The Conservative Cave
Current Events => The DUmpster => Topic started by: MrsSmith on February 14, 2009, 10:56:18 PM
-
The Straight Story (1000+ posts) Sat Feb-14-09 11:24 PM
Original message (http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x5056310)
What does 'having freedom' mean really to you?
Advertisements [?]
Is it being able to have control over your own body in the choices you make - whether to have an abortion or many kids, does it mean that as a business owner you can allow people to breastfeed in your establishment or not, does it mean you want a choice to go to a place that allows smoking (whether pot, cigs, cigars, pipes, whatever) or one that does not, does it mean you can own a gun or not, Does it mean as a homeless person you can choose to live in a tent without rules versus in a shelter with it's restrictions, and I suppose the list could go on all day here.
I am not talking about freedom FROM things, but freedom that enables people to make choices.
Where do you think we stop/punish the choice of others and why?
One of the things I sense from others is that "If your choice affects/infringes on me..." kind of things, but then one can make an argument that anything you do does affect/infringe on others. If you drink alcohol (or drive a car, have certain light bulbs in your house, use a gas powered mower, etc) you are more at risk in the health arena (or environment, etc based on previous list), and one can map that back to costs/taxes and so on.
How do we balance the Nashian idea (A beautiful mind movie) "Do what is best for yourself and the group to get the best result" with individual freedom?
Sarah Ibarruri (1000+ posts) Sat Feb-14-09 11:36 PM
Response to Original message
1. It means not fearing that the rich and powerful are going to be allowed to steal my chances in life
It means that I have the freedom to feel peaceful that if I end up sick or jobless, I will not end up a bag lady.
It means that I have the freedom to feel relaxed that my government is ensuring that the food I buy is tainted with poisons.
It means that I have the freedom of assurance that my government oversees banks so that they don't sneak under my nose a stylishly written loan document that result in me ending up foreclosed or bankrupted.
It means that I have the freedom to know that my govt. oversees health insurance, so that if I pay health insurance to take care of me when I'm sick, that health insurance WILL have to take care of me when I'm sick.
Stuff like that.
Freedom means that my government takes care of me. OK! ::) ::)
The OP is interesting, but SS has a major problem with recognizing what actually affects someone else. ::)
-
Sarah Ibarruri, you are one truly stupid bitch.
-
Nice typo. We can only hope her food is poisoned.
freedom to feel relaxed that my government is ensuring that the food I buy is tainted with poisons.
-
The only freedom they want is the freedom to tell everyone else what to do and how to do it.
-
The only freedom they want is the freedom to tell everyone else what to do and how to do it.
Close.
They also want others to pay for what they think should be given to them at no cost.
-
Sarah Ibarruri, you are one truly stupid bitch.
Nah, more like a sheep than a bitch. As long as a sheep gets it's hay and water, life is good.
-
Nice typo. We can only hope her food is poisoned.
freedom to feel relaxed that my government is ensuring that the food I buy is tainted with poisons.
We can only hope . . . (need that praying simile again!) :tongue: :innocent:
-
Here are some of the freedoms I wish we had:
Freedom from having my pocket picked by the federal government so that DUmmies can continue to thrive and vote for Dimrats....
Freedom to do with my land what I want without having to get an enviromental impact report for a permit to dig a hole to erect a post to anchor my dog to....
Freedom to save for my own retirement, risks and all, instead of having 15.3% of what I earn stolen from me for a "retirement system" that will (probably) not exist when I retire....
Freedom to shoot any dumbass lawyer that brings charges against any citizen who shoots and kills a criminal in the act of committing a crime, and the judge that decides to proceed with such a trial (this also applies to any lawyer that wishes to defend any of the detainees at Gitmo)....
Just to name a few....
-
Surprisingly intelligent question for Straight Story. I suspect it would've sounded a lot less intelligent if he had supplied his own opinions and supporting rationales for them.
-
Sarah Ibarruri (1000+ posts) Sat Feb-14-09 11:36 PM
Response to Original message
1. It means not fearing that the rich and powerful are going to be allowed to steal my chances in life
It means that I have the freedom to feel peaceful that if I end up sick or jobless, I will not end up a bag lady.
It means that I have the freedom to feel relaxed that my government is ensuring that the food I buy is tainted with poisons.
It means that I have the freedom of assurance that my government oversees banks so that they don't sneak under my nose a stylishly written loan document that result in me ending up foreclosed or bankrupted.
It means that I have the freedom to know that my govt. oversees health insurance, so that if I pay health insurance to take care of me when I'm sick, that health insurance WILL have to take care of me when I'm sick.
Stuff like that.
You know who wlse have their jobs, food, housing and healthcare supplied for them?
Slaves.
-
Slaves.
And prisoners.
-
And prisoners.
At least prisoners earned their status by preying upon by innocent people.
I s'pose an argument could be made about DUmmies preying upon honest, hard-working Americans vis-a-vis their legislators.
-
The freedom to have other people pay for my choices?
-
Sarah Ibarruri, you are one truly stupid bitch.
In late 2004, just before the presidential elections, this primitive swore she was leaving the United States if George Bush was re-elected.
Well, George Bush was re-elected, and I kept waiting for her to announce she was leaving.
She never left.
Another primitive lied, damn it.
-
I am not talking about freedom FROM things, but freedom that enables people to make choices.
That line, right there, is the turd in this punchbowl.
It's a good thing to discuss the nature of freedom. The political philosophers whose ideas are the basis of pretty much any sort of political arrangement you can think of, break freedom (liberty) into two categories - negative liberties and positive liberties.
Negative liberties are the things you are free from(or would like to be free from). Such as, freedom from religious persecution, freedom from unwarranted arrest and/or detainment, freedom from excessive taxation, freedom from burdensome regulation, etc.
Positive liberties are the things you are free to do or have. However, it isn't as simple as "You're free to have a gun if you so choose" or "You're free to marry a goat of the same gender as yourself" - these are negative liberties, as the liberties in question do not provide you with anything, but merely withdraw limitations. Positive liberties are provisions for material goods and services - the freedom to have a gun given to you, the freedom to have your same-sex bestial wedding service provided at no charge, etc.
Obviously, negative liberties are more often associated with Locke, Hume, de Tocqueville, and the like - the guys our founding fathers boned up on when they thought up our nation's government, and their ideological descendants.
Just as obviously, positive liberties are most strongly associated with Marx and Engels, Freud, etc. (And no offense Frank, as I know you're something of a fan of Freud, but he was absolutely a pinko dirtbag.)
The Straight Story's aforementioned turd turned what could have possibly been an interesting conversation to watch into another commie circle-jerk.
-
Freedom means that my government takes care of me. OK! ::) ::)
The OP is interesting, but SS has a major problem with recognizing what actually affects someone else. ::)
Your city's general hospital is the closest example to government-run health coverage we have. Wander over there some time and let the rest of us know if you would rather be treated there, or at a private hospital/ER.
-
How about the freedom to earn wages based on my ability to perform rather that based on a union boss who makes more than my company CEO telling my company it has to pay me based on how long I've been on the job. Not the mention the freedom to spend my earned money in a way that I choose, rather than how a union or government that takes away my earned money decides to spend it.
-
Your city's general hospital is the closest example to government-run health coverage we have. Wander over there some time and let the rest of us know if you would rather be treated there, or at a private hospital/ER.
You assume that there are any private hospitals/ER's in any given city.
-
How about the freedom to earn wages based on my ability to perform rather that based on a union boss who makes more than my company CEO telling my company it has to pay me based on how long I've been on the job. Not the mention the freedom to spend my earned money in a way that I choose, rather than how a union or government that takes away my earned money decides to spend it.
Were you forced at gun point to join a union?
-
In some states people do have to join a union. and a particular union at that, there is no free choice in unions or we could start a rightwing workers union.
-
Freedom means Liberty And Justice.
(http://n3t.net/humor/motivation/LibertyandJustice.jpg)
-
they don't even know what liberty or freedom is???
figures
-
Freedom means Liberty And Justice.
(http://n3t.net/humor/motivation/LibertyandJustice.jpg)
So, then . . . then again, a pair of hot chicks kissing is a good thing. :naughty: :tongue:
-
So, then . . . then again, a pair of hot chicks kissing is a good thing. :naughty: :tongue:
It's why we killed all those Nazis and Japs!
USA! USA! USA!
:-)
-
It's why we killed all those Nazis and Japs!
USA! USA! USA!
:-)
I love freedom! :-) (H5 for the poster, BTW!)
-
Your city's general hospital is the closest example to government-run health coverage we have. Wander over there some time and let the rest of us know if you would rather be treated there, or at a private hospital/ER.
Most of our towns have only one hospital...if they have any at all.