The Conservative Cave
Current Events => The DUmpster => Topic started by: USA4ME on June 11, 2009, 05:09:06 PM
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readmoreoften
Wanted: need a consortium of legal geniuses to figure out how to make my partner's transition safe.
Okay, so, Mr. Readmoreoften is taking the big plunge and going from F to M. He is meeting with the therapist and starting T (testosterone) most likely within the month. From what I've seen, he will likely start passing more within a few months, and within the year he may no longer be recognizably female.
Herein lies some legal problems that we cannot afford to deal (i.e. can't afford to hire a lawyer) with and for which it seems there is little legal precedent.
1) Within the year, the sex marker on his driver's license will not match his appearance. Within a few months, it will be clear to any cop that pulls him over, and to any door person and convenience store clerk that asks for ID, that he is transsexual. After that, he will either appear transsexual or appear to have a fake ID. The normal method is to petition the state to change the sex marker. This seems to be done through changing the sex on the birth certificate. But of course we have some problems here...
2) Problem A: there are 3 states which refuse to change birth certificates, and one state (Texas) wherein 32 counties refuse to change birth certificates and the rest seem scattered in their legal decisions. Mr. RMO was born in Texas and that's where we own a home. Problem B: Other States (and other Texas Counties) that DO change BCs demand *proof* in the form of "completed genital surgeries". Apparently, many states just don't accept a doctor's note; they want to review the "surgical evidence". While this makes *some* sense for MTFs it makes *no* sense for FTMs: phalloplasty and vaginectomy together cost something like upward of $100,000+ out of pocket. Moreover, many (I'd even venture to say "most") FTMs have little interest in these surgeries.
3) SO: how can he get his BC changed? Will establishing residency in another state help? (Will he have to move away from me? To where?) If he doesn't get his BC changed, can he get his other documents changed, like social security card, drivers license, passport? These agencies seem to want "surgical proof" as well.
4) Name change will be relatively easy, I think. But how is he supposed to live with no documentation? I read that he won't be eligible for a passport for 5 years after a name change and they won't put an "M" on his passport unless he has genital surgery. I'm considering applying for work overseas. Will he be unable to leave the US for 5 years?
5) All the advice I've read says that he should continue to be FEMALE on his medical records because if he changes this he will not be able to get covered treatment for hysterectomy, oopherectomy, or treatment for gynecological cancers. How does this play out in the real world?
In a way, I'm not asking specifically for legal advice, but more for experience of others surrounding these issues. Maybe, for example, someone knows that if you establish residency in California, you can get a BC from Texas changed without incidence. Or maybe someone knows that, from experience, transmen don't have a real problem getting their passports changed, despite policy.
It's not like these issues can be "put off" until we can afford legal council. He'll physically change when he physically changes. Every transman we know lives on the margins of society--in people's garages, under the table jobs, without insurance, no car, etc.--or in San Francisco. Most of the websites I see are geared towards transwomen, public policy change, FTM health care/support, or are specific to California. None of these sites provide answers to our questions. They seem to be full of information, but they are not really helpful to FTMs in terms of documentation issues.
My partner needs an accurate driver's license at minimum. I'm afraid he's going to fall into a legal black hole.
Thanks in advance.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=221x137347
Uh..... it's going to look like a freak and eventually get its butt kicked if it doesn't stay clear of normal people, driver's license and birth certificate identification notwithstanding.
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The things these people have no concern about discussing in an open forum never cease to amaze me.
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WTF, over? :mental:
Ick. I wish I could un-read that.
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All the advice I've read says that he should continue to be FEMALE on his medical records because if he changes this he will not be able to get covered treatment for hysterectomy, oopherectomy, or treatment for gynecological cancers.
A "he" will never once in his life need treatment for female medical problems, so it appears "his" little make believe doesn't make it so, now does it?
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I love our advertising banners. Almost as good as adbot.
Transgender dating anyone?
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Mouthful (1000 posts) Thu Jun-11-09 08:18 PM
Original message
HELP! I'm a gay guy in love with a transgender f-to-m.
I don't know what to do with myself.
All kinds of problems can arise.
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So if readmoreoften is a lesbian then how does this work? She's now attracted to men because her partner is becoming one as best as she can?
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WTF, over? :mental:
Ick. I wish I could un-read that.
What he said. :mental:
Sheesh!!!
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I am so sick of these assholes demanding their Perversion-Of-The-Month be legalized, mainstreamed, honored, nickel-plated and declared righteous. It wasn't that many years ago you got treatment for this kind of crap. Nowadays you get a parade and a resolution from Hizzoner The Mayor.
Yet they wonder why people think gay marriage will be a slippery slope to even more bizarre "legal" unions. If you want to play freakshow, go in your bedroom and draw the shades. Don't expect me or the government to endorse and/or subsidize your circus tent antics.
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I am so sick of these assholes demanding their Perversion-Of-The-Month be legalized, mainstreamed, honored, nickel-plated and declared righteous. It wasn't that many years ago you got treatment for this kind of crap. Nowadays you get a parade and a resolution from Hizzoner The Mayor.
Yet they wonder why people think gay marriage will be a slippery slope to even more bizarre "legal" unions. If you want to play freakshow, go in your bedroom and draw the shades. Don't expect me or the government to endorse and/or subsidize your circus tent antics.
I was reading an interview (http://jarrettsblog.com/?p=909) earlier today with a Marine sniper in Iraq, and Andrew Sullivan's dumb ass pops up in the comments and immediately jumps on don't-ask-don't-tell. It was ridiculous. Their one-note obsession with sex and gender is pathetic.
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So it can afford 100,000.00 for self mutilation surgery, but can't afford the 1000 buck or so it would cost to get a consult with a lawyer to get all these questions answered?
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The things these people have no concern about discussing in an open sewer never cease to amaze me.
FIXED
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I'm flummoxed by this entire thread and the freakish problems that surround it.
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Another case where a strap-on just can't replace the real thing.
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Do these people know how retarded it is to call a He a She? and s She a He? Lets do a blood test and see if its a male or female.
Didn't there used to be a desert or an iceberg these people who banished to in the old days?
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If things are so bad for it here in this country, maybe it should move to Iran. I'm sure "Imadinnerjacket" would have an appropriate solution.
:fuelfire:
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Do these people know how retarded it is to call a He a She? and s She a He? Lets do a blood test and see if its a male or female.
Didn't there used to be a desert or an iceberg these people who banished to in the old days?
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v11/tucker13/special/ObamaLand.gif)
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A "he" will never once in his life need treatment for female medical problems, so it appears "his" little make believe doesn't make it so, now does it?
Maybe, but if he looks better in a dress than I do, I'll be pissed.
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Do these people know how retarded it is to call a He a She? and s She a He? Lets do a blood test and see if its a male or female.
Didn't there used to be a desert or an iceberg these people who banished to in the old days?
I normally call people what they want to be called, even if I think it makes no sense.
These people have a problem, a serious problem. They're not freaks, they're people. They're human beings. We
need to treat them like human beings and not bannish them or isolate them.
On a personal note, I thought the title for this thread was funny for one reason. Years ago when I was still of a conservative guy, this guy from another conservative church asked me out. I thought I knew him well because we had worked together. Like many conservative men, he opened the door for me, paid for the date, and everything. Very classy. He spoke in the middle about a conservative position he took on a political subject. Can't remember if we discussed politics elsewhere. Anyway, in the middle of the date, he confessed something to me. He liked to dress up like women. I asked him why. He said he just does. I tried to picture him looking like a woman and couldn't. His roommate was at the apartment later on, and I spent the rest of the night chit chatting with him. I couldn't handle it. lol.
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They have some deep issues that for sure.
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I normally call people what they want to be called, even if I think it makes no sense.
These people have a problem, a serious problem. They're not freaks, they're people. They're human beings. We need to treat them like human beings and not bannish them or isolate them.
I agree with you that these people have a problem.
What I have an issue with is that these people refuse to get help. I don't understand how these people can claim that they are a man trapped in a woman's body or vice versa-unless you're one of the few people in this world actually BORN a hermaphrodite. Rather than deal with the issues that have caused them to think that they are of the opposite gender, they'd rather grow/cut off breasts/penises at the cost of hundreds of thousands of dollars. WTF? And who pays for this? These are the same people that complain about how poor they are, so where are they getting this kind of money?
To me, that is the ultimate in selfishness; rather than just getting help, they spend all that money on something that is good ONLY for them-money which could be spent actually HELPING others. For people who bitch and moan about how greedy and selfish conservatives are, it seems to me that the DUmmies are the truly selfish ones.
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I agree with you that these people have a problem.
What I have an issue with is that these people refuse to get help. I don't understand how these people can claim that they are a man trapped in a woman's body or vice versa-unless you're one of the few people in this world actually BORN a hermaphrodite. Rather than deal with the issues that have caused them to think that they are of the opposite gender, they'd rather grow/cut off breasts/penises at the cost of hundreds of thousands of dollars. WTF? And who pays for this? These are the same people that complain about how poor they are, so where are they getting this kind of money?
To me, that is the ultimate in selfishness; rather than just getting help, they spend all that money on something that is good ONLY for them-money which could be spent actually HELPING others. For people who bitch and moan about how greedy and selfish conservatives are, it seems to me that the DUmmies are the truly selfish ones.
A friend of my sister's has this problem. He went to the psychologist, who encouraged him to take hormones to complete the process. I don't really know. Obviously, these people and some experts think the only solution is to complete the process of trying to become the other gender. This is going to cause him problems though. The company he works at is pretty accepting, but they're also having economical problems (like a lot of companies, so it's not his fault. lol). Anyway, if he loses his job, he will have a very hard time finding another job.
I have mixed feelings on this. I normally believe in letting people live and let live. I actually do in this case though. However, most of these people are not going to be able to complete the transformation of becoming the opposite gender. I'd say there's probably a serious hormonal imbalance or body parts from the other gender to make a person want to do this.
I don't read a lot of DU anymore. I would think if one has the money to get this surgery, then they're probably not as poor as claimed. Either that, or they're making the surgery up. Analytically speaking, that's a good point regarding money and helping the poor. I'm thinking these people are probably going through hell though. I can't imagine going through live wanting to be Melvin instead of Melanie.
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A friend of my sister's has this problem. He went to the psychologist, who encouraged him to take hormones to complete the process. I don't really know. Obviously, these people and some experts think the only solution is to complete the process of trying to become the other gender. This is going to cause him problems though. The company he works at is pretty accepting, but they're also having economical problems (like a lot of companies, so it's not his fault. lol). Anyway, if he loses his job, he will have a very hard time finding another job.
I have mixed feelings on this. I normally believe in letting people live and let live. I actually do in this case though. However, most of these people are not going to be able to complete the transformation of becoming the opposite gender. I'd say there's probably a serious hormonal imbalance or body parts from the other gender to make a person want to do this.
I don't read a lot of DU anymore. I would think if one has the money to get this surgery, then they're probably not as poor as claimed. Either that, or they're making the surgery up. Analytically speaking, that's a good point regarding money and helping the poor. I'm thinking these people are probably going through hell though. I can't imagine going through live wanting to be Melvin instead of Melanie.
Do you agree it is impossible to change genders no matter what you have done to yourself? This goes all the back to Christine Jorgensen (AKA George Jorgensen b.1926 d.1989). You nor I can change our DNA. You will die the gender you were born. There are no exceptions.
The more a person does to try to fool the world and himself, the more it becomes nothing but an intense drag show.
As sad as these complicated mental issue are to those who suffer them, don't you think it would be kinder and more civilized to promote their personal acceptance of something they cannot ever change? Don't you find the aiding and abetting of a human freak show to be a bit cruel?
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Do you agree it is impossible to change genders no matter what you have done to yourself? This goes all the back to Christine Jorgensen (AKA George Jorgensen b.1926 d.1989). You nor I can change our DNA. You will die the gender you were born. There are no exceptions.
The more a person does to try to fool the world and himself, the more it becomes nothing but an intense drag show.
As sad as these complicated mental issue are to those who suffer them, don't you think it would be kinder and more civilized to promote their personal acceptance of something they cannot ever change? Don't you find the aiding and abetting of a human freak show to be a bit cruel?
exactly. You cannot change reality by force of want
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Do you agree it is impossible to change genders no matter what you have done to yourself? This goes all the back to Christine Jorgensen (AKA George Jorgensen b.1926 d.1989). You nor I can change our DNA. You will die the gender you were born. There are no exceptions.
The more a person does to try to fool the world and himself, the more it becomes nothing but an intense drag show.
As sad as these complicated mental issue are to those who suffer them, don't you think it would be kinder and more civilized to promote their personal acceptance of something they cannot ever change? Don't you find the aiding and abetting of a human freak show to be a bit cruel?
No, I think calling people freaks is cruel.
If my sister's friend came to me and I was the psychologist, I first would have recommended testosterone and not estrogen to make him try to feel more comfortable with himself as a man. Otherwise, I'm going to be friends with these people. I'm going to be nice to these people unless they're an asshole. I might try to encourage them to dress their gender for particular events though.
BTW, what do you think of people who really do have parts for both genders? What gender are they?
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BTW, what do you think of people who really do have parts for both genders? What gender are they?
Lanie, the relevant scientific literature would have said individuals front and center. So, then, and provide links--who are they?
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No, I think calling people freaks is cruel.
If my sister's friend came to me and I was the psychologist, I first would have recommended testosterone and not estrogen to make him try to feel more comfortable with himself as a man. Otherwise, I'm going to be friends with these people. I'm going to be nice to these people unless they're an asshole. I might try to encourage them to dress their gender for particular events though.
BTW, what do you think of people who really do have parts for both genders? What gender are they?
That's an interesting liberalish first jump there, Lanie. I didn't call anyone a freak. I was referring to what they make of themselves. See the difference? You need to learn not to try to smear me by creating false impressions. It's dishonest and not very friendly.
Your second paragraph: Your advice as a would-be psychologist seems appropriate and worthy. I know nothing about hormone therapy in a personal way, but I know what synthetic hormones are suppose to do. It would be worth a try, as far as I know.
I encourage you to be nice/friendly to everyone. Doing so comes naturally to me because I am a conservative reality-based person. I embrace and respect individuals, not groups just because. I hope this admission of mine highlights our difference in a positive way.
Your third paragraph: Except for about three people in the history of the world, everyone born with both sex organs have been clearly one sex or the other. The secondary organ is not useable in a reproductive sense. It really is not a consideration in this discussion.
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Uh..... it's going to look like a freak and eventually get its butt kicked if it doesn't stay clear of normal people, driver's license and birth certificate identification notwithstanding.
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Not to mention that nasty little pair of X-chromosomes in every cell of it's body that say it's a female, no matter how badly it wants to be one of the boys.
GAIA DAMN YOU, REALITY!!!!!!! :banghead:
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Moreover, many (I'd even venture to say "most") FTMs have little interest in these surgeries.
Wants to be a man, but, dickless, yeah, it's a liberal alright...
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I have to go libertarian on this topic - I really don't care one way or the other - as long as what s/he doesn't have the chance to adversely affect me or others, and I don't have to pay for it, this person can do what they want. - They call it sex reassignment, I call it extreme cosmetic surgery. - because no matter how good the doctor is at rearranging your body bits, or how much hormone you flush yourself with, you can't change your chromosomes. Sorry.
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That's an interesting liberalish first jump there, Lanie. I didn't call anyone a freak. I was referring to what they make of themselves. See the difference? You need to learn not to try to smear me by creating false impressions. It's dishonest and not very friendly.
Okay, I read the word freakshow and thought you might have been calling people freaks. I'm sorry for jumping to conclusions.
Your second paragraph: Your advice as a would-be psychologist seems appropriate and worthy. I know nothing about hormone therapy in a personal way, but I know what synthetic hormones are suppose to do. It would be worth a try, as far as I know.
I encourage you to be nice/friendly to everyone. Doing so comes naturally to me because I am a conservative reality-based person. I embrace and respect individuals, not groups just because. I hope this admission of mine highlights our difference in a positive way.
It does. :) I didn't really think you went around calling people names or being mean to them for doing something like dressing as the opposite gender. But then again, I didn't give much thought as to how you might be treating people in real life.
I do appreciate you saying that. :)
Your third paragraph: Except for about three people in the history of the world, everyone born with both sex organs have been clearly one sex or the other. The secondary organ is not useable in a reproductive sense. It really is not a consideration in this discussion.
I don't see how you can come to that conclusion. Both sex organs are there. If both are capable of reproduction, then I would think that makes two genders.
No more arguing tonight. I need to *try* to sleep. lol.
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Not the best source to link to, but it does quote a couple of reputable sources:
Article from the NYT (http://www.nytimes.com/2006/09/24/magazine/24intersexkids.html)
Doctors put the actual chance of hermaphroditic birth at somewhere between 1 in 2000 to 1 in 4500. So chances are that these people who want the gender reassignment surgery (like the DUmpmonkey that started this thread) are not actually hermaphrodites.
Also, people who are born pseudo-male or pseudo-female may have the reproductive organs of both sexes, but chances are that neither set will work. According to the article, certain criteria have to be met in order to determine which gender the child was intended to be (basically, it's about the size of the penis/clitoris and whether or not there are any medical conditions related to the hermaphroditism that would impede bodily functions.)
Anyway, back to the DUmmies...
Do I believe that the DUmmie has a SO who was a hermaphrodite? Hell no. I think their "friend" is just a very sick, very sad individual who obviously has some issues with sexuality, gender, and their body. I fail to see why society should see these people as normal or mainstream individuals, when clearly they are not. The deep-seated psychological issues at play when someone who was NOT born intersex wants to undergo gender reassignment surgery are tremendous, and I honestly do not believe that changing their sexual organs/gender will put these issues to rest. I think it may only make them worse.