The Conservative Cave
Current Events => Politics => Topic started by: Konssurvative1 on April 13, 2009, 01:19:02 PM
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I know I am going to get criticism for this, but I think that OBAMA Administration handled this well. They waited it out a little bit, to see what direction the Pirates (terrorists) were going to go. Then they sent in Navy snipers and seals...to get the job done. This was exactly what I told my wife on Friday should be done...and it is what they did...The only blood shed was the terrorists errr Pirates Blood. Yes they are going to ramp up their pirating...but the rest of the world has to realize these guys are just rag tag pirates who have gotten away with it...They are upset because they now know we're not gonna take it. And now how are they gonna get more pirates to come on board...so to speak :hyper: When they know that some governements are gonna start killin them.
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I know I am going to get criticism for this, but I think that OBAMA Administration handled this well. They waited it out a little bit, to see what direction the Pirates (terrorists) were going to go. Then they sent in Navy snipers and seals...to get the job done. This was exactly what I told my wife on Friday should be done...and it is what they did...The only blood shed was the terrorists errr Pirates Blood. Yes they are going to ramp up their pirating...but the rest of the world has to realize these guys are just rag tag pirates who have gotten away with it...They are upset because they now know we're not gonna take it. And now how are they gonna get more pirates to come on board...so to speak :hyper: When they know that some governements are gonna start killin them.
(http://img393.imageshack.us/img393/63/picardnofacepalmlf3.jpg)
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To the extent nodding 'yes' when prompted to do so by the (inherited) military leadership during the situation and decision briefing amounts to 'Handling it,' I suppose you have a point.
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I'm curious. What exactly did Jihaddy Jug-ears do that you find to like? I'm searching for specifics. I cannot find a lot of detail about his involvement in the outcome. I'd like to give him an ATTABOY, too, but I just don't know if this rises to the occasion.
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My post yesterday pointed out that President Obama did not actually order a rescue attempt, he merely reaffirmed the standing authority on scene commanders had to act if lives were in imminent danger. Jonah Goldberg makes the fair point that Obama is Commander in Chief and this happened on his watch, so he should gain congratulations just as he would have been blamed had it gone poorly. I have no problem with that my beef was with the news agencies i.e. Obama cheerleaders who were spinning the event as a decisive action by the President. It wasn't. There were also reports that the President gave orders for a rescue if an opportunity presented itself, that does not appear to be true and it would have been a significant escalation from merely confirming standing orders allowing force if a death appeared imminent.
The legal standard for the use of deadly force is a legitimate fear for your life or the lives of others. That same standard is infused into all military rules of engagement (ROE) I have seen. The commander of the Bainbridge had the authority to kill the pirates at any time he felt the lives of US citizens were in imminent danger. What President Obama did was to confirm that authority. There is some question as to whether his initial orders restricted the ability of the military to intervene while the negotiations were going on. This comes from the fact that no action was taken when Phillips jumped off the lifeboat and attempted to escape. It is unknown whether there were actually restrictions placed.
http://www.blackfive.net/main/2009/04/congratulating-obama-on-the-rescue.html
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I don't use this often...but clearly, this is deserving... :bitchslap:
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my impressions on this..
Obama had little to do with any of it - there was enough room in orders given to make a rescue attempt, and that room was exploited successfully. Plain and simple.
What I find interesting is the lack of outcry from the loonysquad - If GWB was President during this crisis, and the military took out a group of pirates while one was 'negotiating in good faith' and 'rumors that the pirates had run out of ammunition' were swirling about, there would be calls for impeachment and yet another reason to 'frogmarch them to The Hague'..
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if you were happy to kill the pirates, why not send the seals in Thursday ?
and why did it take till Saturday for the 0 to do anything ?
the real question is why are these ships not mounting a few 50 cal machine guns to take care of this shit ?
I mean how much cheaper would that be compared to multimillion doillar ransoms ?
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http://tyrannysentinel.blogspot.com/2009/04/edit-that-out-of-history-books.html
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To the extent nodding 'yes' when prompted to do so by the (inherited) military leadership during the situation and decision briefing amounts to 'Handling it,' I suppose you have a point.
He didn't nod to them though. He made them wait...not once but TWICE for "authorization" because WH lawyers went weak kneed over the whole situation.
It's the equivalent of you having an enemy T-72 lined up (you know...the REAL juicy target with the four commo antennas on the turret) and you have to wait to get authorization from the CG to fire.
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It's the equivalent of you having an enemy T-72 lined up (you know...the REAL juicy target with the four commo antennas on the turret) and you have to wait to get authorization from the CG to fire.
BOOM !!!!....OOOOPS!....dang hair-trigger....I told'em to fix that.
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Finally, the ire gets up here. You have to remember something, I am used to posting at the hannity site, where there is lots of debate and desenting opionion. I don't mind that people disagree with what I said yesterday. I said it 1. before things were Crystal Clear as to what happened, and 2. to see if anyone would actually take apart what I have said. My thought on this has changed somewhat but the bottom line is that I didn't think OBAMA would have let the military act at all. And Like I said...I told my wife on Friday...Seals Seals Seals! That would end this thing quickly. I was glad that Obama let them do the jobs they were trained to do. I also believe that he waited way too long to let them do it. It should have been done on Thursday...
UNDIES...I find that he allowed the Seals to act at all was encouraging. How many times did LIBBY BILLY C not allow Bin Laden to be killed because of legal issues, or he could not varify enough that Bin Laden was indeed the target. I think it is a step in the right direction that the Seals got in and did what they had to do, and that they were allowed. Unless they acted without orders. Which we still may find out did indeed happen...shoot first to protect the captain and get orders later...Which would be even cooler if it happened that way...cept for the fact that it throws military order right out the window. Check that...that would not be cool. But I think you get what I am saying. I would love to see that the military had to act did act while Obama was still mullying it over with the legal eagles at the WH.
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And one more thing...H-5s allaround for those of you who Bitchslapped me!!!I had it coming!!! :uhsure:
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And one more thing...H-5s allaround for those of you who Bitchslapped me!!!I had it coming!!! :uhsure:
bitchsla[[ed for being a suck up.
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UNDIES...I find that he allowed the Seals to act at all was encouraging. How many times did LIBBY BILLY C not allow Bin Laden to be killed because of legal issues, or he could not varify enough that Bin Laden was indeed the target. I think it is a step in the right direction that the Seals got in and did what they had to do, and that they were allowed. Unless they acted without orders. Which we still may find out did indeed happen...shoot first to protect the captain and get orders later...Which would be even cooler if it happened that way...cept for the fact that it throws military order right out the window. Check that...that would not be cool. But I think you get what I am saying. I would love to see that the military had to act did act while Obama was still mullying it over with the legal eagles at the WH.
I have a hard time believing our Bower-In-Chief, the Origin-Challenged One, has the mental or character fortitude to micromanage any military operation. I do believe the Seals acted independently in honor of their training, oath, and humanity.
And BTW, I do not BS. Only H5's from me. Who am I to judge? :innocent:
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I have a hard time believing our Bower-In-Chief, the Origin-Challenged One, has the mental or character fortitude to micromanage any military operation. I do believe the Seals acted independently in honor of their training, oath, and humanity.
And BTW, I do not BS. Only H5's from me. Who am I to judge? :innocent:
I still think that the fact that it happened is a good thing...I almost expected that there would be a no action order rather than anything remotely close to a kill them if you have the chance order or anything beyond that. I still think he was not that on top of this...but the fact that he left it open is more bush like then clinton like. If you get what I am trying to say.
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Everyone here agrees with that sentiment as expressed but the issue is the inclusion of a CinC that played no role in the events. The ship's captain made the decision, not Obama. Obama's biggest credit was not getting in the way.
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Everyone here agrees with that sentiment as expressed but the issue is the inclusion of a CinC that played no role in the events. The ship's captain made the decision, not Obama. Obama's biggest credit was not getting in the way.
That is what I am saying...He got out of his own way and let them handle it. I never really was saying that he did anything great...I am saying that he did not stop it from happening as Clinton did many times.
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That is what I am saying...He got out of his own way and let them handle it. I never really was saying that he did anything great...I am saying that he did not stop it from happening as Clinton did many times.
Well, there's a tremendous difference between allowing standard procedures of not allowing innocents to be killed when the local on-site commander has the knowledge of an imminent threat and the power to stop it.
Props to Obama would be appropriate if he had actually ordered the SEALs to affect a rescue. Obama SHOULD have said, "If they do not return the captian by X I want him rescued. Now go do that voodoo that you do oh so well."
The way the lefties--not you--are playing this we might as well congratulate Obama for every successful open heart surgery procedure staged since 20 Jan 2009.
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From an email string I received today from a buddy who is Navy Cmdr. Ret...Naval intelligence...I now rescind what I said in the original post. OBAMA did nothing to help this situation. He tried to handcuff the Cmdr on scene, and only after Cmdr. went with the immenent danger Rule for engaging did the seal team take the shot after they saw one of the terrorists hold an AK47 to his back...OBAMA Blew it. :hammer:
Having spoken to some SEAL pals here in Virginia Beach yesterday and asking why this thing dragged out for 4 days, I got the following:
1. Obama wouldn't authorize the DEVGRU/NSWC SEAL teams to the scene for 36 hours going against OSC (on scene commander) recommendation.
2. Once they arrived, Obama imposed restrictions on their ROE that they couldn't do anything unless the hostage's life was in "imminent" danger.
3. The first time the hostage jumped, the SEALS had the raggies all sighted in, but could not fire due to ROE restriction.
4. When the navy RIB came under fire as it approached with supplies, no fire was returned due to ROE restrictions. As the raggies were shooting at the RIB, they were exposed and the SEALS had them all dialed in.
5. Obama specifically denied two rescue plans developed by the Bainbridge CPN and SEAL teams.
6. Bainbridge CPN and SEAL team CDR finally decide they have the OpArea and OSC authority to solely determine risk to hostage. 4 hours later, 3 dead raggies.
7. Obama immediately claims credit for his "daring and decisive" behavior. As usual with him, it's BS.
So per our last email thread, I'm downgrading Oohbaby's performace to D-. Only reason it's not an F is that the hostage survived.
Read the following accurate account:
Philips’ first leap into the warm, dark water of the Indian Ocean hadn’t worked out as well. With the Bainbridge in range and a rescue by his country’s Navy possible, Philips threw himself off of his lifeboat prison, enabling Navy shooters onboard the destroyer a clear shot at his captors — and none was taken.
The guidance from National Command Authority — the president of the United States, Barack Obama — had been clear: a peaceful solution was the only acceptable outcome to this standoff unless the hostage’s life was in clear, extreme danger.
The next day, a small Navy boat approaching the floating raft was fired on by the Somali pirates — and again no fire was returned and no pirates killed. This was again due to the cautious stance assumed by Navy personnel thanks to the combination of a lack of clear guidance from Washington and a mandate from the commander in chief’s staff not to act until Obama, a man with no background of dealing with such issues and no track record of decisiveness, decided that any outcome other than a “peaceful solution†would be acceptable.
After taking fire from the Somali kidnappers again Saturday night, the onscene commander decided he’d had enough. Keeping his authority to act in the case of a clear and present danger to the hostage’s life and having heard nothing from Washington since yet another request to mount a rescue operation had been denied the day before, the Navy officer — unnamed in all media reports to date — decided the AK47 one captor had leveled at Philips’ back was a threat to the hostage’s life and ordered the NSWC team to take their shots.
Three rounds downrange later, all three brigands became enemy KIA and Philips was safe.
There is upside, downside, and spinside to the series of events over the last week that culminated in yesterday’s dramatic rescue of an American hostage.
Almost immediately following word of the rescue, the Obama administration and its supporters claimed victory against pirates in the Indian Ocean and declared that the dramatic end to the standoff put paid to questions of the inexperienced president’s toughness and decisiveness.
Despite the Obama administration’s (and its sycophants’) attempt to spin yesterday’s success as a result of bold, decisive leadership by the inexperienced president, the reality is nothing of the sort. What should have been a standoff lasting only hours — as long as it took the USS Bainbridge and its team of NSWC operators to steam to the location — became an embarrassing four day and counting standoff between a ragtag handful of criminals with rifles and a U.S. Navy warship.
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So I was right. I'll be dam! :o
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So I was right. I'll be dam! :o
Undies...This comes from a very good and reliable source that I won't be able to go more into detail about...but he knows his shit!
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So I was right. I'll be dam! :o
And this fits right in with what 5412 posted from WorldNetDaily.
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"Mr President, Mr President! Terrorists have taken one of our ships and are threatening to kill the Capt. and crew, what do we do, sir??"
Obama: "Present".
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From an email string I received today from a buddy who is Navy Cmdr. Ret...Naval intelligence...I now rescind what I said in the original post. OBAMA did nothing to help this situation. He tried to handcuff the Cmdr on scene, and only after Cmdr. went with the immenent danger Rule for engaging did the seal team take the shot after they saw one of the terrorists hold an AK47 to his back...OBAMA Blew it. :hammer:
Having spoken to some SEAL pals here in Virginia Beach yesterday and asking why this thing dragged out for 4 days, I got the following:
1. Obama wouldn't authorize the DEVGRU/NSWC SEAL teams to the scene for 36 hours going against OSC (on scene commander) recommendation.
2. Once they arrived, Obama imposed restrictions on their ROE that they couldn't do anything unless the hostage's life was in "imminent" danger.
3. The first time the hostage jumped, the SEALS had the raggies all sighted in, but could not fire due to ROE restriction.
4. When the navy RIB came under fire as it approached with supplies, no fire was returned due to ROE restrictions. As the raggies were shooting at the RIB, they were exposed and the SEALS had them all dialed in.
5. Obama specifically denied two rescue plans developed by the Bainbridge CPN and SEAL teams.
6. Bainbridge CPN and SEAL team CDR finally decide they have the OpArea and OSC authority to solely determine risk to hostage. 4 hours later, 3 dead raggies.
7. Obama immediately claims credit for his "daring and decisive" behavior. As usual with him, it's BS.
So per our last email thread, I'm downgrading Oohbaby's performace to D-. Only reason it's not an F is that the hostage survived.
Read the following accurate account:
Philips’ first leap into the warm, dark water of the Indian Ocean hadn’t worked out as well. With the Bainbridge in range and a rescue by his country’s Navy possible, Philips threw himself off of his lifeboat prison, enabling Navy shooters onboard the destroyer a clear shot at his captors — and none was taken.
The guidance from National Command Authority — the president of the United States, Barack Obama — had been clear: a peaceful solution was the only acceptable outcome to this standoff unless the hostage’s life was in clear, extreme danger.
The next day, a small Navy boat approaching the floating raft was fired on by the Somali pirates — and again no fire was returned and no pirates killed. This was again due to the cautious stance assumed by Navy personnel thanks to the combination of a lack of clear guidance from Washington and a mandate from the commander in chief’s staff not to act until Obama, a man with no background of dealing with such issues and no track record of decisiveness, decided that any outcome other than a “peaceful solution†would be acceptable.
After taking fire from the Somali kidnappers again Saturday night, the onscene commander decided he’d had enough. Keeping his authority to act in the case of a clear and present danger to the hostage’s life and having heard nothing from Washington since yet another request to mount a rescue operation had been denied the day before, the Navy officer — unnamed in all media reports to date — decided the AK47 one captor had leveled at Philips’ back was a threat to the hostage’s life and ordered the NSWC team to take their shots.
Three rounds downrange later, all three brigands became enemy KIA and Philips was safe.
There is upside, downside, and spinside to the series of events over the last week that culminated in yesterday’s dramatic rescue of an American hostage.
Almost immediately following word of the rescue, the Obama administration and its supporters claimed victory against pirates in the Indian Ocean and declared that the dramatic end to the standoff put paid to questions of the inexperienced president’s toughness and decisiveness.
Despite the Obama administration’s (and its sycophants’) attempt to spin yesterday’s success as a result of bold, decisive leadership by the inexperienced president, the reality is nothing of the sort. What should have been a standoff lasting only hours — as long as it took the USS Bainbridge and its team of NSWC operators to steam to the location — became an embarrassing four day and counting standoff between a ragtag handful of criminals with rifles and a U.S. Navy warship.
Hi,
As a fellow Cub fan who is heading north for the summer to see 25 games at Wrigley, I applaud your efforts. I called it right away when I saw the words "imminent danger" and got thumped pretty well for it. I also emailed some folks in the military and was hearing whispers but nothing to the degree you posted. Last night I posted something under breaking news and used the source of World Net Daily....and the source was not put down on this forum, but understandibly challenged. Between your source and what I posted I seriously doubt too many folks would have an issue with the validity. Thank you for seeing it through.
With that being said, I have a major concern. It is the fact that the implication of this behavior is not being missed by our enemies; but rather by the American people. The mainstream media will not pick it up so much of the public is in the dark. At the same time you can be sure our enemies know exactly how courageous our new president is. He is putting all of us, liberal, conservative, and anything in between at great risk and nobody seems to be doing anything about it.
Couple that with the recent report from the DHS, the biggest threat to our country seems to be those who disagree with their political agenda.....
Is anyone else concerned about this like I am? What this is to me is the tip of the iceberg and I worry for my children and grandchildren.
regards,
5412
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5412, in the big national security picture, the fact that our enemies will figure this out is moderately worse than the fact that the MSM will try to keep the public from figuring it out; our people can always project the enemy's planning assumptions and take them into account in our own planning, after all. The card castle will inevitably crash at some point in the next 3-1/2 years, resulting in some sort of military debacle, which may bring the public around somewhat but will undoubtedly also result in the Administration conducting a scapegoat-hunt in DOD to take the blame off themselves. So, in the DOD microcosm, the fact that the public has no clue is really somewhat worse since it basically means a bunch of our own people are going to end up getting killed by the NCA's underlying incompetence at some point, and then the survivors or senior leaders involved will be crucified in the name of protecting the Obamites.
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Is anyone else concerned about this like I am? What this is to me is the tip of the iceberg and I worry for my children and grandchildren.
Extremely concerned on the surface, but I'm waiting for it to sink in. This all seems pretty surreal right now. My safe and secure American upbringing is at war with my gut instinct. I know me and I know logic will prevail, but right now, I have no clue how to react in a meaningful and useful way. I doubt that I am alone here. It's going to take some time for folks to come to grips with the events unfolding before their very eyes. Some longer than others. Me, not long at all.
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Did anyone notice that the ball was first placed in Hillary's ballpark and after a few days of dead silence CinC took over. Could it be that everyone is blaming the pirate problem in the area on the no-government in Somalia and who is responsible for that?
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Extremely concerned on the surface, but I'm waiting for it to sink in. This all seems pretty surreal right now. My safe and secure American upbringing is at war with my gut instinct. I know me and I know logic will prevail, but right now, I have no clue how to react in a meaningful and useful way. I doubt that I am alone here. It's going to take some time for folks to come to grips with the events unfolding before their very eyes. Some longer than others. Me, not long at all.
Hi Lord,
I would be embarrassed to tell you the lengths my wife and I have gone to prepare. Needless to say we are well armed because it could get pretty ugly. In addition we also bought water purification tablets and a water purification kit.....something we should have had long ago. We live in a hurricane area most of the year and they normally tell you to have at least 30 days supply worth of food. What we do is when we get back here in the fall, stock up really good, lots of canned goods, etc., then by the grace of God we have not seen fit to have to dig in to the emergency supply, we take it and donate it to the food bank.
I have come to the conclusion that one can only prepare to help himself and his family survive, the government is not capable of protecting us all. I am fortunate that my wife is equally as concerned, she now goes to the gun range with me more frequently and i have no fear about her protecting herself if it came down to that.
In the meantime, so far the only other option I can think of is to continually write congress, scream, do whatever so things can hopefully get back on an even keel.
It is very uncomfortable for a lot of us emotionally I suspect. Something gnaws at my gut that says things just are not right.
Thanks for the response,
5412
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5412, in the big national security picture, the fact that our enemies will figure this out is moderately worse than the fact that the MSM will try to keep the public from figuring it out; our people can always project the enemy's planning assumptions and take them into account in our own planning, after all. The card castle will inevitably crash at some point in the next 3-1/2 years, resulting in some sort of military debacle, which may bring the public around somewhat but will undoubtedly also result in the Administration conducting a scapegoat-hunt in DOD to take the blame off themselves. So, in the DOD microcosm, the fact that the public has no clue is really somewhat worse since it basically means a bunch of our own people are going to end up getting killed by the NCA's underlying incompetence at some point, and then the survivors or senior leaders involved will be crucified in the name of protecting the Obamites.
Sort of a Blackhawk Down scenario?
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Sort of a Blackhawk Down scenario?
Hi Rich,
I used to live in Pensacola and when we saw what happened after Katrina it really concerned us. We had lived not that far away and survived a number of hurricanes. It was just a matter of hours before one would have declared martial law and the first thing the stupid mayor did was confiscate the guns so the law abiding citizens could not defent themselves.
In my mind's eye, should something happen here in this country, I fear that scene might be repeated in dozens of locations all across the country. Just ask yourself a few questions. What would we do if our water supply was contaminated? What would we do if the food supply got interrupted? What would we do if we lost power and there was no expectation of it being restored in short order?
When you are done with those, you realize there are things you can do to at least batten down the hatches and hopefully protect yourself and your family.
I am a believer that it is better to have an contingency plan, well thought out in a folder, and never have to open the folder, than to have no plan at all.
regards,
5412
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Hi Rich,
I used to live in Pensacola and when we saw what happened after Katrina it really concerned us. We had lived not that far away and survived a number of hurricanes. It was just a matter of hours before one would have declared martial law and the first thing the stupid mayor did was confiscate the guns so the law abiding citizens could not defent themselves.
In my mind's eye, should something happen here in this country, I fear that scene might be repeated in dozens of locations all across the country. Just ask yourself a few questions. What would we do if our water supply was contaminated? What would we do if the food supply got interrupted? What would we do if we lost power and there was no expectation of it being restored in short order?
When you are done with those, you realize there are things you can do to at least batten down the hatches and hopefully protect yourself and your family.
I am a believer that it is better to have an contingency plan, well thought out in a folder, and never have to open the folder, than to have no plan at all.
regards,
5412
Good evening 5412.
I have 6 days of food and water in the trunk of each car. I also have water purification tablets, 1st aid kit, entrenching tool, thermal blankets, survival knifes, fire starting kit, induction flash light and hand crank radio in each car.
The house is equipped along these same lines but with additional food and water storage.
I have a plan. I also have the resources and arms to survive a prolonged loss of "government" provided services.
I also have a *GOOD location to fall back to if the interuption of services exceeds 30 days.
*Get Out Of Dodge
I have spent the best part of the last decade planning on it.
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Sort of a Blackhawk Down scenario?
Something on that order...or a Desert One. Those events were unique to the times, but a dithering CINC with unclear and mutable policy positions can easily create his own new flavor of fiasco.
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"Mr President, Mr President! Terrorists have taken one of our ships and are threatening to kill the Capt. and crew, what do we do, sir??"
Obama: "Present".
:rotf:
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Did anyone notice that the ball was first placed in Hillary's ballpark and after a few days of dead silence CinC took over. Could it be that everyone is blaming the pirate problem in the area on the no-government in Somalia and who is responsible for that?
That is part of the problem...whom in somalia do we hold accountble? There is no government only war lords...This is what It would be like if street gangs ever decided to take over in a way that they are capable...They only want to have their turf and sell their drugs...but in every big, medium and small city in this country the gangs could out war the police departments in one day...But they don't want that...they just want to sell their drugs and make money. They don't want to be bothered. In Somalia the gangs and warlords...they are fighting for survival and for control of their area...They are no government they rule with violence...So how do we negotiate or open talks with them...to do so is to legitimize thuggery...which in it's most basic form, isn't that the bush doctrine...
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Good evening 5412.
I have 6 days of food and water in the trunk of each car. I also have water purification tablets, 1st aid kit, entrenching tool, thermal blankets, survival knifes, fire starting kit, induction flash light and hand crank radio in each car.
The house is equipped along these same lines but with additional food and water storage.
I have a plan. I also have the resources and arms to survive a prolonged loss of "government" provided services.
I also have a *GOOD location to fall back to if the interuption of services exceeds 30 days.
*Get Out Of Dodge
I have spent the best part of the last decade planning on it.
I live south east of Chicago...in Indiana...I have always worried about a nuclear attack or dirty bomb...If that happens...my plan is to get out of dodge...Prevailing winds blows most fallout over lake Michigan...but the bomb would be most effective if it was detonated on south side more populace area...many of Chicagos homes are there. My plan is to drive like a bat out of hell South to and then once I am far enough south to then go west and then north...got a cabin in the North woods...could hold up there for months!!!