The Conservative Cave
Current Events => The DUmpster => Topic started by: franksolich on July 08, 2009, 07:34:06 AM
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http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=124x277127#277130
Oh my.
Curious as if I've found some new writing talent on Skins's island, I decided to check out the Wal-Mart primitive. Maybe I've found some new writing talent, maybe I haven't; only time will tell, but with this, I have more doubts than I did before.
This bonfire is from about a month ago.
sfpcjock (266 posts) Thu Jun-04-09 05:36 PM
Original message
Where is the West Bank?
Bebe's gov't is completely opposed to a 2-state resolution at this time, but I am hopeful he will end this nonsense and be the strongman to make peace happen after the drought of Bush is over.
after which a series of maps, and then an anti-Semitic news article
cali (1000+ posts) Thu Jun-04-09 05:40 PM
Response to Original message
1. The Obama administration is doing a great job so far in standing firm against further theft of Palestinian land through settlement building and expansion. too bad, the Congress isn't supporting him.
armyowalgreens (1000+ posts) Thu Jun-04-09 05:43 PM
Response to Original message
3. Why aren't we talking about dissolving Israel?
I don't get this. Israel was formed by a biased UN resolution that screwed over all the original people of that territory.
Why don't we dissolve the state of Israel and create a new secular nation in it's place that encompasses the entire region?
I'm sick and tired of people wanting a two state two religion set up. From a secular point of view, that is ****ing ludicrous.
armyowalgreens (1000+ posts) Thu Jun-04-09 05:52 PM
Response to Reply #5
7. What's naive is thinking that creating a second state is going to fix anything.
You sound like my Zionist friend. "The people of Israel deserve the land as protection"
Bullshit. Right now they have a massive target hanging over their country. They are the source of much of the conflict in that region. People want their land back.
The Islamic citizens of the US have a very small political voice (smaller than a jewish people in a secular palestinian nation would have). Are you telling me they deserve their own country because of it?
The only real solution to this is creating a single secular state.
cali (1000+ posts) Thu Jun-04-09 05:57 PM
Response to Reply #7
9. look, the time to discuss whether Israel should have been created, is past
Nations exist or they don't, and it clearly exists. In the real world, Israel is a nation. The land behind the 67 borders is indisputably Israeli land. It's absurd to argue that its not. Your absurd question about Muslims in the U.S. has no relevance to the reality and history of Israel. You may hate that it exists, but exist it does. As Pema Chodron says, "Start where you are". Try it.
armyowalgreens (1000+ posts) Thu Jun-04-09 06:02 PM
Response to Reply #9
13. I don't think any nation should be formed under a religion.
As far as I'm concerned, the only way that Israel should remain a state is if they stop identifying themselves a a jewish state. That would most likely mean losing the name.
If that was the case, there would be no need for a second state. We could simply expand the state of "Israel" into all the territories.
In a secular nation, it shouldn't matter if one religious group is a minority.
cali (1000+ posts) Thu Jun-04-09 06:13 PM
Response to Reply #13
18. sigh. Israel wasn't formed as a religious state. Do some reading.
And Israel is not a religious state now. Sadly, the wingnut religious are gaining ground there, but no, it's not a religious state. Furthermore, what you think is irreievant. What I think is irrelevant. What matters are the facts.
The fact is that Israel is not about to relinquish sovereignity. A bi-national peaceful secular state is even more of a pipe dream than two states. This is not, my dear Candide, the best of all possible worlds.
Histroically speaking, the Jews have not fared well as a minority- even in purportedly secular states. That no doubt, plays into the reluctance of israeli Jews to become a minority. Now if they don't move toward a peaceful two state solution, they'll eventually find themselves in a position where they may well be forced to accept a one state solution, due to population growth of the Palestinians. That's a reality they'd be wise to deal with.
Now again, how many people are you comfy with seeing killed by forcing the dissolution of Israel. Why are you advocating that we launch another war? And no, there is no other way to dissolve Israel other than killing hundreds of thousands if not a million or more.
armyowalgreens (1000+ posts) Thu Jun-04-09 06:26 PM
Response to Reply #18
26. And you think that hundreds of thousands if not millions will die if we empower a group of people that already hate the state of Israel?
There is not doubt about it, many people are going to die in either situation.
cali (1000+ posts) Thu Jun-04-09 06:55 PM
Response to Reply #26
42. say what? that came out sort of word saladish.
Yes, hundreds of thousands will die if we try forcibly to dissolve Israel. No, it's unlikely that hundreds of thousands will die if there's a two state solution.
"Saladish" -- franksolich likes that word.
The loutish Brit primitive also comments, but never mind.
armyowalgreens (1000+ posts) Thu Jun-04-09 06:54 PM
Response to Original message
41. We should be moving towards a world of secular nations.
I never said that we needed to begin systematically dissolving all religious nations.
That would be ridiculously impossible to do.
In the process of fixing the worlds problems, one thing that must be addressed is the complications of having religious states.
Jim Sagle (1000+ posts) Sat Jun-06-09 10:19 AM
Response to Reply #13
66. The world is what it is. It's the height of ignorance to think a nation will disappear just because you disapprove of it.
Recursion (1000+ posts) Fri Jun-05-09 10:40 AM
Response to Reply #5
48. They did under the ottomans, and in andalus
Arabs don't have a history of oppressing and killing off Jews; that's Europeans you're thinking of.
All Europeans excepting of course the recursive primitive, who's pure.
cali (1000+ posts) Fri Jun-05-09 06:28 PM
Response to Reply #48
61. um, no. both Jews and Christians were 2nd class citizens under Arab rule. Yes, it was better than European opression, but of course it was still opression.
Recursion (1000+ posts) Fri Jun-05-09 10:21 PM
Response to Reply #61
64. Come on. The dhimmi system was the most enlightened one around
And a hell of a lot better than anything Jews or Muslims found in Europe.
Oh, I dunno, but whatever.
cali (1000+ posts) Thu Jun-04-09 05:49 PM
Response to Reply #3
6. why aren't we talking about dissolving.... us, the U.Sl
Everyone knows that the U.S. was formed illegally by colonists who stole the land of the original inhabitants and screwed them over to the point of genocide.
And do you actually think that Israel would go along with such a plan? What should we do if they don't? Should we also dissolve Saudi Arabia and Kuwait? They aren't exactly secular either.
Comments like yours are what get I/P threads locked in GD.
armyowalgreens (1000+ posts) Thu Jun-04-09 05:54 PM
Response to Reply #6
8. Native Americans/Canada/Mexico aren't attacking the US every day.
What a pointless comparison. The situations are completely different.
If there was still turmoil over US land, then I would suggest dissolving the US. But that's not the case.
armyowalgreens (1000+ posts) Thu Jun-04-09 06:10 PM
Response to Reply #10
17. I am for creating one secular nation.
The jews are welcome to stay as are any other groups of people.
The point is to exclude no one.
cali (1000+ posts) Thu Jun-04-09 06:14 PM
Response to Reply #17
19. sorry, this is just stupid. please deal with reality.
armyowalgreens (1000+ posts) Thu Jun-04-09 06:22 PM
Response to Reply #19
24. I'm dealing with reality. You are attempting to go around it.
The reality is that a two state solution is no solution at all.
cali (1000+ posts) Thu Jun-04-09 06:31 PM
Response to Reply #24
28. No. You. Are. Not. The fact is that we can't dissolve Israel.
YOU are the one suggesting that but you don't have either the guts or honesty to answer my question: How many deaths are acceptable to you in attempting to dissolve Israel?
I'm not sanguine about a two state solution, but I recognize that at this time, the only thing more unrealistic than a two state solution, is a single bi-national state.
armyowalgreens (1000+ posts) Thu Jun-04-09 06:34 PM
Response to Reply #28
30. My answer: As few deaths as possible.
If you are willing to look at the two state plan as merely a step in the right direction, I would be okay with that.
But the point is a two state plan is not the SOLUTION.
cali (1000+ posts) Thu Jun-04-09 06:42 PM
Response to Reply #30
34. The solution is whatever the Palestinians and the Israelis work out or don't work out but the U.S. going to war to dissolve Israel? Never going to happen and it's literally an insane and moronic suggestion.
armyowalgreens (1000+ posts) Thu Jun-04-09 06:45 PM
Response to Reply #34
36. The Israeli government DOES NOT want to work anything out.
The Israeli government, as far as I know, has been unwilling to even discuss a two state plan.
What happens when they are not willing to go along with the plan? Do we just step aside and let them do whatever they want?
cali (1000+ posts) Thu Jun-04-09 06:52 PM
Response to Reply #36
40. Agreed. the Netanyahu gov't doen't want to work anything out.
Hopefully, that gov't will not last long. And if they don't go along with a plan? I suggest that we work toward cutting off the billions and making them realize that they will not be supported militarily or financially.
The cali primitive would've cut off aid, such as it was, as meagre as it was, to Jews in Europe 1933-1945. In a second, the cali primitive would've shut it off.
shira (1000+ posts) Thu Jun-04-09 10:11 PM
Response to Reply #19
47. i agree......and if I keep reading some of the posts in this thread, I'll end up with a negative IQ
paulsby (1000+ posts) Thu Jun-04-09 05:59 PM
Response to Reply #8
11. with all due respect this has to be the most ridiculous argument i have ever heard. are you saying that the fact that there is turmoil, specifically violent protest over israeli land, but there is not violent protest over US land, that the former justifies dissolving the country?
iow, the violence justifies the dissolution?
armyowalgreens (1000+ posts) Thu Jun-04-09 06:05 PM
Response to Reply #11
14. Yes. It's called reacting to the situation at hand.
I don't give a shit about religion. I don't care about who had the land 60 year ago.
All I care about is the fact that a lot of people hate the state of Israel and attack it on a daily basis. And they really have pretty good argument for hating Israel. It just took part in a small genocide a few months ago.
paulsby (1000+ posts) Thu Jun-04-09 06:10 PM
Response to Reply #14
16. ok. i think that's an insane argument
but at least it's clear what you believe.
Home run for the paulsby primitive.
cali (1000+ posts) Thu Jun-04-09 06:20 PM
Response to Reply #16
22. it's called hate. frothing and all.
cali (1000+ posts) Thu Jun-04-09 06:19 PM
Response to Reply #14
21. a small genocide? dog, I hate teh stupid.
and hating any country is sick shit, dear.
armyowalgreens (1000+ posts) Thu Jun-04-09 06:21 PM
Response to Reply #21
23. I hate the government of Israel just as I hated the Bush administration.
It needs to go bye bye. I don't have a problem with Israeli people.
You should look up the tactics used against the palestinians when Israel bombed the living hell out of them earlier this year. The entire attack was meant to kill palestinians and destroy their way of life.
cali (1000+ posts) Thu Jun-04-09 06:28 PM
Response to Reply #23
27. yes, you have a problem with the Israeli people.
Suggesting that we dissolve their country over their objections, is having a problem with Israelis. Sorry, you can't have it every which way. And I'm well versed in the I/P siituation and history. I post regularly in I/P, and I've done a **** of a lot of reading from many perspectives. I completely oppose the attack on Gaza, the blockade of Gaza, the banustans of the WB created by settlements and the wall, as well as other actions. Unlike you, I understand that the situation is complex, and though Israel bears a greater responsibility and a greater share of the blame, the Palestinians have contributed to the ****ing mess, as well.
You are the one who evidently needs some education. And a little honesty might help too. You keep calling Isael, the Palestinians' land. It's not. Stop your hate, it's solves nothing and contributes only bad things.
armyowalgreens (1000+ posts) Thu Jun-04-09 06:32 PM
Response to Reply #27
29. I'll stop hating the Israeli government when they stop dropping white phosphorous rounds on schools.
If they made any proper concessions to the Palestinian people, I'd be a much happier person. But whatever they do give is half assed and they usually end up taking it back in the end.
We need to stop Hamas and we need to stop the Israeli government. They are both terrorist organizations that need to be dissolved.
Oh my.
Now, this is an enormous bonfire, and intensely interesting, the fisticuffs between the bitter old Vermontese cali primitive and the green immature Wal-Mart primitive from BadCat's neighborhood down in Arizona.
"Locking" until I get all the good parts posted here.
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cali (1000+ posts) Thu Jun-04-09 06:40 PM
Response to Reply #29
33. oh for ****'s sake. now you're just loony toon ranting.
your consumed by hate and its stupid. No, we don't need to dissolve Hamas or Israel. And Hamas is more than a terrorist organization.
This is pointless. And I hate to clue you in, honey, but by your standards the U.S. is 100 fold more the terrorist organization than Israel. Iraq: Hundreds of thousands deads and lots more white phosphorus than the Israelis used. Afghanistan, Pakistan. And now you want the U.S. to go to war to dissolve Israel.
You really aren't operating with a full deck here.
Home run for the cali primitive.
armyowalgreens (1000+ posts) Thu Jun-04-09 06:43 PM
Response to Reply #33
35. The US government is no different.
And my solution is no different.
The Bush administration was already taken out. That part is done. Now we need to prosecute all who took part in terrorism and mass murder.
If the Obama administration continues the same acts of terror and mass murder, we need to take them out of power and prosecute as needed.
I'm not a loon. I'm someone willing to face the facts.
The Wal-Mart primitive reminds me of the young franksolich, when franksolich was, oh, circa 19 years old. "I'm someone willing to face the facts."
franksolich when 19 years old said that a lot.
cali (1000+ posts) Thu Jun-04-09 06:49 PM
Response to Reply #35
38. So if the Netanyahu gov't was taken out, you'd no longer advocate that we dissolve Israel? And sorry, the Obama administration iw waging a war in Afghanistan that kills civilians. Heck, not so long ago we bombed a wedding party. And we're using drones to bomb in Pakistan. Better start calling for impeachment now.
No, you're not living in the real world. Anyone that proposes that we forcibly dissolve Israel is living in loony toon world.
Name removed (0 posts) Thu Jun-04-09 06:58 PM
Response to Reply #38
44. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
cali (1000+ posts) Thu Jun-04-09 07:05 PM
Response to Reply #44
46. What does that even mean?
What would a secular gov't advocationg for both Palestinians and Israelis be advocating?
And just what the **** are talking about with your statement that we need to "call for other extreme forms of action" re Obama?
You must be hankering for pizza.
The loutish Brit primitive says something, but never mind.
Sezu (797 posts) Fri Jun-05-09 10:44 AM
Response to Reply #23
50. Hate......a great "progressive," trait.
Vegasaurus (1000+ posts) Fri Jun-05-09 03:52 PM
Response to Reply #50
54. Amazing what you read on a "progressive" forum, isn't it?
cali (1000+ posts) Thu Jun-04-09 06:00 PM
Response to Reply #8
12. lol the Native Americans certainly did attack- and so did the Mexicans.
You make my point. Just because Palestinians have attacked Israel in the past doesn't mean they will in the future- no if an equitable two state solution is arrived at. Now please tell me how many people you'd be willing to see perish in an attempt to "dissolve" Israel; 100,000, 300,000, a million? You do understand, don't you, that Israel wouldn't go along with such a plan and would fight it, right?
armyowalgreens (1000+ posts) Thu Jun-04-09 06:08 PM
Response to Reply #12
15. They still attack Israel. Not right now of course because Israel just had a mini genocide in palestine.
But they'll be back.
This isn't like the US/Native American situation.
We killed the vast majority of Native Americans, stuck them in territories and marginalized their protest. Now, they aren't fighting us anymore. However, they still deserve more than what we are doing.
In the middle east, people still want their land back. It's a fight between two religions. The only way to even remotely begin to solve this is to create one secular nation.
Frankly, I don't give a **** what the Israeli government wants or thinks. They are mass murderers that deserve to rot in jail.
cali (1000+ posts) Thu Jun-04-09 06:17 PM
Response to Reply #15
20. No, they didn't have a "mini genocide". There is no such thing as a "mini genocide"
The brutal treatment of Gazans and the recent attack that killed over a thousand, is deplorable. It is not, by any stretch of the imagination, genocide.
Your rage and hate are quite interesting. Chill.
armyowalgreens (1000+ posts) Thu Jun-04-09 06:24 PM
Response to Reply #20
25. They specifically targeted innocent civilians and peaceful infrastructure.
They were trying to destroy a people. That is genocide.
cali (1000+ posts) Thu Jun-04-09 06:36 PM
Response to Reply #25
31. If the Israelis were trying to destroy a people, they'd have done so.
In 40 plus years of occupation, the Palestinian population has grown, not diminished. You seem to see Israelis as cardboard cutout evil, just as some see Palestinians and Muslims as cardboard cut out evil. The kind of hate you exhibit toward Israel is simply ugly and simplistic.
armyowalgreens (1000+ posts) Thu Jun-04-09 06:39 PM
Response to Reply #31
32. Hating a government that bombs schools and aid stations is not wrong.
The Israeli government has demonstrated time and time again that they do not care about the welfare of the Palestinian people.
At best, they want to quiet them. At worst, they want to destroy them.
The only reason they haven't done so is because they know that would be a PR nightmare and would bring about more death and destruction.
cali (1000+ posts) Thu Jun-04-09 06:46 PM
Response to Reply #32
37. the U.S. has done that and is doing that.
And the history of the Israelis and Palestinians is far more complex than you seem to understand. Saying that the Israeli want to destroy the Palestinians is as stupid as saying the Palestiinians (had they the capability) want to destroy the Israelis.
And no, your cop out that you only hate the Israeli gov't doesn't fly. You stated that you believe that all Israeli land is Palestinian land and that you think "we" should "dissolve" Israel. You don't want it to exist. That's hate. Own it.
armyowalgreens (1000+ posts) Thu Jun-04-09 06:52 PM
Response to Reply #37
39. Wrong again.
I never stated that Palestinians owned that land. I said that they got screwed 60+ years ago and there is now a lot of death and destruction because of it.
I specifically stated that we need to create a single secular nation.
Like putting words in my mouth, eh? Stop it.
I said we should be dissolving the state of Israel. I said nothing about giving it over to the Palestinians.
Now tell me, what is it that I said now? Did I say "Kill all the JEWS!"? I know that's your next argument.
Well, no, the Wal-Mart primitive didn't actually say "Kill all the JEWS!" but it's obvious the Wal-Mart primitive wants the "Palestinians" to kill all the Jews.
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cali (1000+ posts) Thu Jun-04-09 07:02 PM
Response to Reply #39
45. "The people want their land back". That's a quote. From you.
you wan't to deny that you wrote it? Or perhaps you could deny what the context clearly shows you meant. Hey, go for it.
And dear heart, you are a case study in rank hypocrisy. You whinge about me putting words in your little mouth and then accuse me of saying something that I have never said to anyone. And have no intention of saying. If you ever participated in the I/P forum, you might know where I stand- which is clearly not a defense of Israel place.
You really are getting pathetic here, sweetie.
After which unterprimitiven, the faceless lynch mob that is 99% of the primitives on Skins's island get involved, and the Wal-Mart primitive and the cali primitive depart, the cali primitive having won.
And then after the lowly unterprimitiven have their say, pro or con, this:
Lithos (1000+ posts) Tue Jun-09-09 05:18 AM
Response to Original message
76. Locking
1) Article Title and Subject line do not agree
2) Until wikinews becomes more transparent and their editorial policy well understood, please do not reference them.
Lithos
DU Moderator
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Every time I have observed the wal-mart primitive he has been like this. It is literally a caricature of a liberal zealot. I hope it's just age, but I fear it's genetic.
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Every time I have observed the wal-mart primitive he has been like this. It is literally a caricature of a liberal zealot. I hope it's just age, but I fear it's genetic.
The Wal-Mart primitive's been around a while?
I never noticed, but I admit I miss a lot of primitives, because I'm always first looking for Primitives of Prominence.
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Wow...their answer is to dissolve a nation when someone doesn't like that nation. Should give everyone here an idea of certain types of liberals we are dealing with. To them 'we' are hated so 'we' should be no more. If more people could see this, they'd understand we are in a fight for our very nation, not a fight over policy and politics.
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:catfight: :lalala:
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Oh dear, I can dash the Walmart primitive's stance with just a few words.
Show me where the "Palestinians" are actually a "people".
Show me where there was ever a Palestiniain "state".
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Let`s see...which nations that exist today in the world are completely religious based.
Why I believe it is the muslim ones.
This idiot is as intellectually dishonest as one could ever be with the make it one secular nation foolishness as the muzzies are the ones who wish for the opposite.
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The Wal-Mart primitive's been around a while?
I never noticed, but I admit I miss a lot of primitives, because I'm always first looking for Primitives of Prominence.
I don't think he has been around very long. He seems to be a posting machine though, from the time I picked up on him to the time he hit 1,000 posts seemed very fast.
It always seem to be the same with him. He sets up strawmen then goes at them with zeal of a basic training private on the bayonet range. That's the reason I'm starting to wonder if he might not be a high-flying mole. He takes the liberal position to the logical extreme and then calls anyone who doesn't agree with him not liberal enough.
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Wal-Mart primitive gets his balls handed to him on a plate by the cali primitive
FWIW, the Hindu goddess Kali is known for cutting off the heads of her lovers. I have no idea what the cali prim has named himself or herself after. I just enjoy when symbols start to mesh. Symbols have a way of taking on a life of their own.
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Do you think this is worthy of a phone call to the manager at the Village Inn over in Mesa?
I sure wouldn't eat at a place that had slime like that working there.
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Do you think this is worthy of a phone call to the manager at the Village Inn over in Mesa?
I sure wouldn't eat at a place that had slime like that working there.
I was going to suggest that, since this idiot actually posted where they work.
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I was going to suggest that, since this idiot actually posted where they work.
It would sure make for some great Bouncy fodder.
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That's the reason I'm starting to wonder if he might not be a high-flying mole.
He looks like he might be.