes, and our house has an alarm system.........when running on generator, the UPS's complain loudly by a beeping alarm, even though they are being supplied with AC power, as well as the alarm panel.........they just don't like the waveform of the AC....
The microwave acts strangely as well on generator, it works OK, but has a different sound......don't know what that is all about either, but as long as it works.
doc
-
The challenges of rural living......I've seen the incoming voltage at our farm in central MO vary from a low of 180 to a high of 275 volts coming from our local coop.......and my mother-in law complains that lightbulbs only last a few months......no wonder.
Something else that I've noticed with generators.......unless you have a very good one, they do not produce a pure "sine wave" output, and some electronics don't appreciate it at all. In my case, I have our TV, and my rather expensive antique McIntosh stereo equipment, as well as a couple of computers running on UPS's of various sizes, and our house has an alarm system.........when running on generator, the UPS's complain loudly by a beeping alarm, even though they are being supplied with AC power, as well as the alarm panel.........they just don't like the waveform of the AC....
The microwave acts strangely as well on generator, it works OK, but has a different sound......don't know what that is all about either, but as long as it works.
doc
In doing my research, the "unclean power" deal that you mentioned seemed to be more of a problem with the Generac -- less so with the Kohler.
Kohler 12RESL (http://www.kohlerpower.com/onlinecatalog/pdf/g4110.pdf)
-
In doing my research, the "unclean power" deal that you mentioned seemed to be more of a problem with the Generac -- less so with the Kohler.
Kohler 12RESL (http://www.kohlerpower.com/onlinecatalog/pdf/g4110.pdf)
Just read the specs, and it does have microprocessor controlled input power monitoring that I was discussing from my experience with commercial units.......looks like a great unit.
I also noticed that they rate their outage response time at 10 seconds......
The THD rating that they discuss is what likely causes my problems with my little Honda, it was not designed to those specs.
doc
-
Just read the specs, and it does have microprocessor controlled input power monitoring that I was discussing from my experience with commercial units.......looks like a great unit.
I also noticed that they rate their outage response time at 10 seconds......
The THD rating that they discuss is what likely causes my problems with my little Honda, it was not designed to those specs.
doc
Yes, I saw the 10 second thing as well - which leads me to conclude that maybe all I had was a power blip enough to kick the unit on. :confused:
-
The challenges of rural living......I've seen the incoming voltage at our farm in central MO vary from a low of 180 to a high of 275 volts coming from our local coop.......and my mother-in law complains that lightbulbs only last a few months......no wonder.
Something else that I've noticed with generators.......unless you have a very good one, they do not produce a pure "sine wave" output, and some electronics don't appreciate it at all. In my case, I have our TV, and my rather expensive antique McIntosh stereo equipment, as well as a couple of computers running on UPS's of various sizes, and our house has an alarm system.........when running on generator, the UPS's complain loudly by a beeping alarm, even though they are being supplied with AC power, as well as the alarm panel.........they just don't like the waveform of the AC....
The microwave acts strangely as well on generator, it works OK, but has a different sound......don't know what that is all about either, but as long as it works.
doc
True dat. I don't run any sensitive electronics (television, computer) on the generator, even if it's going through a power conditioner. The THD is just too great. Just for the hell of it last year when I was sans normal power, I used a Fluke scope on one of the outlets.
NOT pretty. Hell, even my Fluke 89 showed 10-12 volt surges when the furnace or well pump kicked in.
-
True dat. I don't run any sensitive electronics (television, computer) on the generator, even if it's going through a power conditioner. The THD is just too great. Just for the hell of it last year when I was sans normal power, I used a Fluke scope on one of the outlets.
NOT pretty. Hell, even my Fluke 89 showed 10-12 volt surges when the furnace or well pump kicked in.
If you look at the spec sheet on Eupher's generator, the THD is really low, and the voltage regulation is rated at 1.5% from no load to 100%.......those are really good numbers.
I wish my local utility could match that........hell, last time I complained about voltage variations I was nastily advised that "we are allowed 15%!!!" WTF is up with that........you would think they would take a bit more pride in their performance.......but they are a monopoly after all........
doc
-
The challenges of rural living......I've seen the incoming voltage at our farm in central MO vary from a low of 180 to a high of 275 volts coming from our local coop.......and my mother-in law complains that lightbulbs only last a few months......no wonder.
Something else that I've noticed with generators.......unless you have a very good one, they do not produce a pure "sine wave" output, and some electronics don't appreciate it at all. In my case, I have our TV, and my rather expensive antique McIntosh stereo equipment, as well as a couple of computers running on UPS's of various sizes, and our house has an alarm system.........when running on generator, the UPS's complain loudly by a beeping alarm, even though they are being supplied with AC power, as well as the alarm panel.........they just don't like the waveform of the AC....
The microwave acts strangely as well on generator, it works OK, but has a different sound......don't know what that is all about either, but as long as it works.
doc
That stuff is crap. I'll "dispose" of it for you. I mean, who wants tubes?
-
That stuff is crap. I'll "dispose" of it for you. I mean, who wants tubes?
I have vintage in both tubes and solid state........but there is nothing like tubes to keep you warm on a cold winter evening......
doc
-
If you look at the spec sheet on Eupher's generator, the THD is really low, and the voltage regulation is rated at 1.5% from no load to 100%.......those are really good numbers.
I wish my local utility could match that........hell, last time I complained about voltage variations I was nastily advised that "we are allowed 15%!!!" WTF is up with that........you would think they would take a bit more pride in their performance.......but they are a monopoly after all........
doc
15 percent? Really? Hell, when I worked for SCE they were allowed +/- 5 percent. But droop isn't what worries me, it's the surge (drop) you get when a really large 240 volt load kicks in. Even a momentary jump from, say, 15 percent load to over 50 percent load is gonna result in a momentary (hell, even sub-cycle duration) surge that electronics aren't really happy to see. Also why I have power conditioners on all my big-ticket electronics--and I still lose clocks here from time to time.
Again, I'd call them back and find out. 15 percent sounds way too high to me. If they mean +/- 7.5 percent, I can believe that, but that's about as much as NEMA and NEC allows. The below link is from Allegheny Power, but I have a feeling pretty much all utilities are following these standards. Also your state PUC will have more information.
http://www.alleghenypower.com/PowerQuality/RelatingStandard.asp
NEC, NEMA and standard Allegheny Power regulation limits
It is important to understand that voltage regulation standards are developed for the facility’s service entrance, not necessarily at the point of equipment utilization. To understand the reason why voltages measured at the point of equipment utilization may be out of compliance with voltage regulation standards, but still acceptable for equipment operation, the relationship between the NEC, NEMA MG-1 recommendations and voltage regulation standards must be examined.
The NEC states that to obtain reasonable efficiency of operation, conductors for feeders and branch circuits, as defined in Article 100C, should be sized to prevent voltage drop that does not exceed 5 percent. Therefore, the voltage should not drop more than five percent from the origination of a circuit to its furthest outlet. Voltage drop is defined as a function of the impedance of the conductors in the circuit, along with the type of raceway or enclosures utilized, type of circuit, single- or three-phase, along with the circuit’s power factor.
It is because of the recommended acceptable allowance voltage drop by the NEC that manufacturers design their equipment in accordance with NEMA MG 1, 12.44 that states: Motors shall operate successfully under running conditions at rated load with variation in the voltage up to the following percentages of rated voltage at rated frequency :
-
That stuff is crap. I'll "dispose" of it for you. I mean, who wants tubes?
Tubes have a better audio output than solid state. Unless one spend an AWFUL lot of money, the best they're going to get is a good class "B" amplifier from a solid state system. There were some motherboards that were using tubes for their sound cards back a few years ago. The heat can be a problem.
As far as generators, when I was working cable TV, the company spent an awful lot of money on power inverters for their maintenance trucks. They had a pure sine wave output. The generators at the head ends where I worked also had a good enough output for the electronics. WE also had battery back ups and UPS for the cable telephone system and associated computers. Then again, the standby generators were not cheap. They were of the most expensive and most reliable of them all.
-
Power consumption notwithstanding (which is where you get the heat issue), tubes are damned near indestructible.
-
Power consumption notwithstanding (which is where you get the heat issue), tubes are damned near indestructible.
I dunno, I've replaced my fair share of tubes in my life. I DO like them better for most electronic things. ( I was replacing tubes from our TV set when I was six)
-
Tubes have a better audio output than solid state. Unless one spend an AWFUL lot of money, the best they're going to get is a good class "B" amplifier from a solid state system. There were some motherboards that were using tubes for their sound cards back a few years ago. The heat can be a problem.
I won't get into the tubes vs solidstate arguement. However, when you have speakers like these:
(http://i88.photobucket.com/albums/k179/Apogeespeaker/34653B3A83A3B7Ffp3463Enu3D32753E658.jpg)
(http://i88.photobucket.com/albums/k179/Apogeespeaker/34653B3A83A3B7Ffp3463Enu3D32753E-1.jpg)
you can hear the difference. Tubes are just too "soft" sounding to my ears. Yes, those are mine.
On to generators, if someone was so inclined, they could build one:
http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=45416