The Conservative Cave
Current Events => Politics => Topic started by: megimoo on January 22, 2009, 07:28:37 PM
-
Modern liberalism shows remarkably little concern for freedom, democracy, and the will of the people if it's not politically expedient, but now some of the most influential members of the Democratic Party are starting to drift towards outright fascism with the suggestion that members of the Bush Administration should be jailed once they leave power.
For example, we have Paul Krugman caterwauling that Bush should be investigated for his policy on the environment, voting rights issues, political appointees, contracts in Iraq, and because ludicrously, Krugman claims Bush "deliberately misled the nation into invading Iraq."
Furthermore, John Conyers has spoken of going after the Bush Administration for "illegal wiretapping, torture, detention, and other practices (that) could land some members in an international tribunal."
Additionally, Vice-President Joe Biden and House Majority Leader Nancy Pelosi have both declared that they're also open to prosecuting members of the Bush Administration.
Let's be very clear what these Democrats want to do: because they hate George Bush and the Republican Party, they're proposing partisan witch hunts in search of a crime that they can use to jail members of the Bush Administration. In other words, this has nothing to do with anyone, including the President, being "above the law." We're not talking about perjury, bribery, corruption, a Nixonian break-in, or some other real crime.
To the contrary, what we're really discussing is the party in power abusing their office to try to jail their political opponents over policy differences. Put another way, it's the sort of thing we'd expect to see in Putin's Russia, Hugo Chavez's Venezuela, or Castro's Cuba -- not in the United States of America.
snip
Trying to prosecute key Bush Administration officials on what are viewed as trumped up, politically based charges would create a firestorm of partisanship and outright hatred that would surpass anything in American history since the Civil War. Members of a political party in the United States, whether it be Republican or Democrat, are simply not going to stand by idly with their hands in their pockets while their political views are criminalized.
At best, this would lead to tit-for-tat prosecutions. By that, I mean if Democrats throw George W. Bush in jail for ten years, Republicans will do their best to find an excuse to throw Barack Obama in jail for ten years -- and don't think it can't happen. The American political system tends to be cyclical and so today the Democrats may be on top -- but in four to eight years, when Obama leaves office, it's entirely possible the GOP could be in charge of both Houses of Congress -- and looking for an opportunity to get payback for Bush. Again, that is the best case scenario. The worst case scenario could mean blood in the streets, riots, and a breakdown of the "orderly transfer of power" that has always been a hallmark of American democracy.
One of the reasons that has never been an issue previously is precisely because the loss of power for an American politician doesn't mean that he's threatened with the loss of his life or liberty. If we throw the rule of law out the window and leaving office may mean a prison sentence or worse, those "orderly transfers of power" we have in this country are going to begin to break down -- and politicians will use any means necessary to remain in charge. It's understandable if that sounds farfetched since events of that sort haven't happened on a widespread scale here since the Civil War, but there are many nations across the world where a change of leadership is a terrifying and violent ordeal for the populace. There's very little to be said for potentially joining their ranks.
However, if Krugman, Conyers, Pelosi, Biden and Company get their way and we abandon a practice that has helped assure political stability for more than two centuries in this country, then we should not be surprised if America starts to experience the same troubles as the unstable banana republics that we've always urged to follow our example. That would be a truly disastrous turning point for our democracy and that's why it's highly irresponsible for Democratic officials to even publicly speculate about going down that dark and perilous road.
http://townhall.com/columnists/JohnHawkins/2009/01/20/endangering_american_democracy_to_go_after_bush
-
A great expose of just how childish the democratic party is...
-
Unfortunately for us, today's democratic leaders are stupid and arrogant enough to believe they will remain in power forever. They live in a delusional bubble. I fear something like this will happen. It's not country over party for them.
-
I see one of two things happening.
1) its all talk. Democrats will do nothing.
2) They will do this, and they will be destroyed as a result.
in either scenario, democrats will come across as cowards.
-
Talk about a slippery slope right there.
-
The DEM party hasn't given a shite about freedom, democracy, and the will of the people for decades.
-
I see one of two things happening.
1) its all talk. Democrats will do nothing.
2) They will do this, and they will be destroyed as a result.
in either scenario, democrats will come across as cowards.
I agree with the two paths, however I believe the MSM will simply not talk at all about the particular fanatics like Conyers if it goes through Door #1, and the most that will ever be said is that 'Certain elements' of the Demoncrat party were 'dissatisfied' at the "More restrained, moderate and statesmanlike approach of their distinguished leaders."
-
Islamofascists and other terrorists, everywhere, domestic and foreign, already must be tired of their daily ROTFLMAO parties. And they must be fatigued to have already given so many thanks to Allah or whatever other false god(s) they worship.
Why?
For seeing how the U.S. Congress and White House are now full of the majority called Democrats. And how these doofuses appear to be hell-bent on destablizing the U.S. and its security.
Giod help us all.
-
So Democrats hate freedom because they want to punish those who subvert our constitution and commit offense such as spying on their own citizens and torture.
We're not talking about perjury, bribery, corruption, a Nixonian break-in, or some other real crime.
Nope we are talking about offenses FAR more heinous!
-
So Democrats hate freedom because they want to punish those who subvert our constitution and commit offense such as spying on their own citizens and torture.
Nope we are talking about offenses FAR more heinous!
Normally, I'm polite with ladies but since you're a liberal and insist on being treated the same as men...
You're an idiot.
No one lied us into a war. The senate intelligence oversight committee was established to prevent just such an episode.
No one is being tortured. The techniques used to break the worst of the jihadists have been used on any US service member attending SERE IV training.
No one profitted from the war for the sake of oil. Why would anyone waste the time, money and political capital to fake an entire war when a simple executive order would unlock the oil reserves this nation is floating on top of?
There were no illegal wiretaps. Foreign citizens do not have a constituional right to use US phone line to faciliate the killing of Americans even if one of their conspirators is also an American.
No one is being held illegally. People who were civilian clothes, hide their weapons, do not answer to a central national authority and who deliberately target non-combatants are war criminals and as such the Geneva Convention says they have NO rights.
The fact of the matter is: the dems realized idiots like you like to protest the war so those idiots curry favor from you idiots and you idiots hate Bush for no other reason than he beat the even bigger idiot Algore in 2000 fair and square. It galls you to think someone not so eloquent who actually goes to church for sincere reasons (as opposed to hiding semen-stained dresses or cursing the US) beat out that fat slob enviro-fraud.
There were no crimes.
If you want to prosecute real war criminals you wuld be supporting the GWoT.
But I'll meet you halfway:
If a jihadist ever took you prisoner and was cutting out your eyes before sawing off your worthless head I would NOT waterboard him or wiretap his phones to affect your rescue. I think you should meet you end--even if slow, pain and gruesome--knowing full well your smug sense of self-satisfied moral superiority remains unblemished.
-
If your not going to at-least attempt some semblance of civility, then I have no reason to debate you.
Did we not prosecute the Japanese for using those same techniques on us? So it WAS torture when done to us, but not if we do it to others?
-
If your not going to at-least attempt some semblance of civility, then I have no reason to debate you.
Did we not prosecute the Japanese for using those same techniques on us? So it WAS torture when done to us, but not if we do it to others?
I'm sorry, when have we subjected those we have captured to starvation (virtually all Japanese POW camps), forced marches (Bataan), forced labor for war reasons (virtually all Japanese POW camps, and a violation of Geneva Conventions), poor medical care (rampant malaria at many Japanese POW camps), or held as hostages (Cabanatuan)? Japanese War Crimes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_war_crimes)
The truth is, most (if not all) of those we capture are captured on the field of battle while they are actively engaged in combat with American troops. They are not uniformed or responsive to a central headquarters. They are not the armed force of any recognized country. Therefore, they are not accorded the protections of the Geneva Conventions.
Those illegal combatants (as they would be classified in the Geneva Conventions) who are held at Guantanamo have, on average, gained 15 pounds from the nutritious food provided (that, btw, meets the dietary laws for their religion), have a clinic that is better than the one for the guards, have religious material provided for them, opportunities for recreation, etc. We have released more detainees from Guantanamo than we currently hold (and about 10% of those have been killed on the battlefield in combat with US troops)
These are the facts: even though those we capture have no protections under the Geneva Conventions, we treat them as if they do. They would not hesitate to torture or kill any American they capture, and we do not retaliate against those we hold captive.
I welcome your attempts to debate these facts.
-
If your not going to at-least attempt some semblance of civility, then I have no reason to debate you.
Did we not prosecute the Japanese for using those same techniques on us? So it WAS torture when done to us, but not if we do it to others?
Ringo, when your banned that means your not welcome here. We don't take kindly to you threatening members.
And I know your not going to start this waterboarding/water cure crap up again after I womped your ass about it over at CU.
-
If your not going to at-least attempt some semblance of civility, then I have no reason to debate you.
Did we not prosecute the Japanese for using those same techniques on us? So it WAS torture when done to us, but not if we do it to others?
Civility?
It ain't civil to make amorphious, deliberately ambiguous allegations is hardly civil. In other words: you first. Otherwise, take your lame excuse for not have a valid resposne back to whatever liberal cess pool you oozed from. If I talk roughly its because my life is rough; I've broken 8 bones in the last year alone and still get up every morning at 0130 to work like an animal in sub-zero weather and when I do my army time I can still outrun punks half my age.
Civility? I got civility drunk, poked it in the *** and told it to walk home on its 18th birthday.
At least you're allowed to stay which is more than we'd get out of DU. Typical lib: give me what I want how I want it or I'm not going to finish what I started. It's a cheap cop-out for, "damn, I didn't expect an answer to my professor's latest talking point." If you can't play here just admit it and get out of our sandbox.
But to address your lame false analogy:
To try and place the US on the same level as Japan c. 1939 is a slander to both the US and the victims of Japanese imperialism. Iraq is not Nanking. Abu Ghraib is not the Bataan Death March. Gitmo is not a Philipine internment camps.
-
We absolutely did sentence Japan for water-boarding and swearing at me doesn't change the fact. What is DU? I only post on one other forum and that's not it but if this is how you talk to people I'm sure you would be banned.
-
We absolutely did sentence Japan for water-boarding and swearing at me doesn't change the fact. What is DU? I only post on one other forum and that's not it but if this is how you talk to people I'm sure you would be banned.
Hmmm, somewhere I missed where someone "swore at you". It's early, so I may have overlooked it.
-
We absolutely did sentence Japan for water-boarding and swearing at me doesn't change the fact. What is DU? I only post on one other forum and that's not it but if this is how you talk to people I'm sure you would be banned.
Is that ALL we prosecuted the japs for?
As I noted, virtually every attendee of the SERE IV course gets waterboarded...and worse.
If it's OK to do to train US service personnel why is it so bad to do to unawful combatants trying to mass murder civilians?
And you act as if it is common place. It's rare and used only with great exception. To date only a dozen or so have been waterboarded. Tell us nancy? On 9/12/2001 what was more important: not waterboarding or no more WTC-type attacks?
BTW - You libtards made great noise in 2004 about Chimpler McBushburton not having served in combat thus not being allowed to be CinC (odd how that fell off this past election cycle) but you want to discuss war in soft cozy terms. We're talking about a process wherein people are mutilated to death. There is no nice way to talk about it and its horror should never be dulled.
Grow a set you ****ing whining *****. Gawd, I'd love to get you into basic training (the real stuff, not this marshamallow shit they have going on today).
-
Hmmm, somewhere I missed where someone "swore at you". It's early, so I may have overlooked it.
It's lib-speak for, "I got nothing. I need a way out. LOOK A BABY GIRAFFE!"
-
We absolutely did sentence Japan for water-boarding and swearing at me doesn't change the fact. What is DU? I only post on one other forum and that's not it but if this is how you talk to people I'm sure you would be banned.
We prosecuted the Japs for beheading american POW's with swords, using live POW's for bayonet practice, germ and chemical warfare experiments, and medical experiments that entailed gutting them while alive and very much awake. ...and we didn't prosecute and hang all of them that did that. The Jap car you're probably driving was for 40 years headed by a WW2 war criminal of the worst sort.
Why don't you liberals read some history sometimes?
-
Why don't you liberals read some history sometimes?
Because making it up as you go along is much quicker and politically expedient.
-
Just a reminder, in case you liberals forgot:
Japanese POW camps
Tojo's orders regarding POWs was very clear. Guards "must supervise their charges rigidly, taking care not to become obsessed with mistaken ideas of humanitarianism or swayed by personal feelings toward prisoners that might grow over a long incarceration." (50) Rarely did top government officials visit any Japanese prison camps. Therefore, the local commanders could do as they wished without reprimand. However, considering the indoctrination of Japanese troops, reprimand was highly unlikely. If the commander wished, he could make anything, even whistling, a crime and inflict any type of punishment, including execution. (51)
The Geneva Convention stated that if a prisoner escaped and was recaptured, he was not to be punished. However, the Japanese did not care. The POWs were forced to sign non-escape oaths soon after they reached the POW camps. They signed at the advice of their officers with the secret understanding that the oaths were not morally binding. Escapes were rare. Any re-captured escapees were executed. Not only were they killed in front of the other POWs, but ten additional POWs were executed as well. While some officers knew the Geneva Convention said it was their duty to escape, many did not know this and the rest did not want to have the POWs left behind to suffer for their actions should they get caught. Therefore, few escapes were attempted. Fewer still succeeded. (52) Successful escapees, such as Dyess, were the rare exception and not the rule.
The Japanese tried to get some POWs to turn on their comrades or tell military secrets. POWs selected would be questioned for hours. Others would receive good treatment for a day, in the hopes that they would be more willing to talk. Most did not cooperate with their captors. (53)
There were over 140,000 white POWs in Japanese prison camps. They received the harshest treatment of all.
One in three died in captivity at the hands of the Japanese, starved to death, worked to death, beaten to death, dead of loathsome epidemic diseases that the Japanese would not treat. From the beginning, what the Japanese did to their prisoners, body and soul, was humanly appalling. Even so, the prisoners stayed and took it. For them the stakes were: try to escape, with the chances of suffering and dying almost a hundred percent, or stay with what turned out to be a two-to-one chance of surviving. The final gross score was: died trying to escape, next to none; died as prisoners, tens of thousands. (54)
(http://history.sandiego.edu/gen/USPics/bataan/daws11.jpg)
(http://history.sandiego.edu/gen/USPics/bataan/daws9.jpg)
The atrocities committed by the Japanese were not ignored. Justice had to be served, though nothing could ever be true justice for the victims, survivors, and their families. There were three classifications for war criminals. A Class was the top officials. The International Military Tribunal of the Far East, (IMTFE), tried them. B and C Class criminals were tried by the Allied nations in the areas where the crimes occurred.
The top Japanese war criminal was Tojo Hideki, Japan's war minister and Prime Minister. It was under his orders and with his blessing that the atrocities were committed against the POWs. He made an unsuccessful suicide attempt after Japan surrendered. On December 8, 1945, he was sent to Sugamo Prison in Tokyo as an A Class war criminal. He was executed on December 23, 1948.
Yamashita Tomoyuki also received a death sentence. He was the Japanese Army commander who faced MacArthur as the war ended. His death is significant because, "he was the first ever high level officer of a defeated army to be tried by the victors for command responsibility, specifically for atrocities committed by his troops in the Philippines." (57)
Homma Masaharu, the Japanese general before Bataan fell, was charged with "bombing Manila after it was declared an open city, refusing quarter to the American troops on Corregidor, and - specifically concerning POWs - allowing the massive atrocities of the death march out of Bataan, and the disgusting atrocities at O'Donnell and Cabanatuan that followed." (58) In April 1946 he was executed by a firing squad and not allowed to wear his military uniform.
While hundreds were accused of war crimes, a little over two dozen were tried and sentenced. Over 300,000 Japanese were charged as B and C Class criminals, but all were not tried due to their vast numbers. Over 5,700 were brought to trial. Trials lasted anywhere from days to months. Sentences ranged from prison terms to executions. Only seven A Class criminals were put to death, four due to their treatment of POWs.
"Twenty-five A Class criminals were convicted and sentenced, seven of them to death, sixteen to life. Five thousand seven hundred-plus B and C Class criminals were brought to trials, about 3,000 were convicted and sentenced, 920 were executed." (59)
This is roughly equal to one Japanese sentence for every fifty POWs held for three-and-one-half years (over 150,000) and one executed for every 250-plus who died due to atrocities (almost 232,000). The Japanese did not believe their sentences were just, saying it was only Allied revenge. (60)
Japan's emperor, Hirohito, remained in power.
http://history.sandiego.edu/GEN/st/~ehimchak/POW_camps.html
Now, in light of all this, I hope you find it as incredulous as I to blithely say "We prosecuted the Japanese for waterboarding," and to compare our operation at Gitmo with WWII prison camps. I mean, honestly! Even the most cursory examination of documented history should blow that idiotic claim out of the water.
-
Miss BeHave.....why don't you do a yahoo search for The Bataan Death March, Unit 731, Unit 501, Unit 100, Japanese Death Ships, Rape of Nanking.......etc.
When you're finished reading you might ....just might....have an idea of what real torture is.
Waterboarding....hahahahahahaha....the Japanese should have been so civilized.
-
So Democrats hate freedom because they want to punish those who subvert our constitution and commit offense such as spying on their own citizens and torture.
They don't want to punish them. That's the problem.
The Democrat Party elects them to public office.
-
They don't want to punish them. That's the problem.
The Democrat Party elects them to public office.
Why shouldn't we want to subvert the Constitution? It's a fundamentally flawed document. [/Obama] :banghead: :puke:
-
Why shouldn't we want to subvert the Constitution? It's a fundamentally flawed document. [/Obama] :banghead: :puke:
Whoopie Goldberg told McCain if he appointed originalist judges she'd be a slave again.
-
If your not going to at-least attempt some semblance of civility, then I have no reason to debate you.
Did we not prosecute the Japanese for using those same techniques on us? So it WAS torture when done to us, but not if we do it to others?
Here are three questions for you,
When and where did you serve this country?
Where did you see torture being done by US Citizens to US Citizens?
Show me in the international law of war where it defines soldiers from illegal combatants
-
I see one of two things happening.
1) its all talk. Democrats will do nothing.
2) They will do this, and they will be destroyed as a result.
in either scenario, democrats will come across as cowards.
but going after bill clinton for blowing loads on miss piggy was the right thing to do & of course, not FASCIST ... ??
ken starr even regrets he bought into the whole chirade too & wishes he never tried clinton ....
the GOP makes it own bed... & they no longer have moral clarity or the brains to lead this country...
hopefully when both neo cons & libs all get together in DC, they can gracefully catch an asteroid come the first state of the union address & then our biggest problems will be solved & give us wonderful fireworks ta boot !!....
-
but going after bill clinton for blowing loads on miss piggy was the right thing to do & of course, not FASCIST ... ??
ken starr even regrets he bought into the whole chirade too & wishes he never tried clinton ....
the GOP makes it own bed... & they no longer have moral clarity or the brains to lead this country...
hopefully when both neo cons & libs all get together in DC, they can gracefully catch an asteroid come the first state of the union address & then our biggest problems will be solved & give us wonderful fireworks ta boot !!....
Perjury to save one's own skin vs waterbaording people determined to kill Americans by the thousands.
You can't tell the difference, and that's telling.
-
Did we not prosecute the Japanese for using those same techniques on us?
Big difference. It was the uniformed forces of the Japanese Empire that did it to us.
Not a bunch of civilian clothes wearing terrorist scum.
And I dare you to show me where we have in any way done the things to anyone we've captured even remotely close to what the Japanese did to enemy POW's in WWII...or what the NVA did to POW's in Vietnam.
ANd I can guaren-damn-tee you that we don't do anything close to what the al-Qaeda scum does to the U.S. soldiers they capture.
So it WAS torture when done to us, but not if we do it to others
Not in this war.
-
So Democrats hate freedom because they want to punish those who subvert our constitution and commit offense such as spying on their own citizens and torture.
Nope we are talking about offenses FAR more heinous!
That really doesn't play, because a president who committs a crime is still a president who commits a crime. Unless you're prepared to try and convince us that when Clinton committed perjury you were equally determined to see him punished for his crime, then you're not being balanced in your viewpoint.
There's a reason the Dems didn't go after Bush in the last 2 years when they held Congress and could easily have done so, and that's because they know they don't have any evidence. If they had the evidence, they would have tried. Of that there is no doubt.
.
-
Unfortunately for us, today's democratic leaders are stupid and arrogant enough to believe they will remain in power forever. They live in a delusional bubble. I fear something like this will happen. It's not country over party for them.
Let 'em have at it...
And when it fails they will get it back in spades.... :evillaugh:
-
So Democrats hate freedom because they want to punish those who subvert our constitution and commit offense such as spying on their own citizens and torture.
Nope we are talking about offenses FAR more heinous!
"subvert our constitution"
Who subverted the Constitution and how?
"spying on their own citizens"
Besides an aggressive interpretation of FISA, what are you talking about?
"torture"
Waterboarding isn't torture
-
Waterboarding isn't torture
As opposed to attempting to hold a reasonable debate with a liberal..........now THAT'S torture.......
doc
-
As opposed to attempting to hold a reasonable debate with a liberal..........now THAT'S torture.......
doc
(http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y5/freedumb2003/FD2003_BE_Award.gif)
-
We prosecuted the Japs for beheading american POW's with swords, using live POW's for bayonet practice, germ and chemical warfare experiments, and medical experiments that entailed gutting them while alive and very much awake. ...and we didn't prosecute and hang all of them that did that. The Jap car you're probably driving was for 40 years headed by a WW2 war criminal of the worst sort.
I do believe we are oft topic here, the question is not who did worse but do we want to be a county that resorts to the same barbaric measures we have ourselves denounced. Sorry but being a really patriot absolutely requires dissent when your country does wrong. I for one will continue to hold American up to her promises. If we want to keep to randomly exclaiming "The Us is the best country on Earth" then we need to live up to those valves that make our freedom so prized. "Those who would sacrifice liberty for security deserve neither" By the way, drive a ford.
Why don't you liberals read some history sometimes?
Why don't you conservatives watch something beside Fuax news.
Literacy is a Liberal value, as if we were the anti-intellectuals.
-
Literacy is a Liberal value
40 years worth of liberal control of the failed public school system sort of proves your point don't it?
:loser:
-
I do believe we are oft topic here, the question is not who did worse but do we want to be a county that resorts to the same barbaric measures we have ourselves denounced. Sorry but being a really patriot absolutely requires dissent when your country does wrong. I for one will continue to hold American up to her promises. If we want to keep to randomly exclaiming "The Us is the best country on Earth" then we need to live up to those valves that make our freedom so prized. "Those who would sacrifice liberty for security deserve neither" By the way, drive a ford.
Being Patriotic means what again? By your diffinition, I am being very patriotic since barry was sworn in...the first time.
So, since the American Revolution was illegal, based on the laws of the time, you would have sided with the British Crown, rather than with Geo Washington?
You would have sided with the south during the ACW because there was no law against a state breaking away?
Ford sucks. Overpriced, underpowered, and burns too much fuel. Most of those problems rely on Union controls, forcing higher prices.
Health care is too costly. Why? Lawyers keep making millions sueing hospitals and doctors.
Crime is on the rise. Why? More single parent families. Look at the stats, Majority of criminals are from broken homes.
Housing collapsed because people could pay their morgages. Why? Our congress pressured lenders to give out risky loans.
Yeah, I am all patriotic.
And you never did answer any of my questions.
-
I do believe we are oft topic here, the question is not who did worse but do we want to be a county that resorts to the same barbaric measures we have ourselves denounced. Sorry but being a really patriot absolutely requires dissent when your country does wrong. I for one will continue to hold American up to her promises. If we want to keep to randomly exclaiming "The Us is the best country on Earth" then we need to live up to those valves that make our freedom so prized. "Those who would sacrifice liberty for security deserve neither" By the way, drive a ford.
Why don't you conservatives watch something beside Fuax news.
Literacy is a Liberal value, as if we were the anti-intellectuals.
Even at our worst.....America is still the best.
I have driven lots of Fords an other American made cars, trucks and heavy equipment.
I don't have cable so I don't watch Faux News....haha ...I got this way by doing my own thinking. I haven't been one of the crowd...and I never have listened to Rush but starting Monday, he has a new listner.
I have found that liberals, especially liberal college professors, are the DUmbest people in the world. They can't fix a flat tire but they think they can "fix" the worlds problems. Problem solving is a Conservative strait.
-
I do believe we are oft topic here, the question is not who did worse but do we want to be a county that resorts to the same barbaric measures we have ourselves denounced. Sorry but being a really patriot absolutely requires dissent when your country does wrong. I for one will continue to hold American up to her promises. If we want to keep to randomly exclaiming "The Us is the best country on Earth" then we need to live up to those valves that make our freedom so prized. "Those who would sacrifice liberty for security deserve neither" By the way, drive a ford.
Why don't you conservatives watch something beside Fuax news.
Literacy is a Liberal value, as if we were the anti-intellectuals.
Apparently you aren't even moderately well-read.
You see, before this present constitution was adopted--the one which you claim has been subverted by George the Younger--the nation was founded under what is known as the Articles of Confederation (not to be confused with the confederacy of the American Civil War). It proved, in its relatively short lifespan, to be a disaster in the making for a number of reasons but primarily for matters of collective national security. To remediate these problems the constitution as we have it today was proposed but there was resistence to its adoption. Then govenor of New York, George Clinton (who, if Ben Franklin is to be believed, is quite generous with his military stocks if properly plied with wine) writing under the pen-name of the ancient statesman Cato, wrote a series of editorials condemning the abandonment of the AoC. In no small part his protests rested on the fear of a government too powerful to restrain should it ever fall to evil men. Certainly a sympathetic notion and one that weighs on the heart of genuine conservatives.
However, Gov. Clinton's protests were not left unchallenged. John Jay, James Madison and Alexander Hamilton responded with a series of rebuttals since collected and referred to as The Federalist Papers. We can bicker all day about what we think they meant but the FP hold great insight into the motivations of the constitution you claim has been subverted (more on that in a minute). Mr Hamilton wrote one particularly prescient missive, Federalist No. 23 (http://www.constitution.org/fed/federa23.htm). I should like to quote some of it if I may:
The authorities essential to the common defense are these: to raise armies; to build and equip fleets; to prescribe rules for the government of both; to direct their operations; to provide for their support. These powers ought to exist without limitation, because it is impossible to foresee or define the extent and variety of national exigencies, or the correspondent extent and variety of the means which may be necessary to satisfy them. The circumstances that endanger the safety of nations are infinite, and for this reason no constitutional shackles can wisely be imposed on the power to which the care of it is committed. This power ought to be coextensive with all the possible combinations of such circumstances; and ought to be under the direction of the same councils which are appointed to preside over the common defense.
"No constitutional shackles can be wisely imposed?" The devil you say!
"But what is to stop a president, without constitutional shackles, from oppressing the people he is charged to protect?" you say. "Weren't these the very same people who had, by the skin of their teeth, defeated a tyrannical king only a couple of decades earlier? Were these the same people who raised up this great nation from the fear of despots and their excesses?"
Yes.
But this all depends, quite reasonably, upon the subject of his attentions. A president can wiretap and waterboard as he deems fitting so long as the subject of his efforts are those intent upon stealing into the US for the sole express purpose of bringing violence to America's economy, political insitutions and civil populace.
Now, if a president were to do such a thing to a law-abiding, non-violent member of a political opposition party it would be another affair altogether. The constitution makes quite clear that we possess the right to petition the government for the redress of grievances. It is the ability to know the difference that makes all the difference between a good president, faithfully discharging his duties as Commander in Chief as well as a good citizen who is vigilant against the excesses of power. But no one is served by allowing degenerate sub-human filth operate freely, or worse, protected by US law. They act to subvert the constituion through violence. It is a contradiction of logic to say the constitution is subverted by protecting it so long as the target is an enemy of the US.
"But congress has made laws saying we shall not torture," you say.
Would that all laws passed over all time by congress were wise and infallible but here we find the crux of the debate. First, what is torture? Can techniques used almost daily on our own military personnel truly be considered torture? If it is allowed to be defined subjectively we mmight as well close down any prison and house all killers and thugs in 5-star hotel accomodations.
But more to the point the Supreme Court has delineated 3 tiers of presidential power. When the president acts:
* in opposition to congress' stated wishes
* on matters wherein congress has remained silent and
* in concert with congress
Naturally, a president acting in opposition to congress faces impeachment. However, consider a president sitting meekly behind his desk as his intelligence services feed him reports day-after-day telling him foreign operatives are inside the US and planning an attack but their identies and location are not known, only that their instructions are being conveyed be a series of code-phrases but the phones being used are discarded after each use. This president cannot use the most expedient method--a blanket sweep of electronic signals that filter select words and phrases--because congress has forbidden such sweeps wherein there is the possibility of an American citizen or an exchange junction residing in US territory being involved in the tap.
I would think once the operatives were stopped if the story came to light it would quickly come down to a matter of: yes, the president violated the written law, but the threat was genuine and his options were few. The American people--the best guarantors of their own liberty--survey the facts and shrug as they continue on in their daily lives...unmolested. Such scenarios have played out, but moreover the president did not operate in absolute secrecy. He briefed select members of the senate including many within the democrat party and they chose to remain silent lest the worst of our fears be made manifest.
Yet, I cannot help but think if it came to light the president had tapped the phones of the leader of the opposing political party, or perhaps hid his knowledge that his own operatives had burgled a campaign headquarters, the indignation from the streets would force such a president to resign.
But what is truly disturbing is how the safety of the American people has become the subject of cheap politcal revenge. If it is subversion of constittuional rights ask youself: Which party would specifically target media outlets of its political opponents? Which party would allow its citizens to killed without due process for no reason other than that person has not been born? Which party exceeds the specifically enumerated powers of congress to consume the wealth of certain classes of citizens and give it to those most likely to vote in its favor? Which party operates in direct opposition of the expressed rights of religion and gun ownership? Which party would create laws to protect unlawful combatants from a duly-elected president genuinely and without malice seeking to protect the US?
There is your subversion.
-
I do believe we are oft topic here, the question is not who did worse but do we want to be a county that resorts to the same barbaric measures we have ourselves denounced.
Really? Are we using civilians as human shields? Strapping bombs to children with downs syndrome and shoving them towards a line of people voting?
Show me where we've hung dead bodies from a bridge and set them aflame.
And as for the U.S. soldiers that have been captured by al-Qaeda well we don't know how they are actually tortured...BECAUSE THEY ARE F*CKING KILLED ALMOST AS SOON AS THEY ARE CAPTURED!!!!
So to sit there and tell me that making them uncomfortable is akin to "barbaric" measures shows how little you really understand about what is going on in the world and how much you just lip synch what you're told to by the Libtards on the left.
Sorry but being a really patriot absolutely requires dissent when your country does wrong
That is such a load of sh*t. That's just a lame @ssed excuse created by terrorist loving troop bashing @sshats like yourself to give you comfort at night for cheerleading for an enemy of your country.
GFYS.
I for one will continue to hold American up to her promises.
Socialism...gay rights...universal healthcare...abortion on demand were NOT what the Founding Fathers "promised" us.
If we want to keep to randomly exclaiming "The Us is the best country on Earth" then we need to live up to those valves that make our freedom so prized.
We do. Every. Single. Day. You're just a brainwashed Libtard who has been programmed into believing that the U.S. can NOT do anything right.
"Those who would sacrifice liberty for security deserve neither"
Which is exactly what you are doing. You and the other Libtards want to trade your Liberty and protecting it from those who want to harm it for the "security" of believing that we can't do anything that might offend someone else somewhere in the world.
The kind of "security" you want is guarenteed to sacrifice your God given liberties.
And yet you seem to relish that thought.
Why don't you conservatives watch something beside Fuax news.
What is Faux News? Never heard of that.
I watch Fox News...CNBC...and locally WUSA. I also listen to AP Radio news.
I also read the Dallas Morning News...The Washington Times...sometimes the Post...National Review...Army Times...Stars and Stripes and The Midland Reporter-Telegram.
You were saying?
Literacy is a Liberal value, as if we were the anti-intellectuals.
You don't have the corner on Literacy DUmbass. The only thing that is a Liberal "value" is arrogance...which you ahve in spades.
The problem with the "intellectuals" you Libtards choose to read...is that they have the last names of Alinsky, Marx...and Castro.
-
Miss Begotten asked: "So Democrats hate freedom because they want to punish those who subvert our constitution and commit offense such as spying on their own citizens and torture."
No.
Democrats appear to hate freedom, given their attempts to quench, if not completely do away with, freedom of speech and freedom to bear arms, to name two. Oops, forgot freedom of religion, given their assault on Christianity, in the name of tolerance and poltical correctness.
Other indicators they hate freedom?
Attempts to undermine the former president, starting Election Day night in 200l, and throughout his administration, especially when it came to fighting the war agaisnt terrorism, or even having the courage to call terrorists, terrorists.
Their seditious remarks made overseas by the likes of Madelyn Albright, Jimmy Carter and Algore about our former president and government.
Their games they've played with the military, including funding.
The haste with which Obama has made thost truly stupid decisions about Gitmo and techniques, though used in extreme, to gain intelligence that's keep you, your friends and me and mine and the rest of the country safe since 9/11.
But you know, maybe it's just that Democrats, liberals and leftists lack the collective testicularity to stand for freedom. But the default of that equals hatred of freedom.
The Democrats also appear to want to treat the Constitution as a document that should be amended to their whims. In my book, that's tantamount to subverting the Constitution.
And it borders on misfeasance for the Democrats to use taxpayer money and resources to fulfill their vindictiveness, their hateful lust, their small-minded petty vendettas against someone who is no longer president.
Those vendettas certainly indicate that the Democrats do not understand priorities that the majority of Americans have.
That the Democrats do such idiocies indicates, yet once again, they truly do not understand governance or are worhty of being intrusted with it. They're, for the most part, a gaggle of self-absorbed children who've learned only one game: "Gotcha!" And they whine even about playing that game, if they don't get their way.
Even as limpid as the Republicans can be and have been, they are not nearly the embarrassment the Democrats have been. At least the Republicans occassionally act like adults who understand responsibility and governance, and who have a positive vision about America and its future.
And, BTW, if you're concerned about crimes against our society and humanity, you might consider the eco-religion that Algore has started and foisted on America: catastrophic anthropogenic global warming.
No, I do not care that it's colder this winter. That could be a hiccup on some long-term trendline.
But what he and his fellow eco-catastrophic religionists believe -- and their intolerance of anyone who disagrees with them, a true liberal-leftist character trait -- could do serious ecohomic and environemtal damage to America and the world.
But, oh, will your ilk and fellow cultists feel good about yourselves.
You also might consider the crimes of subjugation that come through more and more and more entitlement programs, none which empower people but enslave them to the government.
Yet another crime: Yes, the killing of the unborn and just-born. You see, I still believe that everyone is entitled to life. But the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution never said to make a battleground, a killing field out of mothers' wombs, did it?
-
I do believe we are oft topic here, the question is not who did worse but do we want to be a county that resorts to the same barbaric measures we have ourselves denounced. Sorry but being a really patriot absolutely requires dissent when your country does wrong. I for one will continue to hold American up to her promises. If we want to keep to randomly exclaiming "The Us is the best country on Earth" then we need to live up to those valves that make our freedom so prized. "Those who would sacrifice liberty for security deserve neither" By the way, drive a ford.
Yes, lets cuddle and kiss them and all sing Kumbaya with them? No liberty has been lost by any US Citizen. But you libtards are extending US Citizenship rights to enemy war combatants, an act UNPRECEDENTED in the annals of modern history.
Why don't you conservatives watch something beside Fuax news.
Literacy is a Liberal value, as if we were the anti-intellectuals.
You people are so stupid and vapid it isn't even funny. Calling yourself literate doesn't make it so. Reading "Mommy is a liberal because..." doesn't make you well-read. And at least we have ONE broadcaster who TRIES to tell the truth. The entire of the rest of the MSM has been carrying the new fuhrer's water since he got his whole campaign started -- and THAT I can prove.
You still don't know what torture is, haven't listed a single lost liberty and have merely been repeating your talking points. And you haven't refuted a SINGLE historical fact hta has been presented to you here, despite your illusion of "literacy."
Anti-intellectuals? You can't even get THAT high on the chart. Try emotional useful idiots.
-
Miss Begotten asked, then declared: "Why don't you conservatives watch something beside Fuax news.
Literacy is a Liberal value, as if we were the anti-intellectuals."
Honey, you gotta know what real news is to know what is false. And to date, it would appear that discernment is not a strong suit, if one at all, Democrats, liberals and leftists have or will have in the future.
And, you know, some of us actually do read things, even liberal-leftist rags such as WaPo, NYT, Chicago Tribune, others, just to get their take.
We even read books and magazines. Imagine that, even though it gets tougher with magazines such as Time and Newsweek that are now opinion pieces, advocacy journalism at its worst.
And, when we can stomach the bias, even the Obama Network -- that's MSDNC or MSNBC to you -- or CNN or, and this does take real fortitude, even ABC, CBS or NBC.
As for "Faux news"? Oh, that's clever. Deep, too.
About literacy being a value: You bet. America needs to be more literate. Perhaps some day, when conservatives regain power and actually understand what literacy means, we may move toward having greater real literacy in America.
Not what passes for public education now. And not how the liberals and leftists, through teachers' unions and public-employees' unions have managed to screw up things.
As for your ilk being anti-intellectual?
No, I don't think that fully or accurately captures it.
Your ilk consists of arrogant intellectual racists. You believe that pieces of parchment from certain so-called institutions of higher learning have more value than others. And you dismiss anyone lacking those.
Those parchments do have certain value, in the sense of the country-club mentality that many so-called intellectuals and lots of pseudo-intellectuals have: If you don't have the right union card, then you're worthless.
But, of course, they do often represent very bright, highly intelligent students who might find no challenge or stimulation elsewhere. Who could or would argue with that?
But your tribe devalues the innate intelligence and common sense that people have. You mock and dismiss that which you do not know. You must, because if you find that people can be as, if not more, intelligent, without that selective-college/university piece of parchment, your racist paradigm fails.
Yes, some should never go to college, including those ivory-covered academies you revere. But your disdain for ordinary people is repugnant. It's a product of small, insecure minds and egos who fear others.
So, anti-intellectual?
Yes, in that you do not represent, foster or advance the openness of real curiosity and discovery. And true diversity of thought and freedom of speech.
No, in that you likley do support education, even higher, though in the liberal-leftist institutions that no longer tolerate diverse political or religious views, especially, respectively, conservative and Christian.
-
I do think that Miss Begotten has been torn a new asshole.
:lmao: :rotf:
I gotta hand it to you guys. You were relentless!
:cheersmate:
-
Not that he/she/it/shit will ever read any of these posts, given that facts are anathema to liberals.
-
I do believe we are oft topic here, the question is not who did worse but do we want to be a county that resorts to the same barbaric measures we have ourselves denounced. Sorry but being a really patriot absolutely requires dissent when your country does wrong. I for one will continue to hold American up to her promises. If we want to keep to randomly exclaiming "The Us is the best country on Earth" then we need to live up to those valves that make our freedom so prized. "Those who would sacrifice liberty for security deserve neither" By the way, drive a ford.
I take it you're the type of liberal that thinks a foot massage and an umbrella drink for Abdul would make him talk? No. And because of you libs.... America is going to be subject to another attack. Period. The terrorists know only one thing... and that's brute force. Not having a "hugfest on Oprah"
Why don't you conservatives watch something beside Fuax news.
Literacy is a Liberal value, as if we were the anti-intellectuals.
You wanna look at what you typed and try to explain to me why I shouldn't be laughing my ass off right now?
-
I do think that Miss Begotten has been torn a new *******.
:lmao: :rotf:
I gotta hand it to you guys. You were relentless!
:cheersmate:
That's what happens when you come here with anything less than your A game.
There hasn't been a Libtard yet that has.
-
Where the hell did she go????????
I guess when you get your ass handed to you by 10 people with arguments you can't come close to answering, you turn tail and run!
Is she French?????
-
Where the hell did she go????????
I guess when you get your ass handed to you by 10 people with arguments you can't come close to answering, you turn tail and run!
Is she French?????
Apparently she has no trouble calling people fascist war criminals with all seriousness but if you change her username from Miss BeHave to Miss Begotten its too uncivil for her tastes.
She's entitled to better treatment, don't you know.