The Conservative Cave
Current Events => Politics => Topic started by: flaja on December 25, 2008, 09:48:30 AM
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What is it that is inherently conservative about:
Low taxes
Low government spending
A balanced budget
Strong military
Opposition to the UN
Opposition to foreign aid
Welfare spending
Opposition to foreign alliances
Opposition to central economic planning (from government while such planning from Wall Street is OK?)
What is it that is inherently liberal about:
High taxes
High government spending
Weak military
Abortion
Marriage for sodomites
Support of the UN
Support for foreign aid
Welfare spending
Support for central economic planning
Do some issues go beyond left and right? How do the concepts of right and wrong play into socio-economic-political ideology?
What is the ultimate purpose for conservatism and liberalism?
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I doubt you'll be happy here, and responding to you point by point would waste a lot more of my life than I want to spend on it, especially since your parentheticals and certain nuances indicate you just want to quibble and aren't actually interested in learning anything.
However....
The two concepts are not so much end states as they are fundamental philosophies.
The central idea of Conservatism is that things are working tolerably well under traditional forms and while they may need periodic tweaks or adjustments, or even major intervention to meet truly extraordinary events, the system is working tolerably well. Now, conceptions about what those traditions and founding ideas actually are, or what parts might need tweaking, vary considerably from person to person, so there is not necessarily a unifying single social issue that all Conservatives everywhere would nod and say, yep, that captures it.
The central idea of Liberalism is that traditional forms have failed dismally to accomplish what they are supposed to (and ideals of what they are supposed to accomplish are highly diffuse and variegated in the Liberal mind), and the only means to correct this is through massive social change in societal institutions (and what those changes should be is another wildly divergent field, ranging from prohibiting corporal punishment of children to killing off half the Earth's population to 'Save the planet').
Neither set is monolithically devoted to the programs, ideas, and objectives you ascribe to them.
And that's all I have to say about that.
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I doubt you'll be happy here, and responding to you point by point would waste a lot more of my life than I want to spend on it, especially since your parentheticals and certain nuances indicate you just want to quibble and aren't actually interested in learning anything.
In other words this is just a yes man society and not a place for the free and open exchange of ideas. You either cannot defend what you say you believe, or you are afraid to try.
The central idea of Conservatism is that things are working tolerably well under traditional forms and while they may need periodic tweaks or adjustments, or even major intervention to meet truly extraordinary events, the system is working tolerably well.
Then why do so many self-proclaimed conservatives on the net don’t see anything wrong with things like Sodomite marriage when traditional heterosexual and monogamous marriage has served Western Civilization for thousands of years?
Now, conceptions about what those traditions and founding ideas actually are, or what parts might need tweaking, vary considerably from person to person, so there is not necessarily a unifying single social issue that all Conservatives everywhere would nod and say, yep, that captures it.
So the individual is supreme and doesn’t have to answer to society. Isn’t this liberalism or libertarianism rather than conservatism?
The central idea of Liberalism is that traditional forms have failed dismally to accomplish what they are supposed to
And what are the traditional forms supposed to have accomplished? If we cannot agree on this point, then nobody ever expected the traditional forms to do anything so there is no reason for conservatives to uphold them.
Neither set is monolithically devoted to the programs, ideas, and objectives you ascribe to them.
I made this post in light of the diversity of opinion one encounters on the net. I want to know what the arbiters of conservatism and liberalism are. If it is up to every individual to decide what his ideology is, then no ideology can legitimately exist due to the diversity that results. But politicians, the news media, internet posters and everyone in general throw the terms liberal and conservative around anyway.
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In other words this is just a yes man society and not a place for the free and open exchange of ideas. You either cannot defend what you say you believe, or you are afraid to try.
Maybe you should try to participate in other, active discussions before throwing around accusations about a site you just joined.
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In other words this is just a yes man society and not a place for the free and open exchange of ideas. You either cannot defend what you say you believe, or you are afraid to try.
We have a moderator who is a Democrat who voted for Obama, and another who is a Pro-Choice Atheist.
There is no "yes" society here, and it would probably serve you a little better to observe this place before you start shooting your mouth off about it.
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What is it that is inherently conservative about:
Low taxes
Low government spending
A balanced budget
Strong military
Opposition to the UN
Opposition to foreign aid
Welfare spending
Opposition to foreign alliances
Opposition to central economic planning (from government while such planning from Wall Street is OK?)
What is it that is inherently liberal about:
High taxes
High government spending
Weak military
Abortion
Marriage for sodomites
Support of the UN
Support for foreign aid
Welfare spending
Support for central economic planning
Do some issues go beyond left and right? How do the concepts of right and wrong play into socio-economic-political ideology?
What is the ultimate purpose for conservatism and liberalism?
Your premise is fundamentally flawed.
I don't address stereotypes. Not even ones who post messages.
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I recommend shunning.
Anyone with such a complete inability to put together a cogent thought isn't even worth banning, unless it becomes abusive.
Lets not waste our time on this primitive.
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Maybe you should try to participate in other, active discussions before throwing around accusations about a site you just joined.
Then why did DAT say that I wouldn’t be happy here before he made any attempt to ascertain what I believe? He automatically assumed that the posters here would not agree with me. He saw me as an outsider and essentially attacked me; he didn’t want to risk the presence of anyone who wouldn’t be his yes man.
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We have a moderator who is a Democrat who voted for Obama, and another who is a Pro-Choice Atheist.
And this is a conservative board?
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Your premise is fundamentally flawed.
I don't address stereotypes. Not even ones who post messages.
Then tell me why have the news media and assorted politicians taken something like low taxes as the conservative position? Why couldn’t low taxes be the liberal position?
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I want to know what the arbiters of conservatism and liberalism are.
Great! Have you checked with DU yet? If not, go ahead and post your questions there first, then come back and we'll discuss it.
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Then why did DAT say that I wouldn’t be happy here before he made any attempt to ascertain what I believe? He automatically assumed that the posters here would not agree with me. He saw me as an outsider and essentially attacked me; he didn’t want to risk the presence of anyone who wouldn’t be his yes man.
It seems your reputation has preceeded you.
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And this is a conservative board?
Yes it is and a pretty happy one.
Both are valuable members and good people.
What of it?
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Ladies and gentlemen, I think we may have a DU mole who is unwilling to out them self and what their name is on the other board. OTOH, I could be way off base.
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Ladies and gentlemen, I think we may have a DU mole who is unwilling to out them self and what their name is on the other board. OTOH, I could be way off base.
Not a mole at all. He/she posted his/her stupidity (thus DU quals) on the OP.
Shun folks -- shun.
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Ladies and gentlemen, I think we may have a DU mole who is unwilling to out them self and what their name is on the other board. OTOH, I could be way off base.
Nope, not a DUmmie. He's been ran into before by other members on other forums.
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Nope, not a DUmmie. He's been ran into before by other members on other forums.
So what of it? I ask a simple question and none of you so-called conservatives can give me a simple, straightforward answer. All you can offer is hostility and belligerence for someone just they might disagree with you.
As I suspected it would be, this board just another left wing/libertarian clique that is a waste of time.
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So what of it? I ask a simple question and none of you so-called conservatives can give me a simple, straightforward answer. All you can offer is hostility and belligerence for someone just they might disagree with you.
As I suspected it would be, this board just another left wing/libertarian clique that is a waste of time.
If we don't meet your rigorous standards, you are free to leave. The internet is a big place... don't let us cramp your style.
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So what of it? I ask a simple question and none of you so-called conservatives can give me a simple, straightforward answer. All you can offer is hostility and belligerence for someone just they might disagree with you.
As I suspected it would be, this board just another left wing/libertarian clique that is a waste of time.
Then why stay? The door is that way.
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So what of it? I ask a simple question and none of you so-called conservatives can give me a simple, straightforward answer. All you can offer is hostility and belligerence for someone just they might disagree with you.
As I suspected it would be, this board just another left wing/libertarian clique that is a waste of time.
Because your question is based on an invalid premise. We won't answer "when did you stop beating your wife" questions.
And the nature of your premise shows you are an idiot and a fool. And we don't suffer fools lightly here.
But feel free to leave. Or post a real question.
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And this is a conservative board?
Oh your priceless. You get pissy and call us all "Yes" men, and when you find out that there are actually quite a diversity of idea's here you attack that.
It sounds to me like your the type who want that lock-step hardcore conservative yes man forum. Well your not going to find it here. Your free to post your thoughts and idea's here, but expect people to disagree with you.
But if you don't like idea, then don't feel like your hurting anyones feelings by leaving.
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Oh your priceless. You get pissy and call us all "Yes" men, and when you find out that there are actually quite a diversity of idea's here you attack that.
It sounds to me like your the type who want that lock-step hardcore conservative yes man forum. Well your not going to find it here. Your free to post your thoughts and idea's here, but expect people to disagree with you.
But if you don't like idea, then don't feel like your hurting anyones feelings by leaving.
He/she is a troll or just too stupid for words. Probably both.
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Then why do so many self-proclaimed conservatives on the net don’t see anything wrong with things like Sodomite marriage when traditional heterosexual and monogamous marriage has served Western Civilization for thousands of years?
You're mistaking Conservatives with RINO's. And the one or two so called Conservatives that I've seen on a board like this that DID claim to support gay marriage were generally shouted down on the topic by the large majority of the board.
Perhaps the problem is that you are stumbling upon Libertarian/Ron Paul forums and not true conservative sites.
And this is a conservative board?
Yes very much so. And if you'd quit looking down your nose at the rest of us you'd realize that.
As I suspected it would be, this board just another left wing/libertarian clique that is a waste of time.
And you're an arrogant pri*k You 100%'er types are the reason that Obama is becoming the 44th President. Not the rest of us voting for Sarah Palin.
Anyone who doesn't subscribe to your John Birch Society views of what pass for "Conservatism" are automatically left wing. :whatever: Give me a friggin break. I've seen your type before. You're the troll in the Rush Limbaugh threads calling him a sellout...the idiot in the Sunday Morning Talk Show thread at FR calling all of us "life long John McCain supporters" and scoffing at the fact that we were puling the lever for not because we liked him but because Obama taking the oath was a far worse prospect.
You fancy yourself the "Ultimate Conservative"...and everyone else just mere pretenders.
It's a good thing you think so highly of yourself.
You're the only one.
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Hey flaja quick question.
Do you view Ronald Reagan as a "real Conservative"?
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Then tell me why have the news media and assorted politicians taken something like low taxes as the conservative position? Why couldn’t low taxes be the liberal position?
Show me one liberal that advocates lower taxes. ...then we'll talk.
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BTW, while I do not support gay marriage, and do support civil unions, I could really care less about either. The government needs to get OUT of the damn marriage business all together. We NEED the Fair Tax. Screw everything else. With the Fair Tax, none of that shit matters anyway. Gays can find their own churches to marry'em and it's not my problem.
Me? I'm a staunch fiscal conservative and a "leave me the **** alone" on everything else.
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The purpose of conservatism is to allow those degraded and wretched folks out of the Democratic Welfare Plantation and into the work force, where they can begin to build true self-esteem and personal wealth...something the Dims will never allow them to have. Free the serfs!!!!!!
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In other words this is just a yes man society and not a place for the free and open exchange of ideas. You either cannot defend what you say you believe, or you are afraid to try.
Actually it's because I don't really give a **** what you think, and what I posted represented the largest investment of my own valuable time as I cared to make, in what had every indication of being a troll post in the first place. So FOAD, troll.
:hammer:
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So what of it? I ask a simple question and none of you so-called conservatives can give me a simple, straightforward answer. All you can offer is hostility and belligerence for someone just they might disagree with you.
As I suspected it would be, this board just another left wing/libertarian clique that is a waste of time.
[youtube=425,350]D1NAwlepnSs[/youtube]
Hat tip to FD.
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Not a mole at all. He/she posted his/her stupidity (thus DU quals) on the OP.
Shun folks -- shun.
Shun who? Or what? I got the gain all the way up, the filters off, and nothin' on my radar. Can somebody tell me what I'm missing?
:uhsure: :evillaugh:
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Dollars to donuts says this guy is from the Ron Paul forums.
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Dollars to donuts says this guy is from the Ron Paul forums.
Nopers.
This guy is some disabled gink who does NOTHING but sit at his computer compulsively posting at message boards.
His MO is to be the true arbitor of conservatism and to continually express his dismay and disgust at the untermenshen who claim to be conservatives but lack his sheer genius and clarity of thought and morals.
In short he is a professional asshole.
Which is why he has been banned from more political and religious forums than you or I will ever VIST in our lifetimes.
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So what of it? I ask a simple question and none of you so-called conservatives can give me a simple, straightforward answer. All you can offer is hostility and belligerence for someone just they might disagree with you.
As I suspected it would be, this board just another left wing/libertarian clique that is a waste of time.
Libertarian? where?
Chris made a suggestion that you start posting in individual threads to engage members in conversation/debate (which I enjoy doing very much). If you would rather go the attention-whore-look-at-me route by the once and done OP you made here then you really had no intention on actually debating to begin with.
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Nopers.
This guy is some disabled gink who does NOTHING but sit at his computer compulsively posting at message boards.
What does that mean exactly?
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Libertarian? where?
There's actually quite a few on this board
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What does that mean exactly?
I mean he is disabled and apparantly never leaves his house since he spends so much time on the interwebs telling us all what bleeding heart commies we are... Hence the defining of his personality as a gink.
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OK, I'll bite...but only 1 bite at a time; not that laundry list of
We've been asked what is inherently "conservative" about low taxes and what is "liberal" about high taxes.
As far as tax rates are concerned the terms onservative and liberal are just labels and the marinal tax rate is a symptom of a the philosophical principles behind each label. I'm not going to discuss the etymology.
But tax rates are a symptom of the intents of each movement.
As a conservative I believe government as a collective effort to protect each individual. No man wants his home robbed or his lands invaded so we pool our communal resources to give ourselves police officers and soldiers. Of course humans are inexhaustably complex and society tends to take on the image of its creators. Police officers are soon accompanied by judges, jailers...and politicians to decide what constitutes the laws that are guarded by the police, judges and jailers. The soldier is soon joined by sailors, generals and--sigh--defense contractors.
Yet for all this complexity the idea is a minimalist one. These institutions are maintained only because they are the least amount needed to secure the greatest individual liberty. The man that an close up his shop after a fair day's business to return to his home to kiss his wife and children as he puts his feet up before the fire is the happiest man and all the accoutriments of government serve no functions except to ensure that man remains unmolested.
For him to remain unmolested he must give-up a portion of his shop's daily receipts in the form of taxes to maintain the officers and soldiers that keep him and his family and property safe. But the government is not some alien benefactor, it is an extension of that man because as a man of rights he has a voice in that government. He may use his voice to add weight to the debates about how many soldiers should be levied, how much they shall be paid, how they shall be equipped and most importantly of all when they shall fight in his name.
Still, the police and soldiers are there to defend his well-being and as such it defeats his purpose to make them tyrants or consumers of that well-being. As a natural outgrowth he keeps them well-provisioned to defend him but limits their numbers,wages and duties, choosing instead to reserve the greater share of responsibilities to himself.
Hence the low tax rates.
From what I observe of liberalism...
...I shall be charitable and say it is based on the desire to do the most good for the most people and it takes no embarrassment at the idea of using government not to protect but to provide. One poor man seems to impoverish us all so all must be clothed, housed, educated, fed and comforted not through personal efforts but through the contributions of the greater whole to each individual. They end to cite historic abuses--both real and imagined--to accumulate as many repsonsibilities as possible to their chosen appartus. If inequalities in education can be demonstrated in any place at any time than all educational institutions must be taken under wing. Each new inequality reported entails a broader expansion of the effort to regulate and distribute the goods and services of the presumed offending institution.
Hence the higher tax rates.
What are the good and ill of each ideal? That's another discussion.
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asdf, let's be careful of the stereotyping. I'm one of those "disabled ginks"..... ;)
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asdf, let's be careful of the stereotyping. I'm one of those "disabled ginks"..... ;)
We don't hold your mental condition against ya Thor.
:tongue:
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asdf, let's be careful of the stereotyping. I'm one of those "disabled ginks"..... ;)
Since when did being an ex-Squid amount to being a disability? :fuelfire:
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Since when did being an ex-Squid amount to being a disability? :fuelfire:
When hasn't it?
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When hasn't it?
OUCH!
:-)
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Just get real PC and call him a "Gink who happens to be differently-abled."
:tongue:
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asdf, let's be careful of the stereotyping. I'm one of those "disabled ginks"..... ;)
I was merely observing that he was disabled and calling him a gink.
Perhaps I could have phrased that better by calling him a disabled person who is also an intellectual primadonna a-hole.
I will be more careful with my broad brush in the future. :-)
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When hasn't it?
Does it burn your ass that we "disabled" make rate at a pace that makes your climb through the ranks look glacial in comparison? I know a probably STILL E-4 AP who would think so. Maybe it was my baby-faced good looks when sitting in the Top 4 Club at Hickham which made him jealous and had him threaten to throw me out of the "wrong" club until I showed him my ID (I had just made E-6 in 6 years).
Oh, and TRG--three days and he still hasn't answered your question. I think that's one more bit of confirmation of his trolling. Good catch.
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Does it burn your ass that we "disabled" make rate at a pace that makes your climb through the ranks look glacial in comparison? I know a probably STILL E-4 AP who would think so. Maybe it was my baby-faced good looks when sitting in the Top 4 Club at Hickham which made him jealous and had him threaten to throw me out of the "wrong" club until I showed him my ID (I had just made E-6 in 6 years).
Oh, and TRG--three days and he still hasn't answered your question. I think that's one more bit of confirmation of his trolling. Good catch.
Not at all. Because rank actually has responsibility in the AF before you hit E7.
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Not at all. Because rank actually has responsibility in the AF before you hit E7.
I'll be sure to tell that 21-year old E-4 responsible for a BILLION dollars worth of nuclear reactor plant that he doesn't have any responsibility.
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See? This is why we can't have nice things!
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Oh, and TRG--three days and he still hasn't answered your question. I think that's one more bit of confirmation of his trolling. Good catch.
Thanks. He just comes off as that type. The kind that think Reagan wasn't a conservative. I just wanted to see if he had the guts to answer truthfully or whether he'd tap dance around it.
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See? This is why we can't have nice things!
Thats what happens when you let Sailors in the house. You shoulda seen the stains they left on my carpet in my last home. :fuelfire:
(while I am just joking around, I'm serious, you should see the stains a bunch of Sailors left on the carpets of my last home.)
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Thats what happens when you let Sailors in the house. You shoulda seen the stains they left on my carpet in my last home. :fuelfire:
(while I am just joking around, I'm serious, you should see the stains a bunch of Sailors left on the carpets of my last home.)
I am trying so hard not to make a joke about someone who picks up a bunch of sailors and winds up with tons of wierd stains on his carpet... :-)
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Thats what happens when you let Sailors in the house. You shoulda seen the stains they left on my carpet in my last home. :fuelfire:
(while I am just joking around, I'm serious, you should see the stains a bunch of Sailors left on the carpets of my last home.)
Yep--that's what happens when you like WOMEN.
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I am trying so hard not to make a joke about someone who picks up a bunch of sailors and winds up with tons of wierd stains on his carpet... :-)
Knock yourself out. :tongue:
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Thats what happens when you let Sailors in the house. You shoulda seen the stains they left on my carpet in my last home. :fuelfire:
(while I am just joking around, I'm serious, you should see the stains a bunch of Sailors left on the carpets of my last home.)
Lots of seaman stains? :rotf:
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Does it burn your ass that we "disabled" make rate at a pace that makes your climb through the ranks look glacial in comparison? I know a probably STILL E-4 AP who would think so. Maybe it was my baby-faced good looks when sitting in the Top 4 Club at Hickham which made him jealous and had him threaten to throw me out of the "wrong" club until I showed him my ID (I had just made E-6 in 6 years).
Oh, and TRG--three days and he still hasn't answered your question. I think that's one more bit of confirmation of his trolling. Good catch.
Now Sparky, what did you have to do exactly to make rank so quickly and does that have anything to do with the reason why you are no longer in the military?
:popcorn:
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Now Sparky, what did you have to do exactly to make rank so quickly and does that have anything to do with the reason why you are no longer in the military?
:popcorn:
Same thing I did. Study, learn your job, study some more, stand duty usually on a port/starboard or four section duty................still study. Then that whole learn a job thing and also learn how to be a fireman and cop. Sometimes wondered what my job truly was...........what I did or a fireman. Learn the jobs of all others on the ship so you could step in for them in an emergency. I made E-5 in 2 1/2 years, made E-4 less than 1 1/2 years......missed E-6 by a point, then got out. 6 1/2 years in the Navy, 62 months of sea duty and 31 months underway/deployed.
I was lucky compared to Sparky...............he was on a sub (poor bastard) I just fixed em.............he was a nuke (sharp as a tack, until common sense was needed........then he just nuked it :lmao: ) My god the time they spent onboard prior to making her glow and after (****ing resin discharge :bird:)
I won't even mention the deployments
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Now Sparky, what did you have to do exactly to make rank so quickly and does that have anything to do with the reason why you are no longer in the military?
:popcorn:
Well, I'll let djones in on a little secret--it involves a bit more than "taking the beeper" for a weekend.
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Well, I'll let djones in on a little secret--it involves a bit more than "taking the beeper" for a weekend.
:whatever:
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Well, I'll let djones in on a little secret--it involves a bit more than "taking the beeper" for a weekend.
Damn, the play on words I could go into here.......
:tongue: