The Conservative Cave
Current Events => The DUmpster => Topic started by: Carl on December 28, 2008, 11:47:18 AM
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usregimechange (1000+ posts) Sun Dec-28-08 11:52 AM
Original message
Posting so I do not lose again, Dean Stanley Fish on how terrorists are not evil
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"We have not seen the face of evil: we have seen the face of an enemy who comes at us with a full roster of grievances, goals and strategies. If we reduce the enemy to evil, we conjure up a shape-shifting demon, a wild-card moral anarchist beyond our comprehension and therefore beyond the reach of counterstrategies." ~Dean Stanley Fish
If the public wants to be strong on terrorism, it better support policies that are smart on terrorism.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x4726808
I have no doubt this is a criticism of Israel but it isn`t blatant at least from the post.
No worries though.
cbc5g (1000+ posts) Sun Dec-28-08 11:59 AM
Response to Original message
2. Evil is a religious code word, it's not real
There are mentally ****ed up people, but there is no such thing as evil.
Yes there are those people...you are one of them. :mental:
L0oniX (1000+ posts) Sun Dec-28-08 12:16 PM
Response to Original message
7. I'll keep saying this ...pull out all of our military bases...
and you will see a huge drop in terrorist activity toward our country. It won't eliminate it though as long as we interfere with other countries. Stop supporting Israel and that will go a long way toward peace with the Arab countries. Stop attacking Hugo Chaves and Castro. Stop the Iran bull shit. Stop encroaching on Russia. Simply ...quit ****ing around with other countries.
And yet another of the same. :mental:
New bonfire but think it might get interesting.
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ananda (1000+ posts) Sun Dec-28-08 12:00 PM
Response to Original message
3. The question to be answered first is..
.. why is it so easy in this country to
demonize others and succeed in scapegoating
them and projecting our own flaws, faults,
and evils onto them??????????
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Teaser (1000+ posts) Sun Dec-28-08 12:08 PM
Response to Reply #3
5. It is easy *everywhere*
the human mind has a default "demonize" setting, because for a long time it was the socially advantageous thing to do.
When there was no social cost associated with exterminating one's adversaries, demonizing them was an effective way of riling people enough up against them to *get shit done*.
Nowaday's it's maladaptive. We need good workarounds.
Yet these DUmmies claim that GWB is evil, but if evil doesn't exist , then they must be lying. Oh, wait. DUmmies lie, DUmmies lie all the time.
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And when they consistently spew this garbage about eliminating our military, decreasing our presence in other countries and saying that we need to stop picking fights with other countries, and if we did as they think we should - it will be the innocents in this country who are killed or maimed by terrorists.
Somehow, the dummies and their families always seem to be the ones who are spared.
:thatsright: :thatsright:
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Attn DUmmies: Il Duce will willingly bend over for terrorists and remove all our overseas bases. You'll see. He listens to you and thinks you're brilliant.
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Attn DUmmies: Il Duce will willingly bend over for terrorists and remove all our overseas bases. You'll see. He listens to you and thinks you're brilliant.
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Dummies, can't live with'em, can't live witho.......on second thought, I'd like to try.
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Dummies, can't live with'em, can't live witho.......on second thought, I'd like to try.
Me too.
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Me too.
I could live with them . . . as long as they were in cages that one could visit, similar to a zoo.
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I could live with them . . . as long as they were in cages that one could visit, similar to a zoo.
And if there were lots of long sharp sticks to poke them with. But then it would be hard to keep them from flinging poo. :-)
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IMHO DUmmies can't have an honest discussion about "evil" because A) the fact that most of them don't beleive in organised religion or being a Christian to begin with doesn't give them a realistic or moralistic base from which to discuss the topic and B) The brand of Liberalism they subscribe to has no moral absolutes...no black or white...just millions of shades of gray...hence no real sense of what is right and what is wrong...therefore no real definition of "evil" as the rest of us know it.
We see evil as this:
(http://www.youdecide2008.com/wp-content/uploads/World_Trade_Center_9_11_2001__gallery_msg_11579208933.jpg)
Dummies see THIS as evil:
(http://www.woodzone.com/Merchant2/graphics/00000001/silent-night-nativity-scene.jpg)
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I could live with them . . . as long as they were in cages that one could visit, similar to a zoo.
Heh, I've sometimes thought of DU as a zoo.
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GOD Vs Science !
A science professor begins his school year with a lecture to the students, "Let me explain the problem science has with religion." The atheist professor of philosophy pauses before his class and then asks one of his new students to stand.
"You're a Christian, aren't you, son?"
"Yes sir," the student says.
"So you believe in God?"
"Absolutely."
"Is God good?"
"Sure! God's good."
"Is God all-powerful? Can God do anything?"
"Yes."
"Are you good or evil?"
"The Bible says I'm evil."
The professor grins knowingly. "Aha! The Bible!" He considers for a moment. "Here's one for you. Let's say there's a sick person over here and you can cure him. You can do it. Would you help him? Would you try?"
"Yes sir, I would."
"So you're good...!"
"I wouldn't say that."
"But why not say that? You'd help a sick and maimed person if you could. Most of us would if we could. But God doesn't."
The student does not answer, so the professor continues. "He doesn't, does he? My brother was a Christian who died of cancer, even though he prayed to Jesus to heal him. How is this Jesus good? Hmmm? Can you answer that one?"
The student remains silent.
"No, you can't, can you?" the professor says. He takes a sip of water from a glass on his desk to give the student time to relax.
"Let's start again, young fella. Is God good?"
"Er...yes," the student says.
"Is Satan good?"
The student doesn't hesitate on this one. "No."
"Then where does Satan come from?"
The student falters. "From God"
"That's right. God made Satan, didn't he? Tell me, son. Is there evil in this world?"
"Yes, sir."
"Evil's everywhere, isn't it? And God did make everything, correct?"
"Yes."
"So who created evil?" The professor continued, "If God created everything, then God created evil, since evil exists, and ac cording to the principle that our works define who we are, then God is evil."
Again, the student has no answer.
"Is there sickness? Immorality? Hatred? Ugliness? All these terrible things, do they exist in this world?"
The student squirms on his feet. "Yes."
"So who created them?"
The student does not answer again, so the professor repeats his question.
"Who created them?" There is still no answer. Suddenly the lecturer breaks away to pace in front of the classroom. The class is mesmerized.
"Tell me," he continues onto another student. "Do you believe in Jesus Christ, son?"
The student's voice betrays him and cracks. "Yes, professor, I do."
The old man stops pacing. "Science says you have five senses you use to identify and observe the world around you. Have you ever seen Jesus?"
"No sir. I've never seen Him."
"Then tell us if you've ever heard your Jesus?"
"No, sir, I have not."
"Have you ever felt your Jesus, tasted your Jesus or smelt your Jesus? Have you ever had any sensory perception of Jesus Christ, or God for that matter?"
"No, sir, I'm afraid I haven't."
"Yet you still believe in him?"
"Yes."
"According to the rules of empirical, testable, demonstrable protocol, science says your God doesn't exist. What do you say to that, son?"
"Nothing," the student replies. "I only have my faith."
"Yes, faith," the professor repeats. "And that is the problem science has with God. There is no evidence, only faith."
The student stands quietly for a moment, before asking a question of His own. "Professor, is there such thing as heat?"
"Yes," the professor replies. "There's heat."
"And is there such a thing as cold?"
"Yes, son, there's cold too."
"No sir, there isn't."
The professor turns to face the student, obviously interested. The room suddenly becomes very quiet. The student begins to explain. "You can have lots of heat, even more heat, super-heat, mega-heat, unlimited heat, white heat, a little heat or no heat, but we don't have anything called 'cold'. We can hit up to 458 degrees below zero, which is no heat, but we can't go any further after that. There is no such thing as cold; otherwise we would be able to go colder than the lowest -458 degrees."
"Every body or object is susceptible to study when it has or transmits energy, and heat is what makes a body or matter have or transmit energy. Absolute zero (-458 F) is the total absence of heat. You see, sir, cold is only a word we use to describe the absence of heat. We cannot measure cold. Heat we can measure in thermal units because heat is energy. Cold is not the opposite of heat, sir, just the absence of it."
Silence across the room. A pen drops somewhere in the classroom, sounding like a hammer.
"What about darkness, professor. Is there such a thing as darkness?"
"Yes," the professor replies without hesitation. "What is night if it isn't darkness?"
"You're wrong again, sir. Darkness is not something; it is the absence of something. You can have low light, normal light, bright light, flashing light, but if you have no light constantly you have nothing and it's called darkness, isn't it?
That's the meaning we use to define the word. "In reality, darkness isn't. If it were, you would be able to make darkness darker, wouldn't you?"
The professor begins to smile at the student in front of him. This will be a good semester. "So what point are you making, young man?"
"Yes, professor. My point is, your philosophical premise is flawed to start with, and so your conclusion must also be flawed."
The professor's f ace cannot hide his surprise this time. "Flawed? Can you explain how?"
"You are working on the premise of duality," the student explains. "You argue that there is life and then there's death; a good God and a bad God. You are viewing the concept of God as something finite, something we can measure. Sir, science can't even explain a thought."
"It uses electricity and magnetism, but has never seen, much less fully understood either one. To view death as the opposite of life is to be ignorant of the fact that death cannot exist as a substantive thing.
Death is not the opposite of life, just the absence of it."
"Now tell me, professor. Do you teach your students that they evolved from monkey?"
"If you are referring to the natural evolutionary process, young man, yes, of course I do."
"Have you ever observed evolution with your own eyes, sir?"
The professor begins to shake his head, still smiling, as he realizes where the argument is going. A very good semester, indeed.
"Since no one has ever observed the process of evolution at work and cannot even prove that this process is an on-going endeavor, are you not teaching your opinion, sir? Are you now not a scientist, but a preacher?"
The class is in uproar. The student remains silent until the commotion has subsided.
"To continue the point you were making earlier to the other student, let me give you an example of what I mean."
The student looks around the room. "Is there anyone in the class who has ever seen the professor's brain?" The class breaks out into laughter.
"Is there anyone here who has ever heard the professor's brain, felt the professor's brain, touched or smelt the professor's brain? No one appears to have done so. So, according to the established rules of empirical, stable, demonstrable protocol, science says that you have no brain, with all due respect, sir."
"So if science says you have no brain, how can we trust your lectures, sir?"
Now the room is silent. The professor just stares at the student, his face unreadable.
Finally, after what seems an eternity, the old man answers. "I guess you'll have to take them on faith."
"Now, you accept that there is faith, and, in fact, faith exists with life," the student continues. "Now, sir, is there such a thing as evil?"
Now uncertain, the professor responds, "Of course, there is. We see it everyday. It is in the daily example of man's inhumanity to man. It is in the multitude of crime and violence everywhere in the world. These manifestations are nothing else but evil."
To this the student replied, "Evil does not exist sir, or at least it does not exist unto itself. Evil is simply the absence of God. It is just like darkness and cold, a word that man has created to describe the absence of God. God did not create evil. Evil is the result of what happens when man does not have God's love present in his heart. It's like the cold that comes when there is no heat or the darkness that comes when there is no light."
The professor sat down.
The greatest obstacle in life is yourself.
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I am not sure the OP DUmmie actually got the point of the quoted material. As I read it, the real point of the passage was that calling an opponent "Evil" was not sound because it is a gross oversimplification, which once invoked precludes pursuing complex or tailored resolutions leading to some mutual accommodation, but that it is unfortunately inherent in human nature to reduce an opposing force to such simple terms.
That's a long damned way from saying terrorists "Aren't evil," it is simply saying that it isn't effective to view them in propagandistic terms. There is some sense in that interpretation, particularly if simply crushing your opponent's entire population into a Paleolithic state is not really an option. IMHO crushing your opponents into the Old Stone Age still has a lot going for it, as long as you don't have to occupy the ground they were on afterwards.
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To deny the existence of evil is to deny that people a free-thinking moral beings. It reduces them to mere flotsam buffeted about by their environment. It robs them of their dignity to be treated like naive hidren reaching for the cooking jar before dinner.
Of course the person making the claim reseres absolute moral certainty for himself, breeding arrogance and self-satisifaction.
Yep...it sounds like DU.